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Constitutional monarchy or republic?

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Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by witchfinder on Fri May 25, 2012 10:17 am

First topic message reminder :

This topic or subject is actualy about the head of state of the United KIngdom and 15 other independent sovereign nations including Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

If this particular thread was about the head of state of say France or the United States, then instead of been slotted into "General Discussion", it would have been more appropriate to put the topic into "Politics", but of course our head of state is above politics and represents no political party, and in my view thats what makes the constitutional monarchy a superior system.

In 1981 this question was put to me: "are you a true and loyal supporter of the British Crown and constitution", and my reply was "yes" I am, and in doing so I actualy made an oath of loyalty not to any politician, but to The Crown, the people and the nation.

The Crown and the monarchy are not democratic in the sense that no one ever elects them, but then again what system, or which sytem of government is truly fair and democratic ?, in the United States 45% of serving soldiers, airforce staff and sailors voted Republican in 2008, yet they have to swear alliegence to President Obama, in many unstable nations this situation is a recipe for civil war.

Today ( 25th May 2012 ) the latest opinion poll has been published in the UK on the subject of the monarchy, the findings have been released just prior to nationwide celebrations for the Diamond Jubilee celebrations of Queen Elizabeth II.

The first thing to point out about this opinion poll is that the monarchy enjoys solid support amongst Labour voters and supporters, the Queen and the institution of the monarchy has never been so popular.
Support is strong in Scotland, Wales, all areas of England and in every age group and social class, but the findings are not good reading for Charlie, most people feel the line of succession should jump a generation and go to William.

Should TRUE Labour supporters be embaressed about been a supporter of the Queen and the monarchy ?, I say absolutely not, it is clearly obvious that to go down the path of republicanism would lose both support and votes, just as it did to the SNP in Scotland.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/may/24/queen-diamond-jubilee-record-support

And so as my next door neighbour who is chairman of the local Conservative club puts out his flags for the celebrations, so shall I, and as a Labour supporter and voter we are both equal in one nation under one Crown.

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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:19 pm

".... a system wherein the best of the bloodline is selected as crown prince/princess regardless of birth order or gender."

How should marks be awarded in order to make that selection?

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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by ROB on Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:08 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
".... a system wherein the best of the bloodline is selected as crown prince/princess regardless of birth order or gender."

How should marks be awarded in order to make that selection?

Dunno. However it’s done, it should be done so that Andrew scores higher than that embarrassment to your entire Commonwealth that now holds the title “crown prince.”
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by astradt1 on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:47 pm

How close to the Falklands did the HMS Invisible get before the ceasefire was called?
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by ROB on Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:20 am

Falklands War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

… whilst the two aircraft carriers Invincible and Hermes, in the company of escort vessels, left Portsmouth only a day later [4 April 1982].[24]

Meanwhile, other Argentine aircraft were intercepted by BAE Sea Harriers operating from HMS Invincible. A Dagger (piloted by Osvaldo Ardiles' cousin José[60]) and a Canberra were shot down.

An SAS reconnaissance team was dispatched to carry out preparations for a seaborne infiltration. A Westland Sea King helicopter carrying the assigned team took off from HMS Invincible on the night of 17 May, but bad weather forced it to land 50 miles (80 km) from its target and the mission was aborted.[70]

The Argentine Navy used their last AM39 Exocet missile attempting to attack HMS Invincible on 30 May. There are Argentinean claims that the missile struck;[79][80] however the British have denied this, some citing that HMS Avenger shot it down.[81][82]

References

24. "A Chronology of events during the Falklands Conflict of 1982". Falkland Islands Information. http://www.falklands.info/history/82timeline.html. Retrieved 24 December 2011.  
60. "Argentine Air Force remembers its "baptism of fire" twenty years on". En.mercopress.com. 1 May 2002. http://en.mercopress.com/2002/05/01/argentine-air-force-remembers-its-baptism-of-fire-twenty-years-on. Retrieved 9 June 2010.
70. Evans, Michael; Hamilton, Alan (27 June 2005). "Thatcher in the dark on sinking of Belgrano". The Times. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article537842.ece  
79. "Argentine Aircraft in the Falklands". Britains-smallwars.com. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/Exocet.html. Retrieved 7 February 2010.  
80. "Argentine Air Force – Group 5". Skyhawk.org. http://www.skyhawk.org/2e/argentina/argentina-af4th5th.htm. Retrieved 7 February 2010.  
81. "Super Etendard". Operationcorporate.com. 29 May 2007. http://www.operationcorporate.com/p1_equipment_super_etendard.php. Retrieved 7 February 2010.  
82. "HMS Yarmouth, Captains Diary". Archived from the original on 21 March 2009. http://web.archive.org/web/20090321152518/http://www.hms-yarmouth.com/falklands/captains%20diary.htm  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:23 pm

The definitive history of "The Falklands Conflict" is here:





The 1982 Falklands War and Its Aftermath
Sir Lawrence Freedman
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:03 pm

Rock wrote:-
Andrew scores higher than that embarrassment to your entire Commonwealth that now holds the title “crown prince.”
That’s hardly much of a recommendation. Neither of them is fit to be head of state, but then how can we expect that quality of anyone who lands in a position through accident of birth? You're so lucky, you are allowed to choose your head of state, as you've just done this week.

Your support for Andrew Windsor sounds like part of a race to the bottom. Presumably if you think that serving in the British forces means that somebody can be excused later excesses, you also recommend Ian Smith, the last white leader of what is now Zimbabwe? Smith served in the Southern Rhodesian Air Force and British Royal Air Force during the Second World War, but he never allowed non-white people into the political parties which he led. He was also the Prime Minister of a government which used biological and chemical weapons against its black citizens.
http://www.africamaat.com/IMG/pdf/Bacterial_and_Chemical_War_in_Zimbabwe.pdf

(Before anyone takes us further off the subject – yes, Mugabe turned out to be even worse, but that’s still not an argument for Smith.)

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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:46 pm

Queen Elizabeth is not of course the first female British monarch, and there have also been under-age inheritors. As Royalty was established and then maintained at the point of a sword, Plan "B" was to appoint a King's or Queen's Champion to answer any challenge or insult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Champion

The full ceremony, in all its glory, was last performed in 1821 when Sir Henry Dymoke acted as Champion at the coronation of George IV. Since Richard II, in 1377, there has been a Dymoke officiating at the coronations of 25 Kings and Queens of England. The current Honourable Queens Champion, Colonel John Marmion Dymoke MBE, was present in his office at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953. His eldest son, heir to the title, is a Chartered Accountant.



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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by ROB on Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:25 pm


Ivan,

Right now you are one rather old heartbeat from speaking of King Charles in the present tense. One rhetorical question: Is that a good thing?

You are locked into this fate if your country insists upon keeping its current bloodline monarchy. My support is not for Andrew; my support is for sufficient alteration of your system to disallow the now automatic ascension of the village embarrassment to your throne. At least Andrew isn’t a coward, no matter his other shortcomings.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:45 pm

Rock. I assumed you knew my views on hereditary monarchy. It smacks of feudalism, it demands deferment and has no place whatsoever in a true democracy, where any member of the country can aspire to become head of state.

Please don't talk about "old heartbeats", knowing what you know....lol Sad
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:22 pm

" in this world
nothing is certain
but death and taxes."
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by ROB on Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:56 am


Ivan,

I live in a nation unhindered by bloodline monarchies that achieved their “preferred” status via nigh unto brutality and bloodshed. English history aggravated my already rampant emotional imbalance my and tested my endurance with idiocy like the War of the Roses. And just how many heads were lopped off? And why can’t “preferred” folks come up with their own names? Henry the twenty-fourth, George the sixty-seventh, “Lawd hab mucy!”

So when you’re preaching against hereditary monarchy, you’re preaching to the choir. I’m putting forth something modeled after a West African system of chiefs wherein the current chief’s successor was the man deemed most worthy by the nation. I don’t know the mechanism whereby this was achieved, but I seem to remember that a consensus was required. The current chief’s oldest son certainly wasn’t the automatic successor.

I followed the outright gorgeous (in all ways) Michaëlle Jean throughout her service as Governor General of Canada. From what I can gather from this side of the border, she served her nation because We the People of Canada called her to serve. King Charles, in stark contrast, will “serve”, or be served, because he happened to pop out of a certain womb. Without endorsing the system, one cannot deny that King Andrew sounds a whole lot less worse than King Charles. That being said, if your monarch were selected like the Governor General of Canada is selected, with bloodline preference kicked to the curb, perhaps your monarchy would be of value.  
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:14 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
" ....something modeled after a West African system of chiefs wherein the current chief’s successor was the man deemed most worthy by the nation.

(Old saying, "Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.")

Extrapolating forward to Western Nations adopting a West African musical tradition would probably mean the death of Pop Music as we know it, because the vast majority in our society is based upon human mating customs. There are almost no popular songs whose lyrics and/or title do not refer specifically or obliquely to LOVE.

What we call "World Music" however will probably be based on extolling a Nation's history and the exploits of its Gods or heroes. Not much attention to overactive hormones there.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:59 pm

Where there's a Wills , there's a way...

(msn)

" I'm so glad you're feeling better, darling- but I did warn you to avoid the Corgi Jalfrezi..."
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:41 pm

Meanwhile, not far away, at HMS Belfast ....

"One is a Grandfather."
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:19 pm

Prince Charles's £700m estate accused of tax avoidance

"HMRC has been asked to investigate alleged tax avoidance by Prince Charles's £700m hereditary estate.

The duchy of Cornwall last year provided Charles with an income of £18m and HMRC's anti-avoidance group is now being asked to examine its non-payment of corporation tax following a potentially significant court ruling on its legal status."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/14/prince-charles-estate-tax-avoidance?CMP=twt_gu
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by boatlady on Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:28 pm

I've made my mind up - republic, please - sick of paying for this useless shower
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:00 pm

Fair enough, but don't imagine that a Presidency would be any cheaper. Have a look across the Channel at The Elysee Palace, the gorgeously-uniformed ceremonial guard, the fleet of limousines, the gilded halls etc., etc., which are a close approximation to Buckingham Palace.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:00 pm

Is this just about money? Or are there some principles involved here? That anyone in a so-called democracy should be able to aspire to become head of state? That what you achieve on your own merits should count for more than accident of birth? That maybe voters should be given the opportunity to change their head of state every few years?
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by boatlady on Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:19 pm

I hear you, Ivan.
Republics do have their problems (as what in life doesn't?) but it's certainly more possible to work towards an egalitarian ideal if there isn't a whole gang of people born to wealth, privilege and power.
While we're at it I'm going to wish for free universal education and health care - let's get everyone sharing the same benefits - maybe we'll all end up healthier and better educated.
Hope Father Christmas is listening
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:01 pm

"Is this just about money?"

Some of the contributors to this thread seem to have that aspect in their thoughts.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:45 pm

Hollywood photo artist Danny Evans has fun "reversing" the appearance of celebrities, so as to render them as rather like most of us:






http://celebrity.uk.msn.com/features/celeb-make-unders-the-stars-if-they-werent-famous
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by boatlady on Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:33 pm

That's quite a disturbing image, really
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Disturbing indeed. It's painful to acknowledge how readily we accept "Celebrity" at its face value, when often it's little more than Good PR allied to the arts of cosmetics and tailoring.

In my mis-spent youth it was fashionable to have posters of well-known people sitting on the toilet, for debunking purposes.

But the dream machines roll on, and why not?
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:37 pm

Sure as hell looks like the couple next door... Shocked
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:52 pm

Oh, so you're in SW1W 0AE too, Phil. Give us a wave.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:08 pm

Not after you just walked by and didn't give me the change I pleaded for so politely... Crying or Very sad
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:19 pm

Only because you couldn't split a tenner.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:37 pm

Slightly suspicious of that picture of George V on it, to be honest....

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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:49 pm

It's your fault you smudged it.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by boatlady on Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:06 pm

In my mis-spent youth it was fashionable to have posters of well-known people sitting on the toilet, for debunking purposes.

I had one of Frank Zappa - in the toilet (but I think he'd endorsed that one)
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:48 pm

Tory orchestration of THE FUNERAL is making the Churchill planting look a bit casual.

If Cameron and his cohorts prove so exuberant on the day as to upstage The Queen and her entourage, they may live to regret it.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:17 am

Caroline Lucas MP: "This is not a democracy"


Source: YouTube
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by boatlady on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:07 pm

He is something
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:13 am

When the royal baby is born will any politician dare to be a modern Keir Hardie?
 
Extracts from an article by Tom London:-
 
According to opinion polls, there has been for decades a fairly constant 20% of the population who would like to replace the monarchy with an elected head of state, but no mainstream politician speaks for those millions of Britons. Some politicians may be closet republicans but stay quiet as they are fearful that they would pay too high a price if they ever challenged the prevailing consensus on royalty.

That suffocates debate and leads to an attitude of unthinking deference and self-censorship which smacks of attitudes to leaders in North Korea. Recently the Queen received a 5% pay rise and it was announced that £1million of public money had been spent to renovate William and Kate’s accommodation yet, even at this time of austerity and acute hardship, no mainstream politician breathed a word of criticism.

Back in 1894, when the future Edward VIII was born, Keir Hardie spoke in the Commons:

"From his childhood onwards this boy will be surrounded by sycophants and flatterers by the score – and will be taught to believe himself as of a superior creation. A line will be drawn between him and the people whom he is to be called upon some day to reign over. …and the end of it all will be that the country will be called upon to pay the bill."

Hardie spoke a century after the French Revolution, with its novel idea that all men are born equal. No institution stands so completely in opposition to that noble idea as does monarchy. The central principle of monarchy is that some people are superior to others as a result merely of their birth or marriage.

 
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2013/07/when-the-royal-baby-is-born-will-any-politician-dare-to-be-a-modern-keir-hardie/
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:35 pm

Charlie's not been getting a good Press recently since he started dabbling in Property Investment.
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:15 pm

Prince Charles accused of 'dodging around for tax purposes'
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/15/prince-charles-tax-duchy-cornwall?CMP
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:07 pm

The Duchy of Cornwall was created to provide The Black Prince with some pocket-money.

Plus ça change
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:47 am

A message from Natalie Bennett, the leader of the Green Party:-
 
"I congratulate the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge on the birth of their son, and also the estimated 1,982 other parents in the UK who today also celebrated the birth of a child.

I hope all of the children have a healthy, fulfilling, financially secure life.

I hope that by the time this child comes of age, with the right to vote at age 16, that the hereditary principle will have disappeared from all aspects of the constitution. The new baby might then have the same civil rights and fiscal obligations as all other citizens.

I would wish the baby the same chance to become a democratically elected head of state as any other individual."

 
http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/07/green-leader-natalie-bennett-gently-trolls-the-royal-baby/
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:02 pm



Well-known couple have baby.  Is that it?
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by boatlady on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:17 pm

Natalie Bennett sounds like my kind of person
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

Post by Ivan on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:37 pm

boatlady. I like Natalie Bennett, who followed me on Twitter, so of course I followed back (@natalieben). The Green Party is a republican party with many good ideas – but outside of Brighton, it’s unlikely to beat the Tories and thereby help to remove the scum from office.
 
The first principle of a hereditary monarchy is that the rest of us must never get above our station in life. According to Charles Windsor, it takes “natural ability” (not accident of birth?) to be head of state. Sounds as if the pompous dipstick has ruled himself out of the job then.
 
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/prince-s-blast-at-people-who-get-above-their-station-1-562530
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Re: Constitutional monarchy or republic?

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