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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by blueturando on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do Labour go hunting for the electorate who voted Blair into power 3 times and risk the wrath of the Unions, or side with the core Labour party supporters and the Unions at a risk of being unable to get back the voters who deserted them in the last election?
 
The scale of the rift between Labour and the unions over Ed Miliband's decision to embrace austerity measures has been made clear as a senior leader warned of long-term implications over the "most serious mistake" the party could have made.
Unions affiliated to Labour have been fuming since shadow chancellor Ed Balls told a conference at the weekend that he would not reverse the Government's planned 1% public sector pay cap, which affects millions of workers.
Unite leader Len McCluskey warned that Mr Miliband was setting Labour on course for electoral "disaster" and undermining his own leadership by accepting Government cuts and the cap on public sector pay.
Mr Miliband hit back against his union critics, insisting that Mr McCluskey was "wrong" to attack his decision to embrace austerity measures.
It has emerged that the leader of the GMB has written to the union's senior officials saying that the speech by Ed Balls may have a "profound impact" on its relationship with the Labour Party.
General secretary Paul Kenny said in the message: "I have spoken to Ed Milliband and Ed Balls to ensure they were aware of how wrong I think the policy they are now following is. It is now time for careful consideration and thought before the wider discussions begin on the long-term implications this new stance by the party has on GMB affiliation.
"It will be a fundamental requirement that the CEC (executive) and Congress determine our way forward after proper debate. I will update everyone as events unfold but I have to say this is the most serious mistake they could have made and the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee." The GMB declined to comment on the message but confirmed it had been sent.
Mr McCluskey said in an article in The Guardian: "Ed Balls' sudden weekend embrace of austerity and the Government's public sector pay squeeze represents a victory for discredited Blairism at the expense of the party's core supporters. It also challenges the whole course Ed Miliband has set for the party, and perhaps his leadership itself."
Mr Miliband responded in a statement: "Len McCluskey is entitled to his views but he is wrong. I am changing the Labour Party so we can deliver fairness even when there is less money around and that requires tough decisions."

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:52 pm

Don't you find it strange that private utilities are able to make a profit for their shareholders yet not while they were in the public sector.

It's all a matter of management and working practises, goodwill of the workers, often sadly lacking.

With investment and the above, those utilities could now be producing profits for the public sector. It was shortsightedness and a cop-out by whatever Government was in power at the time. The money their sales produced was wasted in general expenses, as, I believe was much off the North Sea Oil income. We've wasted billions on 'useless' wars, on Millenium Domes and some would say the Olympics. I await judgement on that when I see what this government, and future governments, do with the infrastructure living quarters and the site itself. This is public property and should be used for the people, the workers, the REAL people. Any profit should be ploughed back into the country. By profit I mean the assets - buildings etc.

But then, what do I know.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:58 pm

" But then, what do I know"

You pose that question quite regularly , Trevor.

A chap ought to know what he knows. I know what I know - and it wouldn't take a great deal of time to tell everyone what it was... Very Happy
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:32 pm

Thing is, even with privatisation, the water companies are leaking just about as much water as they were before privitisation!

Under investment, and still inadequate!

As long as the shareholders get their cut!
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:44 pm

"..As long as the shareholders get their cut!"

Which they will - Come Hell or no water.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by witchfinder on Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:34 pm

Think about it !

For years the water companies have continued to put up water charges by more than the rate of inflation.

The shareholders make money, the bosses get lots of perks, fat pay packets and we the general public otherwise known as "mugs" have no choice, the water industry is a monopoly.

We get to the year 2012 - 23 years after privatisation, and there is still no national water grid, no strategic planning, profit before public service, and droughts and hosepipe bans for some.

In the first 9 years after privatisation tariffs rose in real terms by 46%

In the last 8 years operating profits have risen by 142%

This year as the government forces the hand of local councils to freeze council tax, Yorkshire Water are increasing charges by a staggering 8%, well above inflation, yet no government minister bats an eyelid.

In the case of water, profit IS a dirty word
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:59 pm

.... on top of all which, the English language manages to pronounce "drought" and "draught" in completely different ways!
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:" But then, what do I know"

You pose that question quite regularly , Trevor.

A chap ought to know what he knows. I know what I know - and it wouldn't take a great deal of time to tell everyone what it was... Very Happy

I know what I know, but can never remember what it is I know I know, or if I only thought I knew it. It gets really confusing at times - at times - at times. Er, now what was I saying:elephant:

But then, what do I know, eh?Sad
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:44 am

I know that I don't know what you know you know.

Know what I mean...?

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:49 am

by Phil Hornby Today at 10:44 am



I know that I don't know what you know you know.

Know what I mean...?

YES. ER - Who are you;)

Now garden calls.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:52 pm

oftenwrong wrote:What a lot of words, just to say what we all know.

The Tories don't like the Common Man.

Except on Polling Day.

Well I hope that the next GE the common man remembers how the Tory party views him as a PLEB.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:11 am

Blueturando wrote : ....History has shown us that Public run companies that dont make a profit lack the investment needed to re-invest in upgrading, growth or modernisation. Many public utility and Transport companies were serioulsly under-funded and inadequate through both Labour and Tory governments

This is perhaps where some of the problems lay. We need two types of industry, firstly we need high quality manufacturing, in order to create gainful employment and secondly we need Public owned non profit making utilities, to provide the infrastructure from which every thing else relies on. Why do Utility Companies need to earn money for shareholders, whilst the taxpayer is paying a massive annual subsidy for them. Water has been in private hands since 1989 whilst this Country was in the clutches of Margaret Thatcher, it is now 2012 a full 23 years later, and we are still paying a subsidy, the shareholders are still getting their pieces of silver and the water companies still haven’t sorted out our water supply problems. I mean we are not even into spring proper and we are being warned of hosepipe bans, what a glorious phuck up and all to put cash into shareholders pockets.

The same could be said for electricity, Gas and Our once great Transport system (pre Ernest Marples of course).

All of these essential services should be in the public domain and run as services, not cash cows for the rich. If these bastard shareholders want to earn some money, let them invest in private manufacturing industry, which if working correctly will create employment, and make the phuck pig shareholders happy. They should never have been allowed to get their filthy hands on Our, repeat Our Utilities. Since privatisation we have all got less and have had to payer higher bills for it, that with the subsidies we are also paying, makes it an obscenity, and only something the filthy Tories would ever have thought of.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:49 am

blueturando wrote:
In a Social Democracy the water supply industry would never be a profit making company, it would be a public service that does not make money

Witchy....History has shown us that Public run companies that dont make a profit lack the investment needed to re-invest in upgrading, growth or modernisation. Many public utility and Transport companies were serioulsly under-funded and inadequate through both Labour and Tory governments
Thing is, even with privatisation, the water companies are leaking just about as much water as they were before privitisation!

Under investment, and still inadequate!

As long as the shareholders get their cut!

The water industry has been privatized for years and it still does not have the investment you talk about so there is no difference between private or public blue or is it the greedy private sector at work again.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 am

""Blueturando wrote : ....History has shown us that Public run companies that dont make a profit lack the investment needed to re-invest in upgrading, growth or modernisation. Many public utility and Transport companies were serioulsly under-funded and inadequate through both Labour and Tory governments""

Try telling that to the European's particularly France and Germany. Both countries heavily invest and subsidise care of the GNP, both countries have a working population that pay higher income tax than us, and despite what's happening in the EU now, their populas remain my better of GDP wise, than us Brit's.

Infact the EU lead the world in Social and economic democracy, and policy.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:27 am

Ivanhoe wrote:""Blueturando wrote : ....History has shown us that Public run companies that dont make a profit lack the investment needed to re-invest in upgrading, growth or modernisation. Many public utility and Transport companies were serioulsly under-funded and inadequate through both Labour and Tory governments""

Try telling that to the European's particularly France and Germany. Both countries heavily invest and subsidise care of the GNP, both countries have a working population that pay higher income tax than us, and despite what's happening in the EU now, their populas remain my better of GDP wise, than us Brit's.

Infact the EU lead the world in Social and economic democracy, and policy.


Its typical Tory Ideology Public bad Private good, but the truth is the private sector are just as bad or worse they will not invest some of the profits to modernize the bought over public utilities, but again they put profit before EVERYTHING so why not NATIONALIZE them.


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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:42 am

Redflag wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:""Blueturando wrote : ....History has shown us that Public run companies that dont make a profit lack the investment needed to re-invest in upgrading, growth or modernisation. Many public utility and Transport companies were serioulsly under-funded and inadequate through both Labour and Tory governments""

Try telling that to the European's particularly France and Germany. Both countries heavily invest and subsidise care of the GNP, both countries have a working population that pay higher income tax than us, and despite what's happening in the EU now, their populas remain my better of GDP wise, than us Brit's.

Infact the EU lead the world in Social and economic democracy, and policy.


Its typical Tory Ideology Public bad Private good, but the truth is the private sector are just as bad or worse they will not invest some of the profits to modernize the bought over public utilities, but again they put profit before EVERYTHING so why not NATIONALIZE them.





Redflag, Nationalisation creates real jobs, privatisation lays people off. The Tories dont want people in real long term jobs, because for among other idiological reasons, unemployment is used as an inflationary tool.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:37 pm

Ivanhoe. As a matter of interest, do you think, or would you prefer all business was Nationalised.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:53 pm

bobby wrote:Ivanhoe. As a matter of interest, do you think, or would you prefer all business was Nationalised.

bobby, We need to return an Industrial, and manufacturing base to Britain so people can have real and sustainable jobs with a decent minimum wage. This way people can indeed stand on their own two feet without being means tested for demeaning Tax Credits. Housing Benefit etc'. The means test is a trap that the old and the poor, the truly sick, and people who do not have a home of their own should be protected against.

We need to produce again, and we need to continue and strengthen our ties and our trade with Europe.

We need to remove as many reasons as we can for the British working man and woman to strike. Fairness must be the order of the day, which means consolidation all round between manufacturing, business, workers, and Unions.

We need to adopt Europe's full Social Charter as a legalised framework preventing workers exploitation in Britain.









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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:00 pm

We're all paying for Europe's gift to our aristocrats and utility companies


Dukes, water companies and wildlife charities will be relieved to know their plunder of farm subsidies under the common agricultural policy can last until at least 2020






  • [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



    • George Monbiot
    • guardian.co.uk, Monday 28 November 2011 20.30 GMT
    • Article history






[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Illustration by Daniel Pudles

What would you do with £245? Would you: a) use it to buy food for the next five weeks; b) put it towards a family holiday; c) use it to double your annual savings; or d) give it to the Duke of Westminster?

Let me make the case for option D. This year the duke was plunged into relative poverty. Relative, that is, to the three parvenus who have displaced him from the top of the UK rich list. (Admittedly he's not so badly off in absolute terms: the value of his properties rose last year, to £7bn.) He's the highest ranked of the British-born people on the list, and we surely have a patriotic duty to keep him there. And he's a splendid example of British enterprise, being enterprising enough to have inherited his land and income from his father.

I'm talking about the payments we make to Big Farmer through the common agricultural policy. They swallow €55bn (£47bn) a year, or 43% of the European budget.




But it's the true captains of British enterprise – the aristocrats and the utility companies, equally deserving of their good fortune – who really clean up. The Duke of Devonshire gets £390,000, the Duke of Buccleuch £405,000, the Earl of Plymouth £560,000, the Earl of Moray £770,000, the Duke of Westminster £820,000. The Vestey family takes £1.2m. You'll be pleased to hear that the previous owner of their Thurlow estate – Edmund Vestey, who died in 2008 – managed his tax affairs so efficiently that in one year his businesses paid just £10. Asked to comment on his contribution to the public good, he explained: "We're all tax dodgers, aren't we?"

British households, who try so hard to keep the water companies in the style to which they're accustomed, have been blessed with another means of supporting this deserving cause. Yorkshire Water takes £290,000 in farm subsidies, Welsh Water £330,000, Severn Trent £650,000, United Utilities £1.3m. Serco, one of the largest recipients of another form of corporate welfare – the private finance initiative – gets a further £2m for owning farmland.



If subsidies have any remaining purpose it is surely to protect the smallest, most vulnerable farmers.
In the midst of economic crisis, European governments intend to keep the ultra-rich in vintage port and racehorses at least until 2020.


A fully referenced version of this article can be found at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]















You may have seen this late last year. If not 'enjoy.'

As to blaming the lack of rain. If Labour had agreed to pay the Indian rain dancers a bonus it wouldn't have happened.

It's not our lack of resources but the use of what we have that's important. I understand that it is possible to move water from area to area now.
Perhaps with a little forethought we could spend £40b on a new 'hosepipe' instead of a highspeed train.
Which is more urgent. Do we want sweaty/smelly bodies on a high speed link. Or cool, refreshed bodies in sardine cans called commutor trains. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Perhaps the Duke of Westminster would dip his hand into his pocket. On second thoughts, perhaps not.

But then, what do I know?


Last edited by trevorw2539 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:11 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Copyright)
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astradt1 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:36 pm

trevor. Please edit your George Monbiot article down to no more than 14 or 15 lines, since as it stands it constitutes a serious breach of copyright. Thanks, astradt1
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by bobby on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:46 pm

Trevor. Some time back I can’t remember exactly when, but a plan was drawn up to use Britain’s extensive canal systems to move vast amounts of water. No new technology would be needed and comparatively very little in the way of plumbing. The canal systems are already in place. I could see this happening with a National Water Board, but I doubt it will ever be done whilst in Private hands, well not unless the Taxpayers pay for it. Lets face it the shareholders don’t want to invest their cash, when they can and do get us to pay for everything.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:53 pm

astradt1 wrote:trevor. Please edit your George Monbiot article down to no more than 14 or 15 lines, since as it stands it constitutes a serious breach of copyright. Thanks, astradt1



Noted.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:13 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
astradt1 wrote:trevor. Please edit your George Monbiot article down to no more than 14 or 15 lines, since as it stands it constitutes a serious breach of copyright. Thanks, astradt1



Noted.



OK?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astradt1 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:28 pm

Thank you........
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:09 pm

There won't be much of Britain to salvage, by the time the Tory-led Coalition of buccaneers have filled their pockets and those of their friends.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:38 pm

Astradt1.

I'd better not quote/display from the Bible, Qu'ran or Karma Sutra then;) Ooops
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:45 pm

Trevor, I would have thought the Kama Sutra would be OK to copy!

No one still alive who wrote it

VERY FEW still alive who tried it's instruction!
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:05 pm

astra wrote:Trevor, I would have thought the Kama Sutra would be OK to copy!

No one still alive who wrote it

VERY FEW still alive who tried it's instruction!

Erm. Excluding 'God' is there anyone alive who wrote the Bible/Qu'ran. Smile At least, not till resurrection day.bounce

Am I only one of the 'very few' left. Sad

And I certainly wouldn't copy from the Karma Sutra on here. I wouldn't dare corrupt your, or other, innocent minds on here.Shocked
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:09 pm

What the hell are you people writing, in response to a perfectly good posting ?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:13 pm

Consider yourselves told off...! Shocked
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:16 pm

Trying to find and salvage wot the torys have not yet got round to selling off!


Old books in the cupboard will be all that's left! Families are moaning that when the new child benefit comes in, they will be £4,000 a year worse off.

NEWS!

~Since 2008 AD, I have been OVER £4000 a year worse off, like many people on pension (but not yet a "Pensioner")
And if we digress, it is to get away from the suicidal thoughts that I am going to send to Gideon on Wednesday! (It is , sadly, to be noted that the similar instructions I sent to Broon and Darling did not work either!
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 pm

Who knows if Ed will be leader in 3 years.



Someone has already posted this and I agree. Make it quite clear that where possible all contracts with the private sector made by this government will be carefully scrutinised for its benefits to the country, and the needy in particular, and possibly scrapped.

We can all make suggestions but the whole crux of the matter is this. What will it be POSSIBLE to do given the situation at the time.

Industry? Support what industry we have. No more Bombardier.

New industries? That takes time and money, and the need for the product. Most products we have we import more cheaply than we can produce. Apart from an embargo on cheap imports, which will produce reaction, the only thing is really modern methods. That means less labour. Still some is better than none.

Our best bet is to 'encourage' Industries into the country. While they are not ours, they produce tax and employment.

The much despised financial sector contributes a good deal to our welfare. I don't know the figures for last year, and I seriously can't be bothered to Google tonight. Stox will know.We need to defend this from attack by Europe.

One thing the Tories have found out. If you haven't the money, you can't do it.

Lets qualify that. The Tory's policy is to let someone else do it, at a price. A price that the public will have to pay in the long run.

I have no answer to the bankers bonuses. We look at the enormous sums paid out to the top men of the Banks, and that is abhorrent to many of us who are struggling to make ends meet. Let us remember, however, that there are those in middle management, and lower down, who are actually making profits for the banks in their 'areas'. Should they not receive what everyone else would expect. The amount is the only question.

Many ordinary employees get bonuses, called staff discount.

Undoubtedly the rich can afford to pay more. The problem is to keep entrepeneurs here. A local man has already asked why he should stay here on 50% tax when across the North Sea it's 25%.

So many call centres, factories etc have moved out. We need to bring them home, or stop them going. Don't ask me how.

As you can see from the above I'm not an economist, but replying to Ivanhoe's indignant posting:lol:

But then, what do I know.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:29 am

Trying to find and salvage wot the torys have not yet got round to selling off
!


ROADS TODAY


What tommorrow!

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:13 pm

The British Isles have not been invaded since 1066, but our European friends will have clear memories of losing all independence during the late 1930s and early 1940s. An army they wouold not have chosen appointed governments they had not elected, and the penalty for opposition was death.

It's not quite that dramatic in 2012 Britain, but it's nevertheless difficult to escape the sensation that we have been captured by invaders who do not share our beliefs. The Tory Horde, like Genghis Khan, have determined to stamp their will on the British People. Our treasured possessions are being hived off to the highest bidder.

When will the British People call HALT?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:45 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The British Isles have not been invaded since 1066, but our European friends will have clear memories of losing all independence during the late 1930s and early 1940s. An army they wouold not have chosen appointed governments they had not elected, and the penalty for opposition was death.

It's not quite that dramatic in 2012 Britain, but it's nevertheless difficult to escape the sensation that we have been captured by invaders who do not share our beliefs. The Tory Horde, like Genghis Khan, have determined to stamp their will on the British People. Our treasured possessions are being hived off to the highest bidder.

When will the British People call HALT?

Never. We are all terribly middle class now, only interested in number 1. We have no cultural outlook, just self interest.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:49 pm

We hang on in the hope of a Lottery Win, or at least a tax rebate.

Both of which are effectively our money anyway.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:00 pm

Premium Bonds OW, don't forget the Premium Bonds!!


OH my rhumatics!!
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:04 pm

Re: What needs to happen in Britain under Ed Miliband - but will it?

Ah wishful thinking in the extreme, when your told to think outside of the box I'm sure they don't mean out of your mind as well.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by astra on Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:20 pm

Thinking outside the box is OK!

It is those "Thought showers" that have me most worried!! Cool
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:40 am

astra wrote:
Trying to find and salvage wot the torys have not yet got round to selling off
!


ROADS TODAY


What tommorrow!


Maybe us astra if we stand still for too long?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by tlttf on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:00 pm

and in some cases not a moment too soon.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

Post by Redflag on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:26 pm

tlttf wrote:Re: What needs to happen in Britain under Ed Miliband - but will it?

Ah wishful thinking in the extreme, when your told to think outside of the box I'm sure they don't mean out of your mind as well.

Yes it will thanks to the Tories and the L/Ds, after Aprils cuts to family tax credits and when the full force of there privatization of the NHS yes it will happen and not without the Tories MPs suffering at the hands of the people that voted them in at the last G.E.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 1)

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