Welcome to Cutting Edge. Guests can see and read the contents of most of the boards on this forum but need to become members to read all of them. Currently membership is instant, but new accounts may be deleted if not activated within fourteen days.

If you decide to join the forum, please open your welcome message for further details. New members are requested to introduce themselves on the appropriate thread on our welcome board.

Members may post messages and start threads, but it is essential that they read our posting rules and advice before doing so. If you have any immediate questions or queries, please post them on the suggestions board.

After posting at least ten messages, members are able to contact each other and the staff through our personal messaging system.

This forum is administrated by Ivan and moonbeam and moderated by boatlady and astradt1.

Thank you for visiting Cutting Edge.

The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by skwalker1964 on Thu May 24, 2012 4:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

(This post is taken from my blog, skwalker1964.wordpress.com)

It happened again, in Prime Minister's Questions, yesterday. It was bound to, really. Rebuked by the excellent Speaker of the House, John Bercow, for using insulting, unparliamentary language toward Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls, David Cameron fell back, like an involuntary reflex, on a mantra I can guarantee you will hear in at least 99% of Tory (and most LibDem) interviews on TV or radio, in the press or online.

Withdrawing his comment as instructed, Cameron said:

"I will replace it with 'the man who left us this enormous deficit and this financial crisis'."

And, of course, cue much Tory guffawing and catcalling of the type that only a £25k a year private education can teach.

This (mostly) Tory tactic has been in place since before they were elected, and has continued, unbroken and to the point of nausea, to the present. Listen to any interview, any 'debate' on Newsnight or Question Time (though the Tories like to avoid debate if they can!), and you'll hear some variation of:

'the mess we inherited'

'we're having to clean up Labour's mess'

and so on. Clearly, in order to try to get off the hook of the never-ending run of screw-ups, the Tory PR gurus have drummed this into their politicians until they eat, sleep and breathe 'inherited mess, inherited mess, inherited mess...'

The only tiny problem with all this is this: it's absolutely untrue.

I'm going to try to show you why. It's not really that difficult to see, but a lot of people don't look beyond the mantras and the headlines. Anyone who knows me very well will know that I talk a lot about the 'Big Lie' concept. In a nutshell, this says that the bigger a lie is, and the more emphatically it's spouted, the more people are likely to think, 'Well, they wouldn't dare say it, and especially not like that, if it weren't true!' But of course, it isn't true - that's the whole point. As someone said to me the other day, a plausible lie, shouted loud enough and often enough, usually gets to be taken for the truth.'

Since a picture paints a thousand words and all that, I'm going to use a couple of graphs to illustrate just how untrue this Tory Big Lie is, along with a little commentary. There may be 'lies, damn lies and statistics', but when it comes to nailing a Big Lie, a few objective numbers work wonders.

The 'inherited mess' lie has 2 main parts. The first says that the economic crisis was caused by Labour's overspending. The second says that the resulting 'mountain' of government debt led to such an economic disaster that Dave, George and co had to come galloping in on their big chargers to rescue us with their Magic Sword of Austerity and Competence to clean up the mess and fix our economy.

Let's nail each part of the lie in turn. First, was Labour overspending, and was government debt drastically increasing under Labour? Well, the IMF (see www.scoop.it/t/deficit-myth) say not, and even George Osborne himself, under pressure from Treasury Select Committee members, has to admit it ain't so (see www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK-h4aiuGIs). Now, on to those pictures:

Graph 1 (first time trying this so hope it works!)



This handy graph shows the changes in UK national debt since 1999 (2 years after Labour came to power). It shows something very interesting. In the years from 1999-2002, the UK's national debt SHRANK to the lowest point it has been since well before Labour took over, right through to the present day. In fact, although not shown on this graph, the debt when Labour took power - the 'inherited mess' from the previous Tory government! - was higher than at any time during Labour's tenure until the 2008 global crash.

From 2002, the graph shows a gradual, managed increase, over a period of 6 years, from about 25% to about 35%. This is the period when Labour - as they had promised to do - started to increase investment in great, beloved British institutions like the NHS, as well as in other public services. This gradual increase was no problem - it was controlled, deliberate, affordable. And it was still lower than it had been under the preceding Tory government.

Of course, in 2008, something drastic happened. There was a global financial crisis that hit virtually every country in the world - hard. National debt increased - but, as the IMF report linked above confirms, this increase was NOT due to excessive public spending! National income fell, and this inevitably pushed up the amount of borrowing. But here's another thing - without being in the same kind of sudden meltdown, the misguided austerity policies of the coalition government have kept the debt growth-line steep! That's because those policies are shrinking the national income far further and faster than spending could or should ever be cut. The way out of the current problems is to stimulate growth - and that's not compatible with austerity budget-slashing.

Here's another graph that shows very clearly how Labour did not leave a mess behind for the coalition to clear up:

Graph 2:



Now this one's ever so slightly trickier to read, but bear with me. I want you to focus on the thickness of the very light blue block of the graph at the top. Don't look at how high up it goes, as that's caused by the thickness of the blocks underneath it.

This light-blue block represents UK government debt from 1987-mid 2011, as a percentage of GDP (basically, the amount the whole country earns). The striking thing about this light-blue block is that it hardly changes in thickness at all from 1987 all the way through to the big global financial crash in 2008 (in fact it gets a little thinner during most of Labour's last period in government) - debt stays constant as a factor of GDP, which is perfectly responsible. The first 10 years of that period were under a Tory government. The next 11 were under Labour. If Labour were being profligate in their spending, so were the preceding Tory governments of Thatcher (Queen of Austerity!) and Major, and somewhat more so.

Of course, as already mentioned debt went up during and just after the 2008 crash, because national income went down. You can see the light-blue block thicken at this point. But Tory spending cuts, even without a global 'meltdown', are pushing debt up and making the debt-block fatter. Countries like the USA, who under Barack Obama took a positive approach to stimulate their economy, have experienced growth during the same period that we've increased debt and suffered recession. Unlike Labour, the Tories have no excuse for the increasing national debt under their (mis)management - so they invent one: 'the mess we inherited', and repeat it for all they're worth in the hope of fooling people into believing their Big Lie.

There are other things I could draw out of the 2nd graph, such as the fact that household debt and non-financial companies' debt during the same period grew, but that far and away the big debt-increase problem, as the graph clearly shows, was irresponsible borrowing by financial companies (in other words, NOT the Labour government!), and that in spite of such companies clearly being the cause of our crisis, this Tory government is not curtailing the obscene bonuses the banks etc continue to pay themselves (I guess they need bonuses to console themselves for the destruction they caused!).

And there are other graphs worth looking at. But I think I've made my point and given you enough to chew on for now. So I'll round off, for clarity's sake, by reiterating the key point that all the graphs and words above are there to prove. Which is:

WHEN THIS GOVERNMENT AND ITS REPRESENTATIVES SAY 'THE MESS WE INHERITED' - AS THEY OH SO SURELY WILL - THEY ARE LYING: IT IS A 'BIG (FAT!) LIE'!

They want to fool you, so they can continue wrecking our great country and siphoning our money into the pockets of the so-called elite who pay into Tory party coffers (and Tory ministers' bank accounts, it appears).

Don't let them.
avatar
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down


Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:20 am

Unfortunately the one thing that probably stayed with those involved in the banking collapse was that even when you mess things up that much the taxpayer will still bail you out.

Dan Fante

Posts : 928
Join date : 2013-10-11

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:29 pm

Bellatori wrote:-
I do know that we need to get back to the period 1979 to 1990
 
No thanks! No 
 
1979
VAT increased from 8% to 15%. Interest rates reached 17%. Prescription charge increased from 20p to 45p.
 
1980
Inflation more than doubled in twelve months to 21.9%. National Insurance increased from 6.5% to 6.75%. Link between state retirement pension and average earnings broken. 25% starting rate of income tax abolished. British Steel axed 11,000 jobs in Wales. Unemployment rose to 1.9 million. Prescription charge increased to £1.
 
1981
N.I. up to 7.75%. Personal tax allowances frozen. Tax on beer increased by 24%, tax on petrol increased by 24%, tax on cigarettes increased by 16%. Manufacturing output down 17% since May 1979, the fastest recorded fall in our history. Unemployment exceeded 2.5 million. Riots in Brixton, Southall, Liverpool, Manchester and Bristol.
 
1982
N.I. up to 8.75%. Unemployment over 3 million. After cuts to Royal Navy’s budget for patrols, Argentina invaded Falkland Islands.
 
1983
N.I. increased to 9%. NHS ordered to privatise cleaning, catering and laundry. Tory plan to abolish GLC and replace it with quangos.
 
1984
Tax relief on life assurance premiums abolished.  Miners’ strike with pitched battles at Orgreave and other pits. Chatham Dockyard closed, with the loss of 7,000 jobs. Unions banned from GCHQ. Sarah Tisdall jailed for leaking details on Cruise missile deployment. Clive Ponting charged for leaking details of sinking of the Belgrano.
 
1985
Scope of VAT extended. Currency crisis - about £100 million of foreign reserves lost trying to stabilise sterling. Riots in Handsworth and Brixton. Thatcher boycotted anti-apartheid sanctions on South Africa. Prescription charge reached £2.
 
1986
Treasury abandoned monetarism. Heseltine resigned over Westland affair; Leon Brittan forced to resign over leaking to press, but not investigated by police like Tisdall and Ponting. Government injunction banned ‘Spycatcher’.
 
1987
Black Monday wiped £50 billion off stock market. Thatcher denounced Mandela’s ANC as “a terrorist organisation” at Commonwealth conference. Jeffrey Archer awarded £500,000 damages after lying in court.
 
1988
Poll tax legislation passed with help of hundreds of hereditary peers. First plans to commercialise NHS. Charge introduced for eye tests and dental check-ups. Benefit withdrawn from 16 and 17-year olds, leading to a stream of young homeless.
 
1989
Interest rate raised to 14.75%. Poll tax introduced in Scotland. Housing bubble burst and negative equity began. Water companies privatised.
 
1990
Pound joined ERM at unsustainably high exchange rate. Interest rate reached 15.4%. Riots across England because of poll tax. Nicholas Ridley forced to resign after comparing Helmut Kohl to Hitler. Prescription charge reached £3.05.
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7045
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:50 pm

.... and the recession was not relieved until 1995.

http://econ.economicshelp.org/2008/02/uk-recession-of-1991-92.html
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Bellatori on Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:38 pm

Ivan wrote:
Bellatori wrote:-
I do know that we need to get back to the period 1979 to 1990
 
No thanks! No 
 
That is a somewhat disingenuous of you to truncate my quote and then misapply it. I have been discussing borrowing as a function of current account deficit and not policy. Are you also distancing yourself from Labour in 1998 to 2001 as well? That definitely goes down in my book as pretty shabby. Crying or Very sad 

Bellatori
Banned

Posts : 446
Join date : 2013-10-11
Age : 65
Location : Newcastle

http://www.bellatori.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by bobby on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:18 pm

Beautiful Tori wrote to Ivan.  

Are you also distancing yourself from Labour in 1998 to 2001 as well? That definitely goes down in my book as pretty shabby.

]Ivans very accurate list was from 1979 to 1990, so pray tell why should he then go into 1998 to 2001 when your post did not mention those dates, you definitely said

"Bellatori wrote:-
"I do know that we need to get back to the period 1979 to 1990" and that is precisely where Ivan went.
avatar
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Bellatori on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:43 am

The childish and now clearly somewhat illiterate blobby wrote
bobby wrote:Ivans very accurate list was from 1979 to 1990, so pray tell why should he then go into 1998 to 2001 when your post did not mention those dates, you definitely said "Bellatori wrote:- "I do know that we need to get back to the period 1979 to 1990" and that is precisely where Ivan went.
Had you bothered to read the original post you would have seen the full quote which said

I have no answer but I do know that we need to get back to the periods 1979 to 1990 and from 1998 to 2001.
Cropping off the end dates puts a bias on the meaning that was neither intended nor present in the original. The only way you could write the moronic comment you have is if you had not bothered to check the original post where those dates were mentioned. Pretty lame of you wasn't it?

Bellatori
Banned

Posts : 446
Join date : 2013-10-11
Age : 65
Location : Newcastle

http://www.bellatori.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:24 am

Bellatori. Unlike some members of this forum, I don’t re-post the whole of a person’s message if I only intend to answer one small part of it. There’s nothing either “disingenuous” or “shabby” in my wish to demonstrate that the years 1979-1990 were horrendous (and on a par with the last three and a half years), but I suppose I should have placed a row of dots after 1990 when extracting those words from your post.
 
If anything is “childish”, it’s changing someone’s name to “blobby”; if you disapprove of altering people's usernames, don't do it yourself! It appears that bobby misunderstood the context of your previous post, but that was your fault for causing confusion by repeating this:-
 
Bellatori wrote:-
I do know that we need to get back to the period 1979 to 1990
 
I don’t doubt that your insults will attract the attention of our moderation team. In the meantime, I hope that bobby will resist the temptation to respond to your abuse.
 
Whatever aspect of the years 1979-1990 you might find acceptable, Thatcher’s rule was a disaster for this country. She came to power on the back of those ‘Labour isn’t working’ posters and more than doubled unemployment. Despite adopting monetarism, which aimed to squeeze inflation out of the system, the annual rate of RPI was higher in the last full month before she left office, October 1990 (10.9%), than in the month before she came to power, April 1979 (10.1%). One of her last acts was to sign the pound into the European Exchange Rate Mechanism at an unsustainably high rate of exchange, which caused a recession and resulted in ‘Black Wednesday’ in 1992.
 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asiju4DoCDhScFhNRlEzZTRhRlkxMW9Ra1RfN0ZoWmc#gid=0
 
Now let’s return to your fixation with debt. In the last five years of the Tory government which was booted out of office in 1997, the debt-to-GDP ratio rose from 31.4% in 1992 to 42.5% in 1997. Far from “driving through any red traffic lights”, Gordon Brown reduced the ratio to 35.9% by 2007, just before the financial system went into meltdown. The ensuing rise in the deficit was fuelled, not by reckless public spending, but by the sums needed to bail out the banks and the collapse of tax revenues caused by the recession.
 
Treasury data shows that before the recession, public sector current spending was 38% of GDP – which was lower than in eight of Thatcher's eleven years in office. Richard Graham argues that “the Labour governments of Blair and Brown were quite prudent and on any measure the level of government borrowing was always manageable.  In general the golden rule of borrowing to finance investment in Britain was adhered to.  The financial crisis of 2008 was a world economic event which affected many countries in many ways, and we with our huge financial sector more than most.  Added to which we had created a mountain of private debt backed by business and domestic assets.”
 
When Osborne became chancellor in 2010, he said that the benchmark on which he wanted to be judged was keeping our triple A status. When he lost it, Cable tried to tell us that it didn’t really matter, and apart from the possibility of having to pay slightly higher rates of interest on loans, he might be right. As Graham points out, most of the public debt is owned by us: “In all sorts of ways through many financial instruments, the British people actually owe themselves the national debt. The interest that we pay on it is paid largely to us. That interest payment helps to bolster our pension funds and provides income for those with government investments. To represent the annual expenditure on interest payments as in some way being a waste is a complete misunderstanding of the way in which financial markets actually operate.”
 
Government debt has existed since the Napoleonic Wars. It has never been paid off and we can live with it for ever, so I’d try not to lose any sleep over it if I were you.
 
http://www.richardgraham.me/politics/great-tory-lie-national-debt/
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7045
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by bobby on Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:38 pm

I don’t doubt that your insults will attract the attention of our moderation team. In the meantime, I hope that bobby will resist the temptation to respond to your abuse.

Many thanks Ivan for putting our resident computer repairman right about how to spell my name, I'm sure it must have been a typo as how could someone with half a brain misspell a two syllable word and I'm sure that childish name calling is beneath him wherever that might be?
avatar
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:29 pm

I wonder how many sick-bags Tory apologists must get through in a day?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Mel on Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:19 pm

Labour not responsible for crash, says former Bank of England governor
29 Dec 2014: Mervyn King says there was shared intellectual responsibility across political parties for failing to foresee problems

The Guardian today. (politics)

You won't read this in the Tory rags, now will you?

Come on Ed and Ed, get this across to the public day after day until the election to counter the daily Tory blame for " Labours mess"
avatar
Mel

Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:12 pm

" shared intellectual responsibility across political parties for failing to foresee problems "

How true, how very very true!  

In 2007 Alex Salmond had written to the (now discredited) Chief Executive of The Royal Bank of Scotland Sir (but not "Sir"any more) Fred Goodwin, saying "I would like to offer any assistance my office can provide.  Good luck with the bid.." in connection with Goodwin's take-over of ABN Amro Bank which just over a year later collapsed under the weight of defaulting American sub-prime mortgages.

Incidentally, our Bankers haven't learned much from the 2008 Credit Crunch. CityLink transport went into liquidation over Christmas, and 2,700 employees are on the dole. The taxpayer will pick up the tab for redundancy pay. Watch your newspaper to find out which banks will also now be thinking about money loaned to the current owners of the business.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Mel on Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:35 pm

Indeed OW the banks have learned little. They need global governments regulation which Brown so desperately tried to achieve. The banks are stronger than the governments, therefore the idea of this is impossible.
Mervyn King has expressed exactly what I was attempting to say several years ago on this forum headed "The credit crunch, a global crisis or not?"

The Labour Party must use this statement by King in every way they can as the Tory media/press will not highlight it.
avatar
Mel

Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Ivan on Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:24 am

Will we ever see a Thatcher of the left? Peter Hain and Will Hutton on Labour’s potential for reform

Extracts from an article by George Eaton:-

The financial crisis was a moment of optimism for the left. The form of capitalism that had reigned for three decades was held to have been so discredited that change was inevitable. Just as the postwar consensus evaporated in the 1970s, it was thought that the long wave of neoliberalism would retreat.

The ensuing seven years have shown how misguided these hopes were. Through a supreme act of political conjuring, the right redefined a crisis of banking as one of debt. It is against this backdrop that Peter Hain and Will Hutton ask how the left can be regenerated. They write with respect for New Labour’s achievements: the minimum wage, devolution, the improvement of public services and the large reductions in child and pensioner poverty. Both locate its defining failure in its unwillingness to challenge the economic settlement it inherited.  

In opposition to Cameron, who has perpetuated the myth that “big government” got us “into this mess”, Hain and Hutton contend that only an active state can get us out. The task is to reshape the economy so that it better serves the twin objectives of prosperity and equality. The best means of restoring the public finances to health is not austerity but growth through investment; where growth cannot fill the gap, the priority should be tax rises. Hain proposes a financial transaction tax, the abolition of the upper earnings limit for national insurance and the extension of stamp duty to football transfer fees. Hutton, in common with Hain, recognises Labour as the only vehicle for such reforms.


For the whole article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/will-we-ever-see-thatcher-left-peter-hain-and-will-hutton-labour-s-potential-reform
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7045
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by boatlady on Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:22 am

Haven't yet read the whole article - but I confess the thought of a 'Thatcher of the Left' fills me with horror.

I would imagine someone maybe a bit like Stalin - extreme ideology, extreme measures to control and silence dissent, corruption in the higher echelons and throughout the body politic. A strong leader presiding over a crumbling state.

To my mind, any strongly ideological government is going to result in the above - ideology always involves a degree of dishonesty, as theories and dogma can never accurately reflect the changing reality of life as it is lived within civil societies.

I remember Harold Wilson being criticised in the '60's because he was reflective and slow and seemed to see any problem from many sides - in this, he looked a bit less dynamic than Enoch Powell - who of course had a strong belief and a simple message - I know which of those men was better fitted to lead the country
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3712
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Ivan on Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:53 am

Nobody is advocating a dictator like Stalin. Although Thatcher chose to befriend brutal despots like Pinochet, abolished councils that she didn’t like, and did her best to crush any opposition to her, she never succeeded in escaping the democratic process and was forced out, without bloodshed, by her own party. Stalin would never have been removed that easily!

George Eaton’s article concludes: “That the times demand a new Attlee, or a Thatcher of the left, is without doubt. What is not is whether one will yet emerge”.  Earlier he wrote, referring to Peter Hain and Will Hutton’s recent books, that “no British leader in recent times has better represented their social-democratic aspirations than Ed Miliband”. I think they'd just like a government with the vision, purpose and direction which the UK saw post-1945.
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7045
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by boatlady on Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:02 am

I suspect Miliband, if he gets the chance, will be principled, but pragmatic, strong, but capable of being flexible, and he definitely appears to have a vision and a set of ideals.

Maybe he can be the one?
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3712
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:17 pm

Whoever leads the nation next May will have to deal with the situation as they find it. We should be resigned to the likelihood that things will inevitably get worse before they get better.

Undoing some of the Tory knitting will have a cost - it always does. Ed Miliband can only be as strong as the people around him but Win, Lose or Draw he remains infinitely more desirable than any of the alternatives.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Mel on Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:48 pm

Ed HAS to be the one, otherwise we will all inherit the Tory mess with much worse to follow.
Of course when I say"ALL" I mean the majority and not the rich which goes without saying
avatar
Mel

Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by boatlady on Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:17 pm

Perhaps the 5 year parliament will be in Ed's favour if he gets to be PM - as you say, OW, there will be more pain before there will be relief
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3712
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Ivan on Sat May 30, 2015 9:32 pm

The tyranny of mere wealth is destroying our democracy

From an article by Michael Sheen:-

The election campaign was one drenched and distorted by fear. Fear of the Scots, fear of immigrants, fear of fiscal irresponsibility, fear of bacon sandwiches. Since the global banking disaster of 2007-8, the economic situation has caused a great deal of fear in the UK and the programme of austerity implemented in reaction to it has caused and continues to cause a great deal more. Nevertheless, the coalition government pushed their programme through, along with the narrative that they were cleaning up after their opponents’ wanton and reckless spending.

The clue to the real situation is in the word “global”. You’d be hard-pressed to find anyone outside Britain who would listen to you trying to pin the financial crisis on the Labour government without nervously backing away as if they were being told that it was a secret race of Lizard People wot done it. And yet, a significant proportion of people in Britain are prepared to believe just that. That Labour and the Lizard People brought down the world financial mechanism by spending too much. Spending that the Conservative Party in opposition agreed with every single step of the way.

That same Labour government can be severely criticised for not creating regulation that would have reined in the excesses and sharp practices of the banking world. Regulation that the current Tory government would now be in the process of dismantling. The banking crisis happened because there wasn’t enough regulation in place to contain the lust for profit over and above any sense of responsibility to anything else, and the Conservatives want even less of it.


For the whole article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/michael-sheen-tyranny-mere-wealth-destroying-our-democracy
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7045
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by oftenwrong on Sat May 30, 2015 10:50 pm

It continues. There was some dribbling Tory spokesperson on BBC Radio on Friday complaining about the difficult situation they had inherited.

They must have it tattooed on the insides of their eyelids.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Mel on Sat May 30, 2015 11:21 pm

I agree with Mr Sheen in all that he has said except regarding his point on "Labour government can be severely criticised for not creating regulation"
In fear of repeating myself here, the fact is that Thatcher de-regulated the banking sector within her de-regulation of the financial sector. This was done and accepted by the banks with open arms, the idea was to create more tax revenues lost by her decimation of our manufacturing base. Gordon Brown brought in the FSA wich was able to regulate Insurance brokers, financial advisers and money lenders, to protect the public from unscrupulous agents. However, he tried for years to get other international governments to regulate the banking sectors worldwide, which would have prevented bank to bank lending, which created a mass of money to lend here and internationally. This resulted in the crisis, as Brown fail the impossible task of governments to be strong enough to regulate their banks. They failed because the banks were too strong and fought tooth and nail to stay de-regulated. Lehmans, the US bank and the largest in the world was allowed to go bust by President Bush. This created fear in all markets and an instant run on banks started as we saw with Northern Rock here in the UK.
Labour had very good economy growth for some years and spent on our infrastructure which most political parties do and have done here and  internationallyfor many years, nothing unusal about that.The outgoing Tories under Major had left our infrastructure badly wanting. Had Lehmans not gone under, then we would not have had a crisis to contend with.
This was never put over by Labour properly within the last 5yrs. They decided to accept that "Labour made mistakes and should have regulated the banks" and blamed Brown. That was a bad error to say that and it was untrue as regulation had become impossible.
The same applied when Labour admiited they allowed so many immigrants in again they said it was their error, when they should have rammed the fact down voters throats that the EU dictates this.

Finally IMO the nail in their coffin was "we will also have to take austerity measures"


Last edited by Mel on Sat May 30, 2015 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Mel

Posts : 1703
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by bobby on Sat May 30, 2015 11:23 pm

Then Labour should immediately attack them with a strong denial, plus facts supporting said denial. Not wait until 4 weeks before the next GE with a half hearted and feeble election strategy if in fact there was one?
avatar
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by boatlady on Sun May 31, 2015 7:17 pm

Also, I've never heard it pointed out that austerity policies are actually costing MORE than all the alleged Labour overspending
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3712
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:58 am



A tempting response is mentioned by Douglas Adams (in Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy: The restaurant at the end of the Universe.)
 
"He's taking a year off as dead - for tax purposes."
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Ivan on Wed May 10, 2017 12:15 am

Maybe I should have posted this tweet from a Tory idiot on the 'no comment' thread......  scratch


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-ABlfYWAAAg7qh.jpg
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7045
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by boatlady on Wed May 10, 2017 7:51 am

lol!
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3712
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Will your Council Tax bill be the same next year?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:30 pm

The costs arising from the Grenfell Tower disaster may affect many local authorities.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/grenfell-tower-cladding-scandal-could-cost-councils-millions-after-government-says-no-guarantee-of-extra-funding/ar-BBDmi3M?li=AA54rU&ocid=iehp
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11752
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by boatlady on Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:56 pm

And this, along with continuing local authority cuts, may create the perfect storm - we hope
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3712
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: The myth of the 'inherited mess', and the myth of the 'clean up'

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum