Egypt - reading between the lines

by witchfinder Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:12 am

Egypt has been in the news again for all the wrong reasons - but exactly what are the reasons for the violence and killings. ?

Basicly the culprit is intolerance, the same culprit that has been the cause of so many conflicts and wars, in this instance it appears that most of the blame can be directed in two directions, the Egyptian state and hard-line Muslims, note the term "hard-line" as against simply Muslims, very important point.

Many people in the west only like to see things as black and white, to such people everything is cut and dried and the reasons for events are simple and straight forward, in other words the fault or blame lies in Islam and Muslims - end of story, but this is simply not true.

In Egypt there are archaic laws which are discriminatory towards the minority Christians, these laws for example state that a Church needs government permission to be built, but a Mosque does not, a Christian can convert to Islam, but a Muslim needs government permission to convert to Christianity.

These old laws are clearly wrong, and western leaders must press the point to Egyptian leaders about equality and freedom instead of falling over each other trying to sell arms and bombs to the millitary regime, and David Cameron is the worst culprit here.

No one should be under the illusion that Egypt is rife with sectarian problems, because it is not, there are problems, and there are some pockets where the sectarian divisions are tense, and as last night shows these tensions boil over into violence and bloodshed.

For the large part, and in most of Egyptian society there is no problem between the Muslims and Christians, indeed there are numerous instances of Muslims defending Christians and showing their support and solidarity.
The government of Egypt refers to all Christians and Muslims as "brothers of Egypt", but clearly much more needs to be done by the leaders.

There are Christians in all walks of life in Egypt, in parliament, in sport, in business and high up in the millitary.
Former UN secretary general Dr Boutros Boutros Ghali is an Egyptian Christian, and as a matter of interest Sir Magdi Yacoub, a world leading British heart surgeon is a Christian born in Egypt.

The bottom line here is: Dont brand all Muslims as been extremists or intolerant

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:50 pm

The "Arab Spring" will inevitably revive old tribal and religious tensions that have beset the area since Christ was a carpenter. Strong, not to say despotic, Rulers have kept the lid on things by brute force and ignorance but the first indicator was the death of Tito which split Yugoslavia into its component Austro-Hungarian Christians and Ottoman Empire Muslims. Along the entire North-African coast of the Mediterranean, only Morocco still has stable government.

Watch that space.

by witchfinder Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:42 pm

oftenwrong - you are correct, soon the millitary of Egypt will be looking to hand over power to a civilian government, everyone is touting for support including the hard line Islamics who would like to see a very Conservative and fundamentalist Islamic republic.

But I have faith in the people of Egypt, especialy the younger generations, I believe most people respect Islam but dont want to see religion interfere in the state or daily life, I think that most people would prefer a more secular society where Muslims and Christians are equal and free to practice their faiths.

by gator Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:02 pm

For the large part, and in most of Egyptian society there is no problem between the Muslims and Christians,

I'm not sure if I agree with that or not. I saw Michael Coren interview a Coptic Christian a few months ago and her story was entirely different. Christians are THE tortured minority in Egypt and she gave very good examples. One example was that a mosque can have a building permit issued within a matter of minutes. A church had better plan on at least ten to twenty YEARS before they have a permit issued. Another issue she raised was that any Muslim can harm any non-Muslim with legal impunity whereas any non-Muslim had better be trembling in terror if they even so much as brush up against a Muslim's clothing. There were other examples as well but I don't want to get to the point of being boring.

gator

by jackthelad Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:15 pm

I read where in Egypt muslims don't need planning permission to build a mosque but christians need planning permission to build a church.
It also goes on to say a christian can convert to Islam, no problem, but a muslim has to obtain permission to convert to christianity. Laws of the land, double standards.

by ROB Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:42 pm

Egyptian Christians renew clashes with police amid worst violence since Arab Spring uprising

msnbc.com news services
updated 2 hours 49 minutes ago 2011-10-10T17:34:56

CAIRO — Egypt's Coptic church blasted authorities Monday for allowing repeated attacks on Christians with impunity as the death toll from a night of rioting rose to 26, most of them Christians who were trying to stage a peaceful protest in Cairo over an attack on a church.

... Sunday's sectarian violence was the worst in Egypt since the uprising that ousted Hosni Mubarak in February.

"Strangers got in the middle of our sons and committed mistakes to be blamed on our sons," the Coptic church said in a statement. It lamented "problems that occur repeatedly and go unpunished."

Full story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44841995/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

Egypt has been unable to replicate Nelson Mandela.

by witchfinder Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:25 pm

Hello and welcome to gator

As stated in my opening post, much of the problem here lies with the state, in many developing nations there is a totaly different mindset and way of thinking.

The rules / laws in Egypt are based on the fact that - because the majority are Muslim, the other faiths simply dont count, infact the Egyptian state recognises only three faiths, Islam, Christianity and Jews, if you happen to be a Hindu, Buddhist or Bah ai, then you either dont exist or you are a liar.

The main problem lies with the state, other posters are correct in pointing out the legal discrimination of Christians in Egypt, like requiring a permit to build, restore or alter a Church, or to have to get state permission to convert to Christianity.

I reiterate my personal opinion that most Muslims in Egypt do not have a problem with the Copts ( Christians ), there were Muslims who joined the initial demonstration against the burning down of a Church in Aswan, they marched with the Christians.

by ROB Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:21 pm

witchfinder wrote:... in many developing nations there is a totaly different mindset and way of thinking.

... in Egypt... because the majority are Muslim, the other faiths simply dont count, in fact the Egyptian state recognises only three faiths, Islam, Christianity and Jews, if you happen to be a Hindu, Buddhist or Bah ai, then you either dont exist or you are a liar.

I reiterate my personal opinion that most Muslims in Egypt do not have a problem with the Copts ( Christians ), there were Muslims who joined the initial demonstration against the burning down of a Church in Aswan, they marched with the Christians.

Perhaps there are Muslims in Egypt who do not have a problem with Coptic Christians. There are definitely Muslims in Egypt who do have a problem with Coptic Christians. Jews, Baha'i's, Hindus, and anyone not their "faith” of preference, i.e., anyone not a professed Muslim who is intolerant of all other "parties."

In fact, from direct knowledge, Baha’is seeking safety have found refuge in Israel, perhaps the only Middle Eastern country wherein they do not face systemic persecution. And let's not talk about Iran, which encompasses Persia, the birthplace of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and the Baha'i Faith, wherein Baha’is were put at risk of losing their lives if they tarried long in Iran after the late seventies revolution against the Shah, in which many Baha'i's participated.

Egyptians have a long way to go before achieving the pre-requisite religious tolerance necessary for a democracy under God rather than a tyranny of the democracy.

by gator Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:28 am

You put great weight on the fact that most Muslims are peaceful and do not engage in the violence. I would tend to agree with that to an extent. However, these are the same Muslims who have no say in the agenda these days. The agenda is 99% driven by the fanatics. Have you ever heard of a Canadian Muslim by the name of Tarek Fatah? He is a peaceful man and an author. His latest book is titled The Jew Is Not My Enemy. He said on an interview a few weeks ago that he has had thousands and thousand of death threats because, according to the fanatics, he is not Muslim ENOUGH. IOW, he is not participating in their agenda to the extent that they would like to see him involved. I liken this situation to the Germans in WWII. Very few German people had much to say about Hitler and his agenda during the war. Their only participation was to elect him in the first place. After that, the Nazis took on a life of their own and didn't much care what the German people thought. Much the same here. It isn't the peaceful Muslims that we have to deal with but we do have to deal with the fanatics all the more aggresively.

gator

by witchfinder Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:03 am

( Hypothetical )

A soccer match attracts a crowd of 40,000 people, and two men in the crowd start fighting, one of the men pulls out a knife and stabs the other man seriously wounding him.

In normal and ordinary circumstances, that soccer match would never make the newspaper headlines, but because of a violent incident the soccer match was mentioned in the media news reports.

How many people reading about this violent incident might believe that soccer matches are dangerous places to take your family, or take your children, and how many people will stand at the bar sipping beer and argue that soccer matches are full of hooligans and thugs. ?

The hyperthetical incident of the two men fighting represents 0.005% of the crowd, whilst 99.995% of the crowd never indulged in any form of violence, it just goes to show how a tiny minority can spoil the reputation of the vast majority, and it also shows the nature of how some people form twisted opinions.

ISLAMIC EXTREMISM

In Britain* the total number of people believed to have been involved in Islamic terrorist attacks in the past ten years is about a dozen, the last person arrested and convicted under terrorism laws was in 2007 - the arrest was of a member of a far right extremist organisation and he was convicted of explosives offences.

There are approximately 1.6 million Muslims in the UK

There have been more British / Irish (Christians) arrested under terrorist laws in the UK in the past ten years than there have been Muslims.

The way Muslims are perceived by many in the west is stereotyping millions of people of different nationalities, and of different races based solely upon their faith, is this realy fair. ?

There were more people killed during the troubles in Northern Ireland than there were killed on 11th September 2001 in New York, many of those murdered in the Northern Ireland troubles were killed with guns paid for by American and Canadian money.

The Irish republican terrorists received a lot of funds from the United States, by people who wrongly thought that Britain was the "nasty bully of Ireland", the loyalist terrorists received money from Canada, in particular from the Toronto region from people who believed that the loyalist, protestant way of life in Northern Ireland was under threat from the evil, nasty republicans, which was also untrue.

Do most Americans support terrorism against Britain ? - of course they dont

Do most Canadians support terrorism against the Irish Republic ? - definately not

What made some Americans believe that Britain or England was the nasty bully in Northern Ireland, or that it was Englands fault that people in Northern Ireland started attacking each other. ?

Do most Muslims in the world support terrorism against innocent people ?

by Guest Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:06 pm

witchfinder wrote:In Britain* the total number of people believed to have been involved in Islamic terrorist attacks in the past ten years is about a dozen... There are approximately 1.6 million Muslims in the UK

Point taken.

witchfinder wrote:The way Muslims are perceived by many in the west is stereotyping millions of people of different nationalities, and of different races based solely upon their faith, is this realy fair. ?

No. Period.

witchfinder wrote:Do most Muslims in the world support terrorism against innocent people ?

No. Period.

In May 1989, my Pakistani friend, a devout Muslim who taught, from the Qur'an, to anyone who would listen (I listened), that Muslims are called upon to treat Jews and Christians (and by implication all who believe that all mankind is called upon to "love your neighbor as yourself") with respect, dignity, deference, and honor. As he predicted, my friend was arrested and executed by Pakistani officials upon his return to his native country for daring to teach this noble teaching.

To me, this personal tragedy encapsulates the tenaciously lingering problem.

by witchfinder Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:58 pm

I agree with the sentiments in your post RockOnBrother

The Quran is consistently ignored by the extremists and hard line Muslims, the holy book of Islam clearly states that Christians and Jews are "people of the book" meaning that together with Islam they are all Abrahamic religions, with many similarities and shared beliefs.

The enemy is ignorance

by oftenwrong Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:03 am

QUOTE: In Britain* the total number of people believed to have been involved in Islamic terrorist attacks in the past ten years is about a dozen

Thousands, a dozen or just one involvement is enough to fix an idea in peoples' perception. Anyone who has ever visited a foreign country can have created a stereotype for the locals to believe, e.g. The English say "thankyou" a lot / British people form queues / Americans don't speak our language.

Outside our own Nation's confines, each of us is taken to be typical.

by Guest Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:10 am

witchfinder wrote:
The enemy is ignorance

The enemy of the enemy is truth. My friend taught truth; i.e., as a Muslim, he taught exactly as the Qur'an taught.

Fancy that, a man who professes to be one who follows the teachings of a book who actually follows, and teaches, the teachings of that book.

In Pakistan, that'll get you executed.

by Shirina Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:39 am

Like all other holy texts, people cherry pick what they want out of it; they decide for themselves what is relevant to today's society and what isn't. The vast majority of Muslims do not believe they should behead infidels any more than Christians believe we should stone to death unruly children.

Yet there will always be fanatics who cherry pick the violent, extremist passages out of their respective texts and use it to justify their own hatred, bigotry, and tyranny.

by Guest Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:35 am

Shirina wrote:
... there will always be fanatics who cherry pick the violent, extremist passages out of their respective texts and use it to justify their own hatred, bigotry, and tyranny.

That's called "proof-texting", and in my opinion it's immoral. Our corrupt media pseudo-journalists do it all the time; in their arena of deception, it's called "sound bites."

by Charlatan Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:21 pm

I find the people of egypt like to enjoy their lives, like everybody else. They wear western clothes and use ipads like everyone else in the west. The difference lies in what is cool to do. Yes, for them it is cool to ride around in jeeps and shoot people, because that is what they see on television. The problem is not what is going on there, they are just easily influenced. If we were to ship a lot of peaceful comedies there, get them on television, they will change in no time.

The people that go to army would then be the recruiting influence on them, showing them that they can do as they please once empowered by a gun or bomb. Forget about insane factors and all that, they are human beings too. We see this in the west aswell, but blow a gasket when it happens overseas. I suggest that the reason they are doing this is because it is exciting and then also that they believe they will be blessed - influence from hardened older people, also encouraging them. Can you see a family that is having dinner, then afterwards the young people listen to bad people! These bad people are clerics and also people out of the army that show them how to make bombs, giving it a militant feel. Wouldn't it be nice if they could spray paint their rebellion rather than blow the wall up?

Of course it doesn't happen quite so often in the west. People get into it because they think, once again, it is 'cool!' They think they will be highly thought of by god or their friends and all that.

The way to show them it is not cool is how I have mentioned, or, take it to the media in these places and ask them what works fo their market, a market of easily influenced human beings. It is time to stop looking for differences and start to accept that they are merely in a state of poverty and would love to escape from that in this fantasy.

by oftenwrong Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:17 pm

Philosophy is often disregarded when Revolution is in the air.

by Charlatan Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:24 pm

I was hoping that the west would change it's attitude to the east. A change has to come, so why not be the first to start this positive change? If the west was to have it's top cocher stars go there, then they could act as ambassadors, and the east would see that this is real - good honest joyful lives. What they see of the west at the moment is a slave driving hard assed bunch of warmongers, and I suspect that is why they warmonger themselves.

What drives the east to look to blow things up, look for nukes? This all comes from the influence the people have over them, as people react to their 'habitat' and 'visual intake' like others do. It is for this reason I think that the west should try to get more influence over al jazeer and therefore local media to paint a truthful image of itself. This is not really a problem at the moment though as you do not find many people roaming the streets with banners demanding war.

But back to egypt. They have opted for a leader that is religious. These grounds leave a lot of imagery of egypt becoming the next saudi arabia, but that doesn't change the unemployment very much, except that all the women would have to resign and then all the men - all of them - would have jobs, leading to an income in every home. That will be what they set out to do, and is achievable if they restructure to the level of saudi arabia. Maybe they should even have this 'brotherhood' become a royal family? Then they would really have it to a T.

by Guest Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:46 pm

Females are not persons. Females are property.

If one wishes to advance this concept, if one wished to help push this concept into reality, then one should support the establishment of “Islamic” (quotes necessary) theocratic regimes whenever and wherever possible.

Saudi Arabia is an abomination upon the universe. God said, “Let us create man in our image, after our likeness… in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them…” Saudi Arabia’s two intertwined governments routinely violate the personhood of females, thus denying to females the status into which they have been created by God. Females possess an inalienable right to personhood and the rights and freedoms incumbent thereto, disparagable by no man, council of men, or government instituted among men, including those of any “brotherhood.”

If the fledging Egyptian government desires my support, the fledgling Egyptian government will fully commit itself to implementing this fundamental truth within its jurisdiction. If, conversely, the fledging Egyptian government wishes to emulate the despicable Saudi regime, let the fledging Egyptian government seek support from those that they emulate.

by Charlatan Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:52 pm

It is more important to have love of a family, something the west could learn from the east, and have a strong provider for all the families needs than to have rights. What good is a homeless woman in america for? Wouldn;t she rather be thought poorly of as a human being with lots of food and wine, love and sanctuary?

I say the west could learn from the east because there is a lot more focused on love there, it is nearly law. The practices of saudi arabia do not make their way onto cnn or sky news because they are not bad at all. They just infringe on their rights, but if that is all good with the culture, and the culture keeps everyone happy, being voted for in fact, then there is no problem.

by Guest Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:30 pm

Charlatan wrote:
It is more important to have love of a family, something the west could learn from the east, and have a strong provider for all the families needs than to have rights.

No. it is not. Governments are rightfully instituted among men, gender ”race”/ethnicity inclusive, to secure Creator-endowed inalienable rights unto all men, gender ”race”/ethnicity inclusive.

My dog died almost two years ago. As long as he had food and a place to sleep, he was happy. That’s the nature of dogs. The implied assumption that females are happy as long as they have food and a place to sleep equates females to dogs.

That’s what males do in Saudi Arabia, equate females to dogs. If females do as they are commanded by their masters (fathers, brothers, husbands, whichever applies), then their masters, being pleased, will give them food and a place to sleep. If females do not do as their masters command, then like dogs, they are subject to being removed from the living. Dogs are “put to sleep” (my dog wasn’t), or taken out to a field and “put down”, i.e., shot through the head (my dog wasn’t), while females are chained, thrown into the family swimming pool and drowned, or bound hand and foot, buried in a hole in the ground with their heads, or perhaps their upper bodies, exposed, and stoned to death, sometimes by having a dump truck unload its cargo of really big stones directly unto their helpless heads and bodies.

Charlatan wrote:
What good is a homeless woman in america for? Wouldn;t she rather be thought poorly of as a human being with lots of food and wine, love and sanctuary?

Why must a woman whose inalienable right to personhood is guaranteed and secured by the government of her country (which she co-owns) automatically be “homeless?”

Additionally, a “homeless” live woman is no doubt a wee bit happier that a drowned or stoned dead woman.

Charlatan wrote:
I say the west could learn from the east because there is a lot more focused on love there

There’s not a damned thing about love that I want to learn from “the east.”

My friend from “the east”, a devout Muslim who desired that his family live in freedom in America USV, was executed in his native Pakistan because he dared teach, from the Qur’an, that Muslims are called upon to treat Jews and Christians with dignity, honor, respect, and deference. I do not wish to learn anything about loving interaction from a culture that would execute this quiet human being for the crime of being noble, kind, and decent.

Charlatan wrote:
The practices of saudi Arabia… are not bad at all.

Yes they are.

Charlatan wrote:
but if that is all good with the culture, and the culture keeps everyone happy, being voted for in fact, then there is no problem.

Drowning and stoning women for being disobedient to their masters is definitely “a problem.”

by Charlatan Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:37 pm

Well, how often does this happen? I have heard of it once a year or so...

Let's look at this practically? If a woman gets to stay home, wear a burqu and send the children to do the shopping because they cannot drive, what harm is that? That is the reality. The rest is as if there was a death penalty with stricter laws. I hear of people dying in univercsity innitiation... That happens far more commonly.

by oftenwrong Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:53 pm

Ultimately, the only sensible course must be to eliminate all those who differ from our own customs.

Why can't everyone be like me?

by Guest Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:00 pm

Charlatan wrote:
Well, how often does this happen? I have heard of it once a year or so...

As often as their masters choose.

Charlatan wrote:
Let's look at this practically?

Okay.

I’m a man, and I want my woman (“my” as in “my property”) to do exactly what I want my property to do. Just like my dog, my horse, and my cow.

If my dog stops barking when evildoers approach my home, then he’s no longer mush good as a watchdog, so I’ll take him out in the field and put him down. If my horse gets too feeble to pull the plow, I’ll sell him to the glue factory, which, after removing his hooves, will sell him to the dog food factory, and later on I’ll buy a bit of My Friend Flicka in a can to feed to my new watchdog. If my cow stops giving milk, I’ll send her to the slaughterhouse for butchering, and I’ll have enough meat to last out the winter.

Now what should I do, “practically” speaking, to my woman when she stops making my breakfast every morning on time?

Charlatan wrote:
If a woman gets to stay home, wear a burqu and send the children to do the shopping because they cannot drive, what harm is that?

“The Greatest Harm Of All.” She has been stripped or her personhood and reduced to dog-hood, horse-hood, and/or cow-hood.

by Charlatan Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:14 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
Okay.

I’m a man, and I want my woman (“my” as in “my property”) to do exactly what I want my property to do. Just like my dog, my horse, and my cow.

If my dog stops barking when evildoers approach my home, then he’s no longer mush good as a watchdog, so I’ll take him out in the field and put him down. If my horse gets too feeble to pull the plow, I’ll sell him to the glue factory, which, after removing his hooves, will sell him to the dog food factory, and later on I’ll buy a bit of My Friend Flicka in a can to feed to my new watchdog. If my cow stops giving milk, I’ll send her to the slaughterhouse for butchering, and I’ll have enough meat to last out the winter.

Now what should I do, “practically” speaking, to my woman when she stops making my breakfast every morning on time?
[/color]

“The Greatest Harm Of All.” She has been stripped or her personhood and reduced to dog-hood, horse-hood, and/or cow-hood.
[/color]

They love them more than these animals because they marry them, divorce is frowned upon, and they need to fit into the society. You only get one dog per lifetime I hear!

Seriously, if you were to accept that they do not look at women this way, instead caring for them, as the clerics say they should, and observe that there are no streets full of bruised women, then you will understand that this doesn't happen everyday. It goes to court first, and upon breaking the laws, they are dealt with.

Think of our culture, is it a woman's world? Not? Well there is evidence of women being treated badly there too. I tell you fa more women are beaten and raped in this culture of ours than that of s.a. If you were to look at the figures, which i am having trouble getting my hands on, wait, let me go check again...

http://www.asafeworldforwomen.org/domestic-violence/saudi-arabia.html

http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

Well there you have it!

by Guest Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:25 pm

Charlatan wrote:
If a woman gets to stay home, wear a burqu and send the children to do the shopping because they cannot drive, what harm is that?

“The Greatest Harm Of All.” She has been stripped or her personhood and reduced to dog-hood, horse-hood, and/or cow-hood.

Listen to the lyrics.

Without land man never dreams cause he’s not free
All men need a place to live with dignity
Take the crumbs from starving soldiers, they won’t die
Lord said not by bread alone does man survive
Take the food from hungry children, they won’t cry
Food alone won’t ease the hunger in their eyes

by Guest Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:50 pm

Charlatan wrote:
I tell you fa more women are beaten and raped in this culture of ours than that of s.a. If you were to look at the figures, which i am having trouble getting my hands on, wait, let me go check again...

http://www.asafeworldforwomen.org/domestic-violence/saudi-arabia.html

http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

Well there you have it!

From your link:

“Saudi specialists and human rights activists have expressed concern about increasing cases of domestic violence in Saudi Arabia, recorded against women specifically.”

http://www.asafeworldforwomen.org/domestic-violence/saudi-arabia.html

by Charlatan Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:21 pm

[quote="RockOnBrother"]

Charlatan wrote:

“Saudi specialists and human rights activists have expressed concern about increasing cases of domestic violence in Saudi Arabia, recorded against women specifically.”

http://www.asafeworldforwomen.org/domestic-violence/saudi-arabia.html
[/color]

Yes, but have you compared the figures between the likes of s.a. being like four hundred over a year, with millions per year being assaulted in relationships over a year in america alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_domestic_violence

by Guest Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:36 am

Charlatan wrote:
I tell you fa more women are beaten and raped in this culture of ours than that of s.a. If you were to look at the figures, which i am having trouble getting my hands on, wait, let me go check again...

http://www.asafeworldforwomen.org/domestic-violence/saudi-arabia.html

http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

Well there you have it!

RockOnBrother wrote:

From your link:

“Saudi specialists and human rights activists have expressed concern about increasing cases of domestic violence in Saudi Arabia, recorded against women specifically.”

http://www.asafeworldforwomen.org/domestic-violence/saudi-arabia.html

Charlatan wrote:
Yes, but have you compared the figures between the likes of s.a. being like four hundred over a year, with millions per year being assaulted in relationships over a year in america alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_domestic_violence

From your link:

“Honor killing in the United States”
“Main article: Honor killing in the United States”
“An article in the Spring 2009 edition of the Middle East Quarterly, published by ^[53] Daniel Pipes, argues that the United States is far behind Europe in acknowledging that honor killings are a special form of domestic violence, requiring special training and special programs to protect the young Muslim women and girls most subject to it.^[54] The article suggests that the fear of being labeled ‘culturally insensitive’ (political correctness) prevents US government officials and the media from both identifying and accurately reporting these women’s murders as ‘honor killings’ when they occur.^[54] Failing to accurately describe the problem makes it more difficult to develop public policies to address it.^[54]”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_domestic_violence#Honor_killing_in_the_United_States

From the Main Article link:

“Palestina Isa”
“Sixteen-year-old Palestina (Tina) Isa was murdered by her father, Zein Isa, with the aid of her mother, Maria Isa, in 1989. The Isas were a family of Palestinian immigrants living in St. Louis, Missouri. After learning that Palestina had taken a part-time job without her parents' permission, and dated an African American, Maria held Palestina down, while Zein repeatedly stabbed her. ^[5]”

5. Smith, Erika Lyn. “Tina Isa America's Honor Killing”. Bella Online. Retrieved 2010-09-02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Palestina_Isa

“Sandeela Kanwal”
“In July 2008, New York Post writer John P. Avlon claimed that the murder of 25-year-old Sandeela Kanwal—allegedly by her father, Chaudhry Rashid—was an 'American Honor Killing.'^[7] Rashid is said to have strangled Kanwal to death with a bungee cord after she tried to end her arranged marriage.”

7. Avalon, John P. (July 23, 2008). “An American ‘Honor Killing’”. The New York Post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Sandeela_Kanwal

“Amina and Sarah Said”
“Amina and Sarah Said were the children of Egyptian Yaser Abdul Said and American Patricia Tissie Owens Said. Both girls were born in Texas. Amina was born on March 2, 1989 and Sarah March 16, 1990. The girls were found shot to death in a taxi at the Omni Mandalay Hotel, in Irving, Texas, January 1, 2008. Both girls had left their home in Lewisville, Texas earlier that evening, with their father Yaser Said. At 7:33 pm CT [Central Time] a call came in to the Irving Police Department’s 911 call center. The call was from Sarah Said. She had been shot 9 times and told the operator ‘My Dad shot me and my sister, I’m dying!’ Their mother, Patricia Said, claims both girls were killed for having boyfriends. Death threats had been made by Yaser against the girls. They ran away and were safe, but their mother brought them back. Yaser Said is still at large and at present time there is a $10,000 reward for his capture.^[8] Said has been featured on America's Most Wanted and a Fox News special about honor killings in America.^[9]”

8. Whitley, Glenna (June 19, 2008). “American Girls”. Dallas Observer
9. Gillet, Bud/url=http://cbs11tv.com/local/said.sisters.murder.2.1191394.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Amina_and_Sarah_Said

“Aasiya Zubair”
“In February 2009, Muzzammil Hassan was arrested and charged with murdering his estranged wife Aasiya Zubair with a knife.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Aasiya_Zubair

More on murder of Aasiya Zubair:
“In February 2009, Hassan was arrested and charged with beheading his estranged wife Aasiya Zubair.^[6] According to Orchard Park police, Hassan came to the police station at 6:20 pm on February 12, 2009, the day of the killing, and reported his wife dead. Her body was found at the TV station ^[6]^[12] Police had previously visited the Hassans' home in response to domestic incidents. They were most recently called to the residence February 6, 2009, the day Hassan was served with divorce papers and an order of protection,^[13] where it is reported he was banging on doors and even broke a window.^[13]”
“The divorce petition cited ‘violence and inhuman treatment’ as the reason… Sources claimed to be close to the case said hunting knives were used to commit the crime.^[15]”

6. CNN: Founder of Islamic TV station accused of beheading wife (February 16, 2009)
12. Muslim TV exec accused of beheading wife in NY AP, 2009-02-17
13. Bridges TV Accessed 17 February 2009
15. The Buffalo News: Slain Orchard Park woman was stabbed before beheading (02/21/09)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzammil_Hassan#Reaction_to_arrest

(All above quoted/referenced text from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

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by Shirina Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:25 am

Yes, but have you compared the figures between the likes of s.a. being like four hundred over a year, with millions per year being assaulted in relationships over a year in america alone.

In a land governed by laws that oppress women, what do you suppose is the percentage of reported cases as opposed to cases that never see the light of day?

In the US, domestic violence laws are very strict so even the slightest thing can result in a charge being levied against one or both parties. The slightest push, verbal threats, even if you break your own property in the heat of anger can land you in jail on domestic assault charges. In the latter case, you don't even have to touch another human being - just smashing a dish during an argument can get you brought up on charges. The vast majority are misdemeanor in nature and are not "serious" assaults. This accounts for the "millions" (assuming there are that many) domestic assault cases in the US. Remember that statistics only count domestic assaults as charged and does not differentiate between a husband beating the crap out of his wife, and a wife who simply grabbed her husband's arm to keep him from walking away.

We also live in a culture where women, especially, are encouraged to file charges against abusive husbands and boyfriends. Even the police will try to coax scared women into pressing charges. Do you think the culture of Saudi Arabia encourages abused women to come forward?

by Guest Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:41 am

RockOnBrother wrote:

“Palestina Isa”
“Sixteen-year-old Palestina (Tina) Isa was murdered by her father, Zein Isa, with the aid of her mother, Maria Isa, in 1989. The Isas were a family of Palestinian immigrants living in St. Louis, Missouri. After learning that Palestina had taken a part-time job without her parents' permission, and dated an African American, Maria held Palestina down, while Zein repeatedly stabbed her. ^[5]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Palestina_Isa

“Sandeela Kanwal”
“In July 2008, New York Post writer John P. Avlon claimed that the murder of 25-year-old Sandeela Kanwal—allegedly by her father, Chaudhry Rashid—was an 'American Honor Killing.'^[7] Rashid is said to have strangled Kanwal to death with a bungee cord after she tried to end her arranged marriage.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Sandeela_Kanwal

“Amina and Sarah Said”
“Amina and Sarah Said were the children of Egyptian Yaser Abdul Said and American Patricia Tissie Owens Said. Both girls were born in Texas. Amina was born on March 2, 1989 and Sarah March 16, 1990. The girls were found shot to death in a taxi at the Omni Mandalay Hotel, in Irving, Texas, January 1, 2008. Both girls had left their home in Lewisville, Texas earlier that evening, with their father Yaser Said. At 7:33 pm CT [Central Time] a call came in to the Irving Police Department’s 911 call center. The call was from Sarah Said. She had been shot 9 times and told the operator ‘My Dad shot me and my sister, I’m dying!’ Their mother, Patricia Said, claims both girls were killed for having boyfriends. Death threats had been made by Yaser against the girls. They ran away and were safe, but their mother brought them back. Yaser Said is still at large and at present time there is a $10,000 reward for his capture.^[8] Said has been featured on America's Most Wanted and a Fox News special about honor killings in America.^[9]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Amina_and_Sarah_Said

“Aasiya Zubair”
“In February 2009, Muzzammil Hassan was arrested and charged with murdering his estranged wife Aasiya Zubair with a knife.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing_in_the_United_States#Aasiya_Zubair

“In February 2009, Hassan was arrested and charged with beheading his estranged wife Aasiya Zubair.^[6] According to Orchard Park police, Hassan came to the police station at 6:20 pm on February 12, 2009, the day of the killing, and reported his wife dead. Her body was found at the TV station ^[6]^[12] Police had previously visited the Hassans' home in response to domestic incidents. They were most recently called to the residence February 6, 2009, the day Hassan was served with divorce papers and an order of protection,^[13] where it is reported he was banging on doors and even broke a window.^[13]”
“The divorce petition cited ‘violence and inhuman treatment’ as the reason… Sources claimed to be close to the case said hunting knives were used to commit the crime.^[15]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzammil_Hassan#Reaction_to_arrest

Questions which “pop” into my mid, accompanied by answers which “pop” into my mind:

Question: Would Zein Isa and Maria Isa have been arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced for the murder of their sixteen-year-old daughter Palestina (Tina) Isa in Saudi Arabia?
Answer: No. In Saudi Arabia, a father is free to dispose of his property as he sees fit, and his wife (also his property) is obligated to help him do so.

Question: Would Chaudhry Rashid have been arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced for the murder of his twenty-five-year-old daughter Sandeela Kanwal in Saudi Arabia?
Answer: No. In Saudi Arabia, a father is free to dispose of his property as he sees fit.

Question: Would Yaser Abdul Said have been arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced for the murders of his eighteen-year-old daughter Amina Said and his seventeen-year-old daughter Sarah Said in Saudi Arabia?
Answer: No. In Saudi Arabia, a father is free to dispose of his property as he sees fit.

Question: Would Muzzammil Hassan have been arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced for the murder of his wife Aasiya Zubair in Saudi Arabia?
Answer: No. In Saudi Arabia, a husband is free to dispose of his property as he sees fit.

(All above quoted/referenced text from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

(Wikipedia) Creative Commons Deed

You are free:

to Share—to copy, distribute and transmit the work, and
to Remix—to adapt the work

Under the following conditions:

Attribution—You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work.)
Share Alike—If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.

Retrieved 2 August 2011 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License

by Charlatan Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:31 am

Are you people saying these figures are wrong? The people that compile them would like to argue I will wager. The point is that there is no mass assaults in suadi arabia on women - it happens so seldomn.

by oftenwrong Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:31 pm

So many experts, so few resolutions.

by Charlatan Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:50 am

So, is anyone opposed to there being a religious party taking control of egypt? They say the people want it, it seems to be peaceful... what would be the problem?

by methought Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:25 pm

The man on the street in Egypt tells me that the Muslim Brotherhood is the political wing of Al Qaeda. This disappointed man tells me that they had a revolution to get rid of a corrupt police force, to get rule of law, and Human Rights. They got hardline Saudi Islamists and elected them democratically. Women have fewer rights now than before the revolution and the government crackdown on free speech has already seen a popular comedian arrested.

This man on the street told me that Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood are backed by an alliance of Saudis, Israelis and Americans. I disputed this and said I thought it was an absurd notion. He said that I should look at the outcomes of the Arab Spring across the region. People are still being killed in Iraq and there is no stable government infrastructure. People are still being killed in Libya, and in both countries the multi-nationals have tied up the oil supplies. There is no credible opposition across the region to Israel's potential to expand its borders, and its control over the banking system is watertight.

I haven't read Saif's discredited PhD thesis but I asked why we were attacking a country because of a plagiarised thesis and a man in a newspaper comment told me it was because his thesis was about establishing a pan-African banking system along Islamic lines.

Osama Bin Laden may have been the Lenin of the Islamic revolution, but he had allies who stood to gain what was most important to them. Strange bed-fellows indeed...

by boatlady Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:18 pm

Are you in Egypt, then, methought?
Sort of assumed you were in England.
Interesting points - would like to read more about this - maybe you can point me to some useful stuff?

by oftenwrong Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:20 pm

Even the merest glimpse of Egypt's experience at the hands of Colonial Powers explains why the People are now trying to decide their own destiny.

None of them thought it would be easy.

by methought Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Are you in Egypt, then, methought?
Sort of assumed you were in England.
Interesting points - would like to read more about this - maybe you can point me to some useful stuff?

LOL - I just enjoyed a week by the pool in a nice hotel.

My info just comes from the Quality newspapers and News channels - with a little twist of interpretation courtesy of moi.

I just start with considering the outcomes and whose interests the actions serve, and then I work backwards from there, boatlady.

I could be wrong - no probs :farao:

by oftenwrong Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:54 pm

I think that the entire Tory-led Coalition is entitled to "a week by the pool in a nice hotel".

Ferchrissake get them out of here before they destroy the entire Nation.

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