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Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

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What's the point of the House of Lords?

Post by Papaumau on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:40 pm


Recently the present government have had six of their policies defeated in the upper house and yet all that happens is that any defeated Bill is brought back to the commons and still forced through using the power of the whips and the support of the traitorous Lib Dems.

This makes The Lords into nothing but a place to doze off or an upper-class talking shop. If this is the case then why do we not get rid of it and the expense it causes us all right now ?

Regards....

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:03 pm

Abolish the House of Lords? What would we do with all those ennobled ex-Ministers upon whose wisdom we ( and the HoC) so rely?

Besides, how would the likes of Lord Hanningfield make a living, were the Expenses Club to so cruelly close...? Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:22 pm

It's not ping-pong. In between their Lordships' rejection of a Bill and its subsequent return for their further consideration, it will have been substantially amended by the authors in the Commons, to take account of the objections which had been raised "in the other place".

Lansley's first version of the Health Bill already looks like a lace doily.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:49 pm

oftenwrong wrote:It's not ping-pong. In between their Lordships' rejection of a Bill and its subsequent return for their further consideration, it will have been substantially amended by the authors in the Commons, to take account of the objections which had been raised "in the other place".

Lansley's first version of the Health Bill already looks like a lace doily.

Agreed. Let's hope the moths get in and 'eat' the rest of the Bill.

Unfortunately some of the processes are already being put in place. There are several interesting articles on 'Is it too late to stop the NHS Bill' - Google, if you are interested

As one senior union official said in January "Yes we could scrap the bill, perhaps curb the involvement of the private sector, but what would we do with all the things that are already in place? We would have to have a long think about that."
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:56 pm

There is a wonderful word in Hebrew. "Chutzpah".

An example of chutzpah is where a boy on trial for murdering his parents, pleads for leniency on the grounds that he's an Orphan.

Lansley has chutzpah in spades - he has set about dismantling the Primary Care Trusts without waiting for the tedious process of making it legal to do so, and begun GP funding with no authority whatsoever.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivan on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:59 pm

Next time you hear any Tories fawning over royalty and urging us to have a 'Big Lunch' to celebrate 60 years of benefit scrounging, just remember how they've held Mrs Windsor in contempt by implementing the NHS Bill before it's received the royal assent.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:06 pm

Ivan wrote:Next time you hear any Tories fawning over royalty and urging us to have a 'Big Lunch' to celebrate 60 years of benefit scrounging, just remember how they've held Mrs Windsor in contempt by implementing the NHS Bill before it's received the royal assent.

Nothing the Tories do supprises me since they came into power they have made the moves to implement the NHS changes, Do you think Ivan it will be stopped or will the Tories and the Lib/Dems have the POLL TAX tied to them a TOXIC bomb.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Papaumau on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:18 pm


Yes folks, I too think that the haste that Andrew Lansley has used in starting the nuts-and-bolts processes of this NHS carve-up before it has even been passed into the statute books is a scandal.

Who gives him the right to start processes running that will forever alter our great NHS and turn it into a carbon-copy of health in America before it has even been agreed in our parliament ?

The quicker this bill is put before a final vote in the Commons - AND DEFEATED - the happier I for one will be.

( Oh, and BTW.....As has been reported in the press today: There is a large and powerful group of Liberal Democrat activists that have formulated a proposal to put forward at the Spring Liberal Democrat conference in order to scrap this bill and drive a wedge between the party and the Deputy Prime Minister ).

Regards....

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by bobby on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:50 pm

Herr Cameron is only too pleased for Lansley to push through as Tory Led Coalitions ideological agenda as quickly as possible. I mean lets face it, if it all goes ahead without much problem, Herr Cameron will jump up and down saying what a good prime minister he is, and when it all goes tits up, he has his arsewipe Landsley to blame its failure on. Due to his proven ability to deceive he will not accept the responsibility for anything despite how many times he tells us otherwise. He is a cheat, a Liar and has totally discredited the position of Prime Minister. We know Obama thinks of him as a political lightweight, and we have no doubt as to what Merkell and Sarkosy think of him, I can not see any other politician admiring him except the weak and foolish Tory’s, and for a short while Cleggy.

If anything comes of the wedge you speak of, its too little too late, all the Lib-Dems even those who may now be rocking the boat, have supported Her Cameron to the hilt, why now and not 18 months ago.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:27 pm

bobby wrote:Herr Cameron is only too pleased for Lansley to push through as Tory Led Coalitions ideological agenda as quickly as possible. I mean lets face it, if it all goes ahead without much problem, Herr Cameron will jump up and down saying what a good prime minister he is, and when it all goes tits up, he has his arsewipe Landsley to blame its failure on. Due to his proven ability to deceive he will not accept the responsibility for anything despite how many times he tells us otherwise. He is a cheat, a Liar and has totally discredited the position of Prime Minister. We know Obama thinks of him as a political lightweight, and we have no doubt as to what Merkell and Sarkosy think of him, I can not see any other politician admiring him except the weak and foolish Tory’s, and for a short while Cleggy.

If anything comes of the wedge you speak of, its too little too late, all the Lib-Dems even those who may now be rocking the boat, have supported Her Cameron to the hilt, why now and not 18 months ago.

Today Caroline Lucas (green party) stood up in the H.O.C and rattled of a list of Private Health Care providers that have contracts for the NHS, and yet Landsley still denies that he and Scam..er..on are trying to privatize the NHS.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:13 pm

They know they HAVE to do it now. There won't be a second chance.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Papaumau on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:53 pm


That's exactly the problem here: This is a second chance at the privatisation of the NHS as a "lady" called Margaret Thatcher tried to do this just a few years ago and was bombed out for trying it on.

Cameron and his lickspittle Lib-Dem henchmen are doing it in a slightly different way this time as they are doing it by stealth so that all of the privateers that are going to come in via the back door will do it without making many waves.

The insidious method that is being used this time round, in order to snow-job us and many of the people in the H.O.C. has to be cut off at the knees as once it has started properly it is going to be very difficult to reverse.

I REALLY hope that the activists in the Liberal Democrat Spring conference are able to put enough pressure on Clegg to kill this Bill off ASAP.

Regards.....

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Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:20 am

So the Lib/Dem’s seek to reform the House of Lords while the extreme right of the Tory party wish to reform there relationship with the Lib/Dems but this is not a split within the Government we are told. So we find ourselves with both coalition parties both threatening each other over what they plan too do to each other if they stop each other getting what they want . Its has sort of left me with the feeling of two men and only one white horse.

I have had my radio on this evening and been listening to Mps from both sides attacking each other like some sort of enthusiastic amateur zoologist trying to point out individuals in a troop of marmosets. With both sets of marmosets claiming that the other troop of marmosets are disfiguring there fractured relationship over key areas of coalition policy. What struck me though all of this was that all the allegations and threats to each other sounded more like an argument between two losers.

Yet when anyone on the left says anything about there relationship within the coalition government they are shot down at once by both Lib/Dem’s and Tories who claim at once that this is just them having a friendly and healthy debate between them both. But if a Trade Union leader says anything about the Labour party they both jump up and down while calling this a split and shows that the Labour party is not fit for the office of government.

Well I know that I am only a lowly left winger and that all right wingers think we are stupid on everything and do not understand such things as economics or healthy and friendly debates or anything else for that matter. So given there so-called superior Right wing intellect over all people on the left. Maybe they would be so very kind to us on the left And explain the following point?

The Question to the right wing and what is there dictionary definition of the word ‘’Split’’ mean? as I do fully understand that Right wing dictionaries and economic fact are very different to our lowly left wing dictionaries like collin’s or Roget’s thesaurus or the OBR economic facts or figures. ( I bet these dictionaries and the OBR have been taken over by a left wing groups you know? As everything is a left wing conspiracy, just too up set Cameron and Gideon)

How come when the Lib/Dem’s and extreme right wing threaten each other its not a split but friendly debate between them? But when a trade Union leader says anything about the Labour party this is a split and shows there not fit to hold office?




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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:33 am

Tales of a split in the coalition may only be a smokescreen intended to divert attention away from a Statement to be issued by Andrew Lansley this week that no funds are to be made available for "capping" an individual's liability for nursing care in old age. This is despite accepting the Dilnott Report that recommended it.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Blamhappy on Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:40 am

See, this is what I thought would happen from the beginning - two very different parties trying to work together, but disagreeing fundamentally. However, somehow, they always get through it.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by biglin on Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:54 am

All the Westminster parties are coalitions within coalitions. Does anyone seriously believe that, say, John McDonnell has the same view on what the Labour Party should stand for as, say, Andy Burnham? Or David Davis as Eric Pickles and John Redwood? Or Charlie Kennedy or Vince Cable with Danny Alexander?

There's nothing wrong with parties disagreeing among themselves and there's nothing wrong with coalitions disagreeing between themselves either.

It works well in most other countries but for some obscure reason the forces of repression (on both left and right and 'stuck in the middle with you' as well) don't seem to think that us Brits have got the political maturity to make it work.

Well, they think if they patronise us long enough we'll end up thinking they know what's best for us!


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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:36 am

The problem with the LibDems is that they have temporarily forgotten that their sole purpose in the Coalition is to ensure that the Tories carry the votes to push through ( or prevent) any old thing they wish to achieve, despite having no overall mandate from the country . What a cheek that they should have any views of their own and how dare a mere Butler like Clegg create any inconvenience for his noble Master, that nice Mr Cameron.

Meanwhile the Labour Party can have a whole load of fun by seeking to take every opportunity to make as much mischief as possible for both of the other parties - just like, in fact, the Tories did when Brown was in any form of difficulty in the previous Parliament. What a wizard wheeze -and how good such revenge must taste !

None of this is any good for the salus populi , of course, but anything which provides discomfort for the arrogant Cameron and his Band of Beastly Bastards can't be all bad....... Very Happy
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:49 am

Having experienced the way that his Tory "allies" first briefed against his bid for electoral reform and then firmly voted negatively, Clegg must surely have a good idea what comes next in his pet scheme for Lords' Reform.

Ed Miliband must be tempted to abstain altogether and let the Coalition tear itself very visibly to pieces.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by blueturando on Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:39 pm

Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:03 pm

17.00 Tuesday: All bets are off on the "guillotine" motion UFN.

Who blinked first?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Mel on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:35 pm

Cameron had to be seen to be giving his best friend Glegg an opportunity to get the reform of The House Of Lords through Parliament.

I recon they BOTH were fully aware of the FACT that a majority of back Tory benchers would vote against the reforms when the time came.
All done between the two of them, Cameron prepared to suffer a defeat which is nothing compared with having blue Glegg alongside backing every Tory move, with Glegg being seen to be apeasing his own party members.

IMO both utter con men.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:39 pm

Rank amateurs. Tony Blair would have swung this past his "sofa cabinet" IN FIFTEEN MINUTES without ever needing to trouble the Commons to vote on it.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by astradt1 on Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:14 pm

Have you noticed that some senior Tories are blaming Labour for this?

Again it's not this Tory Governments fault.............
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:40 pm

........ but if it should turn out to be the Tory Government's fault, then they will simply execute a U-turn and everyone will live happily everafter.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by biglin on Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:53 pm

All political parties are coalitions; does John McDonnell belong to the same party as Andy Burnham?

It's inevitable that when (as we've got now) a broadly centre-left party has gone into a coalition with a broadly centre-right one that differences and tensions will get worse.

On the House of Lords issue I'm not that worked up about it either way. I'm basically more on the Lib Dems' side but it doesn't break me up and IMO it's not a good enough reason to break up the coalition.

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:55 am

oftenwrong wrote:Having experienced the way that his Tory "allies" first briefed against his bid for electoral reform and then firmly voted negatively, Clegg must surely have a good idea what comes next in his pet scheme for Lords' Reform.

Ed Miliband must be tempted to abstain altogether and let the Coalition tear itself very visibly to pieces.

That is a great idea OW, only thing is I would like to be a fly on the wall while they are tearing each other apart, so I do hope that Ed abstains then stands back and watch the fun it could be a real hard lesson for Clegg to learn. He thinks he is OK clegg thinks if Labour gets in at the next GE he will form a coalition with the L/Ds if its needed maybe Labour will but Clegg will not be leader of the L/Ds because he is tainted by association so maybe VC will be leader, I would like to see Ed do to him what he did to Gordon Brown.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:26 am

astradt1 wrote:Have you noticed that some senior Tories are blaming Labour for this?

Again it's not this Tory Governments fault.............

Nothing new then astradt1, what a bunch of jokers they are.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:27 am

blueturando wrote:Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

God please phone them up and ask him to do that Blue.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:10 am

blueturando wrote:Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

Oh blue I hope you have hit the nail on the head on this one, to be able to sit up all night to watch the GE results and see the UK turn RED would be a dream come true for me.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:14 pm

Redflag wrote:
blueturando wrote:Quite a few Tory MP's would like the coalition to split now, call a general election and take their chances against Miliband

Oh blue I hope you have hit the nail on the head on this one, to be able to sit up all night to watch the GE results and see the UK turn RED would be a dream come true for me.

yep party time Red.... lets hope Blue boy can speed it up for us.?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:09 pm

Mel wrote:Cameron had to be seen to be giving his best friend Glegg an opportunity to get the reform of The House Of Lords through Parliament.

I recon they BOTH were fully aware of the FACT that a majority of back Tory benchers would vote against the reforms when the time came.
All done between the two of them, Cameron prepared to suffer a defeat which is nothing compared with having blue Glegg alongside backing every Tory move, with Glegg being seen to be apeasing his own party members.

IMO both utter con men.

When you go back to the run-up to the 2010 May GE, and remember what they both promised while trying to get us to vote for them and to be honest I hope the Tory back benchers do rebel and the fcuking Lords reform Bill is scuppered.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:54 pm

Redflag wrote:
Mel wrote:Cameron had to be seen to be giving his best friend Glegg an opportunity to get the reform of The House Of Lords through Parliament.

I recon they BOTH were fully aware of the FACT that a majority of back Tory benchers would vote against the reforms when the time came.
All done between the two of them, Cameron prepared to suffer a defeat which is nothing compared with having blue Glegg alongside backing every Tory move, with Glegg being seen to be apeasing his own party members.

IMO both utter con men.

When you go back to the run-up to the 2010 May GE, and remember what they both promised while trying to get us to vote for them and to be honest I hope the Tory back benchers do rebel and the fcuking Lords reform Bill is scuppered.

I can agree to a point with you Red. but I would like to also clean out the Tory party deadwood in the Lords too. A catch 22 for us
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:00 pm

The House of Lords is meant to be an apolitical body. Reform will mean they wont be.

It's that simple.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Blamhappy on Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:37 pm

Are most on here of the opinion that Clegg is actually a Tory in disguise?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by bobby on Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Are most on here of the opinion that Clegg is actually a Tory in disguise?

I no longer think he is trying to disguise anything anymore, He is a piggin Tory.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Blamhappy on Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:02 pm

How sad.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:08 pm

Blamhappy wrote:Are most on here of the opinion that Clegg is actually a Tory in disguise?

As a traditional" Labour supporter and activist, there is a part of me that actually feels sorry for Nick Clegg, because he was forced to support the Tory's because her majesty wanted stable Government.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivan on Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:19 am

“What better time to bury bad news – and a coalition?”

Extracts from an article by Mark Ferguson:-

Yesterday evening Cameron slipped his first bit of bad news under the wire. Osborne will remain Chancellor until at least the next election. The man who has done this to the economy will be encouraged to do more damage. The pyromaniac has run out of matches, so Dave hands him a flamethrower to finish the job. Awful news for everyone in the country with two exceptions. Osborne of course, who still has a career (for now), and Ed Balls, who would have been bereft without his favourite Tory chew toy.

Evidently noting that Osborne’s stay of execution had barely rippled the pond of the British consciousness ……Cameron took his chance to squeeze out another golden nugget of bad news. Lords reform, it seems, is dead. After tuition fees, the shambolic budgets, control orders and NHS “reform” all made their way past Clegg and co, I had begun to believe that they’ll swallow anything. But surely not even this passive bunch will swallow this?

If the Lib Dems follow their AV humiliation with failure to reform the Lords, what will they have got out of this coalition exactly? Effectively nothing (unless they kill the boundary review). And even then, is that really an achievement for 5 years in government, stopping one bit of legislation but losing out on your party’s raison d’etre – democratic reform?

Cameron might just have picked the middle of the Olympics as the time to collapse the coalition government.


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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:09 am

The newspapers are now moving firmly into their "silly season", with Parliament in recess, so nothing of importance will emerge from Westminster for at least a month. Then September will bring the Party Conferences which always entertain us, and the internal combustion taking place within the Coalition may become more apparent.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by KnarkyBadger on Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:13 am

Well from what I just read in The New Statesman on line is correct Then thats it lords reform is dead. So what benefit is there of Lib dems being in government as both their pet projects (the hidous compromise of AV & lords) have been defeated. Other than preserving the party for a few more months of course. Personally I hope the parliamentary lib dems stage a coup d'etat and depose clegg, come to their senses and leave the government. Let the mad rabid tory right run as a minority and unite in a "rainbow" coalition of the broad centre left to bring them down. Hopefully (well we can but live in hope) this will pull the Labour party back in the right direction ie Left away from the toxic tory brand and its diet version in the progress sect of blairism.
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KnarkyBadger

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

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