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Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

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Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Papaumau on Tue May 01, 2012 12:52 pm


As many will already have noted, church leaders around the world are now complaining that what with the dwindling congregations in their churches, temples and synagogues it appears that Humanism and Secularism are becoming threats to their continued existence.

As the years go by and fundamentalist religious beliefs seems to generate more and more hatred between the churches and the faiths I firmly believe that many thousands or even millions of people are now becoming so sick of the direction that these theisms are taking them and they are now beginning to rise up against the hard-line dogma attached to such faiths.

With this argument in mind I have been thinking that those that do not move away from this unhealthy situation are either so brain-washed and indoctrinated by their individual religions that they are now finding that they cannot do without that crutch if they want to survive life on earth as it is at the moment.

My final question on this subject is: Is religion a vital and undeniable support-system for weak and unfulfilled humans or is it a burden and a threat to life as the same weak and unfulfilled humans cannot survive without it ?

Regards....

Papa....
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by sickchip on Tue May 01, 2012 2:17 pm

Religion is primarily for inhibited middle classes in the west, or very poor people in poorer countries.

Everybody else worships money, celebrity, or technology.


....not a fact - just food for thought.

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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Tue May 01, 2012 4:48 pm

I don't begrugde anyone whatever crutch they may need to help them through life and difficult times. I do begrudge them trying to tell me just how lacking my life is because I don't believe in God! I'm fine, honestly Razz
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Guest on Tue May 01, 2012 5:09 pm


“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations [all ethnicities], baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all whatsoever that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world’” (Matthew 28:18-20).

Jesus commands each disciple, or follower, to teach all ethnicities to observe all things whatsoever that Jesus has commanded. To prevent Jesus’ followers from teaching all ethnicities to observe all things whatsoever that Jesus has commanded is to deny free exercise of religion to Jesus’ followers.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Tue May 01, 2012 5:25 pm

When I start poking a soddin stick in bible basher's faces and telling THEM how lacking THEY are for following a fairytale, well, that's when I'll find it acceptable for them to tell ME that I'm lacking in some way!

I know too many so called men and women of god, who are actually dirty rotten two faced scoundrels! I know one person who is a man of the cloth, who also thinks he's going to heaven, even tho he's a kid fiddler and wife beater. He does bad things and then wipes his conscience clean by saying god has forgiven him. I feel guilt and sadness about my past bad deeds, that's what helps me lead a better life. I'm not looking for a get out of jail free card.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 01, 2012 5:30 pm

Are these extreme God-botherers proselytising for our benefit or for their own?
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Tue May 01, 2012 5:34 pm

*runs off to look up what that "P" word means! lol Embarassed

Back in a min! bounce
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Tue May 01, 2012 5:41 pm

Right, got it! Idea

In my opinion, the ones I've come across have mainly tried to convince me of the errors of my ways. I've had catholics do it, evangelicals and church of england, I find the happy clapper's the most vehement in their efforts to "convert" my pagan arse! I think they do this for their own benefit mainly. So they can feel a little more superior and maybe earn a few extra brownie points too.

Oh, what do I know? I just can't help feeling harrassed by some of them...I must have one of those faces that really looks like it needs saving! Twisted Evil
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Guest on Tue May 01, 2012 5:45 pm

Adele Carlyon wrote:
When I start poking a soddin stick in bible basher's faces and telling THEM how lacking THEY are for following a fairytale, well, that's when I'll find it acceptable for them to tell ME that I'm lacking in some way!

Nonetheless, if/when you prevent Jesus’ followers from teaching all ethnicities to observe all things whatsoever that Jesus has commanded, you deny free exercise of religion to Jesus’ followers.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by tlttf on Tue May 01, 2012 5:53 pm

Nonetheless when you continually preach all things to those that don't believe then you deny them their right to free exercise. Or more succinctly put "let those that god would destroy, let him first make them mad.

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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Tue May 01, 2012 5:55 pm

It's a bloody fairytale! It's just a tool to control weak minded people by instilling fear and loathing into them. It starts off with a sprinkling of love and then turns into hell fire and brimstone. It pits one clan against another and I may add, it generates money, lots of money! Why is the vatican full to the brim with stolen gold and works of art, yet people are still dying of hunger? Why does the vatican preach against contraception, when it can save lives and prevent aids?

My kids know right from wrong, they show respect and they are filled with love, they manage all this without following religion. They aren't indoctrinated and they haven't been scared silly about what will happen to them if they don't believe in JC. They are capable of using their brains and weighing things up for themselves.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Guest on Tue May 01, 2012 6:12 pm

Adele Carlyon wrote:
It's a bloody fairytale!

No fairies are involved. It’s Jesus’ tale and Jesus’ commandment. Note (1) the identity of the speaker, and (2) the identity of the one whose commands are to be taught unto all ethnicities.


“And Jesus1 came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations [all ethnicities], baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all whatsoever that I2 commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world’” (Matthew 28:18-20).
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 01, 2012 7:47 pm

Perhaps this might be an opportunity to explain the difference between the Followers of Jesus, of Mohammed, Zoroastrans, Buddhists, Hindu, Sikhs, Shinto, and the sacred runes.

What do you think, RockOnBrother? Fair shares?
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Shirina on Tue May 01, 2012 10:06 pm

My final question on this subject is: Is religion a vital and undeniable support-system for weak and unfulfilled humans or is it a burden and a threat to life as the same weak and unfulfilled humans cannot survive without it ?
I think humanity - at least the majority of them - will need some sort of belief system to carry them through life. That's not necessarily a bad thing as long as that belief system remains personal. The problem is, and will always be, organized religion. Rock has shown a part of scripture that commands us to go into every nation and make them disciples of the Lord. In other words, invade their lands with armies or missionaries and convert them into Christians. Meanwhile, you have Muslims ordered to do the same. This can only result in death and destruction ... which we have seen in spadefuls. Once a belief system becomes organized into mighty empires, whether it is the Vatican, the overly-religious America, or the radical Arab states, things start to go down hill. And it is doing *precisely* that. Sooner or later, religion becomes embedded in the culture and that means the *culture* becomes just as "correct" and "full of truth" as the religion itself. So while the West might aim to spread democracy in the Middle East (a cultural icon for the West and backed by religion), those in the Middle East resist the cultural influence of the West, also backed by their own religion to justify their resistance.

No longer is religious belief a personal experience. Now *everyone* should believe as *I* believe because *my* holy book, *my* God concept, *my* traditions and culture (built upon religion) are the only *right* ones.

I think it's a good thing to think about and analyze such topics as the afterlife, what happens when we die, the nature of consciousness ... and that includes analyzing evidence of ghosts, out-of-body and near-death experiences, and the hidden potential of the human brain. It's inevitable that, in so doing, we will begin to develop a belief system along the way. But it HAS to be done without holy books getting in the way, without decrees from imams, priests, vedics and rabbis *telling* us what to believe. No one should be forced, coerced, or cajoled into a particular belief system because of peer pressure or threat of violence. Yet many of our most prominent religions believe they have a mandate to convert all who fail to believe as they do. At that point, it all becomes about power, about having more believers than the other guy.

If we all took this journey individually, without cultural mores and preexisting holy books, I'm fairly certain that we would all arrive at the same place - TOGETHER. Not just those who believe a certain way or read the same scriptures.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by sickchip on Tue May 01, 2012 11:56 pm

Religous people are nice to you only because they seek to entice you into their dogma.....they are snake salesmen trying to sell you something you don't need.

Humanists are nice to you simply because they are genuinely decent, caring, empathetic people.

...not necessarily facts - just food for thought.

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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Guest on Wed May 02, 2012 1:38 am

oftenwrong wrote:
Perhaps this might be an opportunity to explain the difference between the Followers of Jesus,1 of Mohammed,2 Zoroastrans,3 Buddhists,4 Hindu,5 Sikhs,6 Shinto,7 and the sacred runes.8

What do you think, RockOnBrother? Fair shares?

Here’s what I think.

  1. “Followers of Jesus”: Sometimes I actually follow Jesus’ teachings, so I might be able to shed some light on the process.
  2. “Followers… of Mohammed”: I’m not a follower of Muhammad, so I cannot help.
  3. “Zoroastrans”: I’m not Zoroastrian, so I cannot help.
  4. “Buddhists”: I’m not Buddhist, so I cannot help.
  5. “Hindu”: I’m not Hindu, so I cannot help.
  6. “Sikhs”: I’m not Sikh, so I cannot help.
  7. “Shinto”: I’m not Shinto, so I cannot help.
  8. “the sacred runes”: I know nothing about the sacred runes, so I cannot help.

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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 02, 2012 9:55 am

Refreshing candour in a location where so many correspondents seem to think they can explain anything and everything. At great length.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Papaumau on Wed May 02, 2012 11:19 am


And yet they say that "ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it" !

Of course that epithet is usually attached to the criminal and civil laws of the land but I feel that it also applies to religious law too.

I know it is unrealistic to expect that we all should be expert in all of the possible religions out there, BUT, I think that if we put them all under the same banner of belief without proof then they all end up being very similar.

What gets my goat is when the theists dictate to me that the only way I can live my life fully and with care for the thoughts and properties of others is if I must do it from within one of their belief-systems.

I do not believe and never will that ethics or morals are within the reserves of the religions and that these rules for living a decent life do not exist out-with these systems.

What happens to me or my "soul", ( if it even exists ), after I die is also where the theists feel the need to entrap us as if we do not subscribe to their chosen religion they will say that our souls will wander forever in the void or will go to their purgatory.

That is NOT my "void" and neither is it my "purgatory" as as an atheist and a humanist I have come to the decision that as I KNOW nothing about what happens to my "spirit" ( even if it exists either ), after my death and as all of the religious ones are in the same boat of ignorance as I am then we are all simply guessing about the great hereafter.

Sorry if this sounds a bit flippant but here is what I think about the "hereafter".

A potential girl-friend of mine once said, while sitting parked in my car:

"If you are hereafter what I am hereafter then we are both hereafter the same but if you are not hereafter what I am hereafter, you will be here after I am hame" Twisted Evil

Regards,

Papa....


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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by timeout on Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:53 pm

Papaumau wrote:
As many will already have noted, church leaders around the world are now complaining that what with the dwindling congregations in their churches, temples and synagogues it appears that Humanism and Secularism are becoming threats to their continued existence.

As the years go by and fundamentalist religious beliefs seems to generate more and more hatred between the churches and the faiths I firmly believe that many thousands or even millions of people are now becoming so sick of the direction that these theisms are taking them and they are now beginning to rise up against the hard-line dogma attached to such faiths.

With this argument in mind I have been thinking that those that do not move away from this unhealthy situation are either so brain-washed and indoctrinated by their individual religions that they are now finding that they cannot do without that crutch if they want to survive life on earth as it is at the moment.

My final question on this subject is: Is religion a vital and undeniable support-system for weak and unfulfilled humans or is it a burden and a threat to life as the same weak and unfulfilled humans cannot survive without it ?


Regards....

Papa....

i think it would be a mistake to assume that a move away from formal institutionalised religion equates to a move away from religious belief. many people have moved away from formal religion yet still profess a belief in god. some have also sought an alternative interpretation and moved towards spiritualism and a more Pagan belief system.

in answer to your question i think that formal religions are still very much providing support systems for millions of people around the world. the most successful ones seem to be so integral to a culture that's it's difficult to see how they can separate and any but a few escape them. maybe for many, religion needs to be viewed as a type of drug and people who have depended on it all their life, drug addicts and treated as such. the opium of the masses!


Last edited by timeout on Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typed in the wrong place)
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:05 pm

sickchip wrote:Religion is primarily for inhibited middle classes in the west, or very poor people in poorer countries. Everybody else worships money, celebrity, or technology. ....not a fact - just food for thought.
Religion is for those that wish to be controlled, it's as though they look at the freedom available to them and just cannot trust themselves with it.

As for the list available to the rest, it seems to a short list. Money not something worthy of worship unless lack of it stands between you and a good meal. Celebrity as an object to worship, don't quite get that. Celebrity as something to be desired I can sort of understand, even worship of celebrities but not in the sense of those celebrities being gods so I guess worship is the wrong word there. Worship of technology I don't get at all, technology is about tools like the wheel, fire, screwdriver or a computer - they are just tools to perform tasks.

Let's have a look at a few things that might qualify if not for worship then for wonder.

1. The Universe
2. The Scientific Method
3. Evolution
4. DNA
5. The Love Of A Good Partner
6. Children

I guess we all have our own lists

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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Guest wrote:Nonetheless, if/when you prevent Jesus’ followers from teaching all ethnicities to observe all things whatsoever that Jesus has commanded, you deny free exercise of religion to Jesus’ followers.
I would not wish to deny freedom of religion to Christians or any other group provided they met a few conditions.

1. Do not try and indoctrinate anybody under the age of 18 unless the parents are present in person.
2. They make sure that the people they try to convert have the skills necessary to recognise indoctrination techniques.
3. If someone expresses a desire to be left alone that they honour it.

A short list but not too unreasonable imho.

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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:29 pm

Heretic wrote:
Guest wrote:Nonetheless, if/when you prevent Jesus’ followers from teaching all ethnicities to observe all things whatsoever that Jesus has commanded, you deny free exercise of religion to Jesus’ followers.
I would not wish to deny freedom of religion to Christians or any other group provided they met a few conditions.

1. Do not try and indoctrinate anybody under the age of 18 unless the parents are present in person.
2. They make sure that the people they try to convert have the skills necessary to recognise indoctrination techniques.
3. If someone expresses a desire to be left alone that they honour it.

A short list but not too unreasonable imho.

Heretic
I agree, though I don't think that point 1 needs the caveat of the parents being present.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:30 pm

Heretic wrote:
sickchip wrote:Religion is primarily for inhibited middle classes in the west, or very poor people in poorer countries. Everybody else worships money, celebrity, or technology.  ....not a fact - just food for thought.
Religion is for those that wish to be controlled, it's as though they look at the freedom available to them and just cannot trust themselves with it.

As for the list available to the rest, it seems to a short list. Money not something worthy of worship unless lack of it stands between you and a good meal. Celebrity as an object to worship, don't quite get that. Celebrity as something to be desired I can sort of understand, even worship of celebrities but not in the sense of those celebrities being gods so I guess worship is the wrong word there. Worship of technology I don't get at all, technology is about tools like the wheel, fire, screwdriver or a computer - they are just tools to perform tasks.

Let's have a look at a few things that might qualify if not for worship then for wonder.

1. The Universe
2. The Scientific Method
3. Evolution
4. DNA
5. The Love Of A Good Partner
6. Children

I guess we all have our own lists

Heretic
Grandchildren!!!Cool 
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by Shirina on Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:39 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Guest wrote:Nonetheless, if/when you prevent Jesus’ followers from teaching all ethnicities to observe all things whatsoever that Jesus has commanded, you deny free exercise of religion to Jesus’ followers.
I would not wish to deny freedom of religion to Christians or any other group provided they met a few conditions.

1. Do not try and indoctrinate anybody under the age of 18 unless the parents are present in person.
2. They make sure that the people they try to convert have the skills necessary to recognise indoctrination techniques.
3. If someone expresses a desire to be left alone that they honour it.

A short list but not too unreasonable imho.

Heretic
I agree, though I don't think that point 1 needs the caveat of the parents being present.
4. They do not try to legislate their religion or their morality and turn it into laws that everyone must obey - whether they are members of that religion or not.
5. They keep their hands off the public school system.
6. They stop harassing people on the street or in their cars.
7. That every religion and belief system is treated the same in the eyes of the law.
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Re: Is the growth of Humanism going to mean the end of Theism?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:24 pm

I think we moved a little away from the opening post,,if we looked at Humanism v theism. Now Humanism is basically when people are being nice to each other,helping each other, and using your own intelligence to see yourself through life without the need of the church or what I believe is the fantasy of god and jc, ie basically being humane. Theism, believing in a god or jc or in a deity of some kind, and worship this so called omnipotent,omniescent, being wether in christianity,or bhuddism,mormon's,Islamic's etc. Then out of the two, then surely humanism is best to an atheist. There are getting to be to many god's to choose from anyway and that is one of the reasons the congregations are starting to fall
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