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Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

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Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Thu May 03, 2012 12:23 am

Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Eoxt1hRm9c&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The Jews, the true authority and interpreters of Eden, saw mankind’s gain of knowledge as an elevation in their struggle to understand God. Israel [as understood by Hebrews, = he strives with God]. Strive can be read as to mean to work either with or against. Jews equated God more with a source of knowledge than a source of command that must be obeyed. This is shown by archetypal Moses ignoring God’s law of divorce.

Being a Gnostic Christian, my view goes to following the Jewish view for two basic reasons. They have more authority over the O. T. than Christians and secondly, they give our creation, beginning and God a happy ending for our passage through Eden. True evil had yet to manifest itself to that point in time.

Christians on the other hand, with their view of Eden as man’s fall, cannot see a perfect heaven without evil. God fails on this issue and admits it by casting Satan out.

Christians cannot see a perfect Eden on earth without evil. God fails on this issue and admits it by casting Adam and Eve out.

In Noah’s day, God repented from his sins. He missed the mark and admits it by destroying most of mankind and animal kind with an immoral genocide. God fails on this issue as well.

Did the Jews win in their striving against God to a point where they could judge him?
I think so thanks to Moses and the divorce laws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI

We cannot today know why Christianity reversed some of the Jewish thinking when embracing the O. T. and it’s God and going from man’s elevation to man’s fall.

Should Christians consider following that good Jewish example and do as other cultures have done as shown by Joseph Campbell and seek a messiah the way most Jews do?

If not, then Christians will have to learn to live in a world where their God can be accurately described like this.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Dawkins and most Jews call the bible fiction. Jews can thus get around this accurate description of God by just admitting the truth. It is all myth and metaphor. Literalist and fundamental Christians cannot and I think that over time this rather ugly God will kill Christianity.

At one time the Christian God of the gaps may have had a role to play for us but man has moved on. Christians should perhaps do the same and seek their true God.

Regards
DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Thu May 03, 2012 1:53 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead.

My God is YHVH Elohim, called by Moshe “Adonai Eluheinu” to avoid speaking The Name, as he addressed the Nation: “Sch’ma, Y’srael, Adonai Eluheinu, Adonai echod.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, Author, Creator, Owner, Sovereign of all that is, was, and ever will be, including space-time, energy, matter, emotions, and thoughts/ideas, “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, who said “This is my beloved Son, in whom I’m well pleased; hear ye him.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, my Rock and my Redeemer, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.”


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Thu May 03, 2012 2:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Thu May 03, 2012 2:13 am

You are aware I hope that most Jews do not read their scriptures literally.
They have never been as foolish as some. They know that at least 3 writers wrote the o T and that Moses was not one of them.

Unless he learned how to write about his own death. A neat trick that.

Are you saying that the Jews have more authority over it than the Christians?

Regards
DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Thu May 03, 2012 2:22 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Are you saying that the Jews have more authority over it than the Christians?

I’m saying exactly what I’ve said.

RockOnBrother wrote:
My God is YHVH Elohim, called by Moshe “Adonai Eluheinu” to avoid speaking The Name, as he addressed the Nation: “Sch’ma, Y’srael, Adonai Eluheinu, Adonai echod.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, Author, Creator, Owner, Sovereign of all that is, was, and ever will be, including space-time, energy, matter, emotions, and thoughts/ideas, “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, who said “This is my beloved Son, in whom I’m well pleased; hear ye him.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, my Rock and my Redeemer, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.”

I welcome discussion of and discourse upon what I’ve said.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Thu May 03, 2012 6:52 am

Greatest I am wrote:
You are aware I hope that most Jews do not read their scriptures literally.
They have never been as foolish as some. They know that at least 3 writers wrote the o T and that Moses was not one of them.

Since reading this about six hours ago, I’ve talked to several Jews. One of them neatly summed up what all of then said.

  • He doesn’t know that Moshe did write Torah.
  • He doesn’t know that Moshe didn’t write Torah.
  • If Moshe did “write” Torah, he doesn’t know if he wrote all of it.
  • If Moshe did “write” Torah, he doesn’t know if he physically picked up quill and ink and personally affixed Hebrew characters to parchment/lambskin/whatever.
  • He does know that YHVH Elohim, Adonai Eluheinu, caused Torah to be written and revealed to mankind, first the Jew, then the Greek, and that’s all he cares about.

I’m past five Jews in my poll, and so far, this accurately summarizes all of their views.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu May 03, 2012 10:18 am



Greatest quote

You are aware I hope that most Jews do not read their scriptures literally.
They have never been as foolish as some. They know that at least 3 writers wrote the o T and that Moses was not one of them.


Just as there are many books today in circulation that bear a pseudonym. Some even bear the name of the author, but were written, under direction, by a 'ghostwriter'.

And it's no trick to write about one's death. One doesn't. One writes about one's life and often an appendage is added later by another re: the authors death.

The OT was written by many authors. Some books written by one author, others by several, taking information from other sources now not available. The Book of Gad the Seer, of Nathan the Prophet, etc. All mentioned in the OT.

So many books, so many different authors, so many different styles.


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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Thu May 03, 2012 5:32 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:82]So many books, so many different authors, so many different styles.


[/color]

Yes. And sources for original material.

I, like many scholars, think that all scriptures basically started in Sumer and Egypt.
Many think Moses and othe patriarchs were really Egyptians.

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DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Thu May 03, 2012 5:36 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Are you saying that the Jews have more authority over it than the Christians?

I’m saying exactly what I’ve said.

RockOnBrother wrote:
My God is YHVH Elohim, called by Moshe “Adonai Eluheinu” to avoid speaking The Name, as he addressed the Nation: “Sch’ma, Y’srael, Adonai Eluheinu, Adonai echod.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, Author, Creator, Owner, Sovereign of all that is, was, and ever will be, including space-time, energy, matter, emotions, and thoughts/ideas, “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, who said “This is my beloved Son, in whom I’m well pleased; hear ye him.”

My God is YHVH Elohim, my Rock and my Redeemer, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.”

I welcome discussion of and discourse upon what I’ve said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGrlWOhtj3g

Regards
DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Thu May 03, 2012 6:25 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Are you saying that the Jews have more authority over it than the Christians?
RockOnBrother wrote:
I welcome discussion of and discourse upon what I’ve said.

I don’t discuss and discourse upon YHVH Elohim via YouTube uploads. Perhaps you’re up to starting at Genesis 1:1 and disciplining yourself to stay with Genesis 1:1 for awhile. If so, I welcome discussion of and discourse upon Genesis 1:1 with you.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by oftenwrong on Thu May 03, 2012 7:24 pm

"Godhead"?

That's Ayn Rand stuff, isn't it?
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by sickchip on Thu May 03, 2012 9:13 pm

I don’t discuss and discourse upon YHVH Elohim via YouTube uploads

Why not?

YHVH - how does one pronounce that....I am not sure?
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Thu May 03, 2012 10:14 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Are you saying that the Jews have more authority over it than the Christians?
RockOnBrother wrote:
I welcome discussion of and discourse upon what I’ve said.

I don’t discuss and discourse upon YHVH Elohim via YouTube uploads. Perhaps you’re up to starting at Genesis 1:1 and disciplining yourself to stay with Genesis 1:1 for awhile. If so, I welcome discussion of and discourse upon Genesis 1:1 with you.

That U tube was for comic relief as well as to show my position. You missed some good laughs.

Right on. The best part of the bible is Gen 1, 2, 3.

You should know that when I discuss Eden with Christians, we never get past their view that the talking snake lied. If you think that, we might not get far into this wonderful myth.

First, do you read Genesis literally?
Second, from YPOV, who was our first woman? Lilith or Eve?

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DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Thu May 03, 2012 10:19 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"Godhead"?

That's Ayn Rand stuff, isn't it?

Never heard of her.

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DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Shirina on Thu May 03, 2012 11:23 pm

That's Ayn Rand stuff, isn't it?
Yep
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Fri May 04, 2012 1:13 am

sickchip wrote:
I don’t discuss and discourse upon YHVH Elohim via YouTube uploads

Why not?

I seek YHVH Elohim through his Word.

sickchip wrote:
YHVH - how does one pronounce that....I am not sure?

One doesn’t. I’ve been told that YHVH is an accurate transliteration of The Name as written in Hebrew.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Fri May 04, 2012 1:30 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Right on. The best part of the bible is Gen 1, 2, 3.

You should know that when I discuss Eden1 with Christians, we never get past their view that the talking snake lied2. If you think that, we might not get far into this wonderful myth.

First, do you read Genesis literally?
Second, from YPOV, who was our first woman? Lilith or Eve?3
DL


  1. Genesis 2.
  2. Genesis 3.
  3. Genesis 2.

Cart before horse. Genesis 1:1 precedes Genesis 2 and 3.


“B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets” (Genesis 1:1).

The starting point.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by oftenwrong on Fri May 04, 2012 12:08 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:"Godhead"?

That's Ayn Rand stuff, isn't it?

Never heard of her.

Regards
DL

"Never heard of her"? Then how do you know that Ayn Rand was female?

The words are neutral in gender, as is Greatest I am, or indeed oftenwrong.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by sickchip on Fri May 04, 2012 1:13 pm

I read Atlas Shrugged, and The Fountainhead, some years ago - some interesting notions/fanciful philosophies are contained therein promoting Rand's system she called Objectivism.

I concluded that while some of her ideas were interesting to debate, they were on the whole dangerous verging on sociopathic. Apparently Thatcher was quite enamoured with Rand's thinking.


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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Fri May 04, 2012 2:37 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Right on. The best part of the bible is Gen 1, 2, 3.

You should know that when I discuss Eden1 with Christians, we never get past their view that the talking snake lied2. If you think that, we might not get far into this wonderful myth.

First, do you read Genesis literally?
Second, from YPOV, who was our first woman? Lilith or Eve?3
DL


  1. Genesis 2.
  2. Genesis 3.
  3. Genesis 2.

Cart before horse. Genesis 1:1 precedes Genesis 2 and 3.


“B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets” (Genesis 1:1).

The starting point.

If we are to discuss, it must be in English.

I also need to know if we are looking at the writings literally or not.

Regards
DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Fri May 04, 2012 4:33 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:

“B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets” (Genesis 1:1).
The starting point.
Greatest I am wrote:
If we are to discuss, it must be in English.

I also need to know if we are looking at the writings literally or not.

The Hebrew Bible, including Torah (Genesis-Deuteronomy) is written in Hebrew; Hebrew script, Hebrew words. I’ve provided a workable transliteration / transvocalization of Genesis 1:1 in which Roman characters are used to approximate the Hebrew script as spoken by Sephardic Jews. As “Sephardic” Hebrew is generally recognized by the American Jews with whom I regularly discourse as about as close to the original sound as one can get in the 21st Century.

Studying Hebrew is not some sacred ritual reserved unto certain designated sages. My formal education includes completion of what was once called “grammar school”, 1st through 6th, completion of which should impart unto a reasonably intelligent person sufficient mastery of written English to easily read and understand The New York Times. I passed 6th grade; accordingly, given that I’m a reasonably intelligent person capable of reading and understanding The New York Times, I’ve given myself permission to study and understand Hebrew, at least biblical Hebrew, so that I can better understand the Word of YHVH Elohim, commonly rendered in English as the LORD our God (italicized words inserted).

Transliterated/transvocalized Hebrew, followed by Tyndale’s English translation:


“B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets” (Genesis 1:1).

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

What does it mean?
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by oftenwrong on Fri May 04, 2012 4:47 pm

I'm always amused when people treat a translation as though it were just as valid as an original, especially when the original is not written in a Western script but in cuniform or cyrillic.

Even using the same alphabet you can get howlers like, "well, well, well!" translated as "a row of holes in the ground."
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Fri May 04, 2012 5:05 pm

[quote="RockOnBrother"]
RockOnBrother wrote:

[/color]

“B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets” (Genesis 1:1).

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

What does it mean?

It says, nature created what we see and we will call nature God.

What does it mean to you?

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DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Fri May 04, 2012 6:02 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:

“B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets” (Genesis 1:1).

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).
What does it mean?
Greatest I am wrote:
It says, nature created what we see and we will call nature God.

What does it mean to you?

It doesn’t say “nature created” at all. Here’s a quick exposition/analysis, who, what, when, where, why, how:

  • Who: Elohim, power, most likely plural of Eloah, power, from a primitive Hebrew word the inherent meaning of which is power.

    By inference from the context, Elohim, a plural used as a singular, is incomprehensible power, thus, necessarily immeasurable power, by implication, infinite power.

  • What, bara, created, by inference from the context, “created from nothing”, et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, the heaven(s) (everything other than the earth), and the earth (everything but the heavens), in total, everything; thus bara… et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets, created everything from nothing.

  • When/Where: B’r’shyth, the beginning, at the beginning, at the point of beginning, by inference from the context, at the beginning point of everything when everything begins.

  • Why: Genesis 1:2 and following, scattered throughout the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts of the Hebrew and Greek Bibles, but not present in Genesis 1:1.

  • How: Not addressed scientifically, addressed poetically/,metaphorically in Genesis 1:2 and following, scattered throughout the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts of the Hebrew and Greek Bibles, but not present in Genesis 1:1.

What does it mean all together now?
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Fri May 04, 2012 6:43 pm

You asked what it meant to me. I responded and ask the same of you.

Reciprocity is fair play.

Shall we continue fairly?

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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Shirina on Fri May 04, 2012 6:46 pm

What does it mean all together now?
It means that the Hebrews were just as good at myth-making as the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Fri May 04, 2012 6:50 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
You asked what it meant to me. I responded and ask the same of you.

Reciprocity is fair play.

Shall we continue fairly?

Regards
DL

I’ve corrected your error and provided exposition/analysis of the text in order to discover together what the text means. So, based upon the text itself, what does it mean now?
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Fri May 04, 2012 7:01 pm

What error?
You asked for an opinion and I gave it.

Opinions are never wrong as they are never knowledge.

Oh well. Perhaps we can discuss something else elsewhere where I do not have to try to learn a new language.

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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Fri May 04, 2012 7:22 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
What error?

This error:

Greatest I am wrote:
It says, nature created what we see and we will call nature God.

Neither “nature” nor “nature God” are mentioned in the text “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”

Greatest I am wrote:
You asked for an opinion…

No I didn’t. Here’s what I asked:

RockOnBrother wrote:
What does it mean?
RockOnBrother wrote:
What does it mean all together now?
Greatest I am wrote:
Oh well. Perhaps we can discuss something else elsewhere where I do not have to try to learn a new language.

You’ve sufficient intellectual capability to learn transliterated/transvocalized biblical Hebrew. Let’s discuss what we learn together.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Fri May 04, 2012 7:33 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
What does it mean all together now?
Shirina wrote:
It means that the Hebrews1 were just as good at myth-making2 as the Greeks,3 Romans,4 and Egyptians.5


  1. Not mentioned in the text “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”
  2. Not mentioned in the text “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”
  3. Not mentioned in the text “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”
  4. Not mentioned in the text “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”
  5. Not mentioned in the text “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”

What does the Hebrew text mean? I welcome the opportunity to learn this together with you.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by sickchip on Fri May 04, 2012 8:05 pm

Which do you think is the best book?

1. The Bible (revised editions allowed).
2. The Lord of the Rings
3. The Koran
4. Harry Potter
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by oftenwrong on Fri May 04, 2012 8:27 pm

This dialogue of the deaf is hilarious.
At the time under discussion, the great majority of people were illiterate, and their tales were related orally around a campfire.

Subsequently, rather like Pete Seeger collecting Folk Songs, someone would consign the legends to the written word.

You wouldn't hang a rat on such evidence.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Shirina on Fri May 04, 2012 8:42 pm

What does the Hebrew text mean? I welcome the opportunity to learn this together with you.
Well, I would assume it means just what it says - that God created the heavens and the earth, i.e. the universe.

However, whether or not the text is true is another debate altogether and the debate that I think is most relevant.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Fri May 04, 2012 9:32 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
What error?

This error:

Greatest I am wrote:
It says, nature created what we see and we will call nature God.

Neither “nature” nor “nature God” are mentioned in the text “B’r’shyth bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.”

Greatest I am wrote:
You asked for an opinion…

No I didn’t. Here’s what I asked:

RockOnBrother wrote:
What does it mean?
RockOnBrother wrote:
What does it mean all together now?
Greatest I am wrote:
Oh well. Perhaps we can discuss something else elsewhere where I do not have to try to learn a new language.

You’ve sufficient intellectual capability to learn transliterated/transvocalized biblical Hebrew. Let’s discuss what we learn together.

It is said that those who know more than one language have a harder time making themselves understood. I know three already and already have a hard enough time.

I do appreciate the offer though but since I read all scriptures as myth, even knowing the exact language would not necessarily tell me what the writer meant. I prefer to do the Midrash thing and look for deeper meaning instead of the exact language.

This clip pretty well tells me that even good Jews can never be sure for some words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J84zSeKaDkU&feature=related

This other clip shows a bit of how I like to look at the Jewish myths.
That is why I asked if you read them literally or not.
This lady has good ways of stimulating thought.

http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2011/genesis-of-desire/video-zornberg_interview.shtml#video

Regards
DL
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri May 04, 2012 11:03 pm

Greatest.

Read your post.

Being a Gnostic Christian, my view goes to following the Jewish view for two basic reasons. They have more authority over the O. T. than Christians and secondly, they give our creation, beginning and God a happy ending for our passage through Eden. True evil had yet to manifest itself to that point in time.


Dawkins and most Jews call the bible fiction. Jews can thus get around this accurate description of God by just admitting the truth. It is all myth and metaphor.

If the Bible is all myth and metaphor, then they have authority over what?

The bible actually contains many historical facts concerning the Jews and their history, confirmed by Archaeology in the last 2 centuries. Archaeology also confirms the existence of previously 'mythological' cities and nations known only through the Bible. The NT likewise.

The early part of the Bible also contains much that has been handed down from earlier civilisations, agreed. That some things are exaggerated, agreed. But that the Bible is all myth and metaphor is certainly not so.

Should Christians consider following that good Jewish example and do as other cultures have done as shown by Joseph Campbell and seek a messiah the way most Jews do?

I divide the Jews into 3 types, though there are shades in-between. The Orthodox Jew. The liberal Jew. And the non-religious Jew. My personal contact with Jews is limited, but I am more than surprised by your comment about 'most' Jews.......

In Noah’s day, God repented from his sins. He missed the mark and admits it by destroying most of mankind and animal kind with an immoral genocide. God fails on this issue as well.

If the Bible is myth etc. then 'Noah's day' did not happen. God did not repent from His sins, and did not fail, surely.

That a flood did occur I am convinced. But Noah's flood? Floods of significance took place regularly over millenia. Many wiped out villages, towns etc. The Mediterranean flooded into the Black Sea (which at the time was a fresh water lake) circa 4-6000BC. It flooded all the low-lying lands of the Black Sea, destroying everything.

You say that true evil had not manifest itself in Eden. That surely depends whether you believe that Lilith actually existed as Adam's first wife. She certainly isn't known in the Bible, except for a possible reference in Isaiah, as a beast/monster. Or whether she was a representation of something evil, from the Sumerian time. Many ideas exist. She certainly doesn't appear in Judaism until 6-7 century BC.

Tha t Moses and the Patriarchs were Egyptian doesn't sit well with me. If the Bible is myth then speculation is irrelevant. If we accept the Patriarchs as actual people then my thoughts are these.

Although Egyptian society was Patriarchal, women were treated as subordinate but respected more than the Jewish women. This is seen in documents and on monuments.

Egyptian religion was polytheistic. The one venture into Monotheism ended upon the death of the Akhenaten, the Pharoah who tried it.

Abraham came from Ur of the 'Chaldees' - though at this time it was part of the Babylonian Empire. We have this reference to a city which was to disappear completely in a few centuries, and believe to be a mythological city by many till relatively recently. We now know that the Bible was true, and have found Ur. What would Abraham's family, an Egyptian, be doing living in Ur.

Finally. It is believed that around this time Northern Egypt was ruled by another nation for about a century, before being thrown out by the Pharoah of the southern part of Egypt.

Even Bible readers tend not to know that there is 500+ years between Abraham and Moses.

Forgot. Jews equated God more with a source of knowledge than a source of command that must be obeyed. This is shown by archetypal Moses ignoring God’s law of divorce?
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Shirina on Fri May 04, 2012 11:18 pm

The bible actually contains many historical facts concerning the Jews and their history, confirmed by Archaeology in the last 2 centuries. Archaeology also confirms the existence of previously 'mythological' cities and nations known only through the Bible. The NT likewise.
Yet even Biblical archaeologists admit that they will never find Jesus's resurrection in an archaeological dig. Proving certain historical facts in the Bible does not prove that the religion surrounding it is true. Story-writers of all stripes have used real places and real people in their works of fiction.

In the original Superman movie - entitled simply Superman: The Movie starring Christopher Reeves and Gene Hackman - you will notice a scene where a school bus almost falls off the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. Supeman, of course, rescues the bus.

Now ... let's assume thousands of years from now, a primitive goatherder stumbles across a DVD of this movie. The DVD is sent to some historical society that knows how to view 2,000 year old DVDs. Wow! Let's look at the facts. First, we have confirmation that a city called San Francisco really did exist, and that yes, there was a bridge called the Golden Gate. We have independent photographs of it from hundreds of sources. We also know from multiple sources that children were, in fact, taken to school in bright yellow vehicles known as "school buses." And, if that weren't enough, we do know that a fault line exists in what was once known as California, so an earthquake here is more than just possible, it is likely. Given all of the historical evidence, we must conclude that Superman was a real person, especially since Superman is referenced all over the place in American culture. We have movies, we have books, and we even have ornamental figurines of this Superman person, most likely for religious worship ceremonies of some sort.

You can see how that can work.
Floods of significance took place regularly over millenia. Many wiped out villages, towns etc. The Mediterranean flooded into the Black Sea (which at the time was a fresh water lake) circa 4-6000BC. It flooded all the low-lying lands of the Black Sea, destroying everything.
Agreed. I just think storytellers snatched the flood story and added a morality tale to it. First it was the Epic of Gilgamesh from Sumer and it has caught on.


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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by oftenwrong on Sat May 05, 2012 12:06 am

The Norse Sagas told of Gods such as Thor and Loki, surviving also in Wagner's Gotterdamerung within the Ring cycle. These sagas are a counterpoint to the Scriptures, but have not seized the public imagination in the same way. Curious. Perhaps it was The Crusades that cemented our religious beliefs.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Sat May 05, 2012 12:18 am

Greatest I am wrote:
I do appreciate the offer though but since I read all scriptures as myth, even knowing the exact language would not necessarily tell me what the writer meant. I prefer to do the Midrash thing and look for deeper meaning instead of the exact language.

Genesis 1:1 awaits whenever you’ve garnered sufficient “stuff” to (1) blank slate” your mind, and (2) exposit and analyze prior to interpreting and concluding.

I stand ready to discuss and discourse upon Genesis 1:1 with you at that time.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by sickchip on Sat May 05, 2012 12:42 am

The bible actually contains many historical facts

It should be noted Harry Potter contains many facts too.....such as London buses being red.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Guest on Sat May 05, 2012 12:54 am

sickchip wrote:
The bible actually contains many historical facts

It should be noted Harry Potter contains many facts too.....such as London buses being red.

The archaeologist (German, I believe) that discovered Hittite sites, thus establishing that Hittites not myth, but were real, used The Hebrew Bible to locate the sites.
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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

Post by Greatest I am on Sat May 05, 2012 2:31 am

trevorw2539 wrote:

If the Bible is all myth and metaphor, then they have authority over what?

]

Others have spoken well to your other points so I chose this.

Jews have more authority in understanding whatever they wrote for their own culture and peoples because they were talking of their own oral history.

Christians had no authority FMPOV to reverse any of the conclusions that Jews came up with.

As to the historicity of those myths, I offer this one of many scholarly works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP5LdELd_0o&feature=gv

A book of history does not begin with two creation myths and two flood myths as well as a talking snake.
This tells me that it is a book of myths with some disjointed history thrown in.

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Re: Your God is your ultimate barrier to finding the Godhead

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