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God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

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God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Tue May 29, 2012 9:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits.

Omnipotent is defined in part as having power or authority without limits IOW, almighty.

Seems to me that God has a few limits.

He cannot reproduce true.
He cannot enjoy sex.
He cannot reproduce without bestiality or cross species breeding.
He can only reproduce half breed chimeras like Jesus.
He could not create a heaven without Satan.
He could not create Eden without evil in it.
He cannot control wayward demons or devils.
He cannot sin, although scripture says he does.
He cannot live without needs like adoration, honour, obedience, love.
He cannot accept a soul into heaven without us accepting Jesus and human sacrifice.
He could not forgive sin without having Jesus sacrificed.
Feel free to add to this list.

How then can Christians say that God omnipotent, all-powerful and without limits when he clearly has many?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:17 pm

Greatest quote. What can I say if you do not recognize murder as murder?

Nothing. But then I don't recognise your interpretation.
We know for certain there were many tribes and nations in the world at the time. None of those were immortal. Why Adam and Eve? They were the 'founders/parents' of the Hebrew nation, not immortal beings.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:30 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote. What can I say if you do not recognize murder as murder?

Nothing. But then I don't recognise your interpretation.
We know for certain there were many tribes and nations in the world at the time. None of those were immortal. Why Adam and Eve? They were the 'founders/parents' of the Hebrew nation, not immortal beings.

True but the potential was there if you believe your book of myths and God made damned sure they did not become immortal by murdering them by not giving them what would keep them alive.

Would you deny your child what it needs to keep living?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:27 am

Greatest quote.

True but the potential was there if you believe your book of myths and God made damned sure they did not become immortal by murdering them by not giving them what would keep them alive.


]color=black]My quote to Shirina on Sun. 3rd.

Shirina. I've already said some time ago that the Genesis story is a re-creation of previous creation stories. I just like arguin.... erm.... discussing.


Greatest. I believe the OT is the 'History' of the Hebrew nation. It was written by Hebrews, for Hebrews. It contains what they believe/d. That God was their God and telling them how to behave. This is obvious by the fact that they believed when leaving the borders of their land, they were leaving God's sphere of influence. This changed after the exiles.

I read the OT as it leads up to the time of Christ. It also contains knowledge of Ancient Mesopotamia, which leads me on to other knowledge recorded outside the OT. My interest.

The fact is that the OT is a fascinating book containing hymns of praise, worship, sadness and tragedy. A book of proverbs which will never be bettered. A book of wisdom. A book of rather contentious writing, depending on your outlook. Books with passages upon which Jesus based some of his parables.

Some NT writing, if you stand it on its own, makes little sense. If you know what it is based on in the OT it is perfectly understandable.

Polyglide is right in that Christians base their beliefs on the teachings of Jesus. Where Polyglide goes wrong, in my opinion, is to forget that Jesus is part of the OT nation and its heritage, and therefore the OT cannot be ignored.

Perhaps you see now where I'm coming from.[/color]



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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:28 am

blueturando, if you have nothing better to offer than the perpetual silly remarks then it would be better to say nothing.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:11 pm

Blue quote

And then the fairy princess woke from her sleep and they all lived happily ever after.......Once the treatment had kicked in anyway


Unfortunately when the fairy princess Eve 'awoke' it became 'hard labour' for both of them. Her in two ways. Wink
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:03 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote.

True but the potential was there if you believe your book of myths and God made damned sure they did not become immortal by murdering them by not giving them what would keep them alive.


]color=black]My quote to Shirina on Sun. 3rd.

Shirina. I've already said some time ago that the Genesis story is a re-creation of previous creation stories. I just like arguin.... erm.... discussing.


Greatest. I believe the OT is the 'History' of the Hebrew nation. It was written by Hebrews, for Hebrews. It contains what they believe/d. That God was their God and telling them how to behave. This is obvious by the fact that they believed when leaving the borders of their land, they were leaving God's sphere of influence. This changed after the exiles.

I read the OT as it leads up to the time of Christ. It also contains knowledge of Ancient Mesopotamia, which leads me on to other knowledge recorded outside the OT. My interest.

The fact is that the OT is a fascinating book containing hymns of praise, worship, sadness and tragedy. A book of proverbs which will never be bettered. A book of wisdom. A book of rather contentious writing, depending on your outlook. Books with passages upon which Jesus based some of his parables.

Some NT writing, if you stand it on its own, makes little sense. If you know what it is based on in the OT it is perfectly understandable.

Polyglide is right in that Christians base their beliefs on the teachings of Jesus. Where Polyglide goes wrong, in my opinion, is to forget that Jesus is part of the OT nation and its heritage, and therefore the OT cannot be ignored.

Perhaps you see now where I'm coming from.[/color]



Yes. Hiding behind banalities in order to ignore a moral question.

I ask again.
Would you deny your child what it needs to keep living?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:32 pm

Greatest quote.

Yes. Hiding behind banalities in order to ignore a moral question.

I ask again.
Would you deny your child what it needs to keep living?

I'm not that much of a fool to answer that on this thread. The rights of children, the love of parents are reality, not mythology. If you wish to talk about the rights of children and family matters then I suggest we switch to the general discussion thread. There we can talk reality.

On second thoughts. If you find my post banal, perhaps we should forget it.
I obviously don't measure up to your standard. Crying or Very sad

By the way, the answer to your question posted on General discussion- unhelpful people
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:41 pm

Strange that you will not say that you would save your child regardless of where the question is posed.

Note what the first principle of morality is.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:34 pm

Greatest quote. Note what the first principle of morality is

Certainly. 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.'
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:47 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
Note what the first principle of morality is.

So noted.

Hebrew Bible:

“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”

Deuteronomy 6:5
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Shirina on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:57 pm

“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”

How can any being, including a God, demand love? Not ask for it, but DEMAND it? Love is something you simply cannot demand of anyone.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:34 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Hebrew Bible:

“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”

Deuteronomy 6:5
Shirina wrote:
How can any being, including a God…

YHVH Elohim (“the LORD your God”) is not “any being.”

YHVH Elohim is not “a God”; note that, one sentence prior, Moshe identifies Adonai Eluheinu as echod.

Shirina wrote:
… demand love?

YHVH Elohim demands no such thing; conversely, YHVH Elohim extends choice to all ha adama.

Hebrew Bible:

“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living, but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods, for the LORD our God is he who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for he is our God.”

Joshua 24:15-18
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:08 am

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote. Note what the first principle of morality is

Certainly. 'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.'

Not quite but close and you will note that absentee God's first rule is self-centered while it should be outwardly centered as you indicate.

Seems that you and I are more moral than God.

I just put this up. Care to opine?

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t546-if-you-accept-this-as-universal-morality-you-will-reject-god#21199

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:11 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Note what the first principle of morality is.

So noted.

Hebrew Bible:

“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”

Deuteronomy 6:5

What does a genocidal son murdering God need with love?
Who would be so stupid as to give such a God any love?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:05 am

Greatest I am wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Hebrew Bible:

“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”

Deuteronomy 6:5
What does a genocidal son murdering God need with love?
Who would be so stupid as to give such a God any love?

YHVH Elohim is not “a genocidal son murdering God”; YHVH Elohim is not “such a God.” YHVH Elohim, called “Adonai Eluhenu” by Moshe as he spoke to Y’srael assembled, is echod

Hebrew Bible:

“Sch'ma,1 Y'srael, Adonai2 Eluheinu,3 Adonai2 echod.4

“Hear,1 O Israel: The Lord2 our God,3 the Lord2 is one.4

Deuteronomy 6:4

  1. Sch'ma, Hear, to hear intelligently, with implication of attention, obedience.

  2. Adonai, Lord, self existent, eternal.

  3. Eluheinu, God, incomprehensible power, specifically used of the supreme Creator.

  4. echod, one, one, first, only.


… and it is love of Adonai Eluheinu, Adonai echod, YHWH Elohim (translated “the LORD your God” in the next sentence spoken by Moshe), that is “the first principle of morality.”

Hebrew Bible:

“And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”

Deuteronomy 6:5

Perhaps this “a God” of which you speak is one of the worthless, powerless trinkets worshipped by those who choose not the Author, Creator, Owner, and Sovereign of all that is, was, and ever will be. If so, as I’ve no personal interest in such worthless, powerless trinkets save as objects of occasional disinterested musings, I’ve no further comment thereto.

At such time as you generate within yourself interest in studying your eternal Creator, the pre-existent incomprehensible causative power by which existence exists, let me know; I’ll join you, and I’ll assist you as much as I can.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:17 am

Getting better all the time.

Just what planet is anyone on that thinks we are getting better all the time ?.

There is not one country as I have said previously that can be said to be stable, even those not presently involved in either financial difficulties or engaged in war or civil rebellion they are in fear of becoming involved.

Every day there is recordings of not one murder but hundreds and not only in the war zones.

Drug addiction is a major problem throughout the world, self imposed diseases are common place, starvation in the world is at a record high,
brother fights brother, sons kill their parents for financial gain and there is more crime of every sort on the increase, our prisons cannot cope and there is a distinct possibility that we will have a major conflict with Iran etc; etc;

It is not the stars anyone wants to look at who feels everything is rosy but the attention of a brain surgeon.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:35 am

greatest quote. Not quite but close and you will note that absentee God's first rule is self-centered while it should be outwardly centered as you indicate.

I left out the religious side, and I deliberately left out the 1st commandment, as we were talking 'human morality'. Or so I understood from your link posted.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:40 pm

polyglide wrote:Getting better all the time.

Just what planet is anyone on that thinks we are getting better all the time ?.

There is not one country as I have said previously that can be said to be stable, even those not presently involved in either financial difficulties or engaged in war or civil rebellion they are in fear of becoming involved.

Every day there is recordings of not one murder but hundreds and not only in the war zones.

Drug addiction is a major problem throughout the world, self imposed diseases are common place, starvation in the world is at a record high,
brother fights brother, sons kill their parents for financial gain and there is more crime of every sort on the increase, our prisons cannot cope and there is a distinct possibility that we will have a major conflict with Iran etc; etc;

It is not the stars anyone wants to look at who feels everything is rosy but the attention of a brain surgeon.

You say this without looking at the evidence that shows violent death of all kinds including war and slavery are the lowest they have ever been.

This clip shows that we are doing fine in most other areas as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78

You have bought into the guilt trip that religions try to maintain.



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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:45 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:greatest quote. Not quite but close and you will note that absentee God's first rule is self-centered while it should be outwardly centered as you indicate.

I left out the religious side, and I deliberately left out the 1st commandment, as we were talking 'human morality'. Or so I understood from your link posted.

The myth of Eden says that our morals and God's are the same. A & E became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil which leads to our moral sense.

We both have condemned the absentee self-centered God.

Take a bow.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:02 pm

Greatest quote. You say this without looking at the evidence that shows violent death of all kinds including war and slavery are the lowest they have ever been.

The problem with that statement is that we really don't know. We have no idea what was really happening in early China, Japan, Australia, Russia steppes, North and South America, African interior.
We base the statement only on what we know. And that tends to be 'recorded' history. What happened before that may have been, in terms of comparative population size, even worse.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Adele Carlyon on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:22 pm

Surely the big bearded fella knows what's going on? So why does he let it happen? Good god? Wink
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:27 pm

He wasn't very kind with the weather for the Jubilee pageant on the Thames, either.

Slap on the wrist there!
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:33 pm

greatest quote.

The myth of Eden says that our morals and God's are the same. A & E became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil which leads to our moral sense.

We both have condemned the absentee self-centered God.

I do not agree with your interpretation, as I have already said.

It is generally considered today that 'moral sense' is 'evolutionary'. Darwin gave a good explanation, and others that I have read agree and expand on it. Still we might all be wrong Smile
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:33 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote. You say this without looking at the evidence that shows violent death of all kinds including war and slavery are the lowest they have ever been.

The problem with that statement is that we really don't know. We have no idea what was really happening in early China, Japan, Australia, Russia steppes, North and South America, African interior.
We base the statement only on what we know. And that tends to be 'recorded' history. What happened before that may have been, in terms of comparative population size, even worse.

It was worse.
It is now better.

Thanks for making my point.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:35 pm

oftenwrong wrote:He wasn't very kind with the weather for the Jubilee pageant on the Thames, either.

Slap on the wrist there!

He apologises for that. Pulled the plug out of the Divine sink at the wrong time. :oops:
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:37 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:greatest quote.

The myth of Eden says that our morals and God's are the same. A & E became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil which leads to our moral sense.

We both have condemned the absentee self-centered God.

I do not agree with your interpretation, as I have already said.

It is generally considered today that 'moral sense' is 'evolutionary'. Darwin gave a good explanation, and others that I have read agree and expand on it. Still we might all be wrong Smile

And your brainwashing will not allow you to think that we might all be right.
Back pedal all you like. You have judged your God to not be to man's better standard.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:40 pm

Greatest. quote. Thanks for making my point.

Your welcome. Smile

Actually, no one really knows.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:43 pm

Greatest quote You have judged your God to not be to man's better standard.

If you wish to continue mixing myth with reality, please do. I'm out.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:46 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest. quote. Thanks for making my point.

Your welcome. Smile

Actually, no one really knows.

You do.
You are living by man's laws and would not want to live by your God's.

Or are you ready to stone unruly children?

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:47 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest quote You have judged your God to not be to man's better standard.

If you wish to continue mixing myth with reality, please do. I'm out.

Eh. You are the one thinking that myths are real.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:54 pm

Greatest

color=black]My quote to Shirina on Sun. 3rd which I quoted to you.

Shirina. I've already said some time ago that the Genesis story is a re-creation of previous creation stories. I just like arguin.... erm.... discussing.

Good luck.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:33 pm

Smooth.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:39 pm

Greatest
'Actually, no one really knows' in a previous quote. This refers to whether the wars etc are less now than pre-history times. No-one really knows.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:07 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Greatest
'Actually, no one really knows' in a previous quote. This refers to whether the wars etc are less now than pre-history times. No-one really knows.


Only those who will not look or are wishing to hang on to their fantasies.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:47 am

Steven Pinker charts the decline of violence from Biblical times to the present, and argues that, though it may seem illogical and even obscene, given Iraq and Darfur, we are living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Steve Pinker is only basing his facts on a part of history known since Bible times 1500BC?

We know little of the world before then, or of the parts of the world we knew nothing about, as on my list. Therefore his premise might be wrong. Perhaps the overall world was more peaceful prehistory times.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:15 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:Steven Pinker charts the decline of violence from Biblical times to the present, and argues that, though it may seem illogical and even obscene, given Iraq and Darfur, we are living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Steve Pinker is only basing his facts on a part of history known since Bible times 1500BC?

We know little of the world before then, or of the parts of the world we knew nothing about, as on my list. Therefore his premise might be wrong. Perhaps the overall world was more peaceful prehistory times.

Before that, under matriarchies, it definitely was a more peaceful world.
This is rather long but it shows this well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:50 am

Greatest I am wrote:
Before that, under matriarchies, it definitely was a more peaceful world.

Not according to Steven Pinker (Steven Pinker on the myth of violence). Click link below.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:29 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Before that, under matriarchies, it definitely was a more peaceful world.

Not according to Steven Pinker (Steven Pinker on the myth of violence). Click link below.


If you listen to that scholar in that link, you will note that she speaks of an earlier time than Steven Pinker is speaking of.

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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Guest on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:48 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Before that, under matriarchies, it definitely was a more peaceful world.
Not according to Steven Pinker (Steven Pinker on the myth of violence). Click link below.
Greatest I am wrote:
If you listen to that scholar in that link, you will note that she speaks of an earlier time than Steven Pinker is speaking of.

Steven Pinker speaks of ten thousand (10,000) years ago. I’m aware of no matriarchies “of an earlier time.” I’m aware of no recorded history “of an earlier time.”


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:08 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
RockOnBrother wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Before that, under matriarchies, it definitely was a more peaceful world.
Not according to Steven Pinker (Steven Pinker on the myth of violence). Click link below.
Greatest I am wrote:
If you listen to that scholar in that link, you will note that she speaks of an earlier time than Steven Pinker is speaking of.

Steven Pinker speaks of ten thousand (10,000) years ago. I’m aware of no monarchies “of an earlier time.” I’m aware of no recorded history “of an earlier time.”

Your lack of knowledge does not make her wrong.

No offence but I will take a scholars view over yours.

Regards
DL
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

Post by polyglide on Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:11 pm

Ancient history has no relevance to the present day.

You can only compare recent times with recent times.

Slavery etc; has nothing to do with the present state of the world.

The times to which you refer did not have the same potential for destruction that we now have nor was the world such a small place.

We can now see at a glance the state of any country, in previous times we were totally unaware of what was happening in the greatest part of the world.

It is no longer a cowboy fight Indian scenario but a real fight for the survival of mankind and it will not be by means of nuclear weapons.
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Re: God is almost omnipotent. He has many limits

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