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Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

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What's the point of the House of Lords?

Post by Papaumau on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:40 pm

First topic message reminder :


Recently the present government have had six of their policies defeated in the upper house and yet all that happens is that any defeated Bill is brought back to the commons and still forced through using the power of the whips and the support of the traitorous Lib Dems.

This makes The Lords into nothing but a place to doze off or an upper-class talking shop. If this is the case then why do we not get rid of it and the expense it causes us all right now ?

Regards....

Papaumau.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by KnarkyBadger on Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:13 am

Well from what I just read in The New Statesman on line is correct Then thats it lords reform is dead. So what benefit is there of Lib dems being in government as both their pet projects (the hidous compromise of AV & lords) have been defeated. Other than preserving the party for a few more months of course. Personally I hope the parliamentary lib dems stage a coup d'etat and depose clegg, come to their senses and leave the government. Let the mad rabid tory right run as a minority and unite in a "rainbow" coalition of the broad centre left to bring them down. Hopefully (well we can but live in hope) this will pull the Labour party back in the right direction ie Left away from the toxic tory brand and its diet version in the progress sect of blairism.

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:08 pm

The thing is, could we see a general election before 2015 ?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:17 pm

The Tories have struck at the NHS, reduced the top rate of tax, sacked numerous public employees, revised the benefits system, reorganised Education, seen-off Proportional Voting, House of Lords reform and heralded a TREBLE-dip depression.

They probably feel they can retire with honour now.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:06 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The Tories have struck at the NHS, reduced the top rate of tax, sacked numerous public employees, revised the benefits system, reorganised Education, seen-off Proportional Voting, House of Lords reform and heralded a TREBLE-dip depression.

They probably feel they can retire with honour now.

You can bet your life they do. The Tory's have an ideological agenda, and they are sticking to it, talk about principles.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:05 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:The Tories have struck at the NHS, reduced the top rate of tax, sacked numerous public employees, revised the benefits system, reorganised Education, seen-off Proportional Voting, House of Lords reform and heralded a TREBLE-dip depression.

They probably feel they can retire with honour now.

You can bet your life they do. The Tory's have an ideological agenda, and they are sticking to it, talk about principles.

Principles my ass and parsley he has not got a principled bone in his body, I wonder what the L/Ds will do now that Scam,,er,,on has came out and said he will not bother with the Lords reform bill ??
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Bunnyrunner on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:43 pm

Redflag wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:The Tories have struck at the NHS, reduced the top rate of tax, sacked numerous public employees, revised the benefits system, reorganised Education, seen-off Proportional Voting, House of Lords reform and heralded a TREBLE-dip depression.

They probably feel they can retire with honour now.

You can bet your life they do. The Tory's have an ideological agenda, and they are sticking to it, talk about principles.

Principles my ass and parsley he has not got a principled bone in his body, I wonder what the L/Ds will do now that Scam,,er,,on has came out and said he will not bother with the Lords reform bill ??

Er...What they always do, bugger all.:albino:
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:52 pm

Bunnyrunner wrote:
Redflag wrote:
Ivanhoe wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:The Tories have struck at the NHS, reduced the top rate of tax, sacked numerous public employees, revised the benefits system, reorganised Education, seen-off Proportional Voting, House of Lords reform and heralded a TREBLE-dip depression.

They probably feel they can retire with honour now.

You can bet your life they do. The Tory's have an ideological agenda, and they are sticking to it, talk about principles.

Principles my ass and parsley he has not got a principled bone in his body, I wonder what the L/Ds will do now that Scam,,er,,on has came out and said he will not bother with the Lords reform bill ??

Er...What they always do, bugger all.:albino:

Your more than likely correct Bunnyrunner, but they could rebel and not give Scam..er..on his boundary changes which will F**K him up for trying to fix the next GE in favour of the tories.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:29 pm

Today, Clegg is forced to admit that his Party's ambition of reforming the House of Lords cannot succeed now that his Tory partners in the Coalition have "broken the contract".

Surely that's the end of the Tory-led Coalition isn't it?

If there is no longer a contract, how can they sit together when Parliament resumes on September 3rd.?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:09 pm

How could they do what they've done up to now? They have no morals, and i have no sympathy for the yellow b'stards! Did they really think for one minute that those two face tory toss pots would honour their side of the bargain? What a bunch of naive idiots they are! I hope they're wiped off the political map forever!
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:39 pm

If the LibDumbs don't now pull the plug on support for the proposed electoral boundary changes, we must all wonder just how stupid they are.

Trusting any Tory 'promise' on anything is naive in the extreme, and akin to having confidence in finding a troupe of fairies whistling happy tunes at the bottom of the garden.

But I have a feeling that we shall see The Puppet Clegg keeping to his side of the 'the bargain' and seeking to make capital out of doing so by presenting his pathetic party as having more honour and integrity than his disgusting partners ( not difficult!).

What did we do to deserve this unholy amalgam of The Spineless and The Corrupt ...? Shocked
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:08 pm

"But Grandmother! What big ears you have," said Little Red Riding Hood as she edged closer to the bed.

"The better to hear you with, my dear," replied the wolf.

"But Grandmother! What big eyes you have," said Little Red Riding Hood.

"The better to see you with, my dear," replied the wolf.

"But Grandmother! What big teeth you have," said Little Red Riding Hood her voice quivering slightly.

"The better to eat you with, my dear," roared Cameron the wolf as he leapt out of the bed and began to chase the little Liberals.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:42 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:If the LibDumbs don't now pull the plug on support for the proposed electoral boundary changes, we must all wonder just how stupid they are.

Trusting any Tory 'promise' on anything is naive in the extreme, and akin to having confidence in finding a troupe of fairies whistling happy tunes at the bottom of the garden.

But I have a feeling that we shall see The Puppet Clegg keeping to his side of the 'the bargain' and seeking to make capital out of doing so by presenting his pathetic party as having more honour and integrity than his disgusting partners ( not difficult!).

What did we do to deserve this unholy amalgam of The Spineless and The Corrupt ...? Shocked

""What did we do" ?. We did nothing, as per bloody normal.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by betty.noire on Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:28 pm

Presumably Labour could have voted for reform ?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Bunnyrunner on Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:54 pm

We NEED a second chamber....BUT...We don't need it stuffed with party representives getting a reward, Bishops (Why? Just Why?), and the Landed Gentry. We need an ELECTED 2nd chamber, with real power to change rubbish legislation not just pass it back to the Commons.:albino:
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:31 pm

betty.noire wrote:Presumably Labour could have voted for reform ?

Presumably the British electorate could have voted more decisively in May 2010 and avoided the disaster of an unholy alliance.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by astradt1 on Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:47 pm

Why should Clegg be surprised that Cameron has, in his words, broken the contract between them........Isn't that what Cameron and this Con/Dem government been doing to public sector workers, breaking the contract on pensions......

Didn't Clegg sign a pledge(Contract) on Not Raising University Fees?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by blueturando on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:56 am

Presumably Labour could have voted for reform ?.

Yes they could have but they didn't, even after years of saying they wanted reform. One more reason why the public can't trust Labour and why they lost in 2010

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Mel on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:03 am

Does nothing phase these Tory supporters? All hell has broken loose between the LD's and the Tory tyrants, which has now at last exposed Toties as not to be trusted, as we had known and expected a rift at sometime.
This stab in the back for Clegg (well deserved) and ALL the many not surprising UNPOPULAR Tory onslought measures brought upon the many, especially the poor, the sick and the disabled, which Clegg and Co have backed to the hilt, is still defended and supported by these never say die blinkered Tory lovers.

What is it with these people who can defend tyrants and blame Labour in the same breath, totally ignoring and dismissing all the evil that is being dished out as plain as a pike staff?
I suppose we have to expect that evil is sometimes somehow embraced by a minority, usually the wealthy. It is as history has shown us, nothing really changes as far as humans are concerned.

I shall stick wth me dog in preference. Smile
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by astradt1 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:19 am

I wonder how many times, under the last government, the Tories refused to vote for Laws with which they agreed but cited the way the Law had been written as being the reason?

Who in their right mind would vote to allow someone to have 15 in power?

It's bad enough that we have to wait 5 years to be able to get rid of Governments from now on thanks to the Tories grab for power.........

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by tlttf on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:55 am

Having observed without posting for a while thought I should point out that the Lords reform wasn't part of the contract between the con's and lib's. The contract was if the con;s supported a referendum for AV then the lib's would support boundary changes, end of. What Clegg is doing is attempting to line himself up with labour on the off chance that come 2015 there might be a deal going. We should remember of course that Labour wanted Lords reform yet voted against it.

Reality check, the lib's are pushing for a coalition with labour, labour are simply opportunists and the tories are trying to deliver what they said (though some don't like it).

On the positive side Vince Cable (lab/lib/coalition) has just announced an energy deal that will create 4,000 new jobs. Things can't be all bad then!

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:05 am

blueturando wrote:
Presumably Labour could have voted for reform ?.

Yes they could have but they didn't, even after years of saying they wanted reform. One more reason why the public can't trust Labour and why they lost in 2010

bluey, Labour didnt lose the last general election, "New" Laboiur did. Do you see what I mean now, by you parroting the media ?

"New" Labour were right wing because they continued Thatcher's free market policies, they widened the rich and poor divide Thatcher left behind.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by tlttf on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:09 am

So Ivanhoe, did you vote NL between 1997-2010, or did you abstain?

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:28 am

tlttf wrote:So Ivanhoe, did you vote NL between 1997-2010, or did you abstain?

Margaret Thatcher was the one PM who motivated me to get involved with politics, and at that thime there were two policies of hers that I was appauled at.

1. When she broke the State pensions link to male average earnings, a policy set up by a "true" Labour Government in 1974 to protect the value of the basic State pension for our elderly people.

2. When she sold off council houses at knock down prices as an opportunist policy to get votes off working class people, but she did not continue building council houses, she stopped building them, thus leading to the housing crisis we have today..

So prior to the 1997 general election when we heard the apparantly fine speeches from Tony Blair who had been voted in to lead the Labour party at the general election, I like millions of others after 18 rotten Tory years with over 3 million unemployed, voted what I believed to be a Labour Government into office.

But sadly this was not to be, due to both Blair and Brown continuing Thatcher's right wing policies. So I regard your question "tlttf", to be rather shallow, indifferent, and kneejerk.

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by astradt1 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:48 am


Land
Having observed without posting for a while thought I should point out that the Lords reform wasn't part of the contract between the con's and lib's. The contract was if the con;s supported a referendum for AV then the lib's would support boundary changes, end of.

So the Libdems sold their souls for just ONE Policy.......... Now thats what i call cheap...

The Tories keep trotting out the line that Lords Reform was not part of the Coalition Agreement but I'm sure many people would like to see this agreement in Print so that they can make up their own minds as to whether it was as one sided as you seem to be saying it is......
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by bobby on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:16 am

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:39 pm

Landy quote " I should point out that the Lords reform wasn't part of the contract between the con's and lib's."

If we study page 27 of the Coalition Agreement , can we take the view that Landy has tried the usual Tory trick of suggesting that black is white when the facts don't suit?! Perhaps he would also like us to believe that there is massive growth in the economy and that unemployment is under half a million , while the moon is made of succulent cheese?

Sometimes the world just ain't what you want it to be and pretence is the only option..... Very Happy
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Mel on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:12 pm

Indeed Phil,

"suggesting that black is white" and everything good is blue. All the policies benefit the better off and do the very opposite of helping the poor and the majority.
Is is possible our Tory loving friend has benefited, as he is surely one who could be considerd better off than most? Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Mel on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:15 pm

Thanks for the link bobby. That's put the kibosh on the nonsense posted here at 9:59 am.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by astradt1 on Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:33 pm

Interesting how the two issues which are likely to cause the coalition to break down are both about issues which would only benefit the parties involved and no other person in Britain....

AV would have meant the likelihood of more LibDem MPs and Boundary Changes more Tory MPs ....

So from these two parties it's a case of, sod the rest of the population, we're looking after ourselves, as usual...........
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivan on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:16 pm

Yes they could have but they didn't, even after years of saying they wanted reform. One more reason why the public can't trust Labour and why they lost in 2010
blueturando. In case you’ve forgotten, it was Tory MPs who blocked reform of the House of Lords, because as always they prefer patronage and inheritance to democracy. Had the Tories been prepared to honour the coalition agreement, the change could have gone through regardless of anything Labour does.

The Labour Party has always been in favour of reform of the House of Lords, and that was in the last Labour manifesto. However, most of that is being ditched, since the party only won 29% of the votes with it. As Sunny Hundal has written: “Labour’s priority right now should be to ensure this is a one-term government, and to stop it from passing more destructive legislation. Nothing else matters.”
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The Liberal Democrats are quite entitled to block boundary changes, as this government promised to make Parliament more democratic. What Cameron has done is to stuff the House of Lords with more than a hundred of his unelected cronies and now wants to reduce the number of democratically-elected MPs from 650 to 600, just to give the Tories an extra 20 seats. The overall effect would be to reduce the democratic accountability of Parliament.

For a Tory to talk about trust makes me laugh! How many promises has Cameron broken? 36% of voters trusted him not to mess with the NHS, but as Portillo told us, if he’d revealed the plans (which Lansley had been working on for seven years) he wouldn’t be in Downing Street now. 23% of voters trusted the Liberal Democrats to support left-wing policies and adhere to their individual pledges to abolish student tuition fees. Yes, Labour lost, but why? Primarily because Murdoch knew Gordon Brown wouldn't hand him BSkyB on a plate and launched a ferocious and disgraceful media campaign against him. The result was that enough idiots were brainwashed into voting for these rancid coalition parties.


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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Ivanhoe on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:51 am

oftenwrong wrote:The Tories have struck at the NHS, reduced the top rate of tax, sacked numerous public employees, revised the benefits system, reorganised Education, seen-off Proportional Voting, House of Lords reform and heralded a TREBLE-dip depression.

They probably feel they can retire with honour now.

Many a true word, spoken in jest.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:40 am

The House of Lords is a medieval relic from a time when land ownership was a major source of political power, and just as ownership of land moved from generation to generation so did the titles. As the House of Commons became the prime chamber the powers of the Lords were eroded and life peerages broke the historical link with land ownership.

This body we are commonly told must be replaced by one which is part elected and part-appointed; but it would inevitably acquire – through election – an authority that could be used to challenge the primacy of the Commons.

There is a case for a national advisory committee to look at legislation and make recommendations to the Commons, which would be the deciding body. This committee should be a representative gathering of people from different parts of our society, which would not be called Lords or enjoy any of the finery associated with that chamber.

How such an advisory body could be established would require further thought, to be sure that it would be genuinely representative of experience and interests and would have a contribution to make to legislation through its advice.

To do this would be to abolish the House of Lords altogether and start afresh in a way that was useful and constructive. The Labour Party should be working on this idea and should reject completely the proposals the coalition government has brought forward.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:31 am

Unless there is a change of heart on the Coalition benches, there will be no reform of the House of Lords in this Parliament.

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:13 am

oftenwrong wrote:Unless there is a change of heart on the Coalition benches, there will be no reform of the House of Lords in this Parliament.

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Nice pix and yes I believe that is a very fair summary OW. I cannot fully understand why the Lib/Dem wanted such a bad reform bill in the first place. still it will fail and with luck we could have a real reform of the house of Lords bill.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:19 am

Can I just add I thought this was just about the worst Lords reform bill I have every seen. as it fails to meet any true reform of that place.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:24 am

Stox 16 wrote:Can I just add I thought this was just about the worst Lords reform bill I have every seen. as it fails to meet any true reform of that place.

Could you explain Stox what the L/Ds where thinking or not thinking when they produced the Lords reform bill, I can not see how it would benefit the L/Ds who in hell is going to vote for any L/D MP or Lord, me thinks there brains are just a plate of mushy peas.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:29 am

Redflag wrote:
Stox 16 wrote:Can I just add I thought this was just about the worst Lords reform bill I have every seen. as it fails to meet any true reform of that place.

Could you explain Stox what the L/Ds where thinking or not thinking when they produced the Lords reform bill, I can not see how it would benefit the L/Ds who in hell is going to vote for any L/D MP or Lord, me thinks there brains are just a plate of mushy peas.


think this sums it up very well Red

Tony Benn's view is this?

The House of Lords is a medieval relic from a time when land ownership was a major source of political power, and just as ownership of land moved from generation to generation so did the titles. As the House of Commons became the prime chamber the powers of the Lords were eroded and life peerages broke the historical link with land ownership.

This body we are commonly told must be replaced by one which is part elected and part-appointed; but it would inevitably acquire – through election – an authority that could be used to challenge the primacy of the Commons.

There is a case for a national advisory committee to look at legislation and make recommendations to the Commons, which would be the deciding body. This committee should be a representative gathering of people from different parts of our society, which would not be called Lords or enjoy any of the finery associated with that chamber.

How such an advisory body could be established would require further thought, to be sure that it would be genuinely representative of experience and interests and would have a contribution to make to legislation through its advice.

To do this would be to abolish the House of Lords altogether and start afresh in a way that was useful and constructive. The Labour Party should be working on this idea and should reject completely the proposals the coalition government has brought forward.

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Scarecrow on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:12 am

Stox , the lords can at present pick up £300 a day tax free for sitting , this is soon to be taxed , but that sums up what is so wrong with the other place.
People are living hand to mouth and these ermine clad airheads are in another dimension , they are out of touch and out of control with the moral compass of the UK period. Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Stox 16 on Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:16 am

Scarecrow wrote:Stox , the lords can at present pick up £300 a day tax free for sitting , this is soon to be taxed , but that sums up what is so wrong with the other place.
People are living hand to mouth and these ermine clad airheads are in another dimension , they are out of touch and out of control with the moral compass of the UK period. Evil or Very Mad

Good to see you Scarecrow on here once more. How could anyone disagree with any of what you have written. well not me anyway

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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by Redflag on Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:35 am

Stox 16 wrote:
Scarecrow wrote:Stox , the lords can at present pick up £300 a day tax free for sitting , this is soon to be taxed , but that sums up what is so wrong with the other place.
People are living hand to mouth and these ermine clad airheads are in another dimension , they are out of touch and out of control with the moral compass of the UK period. Evil or Very Mad

Good to see you Scarecrow on here once more. How could anyone disagree with any of what you have written. well not me anyway

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Your pic is great Stox and as the captions says he needs to clean up the Tory party first and foremost, then get started on the Tory Donors tax affairs so that if they want to do business in the UK they pay the full amount of tax in the UK.
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:51 am

Not to mention the "Non_Doms".

Though now I have mentioned them, why on earth shouldn't they pay taxes like the rest of us?
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Re: Lib Dems want House of Lords reform, some Tories don't. Who's right?

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