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Double dip!

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Double dip!

Post by Adele Carlyon on Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:43 am

First topic message reminder :

And it's all Europe's fault! Well I suppose it makes a change from it being labours fault!
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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 09, 2012 5:28 pm

What the Queen's Speech today tells us is that the Tories are satisfied to have achieved most of what they set out to do, two short years ago.

They have opened up the NHS to competition from (non-medical) Private Equity Capital companies. They have decimated the number of workers employed by the State, increased unemployment to emasculate the working-class, and systematically undermined the Benefits system.

Job done!

The quisling Lib-Dems will now be allowed to have a few crumbs to cover their modesty.

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Re: Double dip!

Post by sickchip on Wed May 09, 2012 5:39 pm

Triple Dip, anybody?
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Stox 16 on Wed May 16, 2012 2:05 am

Mel wrote:Con man Cameron has previously snubbed Hollande. I wonder how the two will get along now? No swift "lightweight" visit to Paris for the usual end licking and I suspect a visit will not be iminent.

Hi Mel
its my guess not very well at all. as Europe is waking up to the fact that its right wing leadership have cocked it all up. Cameron will say there are all wrong but the economic data today shows he is in fact very wrong. as we are in the double dip while Europe is not? while the US has a small growth. says it all yes?
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed May 16, 2012 9:23 am

(blogs.independent.co.uk)

" What do you suppose that chap meant when he said the country had a 'Double Drip' recession...?"
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Stox 16 on Thu May 17, 2012 2:11 am

So after two and a half years of wasted economic management we hear this bankrupt government finally talk about a new economic storm if some of the EU countries are forced to give up trying to pay off German banking debt that Greek banks and government used to borrow from in the first place. So the Greek government is being force to now pay of government and banking debt that will damage the Germen economy rather than there own. As surely lender has the responsibility of the government or the banking leaning that agree to this lending in the first place? However, it appears NOT in the case of poor old Greece.

So gone has this utterly ridiculous and totally unworthy right wing argument that the UK economic woos are somehow a direct result of the last government management of the economy in the build up to the world banking crisis that destroyed all the major world economies and not just that of UK. ( Fact of that can be found in IMF history)

So how totally ironic it is to now hear this bankrupt government now blames the EU crisis in the Euro for our UK’s economy having failed to grow. As who is having a double dip recession? Is this happing in Europe? No… its hear in the UK. So its us here in the UK that is facing the double dip recession not Europe at all… Is the US economy in recession? No… they have some economic growth within the economies.

Well we have now gone almost two and a half years almost with the UK government lying too its own people about the need to cut are national debt, while forgetting to add that the UK government has had no fiscal Growth policy. yet even now, after making the UK economic have a brand new double dip recession of there own making do we hear they will change there weak economic policy that has utterly failed the UK people. NO, its full steam ahead.

I was also quite amused to here today a government minister come on my car radio to state that this bankrupt government has paid off a quarter of the national debt. What he forgot to say was they had be rather busy re-scheduling a great deal of UK national debt? But was I surprised to hear this…No. as lets face it if you have lied how the UK economy was so how mismanage for two and a half years why not go the whole hog and lie how much you have now paid off. Still I am very sure we will hear from Cameron very soon once more as he distorts the economic fact once more.

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Re: Double dip!

Post by witchfinder on Thu May 17, 2012 10:31 am

If only...........

If only the world wide financial crisis had not hit, if only the recession had not ravaged the economies of Europe and the United States, if the credit crunch had not happened.

The UK economy immediately prior to these events had rarely been in better shape - low inflation, low interest rates, low unemployment, the longest period of sustained growth in our history, record investment in health and education, and public borrowing lower than when John Major left office in 1997.

The big big problem was that the British public believed what the tories were saying, that it was all Labours fault, that the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the United States was caused by Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown.
The world-wide banking crash was the fault of New Labour, and when the crisis and subsequent recession hit our shores, it just had to be the fault of the government, they ought to have built a bubble or fire-wall around our economy.

This is what I hate and detest the Conservatives for most, the fact that they purposely and knowingly misled and lied to the public, and further more, they still continue to do so.

The Conservatives had no alternative solution to what Alistair Darling corageously did, their only reaction at the time was to criticise, or as the worlds greatest economist ( Paul Krugman ) said "they had no answer other than to raise the red flag of fiscal panic".

Please come back Alistair Darling and rescue us from these idiots
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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Thu May 17, 2012 12:41 pm

Please come back Alistair Darling and rescue us from these idiots

Though he could be forgiven for saying now,
"You can't get there from here!"
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu May 17, 2012 1:49 pm

(telegraph.co.uk)

" We live in perilous economic times. I have made sure of that..."
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Thu May 17, 2012 1:51 pm

Witchfinder wrote "The big big problem was that the British public believed what the tories were saying, that it was all Labours fault, that the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the United States was caused by Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown.
The world-wide banking crash was the fault of New Labour, and when the crisis and subsequent recession hit our shores, it just had to be the fault of the government, they ought to have built a bubble or fire-wall around our economy.

This is what I hate and detest the Conservatives for most, the fact that they purposely and knowingly misled and lied to the public, and further more, they still continue to do so.

You have hit the nail on the head my friend. What you have said is exactly correct. The bloody gullible voters swollowed the lot hook line and sinker with help from the persistant media press knocking Brown daily.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Thu May 17, 2012 1:52 pm

" We live in perilous economic times. I have made sure of that..."

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy PMSL Phil.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by sickchip on Thu May 17, 2012 2:22 pm

The main problem with trying to 'boost' the economy is there are increasing amounts of people with less and less disposable income - stagnating wages and inflation.

If we don't address wage differentiation - for example have a maximum ratio of 1>10 from bottom wage to top wage - if we don't address that and continue denying more and more people having any spending money than the economy will not recover........no matter what you do, or how much is invested in manufacturing, industry, etc.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Thu May 17, 2012 5:22 pm

There is no shortage of money in the British Economy as a whole. Companies have been stockpiling cash for about two years because Directors find themselves unable to make a meaningful investment decision in such uncertain times.

Once some kind of stability can be established, projects will promptly reappear that provide lucrative employment for everyone wishing to work and within six months everybody will wonder what we could have been worrying about.

But right now things look like getting worse before they get better.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Fri May 18, 2012 11:21 am

It seems these idiots in power refuse to borrow for fear of a bond price collapse and are plunging the UK to stagnation. Borrowing costs are at their lowest to which It is refusing to take advantage of. Not even a minor fiscal boost is being contemplated. They probably think they might be panicking the gilt markets. Cameron is clearly determined to continue with this reckless austerity package which will become more and more damaging to the people and the UK as time passes. This arrogant stubborn streak is not going to bring growth and output, in fact entierly the opposite. Unemployment will not benefit either which will only make the whole matter worse.

The old saying "speculate to accumulate" is being ignored because the whole Idea is not to bother about growth, let the incoming government worry about that, whilst Tory ideology is the priority and we all know what that means.
Crisis or not this lot would have gone down the road of austerity as it ultimately paves the way for generous tax reductions for the wealthy.

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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Fri May 18, 2012 11:30 am

Cameron and Osborne are hoping to benefit from the Eurozone's troubles, but it will take someone brighter than they are to show them how to do it.

Arise, Lord Darling of Musselburgh!
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Fri May 18, 2012 12:23 pm

"Arise, Lord Darling of Musselburgh! " If only!!!

Our one and only saviour OW. The man is a genius.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by tlttf on Sat May 19, 2012 8:43 am

Yep, the closest thing to a chancellor the country had in many a year.

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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Sat May 19, 2012 9:32 am

tlttf wrote:Yep, the closest thing to a chancellor the country had in many a year.

How refreshing.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by tlttf on Sat May 19, 2012 9:41 am

True melly, however he didn't have to try hard to beat the previous one did he.

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Re: Double dip!

Post by Stox 16 on Sat May 19, 2012 7:57 pm

tlttf wrote:Yep, the closest thing to a chancellor the country had in many a year.

That is almost quite astute tittf. then you lose it again. still potentially quite a good post.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Thu May 24, 2012 3:10 pm

Double dip! Even worse than expected. (surprise, surprise)
Camer-con was aware the figs were worse at PM's Questions yesterday, yet he still muttered ("muttered" Smile )" the economy is on the right track"

He certainly clutches at straws hoping the public watching him tell lies will not find him out. He is pathetic as well as arrogant, stubborn, careless, rude, dogmatic, ruthless and a bastard too boot.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Red Cat Woman on Fri May 25, 2012 7:14 am

Mel wrote:Double dip! Even worse than expected. (surprise, surprise)
Camer-con was aware the figs were worse at PM's Questions yesterday, yet he still muttered ("muttered" Smile )" the economy is on the right track"

He certainly clutches at straws hoping the public watching him tell lies will not find him out. He is pathetic as well as arrogant, stubborn, careless, rude, dogmatic, ruthless and a bastard too boot.

How true you are Mel. what's more he is just lost in a sea of lies. as what has finally got to him is that just about everything ED Balls has said in the past two years has turned out to be true Mel. all this after Cameron has spent all this time rubbishing him for saying it. how utterly silly Cameron looked yesterday Mel
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Fri May 25, 2012 8:28 am

Hello Red,
Indeed the con man looked "utterly silly" at the dispatch box.
I really believe he is not bothered about how he is seen, what he says, how he acts. Nor is he bothered about growth in the economy as long as he and his stupid little twerp Gigeon can continue to take from the masses and especially those who are not able to defend themselves such as the sick and impoverished and offer the proceeds to his wealthy friends.

Nothing will stop this Tory express train except a vote of no confidence. Bring it on.
As far as "we are all in it together" yes indeed the Tory front bench are as they back the two con men knowing full well what they are up to. Not surprising I suppose as nearly all of them are multi millionairs.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Red Cat Woman on Wed May 30, 2012 8:03 pm

Mel wrote:Hello Red,
Indeed the con man looked "utterly silly" at the dispatch box.
I really believe he is not bothered about how he is seen, what he says, how he acts. Nor is he bothered about growth in the economy as long as he and his stupid little twerp Gigeon can continue to take from the masses and especially those who are not able to defend themselves such as the sick and impoverished and offer the proceeds to his wealthy friends.

Nothing will stop this Tory express train except a vote of no confidence. Bring it on.
As far as "we are all in it together" yes indeed the Tory front bench are as they back the two con men knowing full well what they are up to. Not surprising I suppose as nearly all of them are multi millionairs.

Hello Mel
he sure did look very silly at the dispatch box. what's more your 100% right he does not care at all.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:07 pm

The latest UK Markit/CIPS survey, where a reading above 50 represents growth, fell to 45.9 in May from 50.2 the previous month, well below City hopes for a figure just below 50. It is the second-steepest fall in the survey's 20-year history and came as new orders dropped at the fastest pace since March 2009.

Markit said the collapse reflected not just the crisis in the eurozone but the increasing weakness of the UK domestic market, with overall order books shrinking at a faster rate than export orders. It found that manufacturers were struggling to replace orders from Europe with work elsewhere, such as the US and Asia.
More on link.

http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2012/jun/manufacturing-production.cfm

Plan B Gideon, or have you not woken up yet?
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Re: Double dip!

Post by bobby on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:24 pm

Hello Emma. I dont know if you kmew the orrigin of the photo in your post, but here is the orriginal, and its of the KRAY Twins.




The photo was taken sometime in the 6o's by David Bailey. In comparison to.



These two, The Krays where thoroughly decent chaps
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Re: Double dip!

Post by astra on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:28 pm

Someone said on another thread that Blair did good for the North by getting the Telephone companies here. 2 years ago, Garlands closed, all contracts with Vodaphone etc ended. Staff did not get 90 days notice and it took far more than 90 days to get moneys to clear families financial mess. More call centres are on notice, work going to wales and Scotland (and overseas)
OK I'm getting there.


Today, the day after the announcement of the Vickers factory closing, the Royal Ordnance works in Birtley looks on the edge of the precipice.

The suits with the big money have ever been running this country (well, since 1979) as if we all live inside the M25 ring. Londing being the hub of the wheel as it were.

We are now finding that without proper maintenance, the tyres are coming off of the wheel, the axle (if you like) is looking pretty desperate and pretty soon the vehicle is going to cough and splutter to a halt!

Will someone please tell Gideon that the IMF, the OCD and the Eurobank, although we pay membership fees to them are NOT the RAC or the AA
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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:38 pm

It's an ill wind that blows no good. Whilst Gideon Osborne is bemoaning the effect of the Eurozone's problems, he pretends to be unaware of the fact that millions of Euro investors are looking for a safe haven.

The British Government could obtain ten year loans at 1.5% if it chose to do so, and with that money regenerate British Trade. Why don't they?
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:28 am

"Why don't they?"
Because they have tried to hoodwink the public into thinking that "the terrible debt left by New Labour" requires severe austerity measures instead of more borrowing. The reasoning behind this is to be able to cut cut cut everything that assists those at the middle and the bottom. This is and will always be Tory ideology to reverse Labours efforts to help the working man.
Remember, the creation of high unemployment means an abundance of cheap labour which is ideal for the wealthy Tory business people.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Mel on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:43 am

I expect Gideon is not happy with the news that Spain has gone for the bailout. Thus his excuse for the UK's lack of growth is back in his court and all due to his fast and unessesary austerity measures.

No sign of a "plan B" of course, the plan A in place is there to stay with stubborness and arrogance because it is working not for the country, not even for the next election of the Tory party. It is designed purely and simply for the benefit of the wealthy along with the privatisaion of the NHS and anything else in sight.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:11 am

Mel wrote:I expect Gideon is not happy with the news that Spain has gone for the bailout. Thus his excuse for the UK's lack of growth is back in his court and all due to his fast and unessesary austerity measures.

No sign of a "plan B" of course, the plan A in place is there to stay with stubborness and arrogance because it is working not for the country, not even for the next election of the Tory party. It is designed purely and simply for the benefit of the wealthy along with the privatisaion of the NHS and anything else in sight.


Hello Mel
The jury has returned its verdict on appropriate macroeconomic policies for the worst downturn in 100 years. It comes as no surprise to me that austerity in the UK has failed miserably, especially because the US in the 1930s was always the main precedent.

The US and the UK had quite different responses to the global downturn; one is doing fine, the other isn't. Both have their own currency and central banks and have slashed interest rates to the lower bound; both have conducted huge amounts of quantitative easing. The UK tightened, the US didn't - and from there, two roads diverged.

The recent publication of a slew of economic data finally closed the case. US GDP growth for the fourth quarter of 2011 was +0.7 per cent, compared to -0.2 per cent for the UK. The unemployment situation is improving in the US and getting worse in the UK, as is consumer and business confidence and consumer spending. Manufacturing employment is growing in the US and as President Obama made clear in his State of the Union address, the car industry in Detroit is growing again. Manufacturing employment in the UK is down 25,000 on the year. The CBI industrial trends fell, as did the distributive trades surveys, which painted a less-than-rosy picture of where the retail sector is heading in 2012.

The bottom line is Gideon I believe has no plan A or B or any real economic policy of any note. I believe its all Smoke and Mirrors with Gideon now. in fact its all about buying time with the hope that some growth comes along by itself. in the mean time Gideon is using some very Poor excuses.

As UK GDP data for each quarter from the beginning of 2008. has been estimated or revised regularly, I also include the initial estimate produced by the Office for National Statistics, alongside the most up-to-date estimates. Bear in mind that, on average, the estimates have been revised downwards over the recession. It is clear that the recession was deeper than first thought by the Tory Party and Gideon. as output fall by 7.4 per cent, and it started earlier and finished sooner.

It is an interesting point Mel. That justification for government borrowing is to boost aggregate demand in a recession to stimulate economic growth. In a recession, when many people are losing their jobs, government spending is a way to limit the impact of a recession. If you withdraw unemployment benefits (e.g. 1931) or cut spending then people respond by spending less, leading to lower economic growth and increased inequality. However, it seems that Gideon does not believe this at all nor does he seem to read or understand his own economic data. It is argued in a liquidity trap demand for saving is high, even at low interest rates. In this case, the government can borrow more without pushing up interest rates. This has been the case in the UK and US since 2008. Despite rapid increase in levels of government debt, bond yields have fallen - as you would expect in a liquidity trap.

Countries which have pursued austerity policies aggressively have seen a fall in the rate of economic growth, leading to higher unemployment and lower tax revenues. Ironically, austerity measures have often failed to reassure markets and reduce debt to GDP ratios. (e.g. Portugal, Greece, Spain) all of which Ed Balls pointed out in 2011 Mel. Yet this was met with mocking by Cameron and Gideon at the time. So if I was a Tory party sycophant on here. I would be very careful about attacking someone who so far has a better record of being more right than wrong about the UK economy myself.

I believe the government reduced spending at the wrong time (economy still in recession). They should have targeted economic recovery has highest priority, and pursued debt reduction over a longer time frame. As Ed Balls has pointed out over the last two wasted years.

A liquidity trap occurs when low / zero interest rates fail to stimulate consumer spending and monetary policy becomes ineffective. In this situation, an increase in the money supply could fail to increase spending because interest rates can't fall further so it was thought. yet its only now that the IMF has even talked about trying to drop UK interest rates further?

its my guess that we will see the bank of England cut the interest rates by half a per cent while doing about £50 billion more QE in July 2012. However Mel, During the past eighteen months, a callow and arrogant Chancellor of the Exchequer, empowered by a hands-off Prime Minister and backed by the bulk of the country’s financial and media establishment, has needlessly brought Britain to another recession by embracing draconian spending cuts that hark back to the early nineteen-thirties. Rather than changing course and taking measures to boost growth, the Conservative-Liberal coalition is doubling down on austerity. So we will just go on sinking down even more. but than this is Gideon's only economic policy and he believes that somehow it just has to come good no matter what.




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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:48 am

A common sight all along the Mediterranean coast of North Africa is the man asleep under a tree. That's a reflex response to a grumbling empty stomach and no work, which Gideon Osborne seems to think will be the solution for us too. Curious.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:43 am

oftenwrong wrote:A common sight all along the Mediterranean coast of North Africa is the man asleep under a tree. That's a reflex response to a grumbling empty stomach and no work, which Gideon Osborne seems to think will be the solution for us too. Curious.

Well OW, I have written about economic matters for well over 20 years now and have written more about this last two years than all the other 18 years. I find his whole economic policy a utter mess. its not even a economic policy in its own right. in fact what he is doing or not doing has no base within any economic policy I know of OW. However, Gideon is at it again tonight. now he is chucking more money at the banks in what he thinks will stimulate economic growth. Hells Bells, its not the bloody banks that need stimulating but the economy in General. as its people and companies that are not spending and that is a deep worrying. The banks have already had £350 billion pound in QE and its failed to move the economy at all. yet he still does not get it. what on earth does he think they will do with all this more money that they could do right now if they wished too? what will he do next if they just take the money and sit on that as well.

This is economic madness at it right wing best. i DO HOPE KNOW TORY EVER TELLS ME THEY KNOW HOW TO RUN THE UK ECONOMY EVER AGAIN. AS THEY HAVE NO IDEA AT ALL ON ECONOMICS
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:29 am

blueturando wrote:
deciding whether eat a spoonful of shite or a spoonful of shite
.

I couldn't have put it better myself Sickchip....At the moment its a case of same idiots, same bull sh*t, same useless policies......but pick a colour my friend, blue, red or yellow...or a sickly combo of two or more.

It wouldn't matter if the Tories or Labour had a 90% showing in the polls...it's still a spoonful of shite



Well this is a very sad post indeed. as why bother posting on a website about politics if you really feel this way Blue? You say that Labour's currant economic policy is the same as the Tories? well I am very happy to debate this point with you. as I cannot see how they are the same at all. in fact on Growth and the national debt and how this should be done I find there are a great deal of difference. However, it seems to me that your more than happy to draw very weak simplification of the two main parties economic policy at this time. but one thing I have learnt over the years Blue is never confuse media reports or language with both parties having similar policies. if you do, you will be only fooling yourself.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:10 am

" Gideon is at it again tonight. now he is chucking more money at the banks in what he thinks will stimulate economic growth. Hells Bells, its not the bloody banks that need stimulating...."

Surely you can't be suggesting that we are not being given the full story by our esteemed Chancellor?
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Re: Double dip!

Post by astradt1 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:29 am

There only ever seems to one effect of this government giving even more money to banks and that is the value of bank shares goes up........

I like the way these are described as 'loans' yet only a couple of weeks ago we had some of the banks proclaim that they had paid back the 2009 loans to the government and yet here we are again banks getting access to more loans.......What was it Cameron kept saying about paying off credit cards?....

£140,000,000,000 divided between every person in Britain would work out at about £2333 person.....I wonder what that would do for business if it was used to buy their goods?

I know that this sounds simplistic but why is this government purely intent on letting banks have access to more money while not investing in major real projects which would create jobs and not just number on a bank spreadsheet?

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Re: Double dip!

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:40 pm

ASTRAD1 QUOTE.
I know that this sounds simplistic but why is this government purely intent on letting banks have access to more money while not investing in major real projects which would create jobs and not just number on a bank spreadsheet?

As I understand it the money is to be used by the Banks for cheap loans to businesses. Good idea - IF it ever gets where its needed.
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trevorw2539

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Re: Double dip!

Post by astradt1 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:40 pm

As I understand it the money is to be used by the Banks for cheap loans to businesses. Good idea - IF it ever gets where its needed.

As you say a good idea for cheap loans to businesses but if that is what the money is really for why has the share price for banks gone up? surely if they only have access to money for 'cheap' loans there will be little room for 'profits' or is the money really just going in to the merry-go-round of banks lending to each other at the expense of the tax payer...yet again?
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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:23 pm

"Sometimes I can believe six impossible things before breakfast!"

The Red Queen, Alice though the looking-glass.
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Re: Double dip!

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:32 pm

astradt1 wrote:
As I understand it the money is to be used by the Banks for cheap loans to businesses. Good idea - IF it ever gets where its needed.

As you say a good idea for cheap loans to businesses but if that is what the money is really for why has the share price for banks gone up? surely if they only have access to money for 'cheap' loans there will be little room for 'profits' or is the money really just going in to the merry-go-round of banks lending to each other at the expense of the tax payer...yet again?

Aren't we being a little sceptical. After all the Banks always look after our money. Don't they? Shocked
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Re: Double dip!

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:37 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:

Aren't we being a little sceptical. After all the Banks always look after our money. Don't they? Shocked

Of course they do. As if it were their own!
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Re: Double dip!

Post by Red Cat Woman on Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:49 am

bobby wrote:Hello Emma. I dont know if you kmew the orrigin of the photo in your post, but here is the orriginal, and its of the KRAY Twins.




The photo was taken sometime in the 6o's by David Bailey. In comparison to.



These two, The Krays where thoroughly decent chaps

I did not know that at all Bobby, but can see it now. its great how people can now change pix like this in my view
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Re: Double dip!

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