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God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

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God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Tue May 29, 2012 9:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits.

Omnipotent is defined in part as having power or authority without limits IOW, almighty.

Seems to me that God has a few limits.

He cannot reproduce true.
He cannot enjoy sex.
He cannot reproduce without bestiality or cross species breeding.
He can only reproduce half breed chimeras like Jesus.
He could not create a heaven without Satan.
He could not create Eden without evil in it.
He cannot control wayward demons or devils.
He cannot sin, although scripture says he does.
He cannot live without needs like adoration, honour, obedience, love.
He cannot accept a soul into heaven without us accepting Jesus and human sacrifice.
He could not forgive sin without having Jesus sacrificed.
Feel free to add to this list.

How then can Christians say that God omnipotent, all-powerful and without limits when he clearly has many?

Regards
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:36 pm

Yes.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by blueturando on Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:14 pm

History is just that, a series of stories that show how stupid man has always been and who never learns

Polyglide.....I see your fall into the catagory you've mentioned.

When there is overwhelming evidence that Man has been around for hundreds of thousands of years, why do you say otherwise? I thought you said you were seeking the truth?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:06 pm

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils

Smithsonian Institute

Try Neanderthalensis
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Shirina on Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:22 pm

I'm not even going to argue over whether or not Man has been around longer than 12,000 years. Most of us know full well what the scientific evidence says, and I don't buy into some nonsensical superstitious fairy story like "the devil put fossils in the earth to mislead us." I mean, seriously ...

We can argue things like evolution, the Big Bang, how life began, etc. because those are ambiguous topics with no clear-cut answers. But the evidence for Mankind's old age is overwhelming and irrefutable. One may as well argue over how wet water is. Utterly pointless.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by astra on Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:36 pm

Intresting Shirina, and Hello.

In the Cornwall tin mines of the early 1900's, the miners were toiling under the Atlantic Ocean, and were payed extra money for working in such a hazardous and wet environment. If the water encroached from the roof of the workings, (ie. brine) it was classed as WET WATER and they were payed the extra. However, if the water came from an underground lake, or stream, (fresh) it was classed as DRY WATER and, although they were sodden wet, were NOT paid the extra.

I found that in a "History of the Cornish Pasty"
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:35 pm


There are no extant date-and-time-stamped videos which document man’s appearance within existence. Accordingly, any absolute statement as to the exact date and time of man’s appearance are unsupportable. And that’s a fact.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Shirina on Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:24 am

There are no extant date-and-time-stamped videos which document man’s appearance within existence. Accordingly, any absolute statement as to the exact date and time of man’s appearance are unsupportable. And that’s a fact.
Yes we can argue about the age of Man plus or minus a few hundred thousand years. But it is positively silly to believe that we've only been around for 10 to 12 thousand years. Believing in God is one thing, believing in all of the religious folktales is another thing altogether. Believing in a young earth takes more faith than believing in a supernatural divine being. God gave us a brain for a reason, and it wasn't just to sit around worshiping.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:20 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
There are no extant date-and-time-stamped videos which document man’s appearance within existence. Accordingly, any absolute statement as to the exact date and time of man’s appearance are unsupportable. And that’s a fact.
Shirina wrote:
Yes we can argue about the age of Man plus or minus a few hundred thousand years.

Since I wasn’t “there” and I’ve no extant date-and-time-stamped videos of the “event” hanging out in my attic, that argument is interesting but inherently irresolvable.

Shirina wrote:
But it is positively silly to believe that we've only been around for 10 to 12 thousand years.

No it’s not. Absence of date-and-time-stamped videos works both ways, rendering any position unable to be proven by means of direct evidence.

Shirina wrote:
Believing in God is one thing…

That’s the starting point. Until one believes that YHVH Elohim is YHVH Elohim, the “rest of the story” is irrelevant. Perhaps that’s why the first verse of the first chapter of the Hebrew Bible established the identity of YHVH Elohim.

Shirina wrote:
Believing in a young earth takes more faith than believing in a supernatural divine being.

Genesis 1:1 speaks not of “a supernatural divine being.” Genesis 1:1 speaks of YHVH Elohim. I stand ready, lo these twenty-two months subsequent to my first offer, to study Genesis 1:1 with you. If you finally take the offer seriously, at least you’ll know that I (and perhaps) others speak not of a worthless, powerless trinket such as “a supernatural divine being” when I/we speak of YHVH Elohim, translated LORD God.

Shirina wrote:
God gave us a brain for a reason, and it wasn't just to sit around worshiping.

True. Ha adama cannot be created male and female in the image of Elohim without having been given a brain with which to think.


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:37 am

"Tell it to The Marines" is a familiar expression which had its origin in the ubiquitous presence of a Marine detachment on every Naval vessel to keep order on board, and defend the ship from marauders. They built up a considerable knowledge of the world, and knew of many things never seen or experienced by landlubbers.

Accordingly someone telling a tall tale would be invited to try it out on the Marines to see if they would believe it.

Arguing about God's limitations inevitably invites use of that expression.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:50 am

If you read the latest regarding the past you will see that no other being prior to the past 12,000 years has the same DNA or other relevant associated matters that would indicate that man was present before that time.

There were similar beings but none that could be classed as nor the originators of the present humans.

And there is no history either.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:13 pm

polyglide wrote:If you read the latest regarding the past you will see that no other being prior to the past 12,000 years has the same DNA or other relevant associated matters that would indicate that man was present before that time.

There were similar beings but none that could be classed as nor the originators of the present humans.

And there is no history either.

If you read the latest regarding the past you will quickly confuse your Readers' temporal perception.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Shirina on Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:12 pm

There were similar beings but none that could be classed as nor the originators of the present humans.
Chimpanzee and human DNA are 98% identical. That's more than just "similar."

Of course, if they were 100% identical, then a chimp and a human would be, well .... the same thing, virtually indistinguishable from each other. Therefore, hunting down human DNA in anything but a human is just asking for an epic fail.

And there is no history either.

Australian aboriginal artifacts date back to 40,000+ years, cave paintings in France go back at least 25,000 years. The oldest city unearthed (so far) is Gobekli Tepe in Turkey going back 11,000 years. Of course there's no history since any sign of civilization - even an advanced one - would have been scoured away by the last ice age. Only the equatorial regions would remain unscathed, and that region of the planet isn't known for it's large cities and civilizations even today.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by astra on Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:08 pm

Odd this should turn up today!

SO! How long were they in AFRICA before they migrated to Asia??

Bloomin' immigrants, is there NO end? Shocked



http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/news/world/2012/07/04/ancient_tribe_gets_legal_protection

The Jarawas are among the world's most ancient people, with many still hunting with bows and arrows and rubbing stones together to make fire. Scientists believe they were among the first people to migrate from Africa to Asia around 70,000 years ago.
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Is becoming like God good or evil?

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:25 pm

Is becoming like God good or evil?

I would like to restrict giving God any other attribute except for knowing good and evil in this thread. Just for simplicity.

I have two quotes I would like you to consider.

“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.”

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

Knowing good and evil is the same as developing or gaining a moral sense. This is something that all governments and religions wish to develop in us and seems like a good idea to me.

If being perfect like God means that we must have the knowledge of good and evil, then Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of knowledge ---- if they were to accomplish what most seem to think is a worthy goal. Morals. As God says in Eden, such is to have your eyes opened. A good thing IOW.

In the Jewish view, A & E did the right thing and they name it our elevation. In the Christian view, they did the wrong thing and call it our fall.

Is becoming as Gods, in the moral sense, good or evil?

If evil, please explain what is evil about developing a moral sense and following scriptures that tell us to be as Gods.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:22 pm

Any suggestion that chimps have any relevance to the evolution of man has been disproved on countless points and the fact that their DNA is near to that of man is irrelevant it might just as well be 99% away.

Even plants have their own DNA and with the millions of different species of both animal and plant life it is obvious that some will have DNA close to others but meaningless in any other way.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:49 pm

Good and Evil.

Had we not been given any choice in what we decide to do in life the matter of good and evil would never have arrisen.

In most cases when we are discussing these matters we always fail to take into consideration the Devil and temptation.

Drop the capital D from the Devil and you can see where evil came from.

It is vertually impossible for any human to go through life without in some way sinning even if actual evil is not involved.

There are too many temptations put in our way to make it easy to sin and very hard not to

If you look around the present state of the world you will see vertually every day actions of the human race that one could not realistically put into terms that express the degregation that they have decended to.

Evil in some cases would be putting it mildly.

And yet we are supposed to progress towards better circumstances and better understanding between nations and individuals.

In terms of technology and allied subjects we have done more in tne past 100 years, than in the previous 12,000 years.

In terms of understanding what humanity should be all about we have completely lost our way.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Shirina on Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:13 pm

In most cases when we are discussing these matters we always fail to take into consideration the Devil and temptation.
The Devil existed before humanity, so humanity's choices have absolutely nothing to do with the existence of evil. Humanity was created and placed into a world already tainted by evil and corruption hence why Satan was in Eden to begin with. Yet somehow Christians believe that it's all our fault.

It isn't.

Even if the Biblical stories are true, humanity is the victim, not the perpetrator. This is one very important reason why I cannot subscribe to Christianity. It requires me, personally, to admit to guilt that I do not possess. You'll dismiss this immutable fact as mere "pride," I'm sure, but since when is standing up for your own innocence considered prideful?
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:04 am

It is.

Sherina, any action you take is done after you have had the opportunity to decide for yourself wether it be right or wrong.

You cannot blame anyone or anything else for your actions although those actions may be as a result of your upbringing and the good and bad you have encountered.

Humanity is the victim of it's own reluctance to do the right thing rather than the wrong thing in many cases.

If you have always taken the right path and done nothing wrong then I would be the first to cangratulate you but have you never done anything you regret?
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:32 pm

polyglide wrote:

In terms of understanding what humanity should be all about we have completely lost our way.

Not so.
You may think most lost but they are not.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Do you believe that the Devil is real?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:40 pm

polyglide wrote:It is.


If pride is evil as you say, then God is guilty of it himself.
No entity has more pride and he even took p[ride in his half breed son when baptised.---In him I am well pleased---he said while thrusting out his own chest.

His pride is exemplified by the first commandment.
He is completely self-absorbed and proud of it.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:14 pm

Pride as used in some circumstances comes before a fall, however, in other terms it just emphasises the feeling of joy at some acheivement or other and I can see nothing whatsoever wrong in having pride in those circumstances.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:27 pm

polyglide wrote:Pride as used in some circumstances comes before a fall, however, in other terms it just emphasises the feeling of joy at some acheivement or other and I can see nothing whatsoever wrong in having pride in those circumstances.

And just what achievement is God taking pride in?

Creating Satan and humans who he says the vast majority he will have to send to everlasting purposeless torture in hell?

What is the ratio to be?
In Noah's day, he only saved 8 out of millions.
Much pride in that failure eh?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:22 am

God has pride in forming the earth and the possibility that man will eventually appreciate all therein.

As far as Iam aware God never said those lost to the Devil would be sent to hell by himself but no doubt would be at the mercy of the Devil and end up there.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:10 pm

polyglide wrote:God has pride in forming the earth and the possibility that man will eventually appreciate all therein.

As far as Iam aware God never said those lost to the Devil would be sent to hell by himself but no doubt would be at the mercy of the Devil and end up there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Any theology that is based on fantasy, miracles, magic and purposeless torture after death is worthless and immoral.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:47 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Any theology that is based on fantasy, miracles, magic and purposeless torture after death is worthless and immoral.

Excellent description of Gnosticism.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:58 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Any theology that is based on fantasy, miracles, magic and purposeless torture after death is worthless and immoral.

Excellent description of Gnosticism.

We do not have the Christian purposeless torture.
Only those who love to hate will embrace such an immoral policy.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
We do not have the Christian…

True, as edited by me. You do not have “the Christian” anything; most importantly, you personal do not exhibit any evident understanding of Christianity at all. Your ‘theology” is based on fantasy, and is worthless and immoral.



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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:13 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
We do not have the Christian…

True, as edited by me. You do not have “the Christian” anything; most importantly, you personal do not exhibit any evident understanding of Christianity at all. Your ‘theology” is based on fantasy, and is worthless and immoral.




Unlike Christians and you, I do not believe in fantasy, miracles and magic.

So whose theology has more worth?

As to morals, mine are better than what a believer will have. Happy to argue that point anytime.
We can start with human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty if you dare.

You also wanted to do a line by line study.

Gen1;1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is opinion and not fact.

Gen 1;2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

It says that the earth is unformed and void. A shape cannot be unformed or void. Darkness upon the face of the deep is meaningless.

If the spirit of God was hovering over the waters, then they must have had form and were not void.

Your book starts like a fairy tale. Strange you do not see it for what it is.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:05 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Unlike Christians…

You exhibit no understanding of Christianity.

Greatest I am wrote:
Unlike… you…

You do not know what I believe.

Greatest I am wrote:
… I do not believe in fantasy…

Gnostic ideology is fantasy.

Greatest I am wrote:
As to morals, mine are better than what a believer will have.

Erroneous.

Greatest I am wrote:
Happy to argue that point anytime.

I neither argue nor debate YHVH Elohim. I study YHVH Elohim; I discuss YHVH Elohim; I engage in dialogue (“trialogue”, etc.) and discourse upon YHVH Elohim.

Greatest I am wrote:
We can start with human sacrifice and punishing the innocent…

Practiced by all Canaanite nations circa 1400 BC.

Greatest I am wrote:
You also wanted to do a… study.

You repeatedly declined.

Greatest I am wrote:
Gen1;1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

You’ve posted English text. Genesis 1:1 is written in Hebrew text.

Greatest I am wrote:
This is opinion and not fact.

Erroneous.

Greatest I am wrote:
Your book…

I don’t own YHVH Elohim’s Word. YHVH Elohim owns YHVH Elohim’s Word.

Greatest I am wrote:
[YHVH Elohim’s Word] starts like a fairy tale.

Erroneous.

Greatest I am wrote:
… you do not see it for what it is.

Erroneous.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by astradt1 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:33 am

Roc why do you fall back on the term.

Erroneous.

When you don't have an answer which is meaning full?
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:19 pm

As I have tried to expain previously, you do not take everything in a literal sense.

You have to determine the relevance rather than the actual words used.

You can have a void meaning that something is missing from amongst a host of things.

You cannot have something from nothing, the earth must have been formed, evolution cannot expain how, it is obvious that some power far beyond our understanding is involved and the only rational expanation is as far as Iam cocerned God.

All the nonsense regarding God agreeing to the suffering of the innocent etc; is just that, God does not want anyone to suffer, it is man that has decided to deny the right path and is suffering what God said would happen if they did.

You must also take into account it was not God who wrote what he was supposed to have said and done but man.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Definition of SEMANTICS
1 : the study of meanings: the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics

The most important results of such studies reveal how human "understanding" of a word or sequence of words, changes over time.

2 : "'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.' "

http://sabian.org/images/lg31.jpg
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:58 pm

astradt1 wrote:Roc why do you fall back on the term.

Erroneous.

When you don't have an answer which is meaning full?

For that exact reason.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:02 pm

polyglide wrote:

You cannot have something from nothing, the earth must have been formed, evolution cannot expain how,

Strange that cosmologists do not have a problem explaining how our planet was formed. Your fantasy beats them out though.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:46 pm

Today's newspapers include a report that brush fires are sweeping across The Canary Islands, threatening a UNESCO World Heritage fossil-forest, Garajonay, known to be eleven million years old. Who put THAT there, ferchrissake?
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:12 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Today's newspapers include a report that brush fires are sweeping across The Canary Islands, threatening a UNESCO World Heritage fossil-forest, Garajonay, known to be eleven million years old. Who put THAT there, ferchrissake?

Like fossils, Christians will tell you that they were put there to test our faith.
Silly but true.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:22 pm

Heads, they Win. Tails, we lose. (sigh)
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:57 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Like fossils, Christians…

I am a Christian; I am not “[like] fossils.”

Greatest I am wrote:
… Christians will tell you that they were put there to test our faith.

I am a Christian; I “will not tell you that [I was] put there to test [your] faith.”
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:04 am

oftenwrong wrote:
Heads, they1 Win.2


  1. Who are “they?”

  2. Win what?


oftenwrong wrote:
Tails, we1 lose.2


  1. Who are “we?”

  2. Lose what?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Tosh on Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:51 pm

You cannot have something from nothing,

Excellent, I have finally met someone who has knowledge of how things work outside our cause and effect universe. Can you inform me how you came about this knowledge ?

I will wait here in space-time.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:46 pm

polyglide wrote:As I have tried to expain previously, you do not take everything in a literal sense.
....
You cannot have something from nothing ....

That sort of unequivocal statement is sometimes described as giving hostages to fortune. You can certainly have the appearance of producing something from nothing - ask any Wall Street bond salesman about derivatives. In the school laboratory, two invisible gasses - Hydrogen and Oxygen - can readily be combined to produce a liquid - Water.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

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