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Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

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Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by keenobserver1 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

If there is a God, he definetly isn't English.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Tosh on Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:08 pm

Nor can you prove evolution

Science has proven evolution, your denial of the incontrovertible evidence defines a delusion, Richard Dawkins book was aimed at ignorant folk like you.


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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Tosh on Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:47 pm

The word " why", means " for what reason or purpose."

So when people say " why are we here ", what they mean is " for what purpose or reason are we here ".

There is a technical term for this which escapes me, but the use of the word " why " in this context presupposes the existence of a reason or purpose, and wants to know " what " that reason or purpose could be.

So the question " why are here here " begs the question why should there be a " why " and for what reason should we assume purpose.

No one asks why rocks are here or why did my lawnmower break down in the context of purpose, in fact the only purposeful context it is used in is to do with human intentionality, " why did do you do that and why are you here ".

Our brain takes the question " why are you here ", copies it and creates a pattern to read " why are we here or why am I here". It is expanding the model of human intentionality into an overall purpose and attaching it to oneself or to all of our species.

It seems to me the question " why " preceded " how or what " by 65,000 years, up until fairly recently in our history everything that existed had a spirit of intentionality, an unseen agent of purpose, everything had a " why ".
Hurricanes and even death had a purpose or intention behind it, therefore the last interrogative relic from our post cognizant past is " why are we here ". One could argue that it was the presence of " why " that held back " how " and " what " for 65,000 years, we never needed to ask the questions because we had the answers, the reasons for things happening were " intended " for us.

There could be a psychological reason why we have a cognitive bias for intentionality and against unintentionality, it may be counter intuitive to feel unplanned and unintended, an accident of birth is very close to being unwanted, and we all want to be wanted. If a young child could understand the question its intuitive answer would be to be nurtured, ergo our minds create a protective father with a mother's love.

So my answer to the question " why we are here ", is....... " to create the why ", if we do not then life becomes a series of impersonal " hows " and " whats " and that kind of life has no personal meaning.

So I ask all believers to get off their lazy asses and create their own personal why, instead of asking someone else to do it for you, and please stop assuming all humans must share the identical " why ". This kind of group thinking is an inherited genetic trait from your social primate ancestors.

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by polyglide on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:10 pm

And the Bible was aimed to help idiots like you but in your case why he bothered I do not know.

If you look at the primate ancestor thoery you will find no primate that can be directly linked with mankind, the last known under consideration has been proved false on several counts, so there is no evidence that stands up to examination.

Although I do believe, as your posts confirm, there are men who have less common sense than primates.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Tosh on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:03 pm

If you look at the primate ancestor thoery you will find no primate that can be directly linked with mankind, the last known under consideration has been proved false on several counts, so there is no evidence that stands up to examination.


Link please.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:31 pm

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/self-sufficiency/similarities-among-the-primates.html


In 1680, Edward Tyson was the first to use comparative anatomy extensively and demonstrated the similarities between the orangutan and man. His best known work was published in 1699 which compared the anatomy of a Pygmie with that of a monkey, an ape, and a man. Tyson was himself surprised at how closely the orangutan resembled man.

In 1758, Carl Linnaeus recognized the close relationship between humans, monkeys, and apes. He was the one who officially devised the group name or order, primates, to encompass them all and to denote their high ranking in the organization of the animal kingdom. At the time it was generally held that species were fixed. The arrangement of the animal kingdom was seen as a precise hierarchy of increasingly complex forms, each created independently of ones to either side of it—beginning with the humblest creature and culminating with the primary of man. Linnaceous's work did not threaten this theory. He believed that all animals had been created by the hand of God and that man had been set apart from them in a special way.

By the end of the 18th and well into the 19th century, two distinct lines of approach had appeared. There were still those who saw all forms of life as having been created by the hand of God, and there was a now hardening core of evolutionists who thought in terms of gradual processes of complexity. The conclusion that man was in effect a highly-developed ape was a bombshell to Victorian Britain and to the world at large. It was in direct contradiction to the Biblical doctrine that man was made in God's image.

The debate on man's origins continues to rage, though among scientists rather than theologians.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by snowyflake on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:04 pm

The most recent common ancestor of man was an animal that was neither a man nor a chimpanzee. The species split at this stage, around 5 million years ago and one branch became chimps and bonobos and the other became man. Chimpanzees and human DNA is 96% the same.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120823142735.htm

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Tosh on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:15 pm

The debate on man's origins continues to rage, though among scientists rather than theologians..

There is no debate among scientists that man evolved from a common ancestor with primates.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Tosh on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:21 am

Okie Dokie Texas,

Lets assume we have two competing hypotheses, one is macro-evolution( speciation) and the other is Genesis, both subject to the same scientific scrutiny, any incontrovertible evidence against either proves in the logical sense the hypothesis false.

Care to explain why God created the whale species, a sea faring mammal weighing from 30 to 150 tons with legs and feet unable to bear its weight ? What does this species need legs and feet for and why does this species have the genetic variation of another species ?


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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:27 am

Care to explain why God created the whale species, a sea faring mammal weighing from 30 to 150 tons with legs and feet unable to bear its weight ? What does this species need legs and feet for and why does this species have the genetic variation of another species ?

A whale needs legs so that when it meets up with another whale that it doesn't like, it can kick him in the nuts.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by polyglide on Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:04 am

A near miss might just as well be a million miles, of course when God created all life there was bound to be close relationships by the means he used for creation, just as there are many examples in other matters, the manufacture of many man made things are closely related but just not the same, not are they brought about by evolution.

99.99% does not equal certainty and in respect of evolution is meaningless regarding percentages.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by snowyflake on Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:10 pm

Are you saying that in light of the evidence that 99.99% supports that evolution is a fact, you will believe the .01% that supports your faith? Now if that isn't one of the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Seatbelts save lives. This has been proven. It's a fact. The fact that sometimes the seatbelt might cause the death of a person does not discount the overall benefit of wearing a seat belt. Or would you rather count on the .01% chance that someone dies from wearing a seat belt and therefore not wear one? This is ridiculous reasoning.

I hope you wear a helmet on your day pass just in case you crack your skull and all the candies fall out.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Tosh on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:04 pm

A near miss might just as well be a million miles, of course when God created all life there was bound to be close relationships by the means he used for creation,

Devoid of reason.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by polyglide on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:32 am

No, I am saying that 99.99% is not a certainty and therefore could be wrong.

99% do not believe in either evolution nor creation.

You have to understand reason before commenting and Tosh, lost in dreamland again.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Shirina on Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:31 am

No, I am saying that 99.99% is not a certainty and therefore could be wrong.
And what other piece of information, other than religious information, would you disregard even if it was declared a 99.99% certainty?
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by snowyflake on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:12 pm

No, I am saying that 99.99% is not a certainty and therefore could be wrong.

That is true. But in your own life are you more likely to go with 99.99% or 0.01% in making a choice?

99% do not believe in either evolution nor creation.

This makes no sense. Most people believe in the supernatural and a supreme being of some sort based on their upbringing and geographical location which means they have some form of belief in a creation story. Most educated people think evolution is the correct answer as to the origin of species.

You have to understand reason before commenting and Tosh, lost in dreamland again.

Definition of REASON
1
a : a statement offered in explanation or justification
b : a rational ground or motive
c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact
d : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : cause
2
a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence (2) : proper exercise of the mind (3) : sanity
b : the sum of the intellectual powers

I don't think you understand reason, poly. Smile

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Shirina on Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:02 pm

On threads elsewhere throughout internet-land, American Christians are still debating with each other not over whether the Adam and Eve story is historical fact, but what the meaning of God's words to Adam and Eve actually meant. It's amazing to me how these people can bring the full weight of their intellect to bear on the trivialities of whether God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply before or after the Fall of Man but utterly fail to use that same intellect to decide if the Adam and Eve story should be regarded as literal or allegorical. Of course it's obvious that it's literal and the Adam and Eve story really happened! bounce

They'll spend their whole lives with their noses buried in the Bible but won't spend 15 minutes glancing at a science book. Then they'll complain because Muslim Imams only teach Arab children the Koran.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:24 pm

Shirina wrote:
They'll spend their whole lives with their noses buried in the Bible but won't spend 15 minutes glancing at a science book.

What portion of my whole life have I spent with “[my nose] buried in the Bible?” How many minutes have I spent “glancing at a science book?” Have you ever asked me about the time I’ve spent in either endeavor? If you have not asked me, how do you know?
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Shirina on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:02 pm

What portion of my whole life have I spent with “[my nose] buried in the Bible?” How many minutes have I spent “glancing at a science book?” Have you ever asked me about the time I’ve spent in either endeavor? If you have not asked me, how do you know?

I don't know ... then again, you haven't asked questions like, "If we evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys?"

It's not too difficult to tell those who haven't educated themselves and those who have.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Guest on Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:08 pm

Shirina wrote:
They'll spend their whole lives with their noses buried in the Bible but won't spend 15 minutes glancing at a science book.
RockOnBrother wrote:
What portion of my whole life have I spent with “[my nose] buried in the Bible?” How many minutes have I spent “glancing at a science book?” Have you ever asked me about the time I’ve spent in either endeavor? If you have not asked me, how do you know?
Shirina wrote:
What portion of my whole life have I spent with “[my nose] buried in the Bible?” How many minutes have I spent “glancing at a science book?” Have you ever asked me about the time I’ve spent in either endeavor? If you have not asked me, how do you know?
I don't know…

Since you’ve stated as fact two things about me that you’ve stated that you don’t know about me, do you intend to ask me about these two things? If so, when do you intend to do so?
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by methought on Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:56 pm

The species split at this stage, around 5 million years ago and one branch became chimps and bonobos and the other became man.

There was a lovely programme on TV, part of the David Attenborough series in which he visited a Shangri-La or a valley high up in the Himalayas with a tropical climate because warm air was funnelled up a narrow valley and trapped in this closed eco-system. The black and white monkeys all had pretty pink lips and otherwise looked Chinese.....

There were species there that were found nowhere else. Magical.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by methought on Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:58 pm

There's more to life than books - sometimes we need to get out more.....
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Review

Post by gurthbruins on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:52 am

I've been away for about 30 pages... are we much further forward? I try to inject some more atmosphere and elevation into our stories: here's something I've just been reading (I think I googled "sibyl whiteman morris pianist")

February 7 2007 at 03:07pm
By Fiona Chisholm

Professor Michael Whiteman, mathematician, musician and mystic who turned 100 in November, died at his Bergvliet home on Monday.

He had lived long enough to see copies of his sixth book, Universal Theology, or Life in Other Worlds, published earlier this year. It is Volume III of a series which includes details of his out-of-body experiences.

Whiteman's daughter, pianist Sibyl Whiteman Morris, said her father had been "in positive spirits" on Saturday. But on Sunday he complained of nausea and backache and she found him dead on the floor of his lounge on Monday.

He had lived alone since the death in 1982 of his wife Sona Eavestaff, a concert pianist and teacher.

Born in London in 1906, the youngest of four children, Whiteman attended Caius College, Cambridge, where he obtained an MA in mathematics, obtaining first class in the Maths Tripos.

After emigrating to South Africa in 1936, he studied composition and conducting at the College of Music and two years later had the unusual pleasure of conducting the Cape Town Municipal Orchestra in a performance of his own piano concerto with his wife Sona as soloist.

The following year he was appointed junior lecturer in pure mathematics at UCT and on his retirement in 1972, was made Emeritus Professor.

Whiteman was the author of more than 60 publications, six books and numerous papers on mysticism, philosophy of science, parapsychology, psychotherapy and the Indian scriptures of Sanskrit and Pali. Other ancient languages in which he was proficient were Vedic, Hebrew, Greek and Latin, which enabled him to study religious texts in the original languages.


Professor M. Whiteman was my lecturer in Applied Mathematics at UCT in 1952-1953. Years after that, he lent me some manuscripts of some of his books on mysticism.

I can state his approach in two words: "Loving obedience". Obedience - to what? To that which I think is worth defining as God or Allah, but not a Jehovah who stands outside and apart from his creation.

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by snowyflake on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:59 pm

In spite of my utter disbelief, I love the season and getting together with family and friends. So I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and all the best wishes for a happy, healthy and wonderful 2013.

Lots of love, snowyflake Smile
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:59 pm

That's a sound dictum.
Take from Life only the bits you want, and leave the rest.
Who could argue?

Let us pray that not too many people die violently in the World this week.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by boatlady on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:45 pm

amen to that
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by polyglide on Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:37 pm

You can read as many books as you wish of every conceivable subject but that will not change the facts, it may just make the water more murky and bury the truth.

You do not need any other proof than the life on earth to realise that the earth was created in one way or another.

On the basis of the evidence I am prepared to accept, then God is a living loving being who must by now be very dispondent at the manner we humans have treated the earth and each other and there is no book that can disprove my belief.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Shirina on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:42 pm

and there is no book that can disprove my belief.
And no book that can prove it, either.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:58 pm

Shirina wrote:
and there is no book that can disprove my belief.
And no book that can prove it, either.

And there is no book that can prove your belief.

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by snowyflake on Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:52 pm

And there is no book that can prove your belief.

But there are billions of books that provide evidence that the likelihood of Shirina's belief is more probable than the likelihood of yours, Rock. Mankind has the remarkable ability to live in a state of denial and imagination and fantasy as a protective coating for the harsh realities of our existence. That's why we love movies, books and TV. Doesn't make what you see or read 'true' though. It's just nice escapism.

It's so important to live your life happily and fulfilled without the 'idea' of suffering for God's sake. So many Christians (and Muslims) think that this life is ONLY for worshipping an egomaniacal God and precludes them from loving all other humans on the planet. No matter what you say, a Christian is automatically in opposition to anyone who is not a Christian. This is true of anyone who subscribes to a religion. As an atheist, I can love all humanity without judgement or prejudice.

That's my Happy Hippy New Year message to you. Smile Take care of yourself and your family, Rock. x
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Red Rackham on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:03 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Can anything be drawn from the example of architecture?

Prior to the 20th. Century, the tallest buildings to be found anywhere would inevitably be places of worship. Church steeples reached towards HQ in obvious symbolism.

Now? Little else matches the soaring edifices of the Banking industry for altitude.

I believe Lincoln Cathederal was the tallest building in the world at one point.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Shirina on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:03 pm

Prior to the 20th. Century, the tallest buildings to be found anywhere would inevitably be places of worship. Church steeples reached towards HQ in obvious symbolism.
Churches could get away with being tall and massive as most of it is just empty space. Modern skyscrapers are habitable from top to bottom. Skyscrapers didn't begin to surpass churches in height until the elevator was invented as no one wanted to build a 20 storry building with only one floor and 19 stories of ceiling space - and certainly no one wanted to climb 20 stories worth of stairs. Even today, older apartment buildings with no elevators charge the cheapest rent to the upper floors. I remember moving into a 4th floor apartment with no elevator ... yeah, lugging a couch up 8 flights of stars (2 flights per floor) was a horror story I still remember.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:05 pm

snowyflake wrote:
And there is no book that can prove your belief.

But there are billions of books that provide evidence that the likelihood of Shirina's belief is more probable than the likelihood of yours, Rock. Mankind has the remarkable ability to live in a state of denial and imagination and fantasy as a protective coating for the harsh realities of our existence. That's why we love movies, books and TV. Doesn't make what you see or read 'true' though. It's just nice escapism.

It's so important to live your life happily and fulfilled without the 'idea' of suffering for God's sake. So many Christians (and Muslims) think that this life is ONLY for worshipping an egomaniacal God and precludes them from loving all other humans on the planet. No matter what you say, a Christian is automatically in opposition to anyone who is not a Christian. This is true of anyone who subscribes to a religion. As an atheist, I can love all humanity without judgement or prejudice.

That's my Happy Hippy New Year message to you. Smile Take care of yourself and your family, Rock. x


'for worshipping an egomaniacal God'.

How do we know that the above is true? What do you base this statement on?

The Old Testament was written by Hebrews, for Hebrews. It tells us the attitude that they had. As a nation they believed God had called them to be his people. That is reflected in the OT. So everything that we read is down to Jewish thinking. From Moses teachings and belief that God had given him 10 commandments and various rules and regulations. All that happened to them was, in their thinking, the effect of their actions in their Gods eyes. Much of the OT contains an exaggerated record of violence, often to enhance their position as Gods people. Let me give an example.

'Saul has killed his thousands, and David his ten thousands'. Said when David returned to Jerusalem after killing Goliath.
In their lives neither would have killed that many, unless by proxy. By claiming the victory and attributing all the deaths to their leadership.
At that time David had not even borne arms as a soldier.
It was another way of saying one is greater than the other.

I can give you other exaggerations.

Each Code earlier than the OT (Hammurabi, UrNammu and others) all claim that they were given by 'God'. Thus they were in effect for those of that civilisation. The Pentateuch reflects much of the earlier civilisation codes. If you look at Egyptian culture, religion and rituals
they are reflected in the Hebrew ways. The New Testament begins to show God in a different light. Still a God of Justice but also a God of Love. (Though there are signs of this in the OT).

Jesus teachings, while reflecting much of the OT - as it must as He was talking to his people, the Jews - begins to show that the OT was a foreshadowing of things to come. But that is a subject, long and complicated.

Based on what we know of Jesus life, clues in the Gospels, I believe that Jesus became a Rabbi. That does not mean that he could not have been the Messiah. But again that is another subject.

Basically. What we have in the OT is the Jewish view of God and His interaction with them. Does that make God egomaniacal?
Based one nations 'beliefs'?

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Shirina on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:07 pm

I believe Lincoln Cathederal was the tallest building in the world at one point.
Actually, the largest pyramid of Giza stood as the tallest structure in the world until the Eiffle Tower .... and that was surpassed by the Washington Monument which itself wasn't surpassed until the Chrylser Building in 1930.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Shirina on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:30 pm

Basically. What we have in the OT is the Jewish view of God and His interaction with them. Does that make God egomaniacal?
Actually, yes. God is still egomaniacal independent of the Old Testament. Even if you strip away all of the violence committed directly by God - the flood, killing the first born of Egypt, Soddom and Gamorah, sending bears to kill half a hundred children, etc. we are still left with egomania. While I know this example is OT, it is still held to be binding even today - the first commandment: Thou shall have no other gods before me.

Even the newest NT Christian belief system will tell you that your actions on earth mean very little - it is your worship, praise, and belief in God that makes all the difference. In fact, you can be forgiven for anything. Even Hitler, Stalin, or Hannibal Lechter could be forgiven and spend eternity in paradise just as long as they truly repent. The only unfogiveable sin is blasphemy, of all things. Dare to insult the egomaniac God and you get a reserved seat in the pit of burning brimstone. Even a more modern interpretation of "blasphemy" means a rejection of God, and nothing pisses off an ego like being rejected. God's seeming eternal need for praise and worship is the height of egomania, I might add, and there isn't any way of getting around that.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by snowyflake on Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:57 pm

How do we know that the above is true? What do you base this statement on?

The first commandment of 10 is Thou shalt have no other Gods before me and the following commandments are all about him. If that is not egomaniacal, I don't know what is. We don't get to the don't murder, steal or covet until the end.

My first commandment as a god would be to treat other people the way you wish to be treated followed by don't murder, steal, rape or in other ways hurt other people. And as a god I would outlaw all forms of war which are just governmental justifications of doing all the things the commandments tell you not to do. All the sex business which is none of my business would have no bearing on how I view humans so have fun keeping in mind my first commandment.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:03 pm

aith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.




18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Hypothetically. You are god. You have created a universe for your creation to use and enjoy. Another being comes along and starts to claim falsely to men that he is their god. He offers your creation a life you know will lead to destruction. What do you do?

Please excuse the following example as I believe you are single.
How would a parent feel if someone came along and told their child that they were really their mother or father, tempting them with false facts and documents. Seeking to take away love from the real parents.

There are faults in these simple examples, because we think as human beings, not as 'gods'.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:14 pm

snowyflake wrote:
How do we know that the above is true? What do you base this statement on?

The first commandment of 10 is Thou shalt have no other Gods before me and the following commandments are all about him. If that is not egomaniacal, I don't know what is. We don't get to the don't murder, steal or covet until the end.

My first commandment as a god would be to treat other people the way you wish to be treated followed by don't murder, steal, rape or in other ways hurt other people. And as a god I would outlaw all forms of war which are just governmental justifications of doing all the things the commandments tell you not to do. All the sex business which is none of my business would have no bearing on how I view humans so have fun keeping in mind my first commandment.

by don't murder, steal, rape or in other ways hurt other people.

As these 'commandments' were already in operation in earlier civilisations and around in Moses day, they would hardly be a surprise to the Hebrews.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Guest on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:05 am


Hey, Snowy,

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. You have a private message.

snowyflake wrote:
And there is no book that can prove your belief.
But there are billions of books that provide evidence that the likelihood of Shirina's belief is more probable than the likelihood of yours, Rock.

And yet there is no book that can prove her belief. Further, any evidence provided by any books is subject to scrutiny, assessment, and evaluation by me prior to being accepted as credible evidence by me. I’ll be happy to scrutinize, assess, and evaluate any such evidence presented to me hereon as long as it is (1) referenced, and (2) presented item by item.

snowyflake wrote:
Mankind has the remarkable ability to live in a state of denial and imagination and fantasy as a protective coating for the harsh realities of our existence. That's why we love movies, books and TV. Doesn't make what you see or read 'true' though. It's just nice escapism.

All that you’ve said is true, and all that you’ve said applies to each of the billions of books to which you’ve referred.

snowyflake wrote:
It's so important to live your life happily and fulfilled without the 'idea' of suffering for God's sake.

I don’t suffer for God’s sake. My life is happier and more fulfilled as I serve God, YHVH Elohim.

snowyflake wrote:
So many Christians (and Muslims) think that this life is ONLY for worshipping an egomaniacal God and precludes them from loving all other humans on the planet.

Please read:

Greek Bible

Then one of them, that was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, saying, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”

And Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

But wishing to justify himself, the lawyer said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

And Jesus answering said, “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance a certain priest came down that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.”

“But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came upon him, and when he saw him, he felt compassion for him, and came to him and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.”

“And on the next day when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the innkeeper and said unto him, ‘Take care of him, and whatsoever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.”

“Which of these three do you think was neighbor to the man that fell among the robbers?” And the lawyer said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.”

Then Jesus said to him, “Go, and do likewise.”

Matthew 22:35-40, Luke 10:29-37
Greek Bible

“But when the son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him; and he will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep on his right, and the goats on the left.”

“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘come, you who are blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited me in; naked, and you clothed me; I was sick, and you visited me; I was in prison, and you came to me.’ then the righteous will answer him, ‘lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’ the king will answer and say to them, ‘truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me.’”

“Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘ depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite me in; naked, and you did not clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.’ then they themselves also will answer, ‘lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [a]take care of you?’ then he will answer them, ‘truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’”

Matthew 25:31-45
snowyflake wrote:
My first commandment as a god would be to treat other people the way you wish to be treated followed by don't murder, steal, rape or in other ways hurt other people.

Please read:

Greek Bible

“Therefore, in all things whatsoever, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

Matthew 7:12
Hebrew Bible

And God spoke all these words, saying,

“I am the Lord your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.

“You shall not make unto yourselves any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow yourself down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing loving-kindness to thousands, to those who love me and keep my commandments.

“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

You shall not murder.

“You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Exodus 20:1-17
snowyflake wrote:
No matter what you say, a Christian is automatically in opposition to anyone who is not a Christian.

I am a Christian (sometimes). When I’m a Christian, I am in opposition to no person (read below), in accordance with YHVH Elohim’s desires.

Greek Bible:

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all1 men2 to be saved and to come unto the knowledge3 of the truth4. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men,2 the man2 Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all1…”

1 Timothy 2:3-6

  1. πᾶς, pas, all, every, the whole, everyone.

  2. ἄνθρωπος, anthrōpos, a human being, man.

  3. ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis (from ἐπί, epi, an intensifier, and γνῶσις, gnōsis, knowledge), clear and exact knowledge, thorough participation in the object of the knowledge.

  4. ἀλήθεια, alētheia, true, truly, truth, verity.

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by Red Rackham on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:06 am

Shirina wrote:
I believe Lincoln Cathederal was the tallest building in the world at one point.
Actually, the largest pyramid of Giza stood as the tallest structure in the world until the Eiffle Tower .... and that was surpassed by the Washington Monument which itself wasn't surpassed until the Chrylser Building in 1930.

Wiki also states that the great pyramid of Giza is a 'Structure' rather than a building, which means Lincoln Cathederal was, as stated, the tallest building in the world for 238 years (1311–1549)
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by boatlady on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:17 am

If a building is defined as walls enclosing a space where living people can spend time, I would definitely argue that the Great Pyramid can't be defined as a building. It's not so much walls as a heap of stones, you can go in, but only along passages that are too low for an adult to stand upright,
Was designed to hold a dead body - works OK for that
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:15 pm

Of course the Tower of Babel could have been higher Wink
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 1)

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