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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?
 
The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:54 am

blueturando wrote:
We need to ditch the enterprise culture, because this gives way to greed and exploitation of the worst kind.

Morning Ivanhoe.....This is the only flaw in your plan as without enterprise you would not be able to generate the funds you require for you social programme....Unless you have another plan that is?

Morning Bluey, please read again my posting, it's all there, it's all covered.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:02 pm

We need to remove any reasons for the British working man and woman to strike. Fairness must be the order of the way, which means consolidation all round between manufacturing, business, workers, and Unions.

I take it you mean re-nationalising businesses? If that is so, how are we going to be competetive on the world stage unless you then have a closed shop?
History tell us that most if not all nationalised businesses dont make a profit and are more likely to be loss making

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:28 pm

blueturando wrote:
We need to remove any reasons for the British working man and woman to strike. Fairness must be the order of the way, which means consolidation all round between manufacturing, business, workers, and Unions.

I take it you mean re-nationalising businesses? If that is so, how are we going to be competetive on the world stage unless you then have a closed shop?
History tell us that most if not all nationalised businesses dont make a profit and are more likely to be loss making

The Tory idea of being competitive Bluey, is to pay workers as little as possible. This isnt being competitive, it's outright exploitation, and you know it.

If Britain wants to retain its "great", it should lead from the front and even possibly with all that I have mentioned, become a full part of the EU, including adoping the Euro'.

Europe is the worlds largest manufacturing and business base. Their workers are treated much better than our workers. Their industries re- the knowledge I have been given, are indeed nationalised in the sense that they are invested into, with subsidy when needed.

The free market culture you refer to began with Thatcher when exploitation was the order of the day, New Labour ended this when they returned a minimum wage to this country.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Scarecrow on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:14 pm

Ivanhoe , after reading your OP , you state the obvious regarding the unfairness that exists in Britain today , but the utopian dream of adopting Europe's Social Charter which is a legalised framework preventing workers exploitation is pie in the sky with Cameron and the gang , the fact we are not tied by the charter serves as a big WELCOME sign to foreign corporates to invest . Regarding ditching the enterprise culture, because this gives way to greed and exploitation of the worst kind , well blueturando hits the nail on the head , "not all nationalised businesses make a profit and are more likely to be loss making.

The UK is a busted flush , the people have been sold down the river over and over again. We live in a 21st century that still dictates that in the Lords , they pick up £300 a day , £ 1500 pounds a week for sitting in the Lords listening to others speeches and bills and amendments , this is outrageous , this in the mother of all parliaments , where MPs can smoke in the bars of parliament , yet the public cannot smoke in pubs and face a hefty fine if they do in a public bar , this is democracy in action british style.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:38 pm

Scarecrow wrote:Ivanhoe , after reading your OP , you state the obvious regarding the unfairness that exists in Britain today , but the utopian dream of adopting Europe's Social Charter which is a legalised framework preventing workers exploitation is pie in the sky with Cameron and the gang , the fact we are not tied by the charter serves as a big WELCOME sign to foreign corporates to invest . Regarding ditching the enterprise culture, because this gives way to greed and exploitation of the worst kind , well blueturando hits the nail on the head , "not all nationalised businesses make a profit and are more likely to be loss making.

The UK is a busted flush , the people have been sold down the river over and over again. We live in a 21st century that still dictates that in the Lords , they pick up £300 a day , £ 1500 pounds a week for sitting in the Lords listening to others speeches and bills and amendments , this is outrageous , this in the mother of all parliaments , where MPs can smoke in the bars of parliament , yet the public cannot smoke in pubs and face a hefty fine if they do in a public bar , this is democracy in action british style.

Of course it is and has been for generations. Surely you know that. We're known worldwide for our 'oddness' to put it mildly.

Noel Coward had it right when he wrote his song 'Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun'. And it still happens. Go out on the beaches of the Med. on a boiling hot day. Who are there in their thousands. The English. While the 'natives' take their 'siesta'.Smile If you don't know the song it's worth a 'read' on 'LyricsMania' web site. Or you can listen to/download it free.

I love it, but then I'm definitely mad.Very Happy
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:42 pm

blueturando wrote:
We need to remove any reasons for the British working man and woman to strike. Fairness must be the order of the way, which means consolidation all round between manufacturing, business, workers, and Unions.

I take it you mean re-nationalising businesses? If that is so, how are we going to be competetive on the world stage unless you then have a closed shop?
History tell us that most if not all nationalised businesses dont make a profit and are more likely to be loss making

So that is why Thatcher privatized everything in sight, is that the only thing that concerns the Tory party is competitive in other words make loads a money no matter what the cost is to anybody else, I know that business must make a profit to re-invest in that business and to make it worth while for the owner but profit and I think that the people that make the profit are the workers and they should be considered and paid a fair wage.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:43 pm

I take it you mean re-nationalising businesses? If that is so, how are we going to be competetive on the world stage unless

Blue,


If the French Gubmint removes it's stakes in Dassault, Renault, Puegeot, Citroen, Compagnie de Suez and Lyonnaise des Eaux, a leading French water company, Airbus, Airfrance and many many others, these companies would be out of business! You know it as well as I!


The British cabal of troughites in Westminster can adopt the same ethic and so help British Industry,

Why don't they?

Purleeze do not say it would take a change in the law of this land, as Cameron has stood by while his cohorts have changed laws without Royal Assent!


EDIT!
And ALL the companies to do with the French Railway operations as well too also


Last edited by astra on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by witchfinder on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:51 pm

"Britain needs social housing on mass" [Ivanhoe]

I could not agree more, been a Labour voter I feel that this has been the biggest let-down in recent times from a Labour government, yes there has been some progress, and some good policies and ideas, but the level of social house building has barely scratched the surface of the problem

The problem we have at present is the we have a government committed to political dogma, and not committed to a fair society for all, the Tories believe that public and state services are incapable of everything, whilst private business must run everything - no matter what.

In a fair and decent society, some things are best left to the public sector, and other things are best left to the private sector, whatever benefits society as a whole.

The Labour Party ditched political dogma for "the third way" but the Conservatives havent changed at all.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:15 pm

"Britain needs social housing on mass" [Ivanhoe

Couldn't agree more. And not 'tomorrow' either. A local council is giving a million pounds to help locals with their deposit for a house. Commendable.

But we need to take all the empty houses, empty army barracks, airfield accommodation and refit. Create our own nationalised country 'building firm' to accomplish this where private companies will not entertain the idea. There are 100's of thousands of empty houses, factories, old offices that could be used. Not always ideal, but there are people who would love to live in them. These should be compulsorily purchased and used. Not sold to private building companies.

And we're not short of labour either.

I would be willing to give a hand. I'm quite good with electrics. Well I can change a car battery, anyway.Embarassed
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:24 pm

Redflag wrote:
blueturando wrote:
We need to remove any reasons for the British working man and woman to strike. Fairness must be the order of the way, which means consolidation all round between manufacturing, business, workers, and Unions.

I take it you mean re-nationalising businesses? If that is so, how are we going to be competetive on the world stage unless you then have a closed shop?
History tell us that most if not all nationalised businesses dont make a profit and are more likely to be loss making

So that is why Thatcher privatized everything in sight, is that the only thing that concerns the Tory party is competitive in other words make loads a money no matter what the cost is to anybody else, I know that business must make a profit to re-invest in that business and to make it worth while for the owner but profit and I think that the people that make the profit are the workers and they should be considered and paid a fair wage.

Well put Redflag.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:37 pm

Ok lets take mass manufacturing...can any of you please tell me how we are going to compete with China or other similar countries...And serious answers please not fantasy leftie gobbledygook

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:43 pm

blueturando wrote:Ok lets take mass manufacturing...can any of you please tell me how we are going to compete with China or other similar countries...And serious answers please not fantasy leftie gobbledygook

We make our workers work for nothing Bluey.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:59 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
blueturando wrote:Ok lets take mass manufacturing...can any of you please tell me how we are going to compete with China or other similar countries...And serious answers please not fantasy leftie gobbledygook

We make our workers work for nothing Bluey.

Extract from 'the thoughts of Chairman Cameron'.Smile
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:50 pm

witchfinder wrote:"Britain needs social housing on mass" [Ivanhoe]

I could not agree more, been a Labour voter I feel that this has been the biggest let-down in recent times from a Labour government, yes there has been some progress, and some good policies and ideas, but the level of social house building has barely scratched the surface of the problem

The problem we have at present is the we have a government committed to political dogma, and not committed to a fair society for all, the Tories believe that public and state services are incapable of everything, whilst private business must run everything - no matter what.

In a fair and decent society, some things are best left to the public sector, and other things are best left to the private sector, whatever benefits society as a whole.

The Labour Party ditched political dogma for "the third way" but the Conservatives havent changed at all.

witchfinder, Blair and Brown's "third way" was continued free market Thatcherism, with means tested handouts the the rest of us.

If ever a Government wasted a massive mandate from the British public, to clear up the 18 year mess and legacy left b y Thatcher, Blair and Brown did just that.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:19 pm

...can any of you please tell me how we are going to compete with China or other similar countries


Well, it won't be as has been done in the past, whereby, we develop and produce machinery which the Chinese etc hire for 6 months, reverse engineer, plagiarise and sell off. WITHOUT ever returning the original article.

A company here, developed a product which could repaint a boeing 737, in half the time it took conventional methods, and used one third of the paint and primer!

Even after 7 years fighting, the machine has not been returned.

Iffin the chinks want it durty sur! Let 'em have it!


The present pussy footing about with them patently is not working in our favour.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:34 pm

astra wrote:
...can any of you please tell me how we are going to compete with China or other similar countries


Well, it won't be as has been done in the past, whereby, we develop and produce machinery which the Chinese etc hire for 6 months, reverse engineer, plagiarise and sell off. WITHOUT ever returning the original article.

A company here, developed a product which could repaint a boeing 737, in half the time it took conventional methods, and used one third of the paint and primer!

Even after 7 years fighting, the machine has not been returned.

Iffin the chinks want it durty sur! Let 'em have it!


The present pussy footing about with them patently is not working in our favour.



How many inventions have we lost though lack on investment in this country.

One that nearly got away, I believe, was the Hovercraft. Recognised that it might have potential in the defence field, but no government department would finance it. I think it was only saved because rumours said that another country was experimenting with the idea.

I guess some of you can come up with other items. I know that we have lost out in the drug field occasionally, or so a chemist friend tells me.

Why are we so shortsighted. Oh, of course, we're British.

Why are we so reticent in taking chances in investing. We allow so much of our services to be sold overseas instead of investing in them ourselves. Electricity supplied by European owned utility companies. Banks owned by foreign banks. Airports by a Spanish company, BAA. And others you can name. All these are no longer under our control, and could end up in 'anyone's' hands.

Perhaps we should award ourselves the title UK International - 2nd Class. Or am I just pessimistic:roll:
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:58 pm

blueturando wrote:Ok lets take mass manufacturing...can any of you please tell me how we are going to compete with China or other similar countries...And serious answers please not fantasy leftie gobbledygook

What do you want blue? Right Wing Drivel and B/S
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:45 pm

Bluey, The simple answer to the problem, is you dont compete with China. What you do is to tax their goods so that very few westerners will want to buy them. You know the same as they do with western goods. They and Japan are the most protectionist nations you can find to deal with. Try to export anything to either, and irrespective of your price or deal, they will tax them to the hilt so very few chinks could ever purchase them.
I said on another board, what Italy had to do to combat Japanese Protectionism. Large Italian Motor cycles have always held there own on the world markets, so the Japs built a range of small bikes that could compete with the Italian counterpart. The Japs put such a high rate of import duty on any Motor Bikes getting into Japan, making it a one way market. Italy led by the industrialist Alexandro DiTomaso by way of defence got the Italian Government to do the same to Japan as they where doing to Italy, Massive import duties where put on small Jap Bikes. All you need to do to see the outcome is to look at how many Motor Cycle manufacturers there is in Italy Today, and most are producing small machines.

We in the UK tend to worry too much about people who don’t give a shit for us, so perhaps a bit of a protectionist attitude to those that are that way inclined towards might be the answer.

I am fully aware that with our present post Thatcher manufacturing base it would be difficult. But why shouldn’t or couldn’t a government build factories and run services at a profit. What’s gone wrong in the past is that the Nationalised industries we had where used as political footballs, then the Government wonder why the workforce are unsettled and militant. Start a good Company, give a decent wage and human working conditions, and you end up with a happy workforce producing the Goods we would otherwise be getting from China, the goods made to the standards that British engineering can build will stand up to any of the cheap stuff made in Chinkland, and will sell for a better price. People in the main, don’t mind paying more, if they are getting more for it.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:51 pm

How many inventions have we lost though lack on investment in this country

Texting on mobile phones - a British invention Given (with rights) to Finland - Nokia
Clean Burn Coal technology - GIVEN (with rights) to Sweden and used now in Stockholm
Harrier Jump Jet. The Americans bought a few during the First Gulf War and because they made over 14 changes to the aircraft, it no longer was the original design, so they bypassed, quite deliberately any of the copyright and patent legislation. Then proceeded to manufacture them at will.

The Shaft Drive in motorcycles, going back a bit now! Douglas was the first motorcycle manufacturer to produce a shaft drive (When Douglas went under, Sunbeam took the mantle - still no patent though!) to the rear wheel on a motorcycle. Metal chains were just coming in, and the Douglas Company wanted a rear wheel drive that would not keep stretching as the leather link 'chain did especially with a sidecar fitted. BMW picked up the designs and 'adopted' the idea, and in 1926 made a dynasty of bikes with this drive, which they still produce today.


Last edited by astra on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:55 pm

bobby wrote:Bluey, The simple answer to the problem, is you dont compete with China. What you do is to tax their goods so that very few westerners will want to buy them. You know the same as they do with western goods. They and Japan are the most protectionist nations you can find to deal with. Try to export anything to either, and irrespective of your price or deal, they will tax them to the hilt so very few chinks could ever purchase them.
I said on another board, what Italy had to do to combat Japanese Protectionism. Large Italian Motor cycles have always held there own on the world markets, so the Japs built a range of small bikes that could compete with the Italian counterpart. The Japs put such a high rate of import duty on any Motor Bikes getting into Japan, making it a one way market. Italy led by the industrialist Alexandro DiTomaso by way of defence got the Italian Government to do the same to Japan as they where doing to Italy, Massive import duties where put on small Jap Bikes. All you need to do to see the outcome is to look at how many Motor Cycle manufacturers there is in Italy Today, and most are producing small machines.

We in the UK tend to worry too much about people who don’t give a shit for us, so perhaps a bit of a protectionist attitude to those that are that way inclined towards might be the answer.

I am fully aware that with our present post Thatcher manufacturing base it would be difficult. But why shouldn’t or couldn’t a government build factories and run services at a profit. What’s gone wrong in the past is that the Nationalised industries we had where used as political footballs, then the Government wonder why the workforce are unsettled and militant. Start a good Company, give a decent wage and human working conditions, and you end up with a happy workforce producing the Goods we would otherwise be getting from China, the goods made to the standards that British engineering can build will stand up to any of the cheap stuff made in Chinkland, and will sell for a better price. People in the main, don’t mind paying more, if they are getting more for it.

A great summary bobby...as we need to compete on quality not quantity like Italy did with bikes...its that simple yes bob? in fact we still just about have a very good standard of engineering that is fighting a losing battle with no government backing...that is a great sadness too me...bet it is too you too bob?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:58 pm

astra wrote:
How many inventions have we lost though lack on investment in this country

Texting on mobile phones - a British invention Given (with rights) to Finland - Nokia
Clean Burn Coal technology - GIVEN (with rights) to Sweden and used now in Stockholm
Harrier Jump Jet. The Americans bought a few during the First Gulf War and because they made over 14 changes to the aircraft, it no longer was the original design, so they bypassed, quite deliberately any of the copyright and patent legislation. Then proceeded to manufacture them at will.

The Shaft Drive in motorcycles, going back a bit now! Douglas was the first motorcycle manufacturer to produce a shaft drive (When Douglas went under, Sunbeam took the mantle - still no patent though!) to the rear wheel on a motorcycle. Metal chains were just coming in, and the Douglas Company wanted a rear wheel drive that would not keep stretching as the leather link 'chain did especially with a sidecar fitted. BMW picked up the designs and 'adopted' the idea, and in 1926 made a dynasty of bikes with this drive, which they still produce today.

hi astra
a good post and well summed up as well
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:00 pm

Stox, Bobby, if French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same.

Labour had many years to change the tide and wasted the opportunity!

Would Milliband be ANY different?




Sorry to MR Milliband for the typo! What a Face I seem to have Mandelson on the brain for some reason (He used to be a local MP no use to slug or mushroom then OR now)
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:34 pm

astra wrote:Stox, Bobby, if French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same.

Labour had many years to change the tide and wasted the opportunity!

Would Milliband be ANY different?




Sorry to MR Milliband for the typo! What a Face I seem to have Mandelson on the brain for some reason (He used to be a local MP no use to slug or mushroom then OR now)

"""""If French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same ?""


astra, It's because the right of the Tory party in Government, and since Thatcher, do not want the British people working as an inflatiionary tool, they want the Britrish on the dole where they can be controlled and on benefits. We always have recessions under the right wing, because their economic policy is stringent, short terrm, insecure, and low waged, and that's the way the Tories like it.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:38 pm

astra wrote:Stox, Bobby, if French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same.

Labour had many years to change the tide and wasted the opportunity!

Would Milliband be ANY different?




Sorry to MR Milliband for the typo! What a Face I seem to have Mandelson on the brain for some reason (He used to be a local MP no use to slug or mushroom then OR now)

Hello astra
Well I happen to think he would...now you could say lessons learnt...its far to clear that we have to change our economy and I for one will fight for this to change...but we need a government who is to back manufacturing and not just the banking sector astra....Let face it...we have so far back them to the tune of £350 billion. just think what could be done if we back manufacturing with that sort of money?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:40 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
astra wrote:Stox, Bobby, if French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same.

Labour had many years to change the tide and wasted the opportunity!

Would Milliband be ANY different?




Sorry to MR Milliband for the typo! What a Face I seem to have Mandelson on the brain for some reason (He used to be a local MP no use to slug or mushroom then OR now)

"""""If French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same ?""


astra, It's because the right of the Tory party in Government, and since Thatcher, do not want the British people working as an inflatiionary tool, they want the Britrish on the dole where they can be controlled and on benefits. We always have recessions under the right wing, because their economic policy is stringent, short terrm, insecure, and low waged, and that's the way the Tories like it.

Hello Ivanhoe
once more your spot on mate..no flies on you mate ha ha
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:46 pm

Stox 16 wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
astra wrote:Stox, Bobby, if French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same.

Labour had many years to change the tide and wasted the opportunity!

Would Milliband be ANY different?




Sorry to MR Milliband for the typo! What a Face I seem to have Mandelson on the brain for some reason (He used to be a local MP no use to slug or mushroom then OR now)

"""""If French politicians can back THEIR industry, why can't our politicos do the same ?""


astra, It's because the right of the Tory party in Government, and since Thatcher, do not want the British people working as an inflatiionary tool, they want the Britrish on the dole where they can be controlled and on benefits. We always have recessions under the right wing, because their economic policy is stringent, short terrm, insecure, and low waged, and that's the way the Tories like it.

Hello Ivanhoe
once more your spot on mate..no flies on you mate ha ha

Hello Stox 16. No, no flies, just bugs, namely this coalition, and a huge amount of British people who just are not polically minded.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:47 pm

The banks are bleeding Britain dry!

All the privitisations were at their behest, and now OUR taxes go to "public" companies and is bounced straight into the hands of shareholders, then to the banks. They have got away with highway robbery on a scale that would make Dick Turpin wince.
£ for £ of our tax paid into the railway has always been the same sum paid out in dividends. Good if you can get it!


On the Technology Britain has given away, look up Sir Stafford Cripps and his wheeze with the Rolls Royce Nene Jet Engine! Britain should be riding on the crest of a wave on the royalties from the Jet Engine alone!
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:00 pm

astra wrote:The banks are bleeding Britain dry!

All the privitisations were at their behest, and now OUR taxes go to "public" companies and is bounced straight into the hands of shareholders, then to the banks. They have got away with highway robbery on a scale that would make Dick Turpin wince.
£ for £ of our tax paid into the railway has always been the same sum paid out in dividends. Good if you can get it!


On the Technology Britain has given away, look up Sir Stafford Cripps and his wheeze with the Rolls Royce Nene Jet Engine! Britain should be riding on the crest of a wave on the royalties from the Jet Engine alone!

Britain has been controlled by ultra right wing facist Tory's for over 30 years, and they have gotten away with turning our country into a wasteland. There is misery and destituation abound.

Blair and Brown had 13 years to turn things round but they didnt because their sights were tuned into on getting and keeping the vote of middle England.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:55 pm

"MPs can smoke in the bars of parliament " No they can't.



Palace of Westminster: Smoking
House of Commons Commission
Hansard source (Citation: HC Deb, 11 June 2007, c735W)

"The Health Act 2006 introduces a ban on smoking in workplaces and enclosed or substantially enclosed public places from 1 July 2007. While the Act does not formally apply on the parliamentary estate, the Commission, on the advice of the Administration Committee, has decided that the House should comply with the principles of the legislation, as it is not desirable that those who work on or visit the parliamentary estate should be treated differently in this respect than in other workplaces and public places. The Commission recognises, however, that many who work on the estate are unavoidably present for long periods, particularly when the House is sitting. It is therefore desirable to make reasonable provision for those who wish to smoke to do so, provided that the health and safety of other users of the estate is not adversely affected.

With these principles in mind, the Commission has decided that smoking should cease to be permitted from 1 July 2007 in all internal areas of the House of Commons estate, including in bars and private offices. From that date smoking will, however, be permitted in four designated external areas: the Terrace, Commons Court (North West corner), North Terrace (between Portcullis House and Norman Shaw South), and in a designated area on the west side of Canon Row courtyard. Cigarette receptacles will be provided in these areas. "No Smoking" signs will be displayed at entrances to the buildings.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:05 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
blueturando wrote:
We need to remove any reasons for the British working man and woman to strike. Fairness must be the order of the way, which means consolidation all round between manufacturing, business, workers, and Unions.

I take it you mean re-nationalising businesses? If that is so, how are we going to be competetive on the world stage unless you then have a closed shop?
History tell us that most if not all nationalised businesses dont make a profit and are more likely to be loss making

The Tory idea of being competitive Bluey, is to pay workers as little as possible. This isnt being competitive, it's outright exploitation, and you know it.

If Britain wants to retain its "great", it should lead from the front and even possibly with all that I have mentioned, become a full part of the EU, including adoping the Euro'.

Europe is the worlds largest manufacturing and business base. Their workers are treated much better than our workers. Their industries re- the knowledge I have been given, are indeed nationalised in the sense that they are invested into, with subsidy when needed.

The free market culture you refer to began with Thatcher when exploitation was the order of the day, New Labour ended this when they returned a minimum wage to this country.

Ivanhoe I agree with everything you have said except joining the Euro, One size does not suit all as Greece Portugal Spain and Italy is proving and things could get worse if Greece tells the EU where to put there Austerity and that will happen sooner or later due to the severe Austerity that they have to put up with.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:03 pm

All I want to ask of the Labour supporters on here is:

Do you think Miliband wants to take the party back to the left...and if so, what in your view would that mean to Britain....or

Do you think he will carry on the New Labour and Blair mantra that won 3 successive GE's

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:02 pm

Ed Milliband is too the left of the Labour Party, but that does not mean he is anything like Michael Foot.
I am convinced he is a realistic and sensible leader as he will be Prime Minister. The modern Labour party fully realise the need for successful business, as if there is no business there is no jobs. This is where the Tory party fell down massively, in their war against the Unions, they ended up throwing the baby out with the bath water, yes they defeated the Unions (who incidentally have been proven right in what they said and what they did). We now have a population that needs and should have work with a living wage as a right, not as a handout. And certainly not to be used as pawns in some sick Game you Tories are playing.

In another post I said that “It os not in the interest of this government to solve our economic problem as it would remove their excuses for making the decisions they are making based on nothing else but Tory Ideology.

The Labour Party in George Brown and Alastair Darling, not only prevented Britain going into Depression,they very quickly got us out of recession and very soon got the economy rising with unemployment reducing, I personally don’t give a shit what the Tories have to say about that as the truth is the truth and is there for all to see. This wasn’t done by any Government investment, but by creating an atmosphere of trust (until the filthy Tory media got to work) whereby people would invest in their already existing companie, and not increasing the welfare burden by putting thousands on benefits and out of Tax payments to the treasury. They said then as does Ed Milliband now, they would cut the deficit by half in the first parliamentary term, in my opinion a totally realistic aspiration.

What Tony Blair achieved was to take the then unelectable Labour party to new grounds in his third way. Previously we had Labour looking after the workers to the determent of business and the Tories looking after the rich and powerful, as they still are and remain unchanged.

The days of each group of people having a political party just for them has long gone, hopefully never to return, but we do need and are entitled to is fairness Not Herr Cameron’s Fairness, as to him its just a word, but real fairness, where people are rewarded for what they do and achieve and get stuffed when they don’t. To achieve this we need industry, not a government like this and previous Tory Government who destroy industry. Britain can not compete with China or India in cheap mass produced goods, but could hold our own with High end quality goods as we used to.

This country is going to the dogs but for the bastards who are sending us there will not be effected on iota, as they have their mansions out in the country and the wherewithal to buy just about anything they desire. They like their supporters do not care for Mr or Mrs average, they only care for themselves.

If it was not for the iran war, and the Global Credit Crunch, Labour would have had another term in office, of that I have no doubt. Had we have had a Tory Government, we still would have gone to War against Saddam Hussein, and the Credit Crunch would have hit us no matter who was in power, what did matter was how it was dealt with, and George Brown and Alastair Darling acted brilliantly, so much so, that Obama addopted their idea's and are now enjoying growth with lowering unemployement, so who was right.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:38 pm

blueturando wrote:All I want to ask of the Labour supporters on here is:

Do you think Miliband wants to take the party back to the left...and if so, what in your view would that mean to Britain....or

Do you think he will carry on the New Labour and Blair mantra that won 3 successive GE's

IMHO it will be somewhere in the middle of both a bit more left and a bit from the Blair era, hope that answers you questions.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:05 pm

bobby wrote:Ed Milliband is too the left of the Labour Party, but that does not mean he is anything like Michael Foot.
I am convinced he is a realistic and sensible leader as he will be Prime Minister. The modern Labour party fully realise the need for successful business, as if there is no business there is no jobs. This is where the Tory party fell down massively, in their war against the Unions, they ended up throwing the baby out with the bath water, yes they defeated the Unions (who incidentally have been proven right in what they said and what they did). We now have a population that needs and should have work with a living wage as a right, not as a handout. And certainly not to be used as pawns in some sick Game you Tories are playing.

In another post I said that “It os not in the interest of this government to solve our economic problem as it would remove their excuses for making the decisions they are making based on nothing else but Tory Ideology.

The Labour Party in George Brown and Alastair Darling, not only prevented Britain going into Depression,they very quickly got us out of recession and very soon got the economy rising with unemployment reducing, I personally don’t give a shit what the Tories have to say about that as the truth is the truth and is there for all to see. This wasn’t done by any Government investment, but by creating an atmosphere of trust (until the filthy Tory media got to work) whereby people would invest in their already existing companie, and not increasing the welfare burden by putting thousands on benefits and out of Tax payments to the treasury. They said then as does Ed Milliband now, they would cut the deficit by half in the first parliamentary term, in my opinion a totally realistic aspiration.

What Tony Blair achieved was to take the then unelectable Labour party to new grounds in his third way. Previously we had Labour looking after the workers to the determent of business and the Tories looking after the rich and powerful, as they still are and remain unchanged.

The days of each group of people having a political party just for them has long gone, hopefully never to return, but we do need and are entitled to is fairness Not Herr Cameron’s Fairness, as to him its just a word, but real fairness, where people are rewarded for what they do and achieve and get stuffed when they don’t. To achieve this we need industry, not a government like this and previous Tory Government who destroy industry. Britain can not compete with China or India in cheap mass produced goods, but could hold our own with High end quality goods as we used to.

This country is going to the dogs but for the bastards who are sending us there will not be effected on iota, as they have their mansions out in the country and the wherewithal to buy just about anything they desire. They like their supporters do not care for Mr or Mrs average, they only care for themselves.

If it was not for the iran war, and the Global Credit Crunch, Labour would have had another term in office, of that I have no doubt. Had we have had a Tory Government, we still would have gone to War against Saddam Hussein, and the Credit Crunch would have hit us no matter who was in power, what did matter was how it was dealt with, and George Brown and Alastair Darling acted brilliantly, so much so, that Obama addopted their idea's and are now enjoying growth with lowering unemployement, so who was right.

""What Tony Blair achieved was to take the then unelectable Labour party to new grounds in his third way. Previously we had Labour looking after the workers to the determent of business and the Tories looking after the rich and powerful, as they still are and remain unchanged""

Tony Balir's "third way", was to embrace Margaret Thatcher's deregulated free market, whilst introducing means tested Tax Credits for workers, and means teste Pensions Credits fror the elderly.

Infact as a former "traditional" Labour party supporter, member, and activist, there is no doubt in my mind that Blair and Brown wasted their 13 years in office and on a thumping great mandate from the British people, by sticking to, what the country thought they had got rid of. Thatcherism.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:18 pm

Infact as a former "traditional" Labour party supporter, member, and activist, there is no doubt in my mind that Blair and Brown wasted their 13 years in office and on a thumping great mandate from the British people, by sticking to, what the country thought they had got rid of. Thatcherism.

But what of Blair's 3rd way? Was these not appeasing both sides of the coin?
Allowing the private sector to flourish, while introducing measures like the minimum wage and more equal pay for public sector workers....surely that was a good thing

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivan on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:41 pm

I think the original version of Blair's 'third way' (it veered more to the right as time went on) was classic social democracy, which accepts a capitalist economy but demands a strong state to moderate its failures and excesses.

Social democracy uses the state for two central purposes - to correct capitalism’s operational failures, where capitalism wastes wealth instead of producing it, and to spread around the wealth because of the great inequality that unfettered capitalism produces. That is in essence the predominant way of doing things in most European countries. Sadly, the Tories are determined to align us to the neo-conservative model so loved by right-wing crackpots in the USA - and which leaves about half of the population in poverty.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by witchfinder on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:17 pm

The way I see Social Democracy is as a method and style of good governence based on common sense, and it has little to do with doctirine or political dogma.

For example - even many Conservative supporters will agree and admit that privatising public transport is not common sense, it was a bad move, and it was the wrong move by John Majors government; The railways are best off been state run.

On the other hand there are industries involved in manufacturing and producing goods which should never have been nationalised, the car industry been a good example.

The third way basicly means that some things are best off been run by the state, on behalf of the tax payer for the benefit of the public, the National Health Service been a good example - why should anyone make a profit from basic healthcare ?; The third way also accepts that some things are better off been owned and run by private enterprise.

In a Social Democracy no one would argue that taking employment rights away from employees would create more jobs, but this is exactly what the Conservatives ARE saying, backed by the Taxpayers Alliance, and some idiots believe all this clap-trap.

In a Social Democracy the water supply industry would never be a profit making company, it would be a public service that does not make money.
I guess that in essence a Social Democracy does not put either private companies or state funded services BEFORE people, people come first.


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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:43 pm

What a lot of words, just to say what we all know.

The Tories don't like the Common Man.

Except on Polling Day.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:51 pm

oftenwrong wrote:What a lot of words, just to say what we all know.

The Tories don't like the Common Man.

Except on Polling Day.

Well that is not going work this time because come April people will be hopping mad when the cuts to family tax credits and other things come in, by next month his name will be mud( what I really mean is the brown stuff) after this the Common man will not like the Tories so the feelings will be MUTUAL.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:11 pm

In a Social Democracy the water supply industry would never be a profit making company, it would be a public service that does not make money

Witchy....History has shown us that Public run companies that dont make a profit lack the investment needed to re-invest in upgrading, growth or modernisation. Many public utility and Transport companies were serioulsly under-funded and inadequate through both Labour and Tory governments

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:52 pm

Don't you find it strange that private utilities are able to make a profit for their shareholders yet not while they were in the public sector.

It's all a matter of management and working practises, goodwill of the workers, often sadly lacking.

With investment and the above, those utilities could now be producing profits for the public sector. It was shortsightedness and a cop-out by whatever Government was in power at the time. The money their sales produced was wasted in general expenses, as, I believe was much off the North Sea Oil income. We've wasted billions on 'useless' wars, on Millenium Domes and some would say the Olympics. I await judgement on that when I see what this government, and future governments, do with the infrastructure living quarters and the site itself. This is public property and should be used for the people, the workers, the REAL people. Any profit should be ploughed back into the country. By profit I mean the assets - buildings etc.

But then, what do I know.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

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