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God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

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Post by Greatest I am Tue May 29, 2012 9:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits.

Omnipotent is defined in part as having power or authority without limits IOW, almighty.

Seems to me that God has a few limits.

He cannot reproduce true.
He cannot enjoy sex.
He cannot reproduce without bestiality or cross species breeding.
He can only reproduce half breed chimeras like Jesus.
He could not create a heaven without Satan.
He could not create Eden without evil in it.
He cannot control wayward demons or devils.
He cannot sin, although scripture says he does.
He cannot live without needs like adoration, honour, obedience, love.
He cannot accept a soul into heaven without us accepting Jesus and human sacrifice.
He could not forgive sin without having Jesus sacrificed.
Feel free to add to this list.

How then can Christians say that God omnipotent, all-powerful and without limits when he clearly has many?

Regards
DL
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:36 pm

polyglide wrote:Stu, Just log on to Science the cause of disease.  There are 48 qualified experts in their field who explain in clear terms how science has caused the vast majority of illnesses, mostly through the wrong use of drugs etc;  Then consider, mustard gas, radio active material, nuclear weapons, numerous other chemical, scientifically created  weapons etc; and then say science is all good.

Care to show where science requires those things to be created or used against people? As I said blaming science for the way people use it is like blaming a rock when someone uses it to stone another person to death, it's asinine. Ah I see more scientific experts are being cited - anonymously of course. No one has said science is all good either, that's just another lie you've made up, though the innumerable good science has done speaks for itself, as opposed to the long history of repression, violence, torture, murder and rapine religions have foisted on the world.

I notice in all the excitement Polyglide has yet again neglected to tell us what this discussion was or who took part in it, or what their qualifications are? It's startling how often his grandiose but entirely unevidenced claims about science, when questioned, result in deafening silence. Wink

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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:48 pm

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Post by Ivan Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:13 am

polyglide wrote:-
I never said or meant that scientists cause all desease.
I never said that you did. I was objecting to this remark:-
Every desease has a cause and most can be traced to the misuse of one thing or another.
You appear to be saying that if anyone is ill, it’s their own fault. Sometimes it may be to do with their ‘lifestyle choices’, but very often it isn’t. It’s a dangerous and erroneous suggestion which, if taken up by unscrupulous people such as Tory politicians, could lead to the sick being told: “It’s your own fault that you’re ill, don’t expect the NHS to help you”. We’ve already heard hints of such a policy emerging with regard to drunks at A&E departments on Saturday nights and people who are obese.

Science is a good thing; it’s knowledge, which is the opposite of ignorance. Science has gradually replaced false beliefs, such as the idea, which persisted from Roman times to the 16th century, that humans and dogs had similar anatomies. Why did it take so long to know that they weren’t the same? Because the church banned dissection and allowed ignorance to flourish.

People such as Josef Mengele have abused science, but that doesn’t make science bad. Nuclear power is bad if used to make weapons, but many will argue it's good if used to make clean energy. Knowledge is always better than ignorance and superstition, unless you want to control the thought processes of people, something which religion has been very good at doing throughout history.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:41 am

It's also worth noting IMHO that contemporary religious apologists (not all) like creationists are more and more resorting dishonestly to the use of pseudo-science, and this is every bit as harmful as the early Christian church suppressing scientific research. As they did by trying Galileo for heresy simply because the evidence he had used to support his claim and those of Copernicus defied their religions dogma and challenged the right of the Christian church to be the sole arbiter of "god's truth" on earth.

In more recent times their "moral" objections to things like stem cell research have also been based on religious dogma rather than hard evidence, as is often the case with the "pro-life" campaigners whose arguments I find range from emotional blackmail to outright lies about the development of the foetus is the womb. When confronted with scientific research they simultaneously denigrate and deride science when it suits, whilst trying to claim scientific validity for their claims when they don't satisfy the most basic requirements of the scientific process.
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Post by polyglide Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:08 pm

Dr, Sheldon
Developement of the foetus is the womb. whup

Science has a place in every aspect of life, however, it is not nor ever will be the saviour of mankind.

The potential for the destruction, total or parcial, of the world as we know it has been brought about by science, it has also caused many illnesses, not all, but many.

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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:43 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon Developement of the foetus is the womb. whup

You've lost me I'm afraid.

Science has a place in every aspect of life, however, it is not nor ever will be the saviour of mankind.

Well that first part is something a contradiction from your earlier posts about science. I'm not sure I said it in quote that way, however if the human species is to survive then knowledge is vital, and the alternative is ignorance and superstition, as Ivan said in the other thread science increases knowledge and so eradicates ignorance.

Polyglide wrote:The potential for the destruction, total or parcial, of the world as we know it has been brought about by science,

That doesn't make science culpable for how we use that knowledge, and the alternative is ignorance and that hardly bodes better for the future of humankind.

Polyglide wrote: it has also caused many illnesses, not all, but many.

No it hasn't. The misuse of it may have caused some illnesses though. What diseases are you claiming are cause by science? The disease and ailments science cures and treats are too innumerable to list. It has completely eradicated two from the planet, and all but eradicated a few others, if we could immunise enough people.





                   
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Post by polyglide Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:39 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
Do you check your spelling?.

For anything to be misused it has to be available, the scientists made things available and are therefore culpable.

I know, I know, you just cannot understand.



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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:50 pm

I never said scientists weren't culpable. I said science wasn't culpable hence my example of blaming a rock for murder when its been used to kill someone. I'm afraid I can't dumb that down anymore for you. However feel free to ask a reasonably literate person to confirm that your asinine response is due yet again to your execrable understanding of written English.

Or keep throwing petty insults at me while everyone reading this laughs aloud at your post. I'm pretty much done caring.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:00 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                Do you check your spelling?.

Do you really want to pick on my typo of quote instead of quite after you spelled partial with a c? Jesus wept. ...
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Post by polyglide Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:05 pm

DR, Sheldon,
I am not the one who thinks he is the best at spelling and I also have no aids, as you have, you have no excuse other than ignorance.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:25 pm

So you don't know the difference between a typo and a spelling error, quelle surprise. If you don't want your ludicrous spelling highlighted don't make constant derogation of other people's understanding of English. Do you think you can manage that and focus on the post content? If you do then I won't highlight your ludicrous spelling and grammar.

Now are you going to clarify your ludicrous tantrum above or are we to make our own assumptions?
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Post by polyglide Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:37 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
Excuses, excuses. do not wash.
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Post by TMG Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:39 pm

stuart torr wrote:One expects a very straight answer from Ivan, as he will give no other, Polyglide why do you dislike Sheldon so much that is one question, and also if you are reading T.G nice to know you are on the forum my friend,just keep looking and you will find us. Laughing Laughing

I am reading through as best I can Stu, thank you my friend I find this forum slightly hard to get used to with all the eye candy and don't want to repeat what might have been said by others already so I have to do a lot of reading first.
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Post by polyglide Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:48 pm

Stu,
I do not dislike Dr, Sheldon, I just love him a little less than some others, this is based on his apparent antaganistic attitude to spelling mistakes and things he cannot understand.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:04 pm

polyglide wrote:Stu,
    I do not dislike Dr, Sheldon, I just love him a little less than some others, this is based on his apparent antaganistic attitude to spelling mistakes and things he cannot understand.

Oh dear. Rolling Eyes
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:08 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                 Excuses, excuses. do not wash.

So you have no answer then? Try again:

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Today at 3:50 pm

I never said scientists weren't culpable. I said science wasn't culpable hence my example of blaming a rock for murder when its been used to kill someone. I'm afraid I can't dumb that down anymore for you. However feel free to ask a reasonably literate person to confirm that your asinine response is due yet again to your execrable understanding of written English.

Or keep throwing petty insults at me while everyone reading this laughs aloud at your post. I'm pretty much done caring.

Since excuses won't wash why don't you try addressing my point here that you've ignored?

I still don't see any list of diseases science has caused? Too big to fit is it? sarcasm Rolling Eyes
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Post by boatlady Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:17 pm

There is in fact a class of illnesses named iatrogenic illness - this means illness that is caused by doctors.

I guess you might want to include things like tranquilliser addiction, some diseases of old age which only arise because people are now enabled to live into old age whereas in former days without access to good medical care they would die younger of infections and violence.
There's also the class of illnesses, like for example asthma, that are indirectly caused by some of the applications of science resulting in more toxins in the atmosphere

It would, however, be foolish to try to argue that all illness is caused by science when it's perfectly clear to see that in societies where there is no modern medicine or modern industry, no motor cars, no MacDonalds etc etc, life expectancy is pretty much guaranteed to be lower than in our more modern polluted world.
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Post by stuart torr Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:23 pm

silent silent silent
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:28 pm

boatlady wrote:There is in fact a class of illnesses named iatrogenic illness - this means illness that is caused by doctors. I guess you might want to include things like tranquilliser addiction,

Isn't this again a mis-appliance of science though, I mean science doesn't actually cause this directly does it? Which has been my point all along. It's either caused by a lack of knowledge or by negligence, but science is not directly to blame. I suppose a salient comparison would be religious texts that people are raised from childhood to believe are the immutable word of a perfect deity, yet advocate prejudice, bigotry, and violence of the worst kind. I'm not aware of any scientific texts that do this, though I'm happy to accept examples if there are any.

boatlady wrote: some diseases of old age which only arise because people are now enabled to live into old age whereas in former days without access to good medical care they would die younger of infections and violence.

Ok, but this is surely an indirect consequence rather than directly caused by science, and of course I could counter that more scientific knowledge might cure those diseases as well? A little Aldous Huxley and "Brave New World" perhaps but certainly not beyond the realms of plausibility that science could cure all diseases, and science is already making strides in growing replacement organs, who knows what the limits are, but again if it turns out badly then we have used the knowledge science has yielded badly.

boatlady wrote:There's also the class of illnesses, like for example asthma, that are indirectly caused by some of the applications of science resulting in more toxins in the atmosphere

Sorry but again nothing in science requires we keep pumping the atmosphere full of potential harmful emissions. Also it is reasonable to claim that is a solution to this problem is found it will be through science. It won't be through prayer that's for sure.

boatlady wrote:It would, however, be foolish to try to argue that all illness is caused by science when it's perfectly clear to see that in societies where there is no modern medicine or modern industry, no motor cars, no MacDonalds etc etc, life expectancy is pretty much guaranteed to be lower than in our more modern polluted world.

Exactly, and perfectly illustrates my original point to counter polyglide's rather one sided derogation of science. His religion probably wouldn't exist as it does today without mass communication and industrialised farming. Who knows what the world would be, but I'm pretty sure it would be a more ignorant superstitious and less caring place without medicines and medical care as just two examples. His favourite science to deride of course is evolution, and this yields an enormous amount of medical knowledge as the research based on it is vast.
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Post by polyglide Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:31 am

DR, Sheldon,
I have never said all illnesses are caused by science, however, many deformed children by medication is a prime example along with numerous side effects and illness by anti biotics are well documented, perhaps doing a little research would help.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:54 am

polyglide wrote:DR, Sheldon,
                 I have never said all illnesses are caused by science, however, many deformed children by medication is a prime example along with numerous side effects and illness by anti biotics are well documented, perhaps doing a little research would help.

You keep saying this but since I never claimed you'd said all illness was caused by science I'm unsure why you keep saying it.

You did say many illnesses. Side effects from antibiotics effect a small minority and are not an illness. Birth defects similarly are extremely rare due to the rigorous process of licencing medicines. Again when these are not followed it's rather silly to blame science for people not following scientific processes designed to avoid just such outcomes.

Again you implied the majority of illness was caused by humans and worded this in such a way as to imply science was the cause. Now though you've since backtracked from that phrase using phrases like many and most, you haven't offered any credible evidence for your claim. What you have offered are in most cases not caused by science at all, but by the way humans have used scientific knowledge. A distinction I made at the start and throughout but which you haven't bothered to acknowledge even. So next time you object to being labelled dishonest then perhaps you ought to bear such behaviour in mind.

I agree a little research would definitely help, but since you can't be bothered to read it when I gift it to you, let alone go and find it yourself, and since you use claims that are demonstrably false like the one you used yesterday claiming Francis Crick was a creationist when he was an outspoken atheist who publicly criticised and derided religion, then I hold little hope you'll do any real research. As you seem to prefer parroting creationist propaganda that you could easily disprove yourself if you wished with a quick internet search.
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Post by stuart torr Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:10 pm

Polyglide maybe you should do some research instead.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:39 pm

stuart torr wrote:Polyglide maybe you should do some research instead.

What for? He's already told us on here that he-is-100%-certain of his beliefs.

What possible use would research be? Or knowledge, or science, or discussion, or debate, or critical thinking, or philosophy, or self examination of any kind to someone with absolute certainty?

Absolute certainty is extremely unlikely to produces critical thinking, and is just as unlikely to expand knowledge.

Science of course, as Polyglide never tires of telling us, rejects absolute certainty and all it's facts are to a certain extent tentative, and are always subject to continuous scrutiny, revision or even rejection in the light of new evidence, and of course Polyglide has claimed science is weaker for it, needless to say I disagree as I thin it one of science's strengths. After all if you can never admit being wrong then how likely is it you'll ever correct a mistake, and religion has had to have it's mistakes forcibly corrected by science in a most public and embarrassing fashion.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:41 am

polyglide wrote:THe e thing that should be considered is that science has caused it by several means and it is the cause that should be irradicated with no need for cures

The article I cited and linked referred to a massively successful treatment for skin cancer. In no way is skin cancer caused by science. The main cause is exposure to the sun's ultraviolet radiation.

As I said at the start science over a very short timespan has made massive strides in the treatment of various cancers, and of course in alleviating the suffering of patients.

By comparison an omnipotent deity if it existed has included cancer in its design, and allowed massive suffering and deaths. This of course includes animals that exists before humans evolved, and therefore before science existed. Thus blaming science is irrational.

It goes without saying that if no deity exists then nothing we see need contradict this. The cognitive dissonance caused by trying to rationalise the existence of a benevolent deity with limitless power in a world replete with suffering disappears with the conclusion that such a being doesn't exist.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:55 am

Incidentally science hasn't only found a cure for skin cancers with a massive success rate, it also determined the main cause and invented and created chemical compounds to protect against it. So science has prevented it as well as treating and curing it.

I'm not aware of any biblical texts linking ultra violet light to skin cancer, or offering the chemical compounds to create sun block, or the medical treatments for and to cure skin cancer.

"God" has had forever if he exists.

Science has had only a few hundred years.

The benevolence of science is therefore a demonstrable fact. Whereas the existence of a  benevolent and omnipotent deity is not only not demonstrated here but is contradicted by the facts.
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Post by polyglide Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:43 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
Science has been the cause of the most henious inventions that has resulted in the loss of countless lives and illnesses.
There could have been only one purpose for the nuclear bomb as evidenced in Japan, the same applies to all arms, I have seen the destruction caused in Japan and if you think science can be congratulated then I feel sorry for you.

Science can only work with that which has already been created to create something else.

Many deformed children have been born through the misuse of drugs, the nuclear tests resulted in numerous problems for those forced to witness the tests.

The list of science gone wrong in many fields iiiiiiiiiiiiis far too long to list.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:39 pm

The science needn't have been used to create a bomb. That was humans. A group of prominent scientists lobbied Truman not to use it. Including Oppenheimer who was persucuted for decades afterward.

The decision to use it was made by a christian president who was the son of a baptist minister.

It's not really as simple as you're attempting to portray as the Japanese regime at the time was one of the most evil regimes in human history.
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Post by TMG Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:56 pm

Science is not to blame for the horrors of the world, its how the science is applied in practice by humans. A good example of this perhaps is the inventor of the V2 rocket, who also went on to design the Saturn V.

" Von Braun's interest in rockets was specifically for the application of space travel, not for killing people. This, apparently, made him rather unhappy[33]and, after hearing the news from London, he said that "the rocket worked perfectly, except for landing on the wrong planet."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
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Post by TMG Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:05 pm

I used to see this type of debate a fair bit, but it really does not make a lot of sense to me anyway...the light system that people use in their houses is down to science, the cars people drive and the system it uses is down to science.

It seems that *certain* types of science is wrong or immoral? However this is not the case, people cannot really cherry pick *what* science is good or bad, it is what it is and advancements are just that advancements.

When medical science *makes mistakes* it is not due to the science, it is due to the application of it or its *misapplication*, but then people do make mistakes the only thing we can really hope is that lessons are learnt by them.

One thing is certain, medical science on the whole is more beneficial than detrimental.
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Post by polyglide Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:33 am

TGM,
Your reference to pick and choose appears a little out of touch, life is made up entirely of picking and choosing.

It would be a funny old world if there was no choice.

You consider any aspect regarding anything on it's merits.

There are as many bad things that have originated from science as good things.

What determines the good from the bad is the result.

Not all science of a technical nature is proving of benifit to our children, thousands are being subjected to matters that are not in any way benificial through several means.

There are enough nuclear and neutron weapons to wipe out the entire world as we know it, all as a result of sience.

To cure illnesses, many self inflicted by one means or another, in no way makes all the detrimental inventions acceptable.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:28 pm

TMG wrote:I used to see this type of debate a fair bit, but it really does not make a lot of sense to me anyway...the light system that people use in their houses is down to science, the cars people drive and the system it uses is down to science.

It seems that *certain* types of science is wrong or immoral? However this is not the case, people cannot really cherry pick *what* science is good or bad, it is what it is and advancements are just that advancements.

When medical science *makes mistakes* it is not due to the science, it is due to the application of it or its *misapplication*, but then people do make mistakes the only thing we can really hope is that lessons are learnt by them.

One thing is certain, medical science on the whole is more beneficial than detrimental.

Exactly the point I have been making. It's not getting through I'm afraid. The point is also worth noting that whilst science is a human creation and fallible, unlike a deity with limitless power, knowledge and benevolence. Now when you directly compare them the benevolence of science is a demonstrable fact, where as the claim that everything was designed created and is controlled by such a deity is demonstrably wrong, at least in logical terms.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:48 pm

polyglide wrote:TGM,
      Your reference to pick and choose appears a little out of touch, life is made up entirely of picking and choosing. It would be a funny old world if there was no choice. You consider any aspect regarding anything on it's merits.

You've missed his point entirely, he's pointing out that you are arbitrarily picking which scientific facts are true, and which not, based on things that were written by humans who were demonstrably ignorant of the facts their narrative was commenting on. That's not how science works, it has a strict rigorous process and methods for validating evidence. I've explained this innumerable times with things like falsification and the peer review process, and you haven't even done me the courtesy of acknowledging these facts, that doesn't indicate objectivity now does it.

If you want to believe the world is a few thousand years old and not billions of years old, or that species evolution isn't a fact, that's up to you, but if you try to claim there is scientific evidence that supports these claims then that is a demonstrably false claim, as such evidence would have paradigm shifting consequences that would reverberate throughout the world and we could not avoid being aware of it, yet we know these things have not happened.

The fact that a tiny  number of scientists, the majority with no qualifications in the relevant field, claim evolution is wrong is no more true than if they claimed blue was the best colour because they preferred it. I have tried again and again to make you understand the fundamental difference between the arbitrary opinion of a scientist, and the evidenced opinion of a scientific consensus that has withstood the proper scientific scrutiny.

Polyglide wrote:There are as many bad things that have originated from science as good things.

No there aren't. (Hicthen's razor tut tut) You've also been told that bad things are the result of how humans use science, not the fault of science itself as it is solely a means of increasing knowledge. The alternative would be to revel in ignorance, not very appealing. Imagine a world without science, it's not hard since just such a world existed for much of human history, the misery, and suffering was ubiquitous as was the superstition and ignorance. In a scientific world we laugh at the notion of witches, whereas t your infallible religion tortured and murdered innocent people for being witches. For centuries as well, the Christian church seized the assets of those accused, and paid both the accusers and the torturers out if them whilst pocketing the remains. So they actually created an army of professional torturers, and the last person denounced in the mid 19th century, toughly when Darwin was setting sail on the Beagle, and Faraday was using science to prove the link between electricity and magnetism.

Polyglide wrote:What determines the good from the bad is the result.


No, what determines good from bad is the motive, and the sole motive of science is the expansion of knowledge. What humans do with that knowledge they are entirely culpable for.

Polyglide wrote:Not all science of a technical nature is proving of benifit to our children, thousands are being subjected to matters that are not in any way benificial through several means.

In what way does science demand this, and what are these?

Polyglide wrote:There are enough nuclear and neutron weapons to wipe out the entire world as we know it, all as a result of sience.

No it's not, its the result of the way the science has been used, radiology is used to cure cancer, and nuclear fission to generate virtually limitless power, and radiology to take x rays, nuclear reactions also powers our sun without which no life would exist, or religion come to that.

Polyglide wrote:To cure illnesses, many self inflicted by one means or another, in no way makes all the detrimental inventions acceptable.

You keep saying this, how is a self inflicted illness demanded by science? What detrimental inventions, and again how does science demand these? You really must learn to show some evidence for your claims Polyglide. Malaria is by far and away the largest killer of all diseases, why did your deity create that I wonder, how many countless children have suffered and died of this deadly killer your deity supposedly included in it's creation? A deadly killer that science is benevolently studying to try and help cure and if possible eradicate ?
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Post by TMG Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:10 pm

polyglide wrote:TGM,
      Your reference to pick and choose appears a little out of touch, life is made up entirely of picking and choosing.

      It would be a funny old world if there was no choice.


Hi Polyglide  Neutral
Not at all, I am trying to point out that science is a discipline its use or misuse of it is entirely down to people, I also do not really see this as being a great problem for those who hold belief actually either.
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:29 pm

TMG wrote:
polyglide wrote:TGM,
      Your reference to pick and choose appears a little out of touch, life is made up entirely of picking and choosing.

      It would be a funny old world if there was no choice.


Hi Polyglide  Neutral
Not at all, I am trying to point out that science is a discipline its use or misuse of it is entirely down to people, I also do not really see this as being a great problem for those who hold belief actually either.

Partly my fault as I was pointing out the irony that some theists who claim they worship a benevolent deity, denigrate science as cold or heartless, when in fact the benevolence of science is demonstrable, whereas the benevolence of a deity is not. Polyglide is something of a biblical literalist and a YEC, who denies scientific facts that contradict these beliefs. I suspect one of the motives for this derogation of science is a broad swipe at it's validity, as it would help him maintain the illusion that it (science) isn't part of "God's plan," and he has stated in one post that he believes that Satan is capable of falsifying scientific evidence to trick us into not believing in God.

Religion and science of course have a very uneasy history, hardly surprising as religion claims knowledge is absolute, and science always maintains it is tentative and open to scrutiny.
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Post by TMG Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:12 pm

[/quote]

Partly my fault as I was pointing out the irony that some theists who claim they worship a benevolent deity, denigrate science as cold or heartless, when in fact the benevolence of science is demonstrable, whereas the benevolence of a deity is not. Polyglide is something of a biblical literalist and a YEC, who denies scientific facts that contradict these beliefs. [/quote]

I don't mind Sheldon:) I would just like to hear his reasoning behind certain assumptions about science and if he thinks if science in itself immoral, or just a logical process that we do.

Whereas belief is not subjected to these same tests, nobody is going to start living in caves that's for sure, and is it not slightly contradictory to use some forms of science and reject others?
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:12 pm

TMG wrote: I would just like to hear his reasoning behind certain assumptions about science and if he thinks if science in itself immoral, or just a logical process that we do.

Whereas belief is not subjected to these same tests, nobody is going to start living in caves that's for sure, and is it not slightly contradictory to use some forms of science and reject others?

Apparently Polyglide sees no contradiction.

Polyglide wrote: by polyglide on Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:25 pm
DR, Sheldon,
The with or without evidence etc. Of course if there is no actual evidence one can either deny or agree with the matter in question, it does not take a genious to be aware. There are, as I am sure [almost] that you aware there are as many for as against evolution and creation regarding origins, etc; I have no objection to evolution being quoted as relevant in many cases, as I have explained as clearly as I can, that evolution only takes place when circumstances change. Were all things befitting the existing circumstances then all things would stay the same, things evolve to suit the present. I can give you just as many for either side


Polyglide wrote:by polyglide on Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:34 pm
DR Sheldon,
I have given numerous reasons why creation is preferable to evolution and the references that substantiate them.

Polyglide wrote:by polyglide on Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:43 pm
DR. Sheldon,
If matters were left alone with no interferance from either man nor Satan, evolution, relative to Darwin, would not have occured.

You can read the whole discourse HERE
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Post by TMG Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:03 pm

I shall endeavour to wade through it at some point, I just think there is a clear contradiction here and would like to understand how he regards it, if of course he wishes to explain it. Science will always be with us thank God its just part of what we are as a species and in itself does not seek to disprove (what to science) is essentially a non-existence, or prove it, as there is no actual evidence to support the assumption.

This I assume is the reason for faith? scratch
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:51 pm

TMG wrote:I shall endeavour to wade through it at some point, I just think there is a clear contradiction here and would like to understand how he regards it, if of course he wishes to explain it. Science will always be with us thank God its just part of what we are as a species and in itself does not seek to disprove (what to science) is essentially a non-existence, or prove it, as there is no actual evidence to support the assumption.

This I assume is the reason for faith? scratch

Curiously enough faith does not feature as much as you'd think in the discourse, though obviously he's claimed to have faith, but he also claimed in one post to be 100% certain of his beliefs. I'm not sure what need such certainty has for evidence or faith though. I've tried my best to explain the basics of the scientific process, things like falsification, and peer review, and to explain what would have happened if someone really had validated evidence to disprove Darwinian evolution, or to evidence creationism, all to no avail I'm afraid.
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Post by TMG Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:47 pm

Hi Sheldon.

You said...

"Curiously enough faith does not feature as much as you'd think in the discourse, though obviously he's claimed to have faith, but he also claimed in one post to be 100% certain of his beliefs...."

I will get the hang of the quoting function at some point  

I think this hits the nail on the head, science is done the way it is done for a good reason and it is open minded to new actual evidence or proofs and even open to theory's and hypothesis that seem to fit other facts or evidences.

A good deal of Frances electricity grid is provided my nuclear power plants, yet the same science and technology which is used for that can also used for the purpose of weapons...so it really is not about science...it seems to be more about what its used for, and of course science itself has no direction, control or interest itself on that aspect because it is not an actual entity...

Belief perhaps should never be *certain* and although I am an atheist I think it being so would upset any notion of "free choice" in a religious sense...

Throughout history many bad things have been done by people who were *certain* of their religious beliefs...there is no greater justification than *God* some of those people used science to facilitate their actions. So its not science and its not religion, its how they might be used by individuals or groups of people...I hope this makes sense it did in my head anyway Smile
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Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:29 pm

TMG wrote:A good deal of Frances electricity grid

They won't like that on the apostrophe thread. Wink

The cloud bubble icon immediately to right of centre in the top row of editing symbols is the quote function. It is tricky to get to grips with at first, I still get it wrong sometimes, especially when I use my phone to post.

TMG wrote:Throughout history many bad things have been done by people who were *certain* of their religious beliefs...there is no greater justification than *God* some of those people used science to facilitate their actions. So its not science and its not religion, its how they might be used by individuals or groups of people...I hope this makes sense it did in my head anyway

Of course the morality of the outcome comes down to choice. However is there anything in science that offers motives? I mean as opposed to religious texts that are purportedly the immutable commands of an infallible deity of course. Now I'm not suggesting all theists adhere literally to those texts, I know they don't, but as you say when someone claims absolute certainty it's seldom a good sign. How can such a person ever correct a mistake or an error, or perhaps they don't think it's possible to be wrong as long as they believe it with faith?

Is it a coincidence here that in this discourse the same poster claiming absolute certainty for his own beliefs, is also disingenuously claiming motives for science that he hasn't attempted to evidence despite multiple requests, except to point to outcomes that fit his own subjective view of science. Perhaps no more of a coincidence than his acceptance only of scientific facts that don't conflict with those beliefs? It seems TO ME that an obvious motive for this subjective cherry picking is also justified in his mind by his incorrect assertion that science has a motive or motives beyond expanding human knowledge?

I am again minded to point out that he claimed Satan, whom he believes to be very real and have real influence over human actions and motives, was capable of falsifying scientific evidence like fossils that clearly evidenced species evolution.

I'm not sure how you debate such claims as they clearly can't be evidenced in any empirical sense, though he is adamant that everything we see confirms this elaborate rationalisation he's constructed. As  I'm not bright enough, I can't envisage a method of falsifying such claims beyond indicating the lack of any compelling empirical evidence, if only Tony could lend his philosophical knowledge perhaps he might supply some insights? He might welcome a break from what the Amazon forum has become, it's very disheartening to remember what it was and see what it has turned into, c'est la vie.
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Post by TMG Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:52 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
TMG wrote:A good deal of Frances electricity grid

They won't like that on the apostrophe thread. Wink

Lazy Laughing  Tiger sorry.

The cloud bubble icon immediately to right of centre in the top row of editing symbols is the quote function. It is tricky to get to grips with at first, I still get it wrong sometimes, especially when I use my phone to post.

I think I am beginning to get the hang of it all thanks, I am just used to a more spartan layout.

TMG wrote:Throughout history many bad things have been done by people who were *certain* of their religious beliefs...there is no greater justification than *God* some of those people used science to facilitate their actions. So its not science and its not religion, its how they might be used by individuals or groups of people...I hope this makes sense it did in my head anyway

Of course the morality of the outcome comes down to choice. However is there anything in science that offers motives? I mean as opposed to religious texts that are purportedly the immutable commands of an infallible deity of course. Now I'm not suggesting all theists adhere literally to those texts, I know they don't, but as you say when someone claims absolute certainty it's seldom a good sign. How can such a person ever correct a mistake or an error, or perhaps they don't think it's possible to be wrong as long as they believe it with faith?

I'm not sure how you debate such claims as they clearly can't be evidenced in any empirical sense, though he is adamant that everything we see confirms this elaborate rationalisation he's constructed. As  I'm not bright enough, I can't envisage a method of falsifying such claims beyond indicating the lack of any compelling empirical evidence, if only Tony could lend his philosophical knowledge perhaps he might supply some insights? He might welcome a break from what the Amazon forum has become, it's very disheartening to remember what it was and see what it has turned into, c'est la vie.

I think the best way is to see how he might view the smaller details all of which make up the bigger picture.
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