Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Abolish the House of Lords? What would we do with all those ennobled ex-Ministers upon whose wisdom we ( and the HoC) so rely?

Besides, how would the likes of Lord Hanningfield make a living, were the Expenses Club to so cruelly close...?

It's not ping-pong. In between their Lordships' rejection of a Bill and its subsequent return for their further consideration, it will have been substantially amended by the authors in the Commons, to take account of the objections which had been raised "in the other place".

Lansley's first version of the Health Bill already looks like a lace doily.

oftenwrong wrote:It's not ping-pong. In between their Lordships' rejection of a Bill and its subsequent return for their further consideration, it will have been substantially amended by the authors in the Commons, to take account of the objections which had been raised "in the other place".

Lansley's first version of the Health Bill already looks like a lace doily.

Agreed. Let's hope the moths get in and 'eat' the rest of the Bill.

Unfortunately some of the processes are already being put in place. There are several interesting articles on 'Is it too late to stop the NHS Bill' - Google, if you are interested

As one senior union official said in January "Yes we could scrap the bill, perhaps curb the involvement of the private sector, but what would we do with all the things that are already in place? We would have to have a long think about that."

There is a wonderful word in Hebrew. "Chutzpah".

An example of chutzpah is where a boy on trial for murdering his parents, pleads for leniency on the grounds that he's an Orphan.

Lansley has chutzpah in spades - he has set about dismantling the Primary Care Trusts without waiting for the tedious process of making it legal to do so, and begun GP funding with no authority whatsoever.

Next time you hear any Tories fawning over royalty and urging us to have a 'Big Lunch' to celebrate 60 years of benefit scrounging, just remember how they've held Mrs Windsor in contempt by implementing the NHS Bill before it's received the royal assent.

Ivan wrote:Next time you hear any Tories fawning over royalty and urging us to have a 'Big Lunch' to celebrate 60 years of benefit scrounging, just remember how they've held Mrs Windsor in contempt by implementing the NHS Bill before it's received the royal assent.

Nothing the Tories do supprises me since they came into power they have made the moves to implement the NHS changes, Do you think Ivan it will be stopped or will the Tories and the Lib/Dems have the POLL TAX tied to them a TOXIC bomb.

Herr Cameron is only too pleased for Lansley to push through as Tory Led Coalitions ideological agenda as quickly as possible. I mean lets face it, if it all goes ahead without much problem, Herr Cameron will jump up and down saying what a good prime minister he is, and when it all goes tits up, he has his arsewipe Landsley to blame its failure on. Due to his proven ability to deceive he will not accept the responsibility for anything despite how many times he tells us otherwise. He is a cheat, a Liar and has totally discredited the position of Prime Minister. We know Obama thinks of him as a political lightweight, and we have no doubt as to what Merkell and Sarkosy think of him, I can not see any other politician admiring him except the weak and foolish Tory’s, and for a short while Cleggy.

If anything comes of the wedge you speak of, its too little too late, all the Lib-Dems even those who may now be rocking the boat, have supported Her Cameron to the hilt, why now and not 18 months ago.

bobby wrote:Herr Cameron is only too pleased for Lansley to push through as Tory Led Coalitions ideological agenda as quickly as possible. I mean lets face it, if it all goes ahead without much problem, Herr Cameron will jump up and down saying what a good prime minister he is, and when it all goes tits up, he has his arsewipe Landsley to blame its failure on. Due to his proven ability to deceive he will not accept the responsibility for anything despite how many times he tells us otherwise. He is a cheat, a Liar and has totally discredited the position of Prime Minister. We know Obama thinks of him as a political lightweight, and we have no doubt as to what Merkell and Sarkosy think of him, I can not see any other politician admiring him except the weak and foolish Tory’s, and for a short while Cleggy.

If anything comes of the wedge you speak of, its too little too late, all the Lib-Dems even those who may now be rocking the boat, have supported Her Cameron to the hilt, why now and not 18 months ago.

Today Caroline Lucas (green party) stood up in the H.O.C and rattled of a list of Private Health Care providers that have contracts for the NHS, and yet Landsley still denies that he and Scam..er..on are trying to privatize the NHS.

They know they HAVE to do it now. There won't be a second chance.

So the Lib/Dem’s seek to reform the House of Lords while the extreme right of the Tory party wish to reform there relationship with the Lib/Dems but this is not a split within the Government we are told. So we find ourselves with both coalition parties both threatening each other over what they plan too do to each other if they stop each other getting what they want . Its has sort of left me with the feeling of two men and only one white horse.

I have had my radio on this evening and been listening to Mps from both sides attacking each other like some sort of enthusiastic amateur zoologist trying to point out individuals in a troop of marmosets. With both sets of marmosets claiming that the other troop of marmosets are disfiguring there fractured relationship over key areas of coalition policy. What struck me though all of this was that all the allegations and threats to each other sounded more like an argument between two losers.

Yet when anyone on the left says anything about there relationship within the coalition government they are shot down at once by both Lib/Dem’s and Tories who claim at once that this is just them having a friendly and healthy debate between them both. But if a Trade Union leader says anything about the Labour party they both jump up and down while calling this a split and shows that the Labour party is not fit for the office of government.

Well I know that I am only a lowly left winger and that all right wingers think we are stupid on everything and do not understand such things as economics or healthy and friendly debates or anything else for that matter. So given there so-called superior Right wing intellect over all people on the left. Maybe they would be so very kind to us on the left And explain the following point?

The Question to the right wing and what is there dictionary definition of the word ‘’Split’’ mean? as I do fully understand that Right wing dictionaries and economic fact are very different to our lowly left wing dictionaries like collin’s or Roget’s thesaurus or the OBR economic facts or figures. ( I bet these dictionaries and the OBR have been taken over by a left wing groups you know? As everything is a left wing conspiracy, just too up set Cameron and Gideon)

How come when the Lib/Dem’s and extreme right wing threaten each other its not a split but friendly debate between them? But when a trade Union leader says anything about the Labour party this is a split and shows there not fit to hold office?

Tales of a split in the coalition may only be a smokescreen intended to divert attention away from a Statement to be issued by Andrew Lansley this week that no funds are to be made available for "capping" an individual's liability for nursing care in old age. This is despite accepting the Dilnott Report that recommended it.

See, this is what I thought would happen from the beginning - two very different parties trying to work together, but disagreeing fundamentally. However, somehow, they always get through it.

All the Westminster parties are coalitions within coalitions. Does anyone seriously believe that, say, John McDonnell has the same view on what the Labour Party should stand for as, say, Andy Burnham? Or David Davis as Eric Pickles and John Redwood? Or Charlie Kennedy or Vince Cable with Danny Alexander?

There's nothing wrong with parties disagreeing among themselves and there's nothing wrong with coalitions disagreeing between themselves either.

It works well in most other countries but for some obscure reason the forces of repression (on both left and right and 'stuck in the middle with you' as well) don't seem to think that us Brits have got the political maturity to make it work.

Well, they think if they patronise us long enough we'll end up thinking they know what's best for us!

The problem with the LibDems is that they have temporarily forgotten that their sole purpose in the Coalition is to ensure that the Tories carry the votes to push through ( or prevent) any old thing they wish to achieve, despite having no overall mandate from the country . What a cheek that they should have any views of their own and how dare a mere Butler like Clegg create any inconvenience for his noble Master, that nice Mr Cameron.

Meanwhile the Labour Party can have a whole load of fun by seeking to take every opportunity to make as much mischief as possible for both of the other parties - just like, in fact, the Tories did when Brown was in any form of difficulty in the previous Parliament. What a wizard wheeze -and how good such revenge must taste !

None of this is any good for the salus populi , of course, but anything which provides discomfort for the arrogant Cameron and his Band of Beastly Bastards can't be all bad.......

Having experienced the way that his Tory "allies" first briefed against his bid for electoral reform and then firmly voted negatively, Clegg must surely have a good idea what comes next in his pet scheme for Lords' Reform.

Ed Miliband must be tempted to abstain altogether and let the Coalition tear itself very visibly to pieces.

Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

17.00 Tuesday: All bets are off on the "guillotine" motion UFN.

Who blinked first?

Cameron had to be seen to be giving his best friend Glegg an opportunity to get the reform of The House Of Lords through Parliament.

I recon they BOTH were fully aware of the FACT that a majority of back Tory benchers would vote against the reforms when the time came.
All done between the two of them, Cameron prepared to suffer a defeat which is nothing compared with having blue Glegg alongside backing every Tory move, with Glegg being seen to be apeasing his own party members.

IMO both utter con men.

Rank amateurs. Tony Blair would have swung this past his "sofa cabinet" IN FIFTEEN MINUTES without ever needing to trouble the Commons to vote on it.

Have you noticed that some senior Tories are blaming Labour for this?

Again it's not this Tory Governments fault.............

........ but if it should turn out to be the Tory Government's fault, then they will simply execute a U-turn and everyone will live happily everafter.

All political parties are coalitions; does John McDonnell belong to the same party as Andy Burnham?

It's inevitable that when (as we've got now) a broadly centre-left party has gone into a coalition with a broadly centre-right one that differences and tensions will get worse.

On the House of Lords issue I'm not that worked up about it either way. I'm basically more on the Lib Dems' side but it doesn't break me up and IMO it's not a good enough reason to break up the coalition.

oftenwrong wrote:Having experienced the way that his Tory "allies" first briefed against his bid for electoral reform and then firmly voted negatively, Clegg must surely have a good idea what comes next in his pet scheme for Lords' Reform.

Ed Miliband must be tempted to abstain altogether and let the Coalition tear itself very visibly to pieces.

That is a great idea OW, only thing is I would like to be a fly on the wall while they are tearing each other apart, so I do hope that Ed abstains then stands back and watch the fun it could be a real hard lesson for Clegg to learn. He thinks he is OK clegg thinks if Labour gets in at the next GE he will form a coalition with the L/Ds if its needed maybe Labour will but Clegg will not be leader of the L/Ds because he is tainted by association so maybe VC will be leader, I would like to see Ed do to him what he did to Gordon Brown.

astradt1 wrote:Have you noticed that some senior Tories are blaming Labour for this?

Again it's not this Tory Governments fault.............

Nothing new then astradt1, what a bunch of jokers they are.

blueturando wrote:Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

God please phone them up and ask him to do that Blue.

blueturando wrote:Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

Oh blue I hope you have hit the nail on the head on this one, to be able to sit up all night to watch the GE results and see the UK turn RED would be a dream come true for me.

Redflag wrote:

blueturando wrote:Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

Oh blue I hope you have hit the nail on the head on this one, to be able to sit up all night to watch the GE results and see the UK turn RED would be a dream come true for me.

yep party time Red.... lets hope Blue boy can speed it up for us.?

Mel wrote:Cameron had to be seen to be giving his best friend Glegg an opportunity to get the reform of The House Of Lords through Parliament.

I recon they BOTH were fully aware of the FACT that a majority of back Tory benchers would vote against the reforms when the time came.
All done between the two of them, Cameron prepared to suffer a defeat which is nothing compared with having blue Glegg alongside backing every Tory move, with Glegg being seen to be apeasing his own party members.

IMO both utter con men.

When you go back to the run-up to the 2010 May GE, and remember what they both promised while trying to get us to vote for them and to be honest I hope the Tory back benchers do rebel and the fcuking Lords reform Bill is scuppered.

Redflag wrote:

Mel wrote:Cameron had to be seen to be giving his best friend Glegg an opportunity to get the reform of The House Of Lords through Parliament.

I recon they BOTH were fully aware of the FACT that a majority of back Tory benchers would vote against the reforms when the time came.
All done between the two of them, Cameron prepared to suffer a defeat which is nothing compared with having blue Glegg alongside backing every Tory move, with Glegg being seen to be apeasing his own party members.

IMO both utter con men.

When you go back to the run-up to the 2010 May GE, and remember what they both promised while trying to get us to vote for them and to be honest I hope the Tory back benchers do rebel and the fcuking Lords reform Bill is scuppered.

I can agree to a point with you Red. but I would like to also clean out the Tory party deadwood in the Lords too. A catch 22 for us

The House of Lords is meant to be an apolitical body. Reform will mean they wont be.

It's that simple.

Are most on here of the opinion that Clegg is actually a Tory in disguise?

Are most on here of the opinion that Clegg is actually a Tory in disguise?

I no longer think he is trying to disguise anything anymore, He is a piggin Tory.

How sad.

Blamhappy wrote:Are most on here of the opinion that Clegg is actually a Tory in disguise?

As a traditional" Labour supporter and activist, there is a part of me that actually feels sorry for Nick Clegg, because he was forced to support the Tory's because her majesty wanted stable Government.

“What better time to bury bad news – and a coalition?”

Extracts from an article by Mark Ferguson:-

Yesterday evening Cameron slipped his first bit of bad news under the wire. Osborne will remain Chancellor until at least the next election. The man who has done this to the economy will be encouraged to do more damage. The pyromaniac has run out of matches, so Dave hands him a flamethrower to finish the job. Awful news for everyone in the country with two exceptions. Osborne of course, who still has a career (for now), and Ed Balls, who would have been bereft without his favourite Tory chew toy.

Evidently noting that Osborne’s stay of execution had barely rippled the pond of the British consciousness ……Cameron took his chance to squeeze out another golden nugget of bad news. Lords reform, it seems, is dead. After tuition fees, the shambolic budgets, control orders and NHS “reform” all made their way past Clegg and co, I had begun to believe that they’ll swallow anything. But surely not even this passive bunch will swallow this?

If the Lib Dems follow their AV humiliation with failure to reform the Lords, what will they have got out of this coalition exactly? Effectively nothing (unless they kill the boundary review). And even then, is that really an achievement for 5 years in government, stopping one bit of legislation but losing out on your party’s raison d’etre – democratic reform?

Cameron might just have picked the middle of the Olympics as the time to collapse the coalition government.

http://labourlist.org/2012/08/a-good-day-to-bury-bad-news-and-a-coalition/

The newspapers are now moving firmly into their "silly season", with Parliament in recess, so nothing of importance will emerge from Westminster for at least a month. Then September will bring the Party Conferences which always entertain us, and the internal combustion taking place within the Coalition may become more apparent.

Well from what I just read in The New Statesman on line is correct Then thats it lords reform is dead. So what benefit is there of Lib dems being in government as both their pet projects (the hidous compromise of AV & lords) have been defeated. Other than preserving the party for a few more months of course. Personally I hope the parliamentary lib dems stage a coup d'etat and depose clegg, come to their senses and leave the government. Let the mad rabid tory right run as a minority and unite in a "rainbow" coalition of the broad centre left to bring them down. Hopefully (well we can but live in hope) this will pull the Labour party back in the right direction ie Left away from the toxic tory brand and its diet version in the progress sect of blairism.