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Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

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Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by sickchip on Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

In recent times Tories have been branded as being arrogant posh boys out of their depth. Andrew Mitchell's recent confrontation with a policeman, and the comments he allegedly made, seem to bear this out - despite Cameron's desperate attempts to rescue the Tories image from being tarnished by the occasion.

Their policies, and particularly those they target/punish via cutbacks, seem to bear the notion of class elitism out. They persistently punish the poor, and most vulnerable, with no regard for the hardship and impossible circumstances they place them in - on the other hand they continue rewarding the rich with ever more opportunities to avoid tax, get richer, etc.

It is the Tories who are responsible for waging a 'class war'.

Mitchell's outburst should not be dismissed as a 'fit of pique', temper, etc.......it was the mask slipping to reveal the odious nature of those currently governing us.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Ivan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:15 pm

Tosh. Under Labour, the poorest became richer but the richest became even richer. Under the Tories, the poorest are getting poorer but the rich are still getting richer - thanks to the policies being implemented (job losses, benefit cuts and a VAT rise, alongside £40k per annum tax cuts for millionaires).

I thought you were supposed to be an SNP supporter, but you come across more as a closet Tory.


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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by sickchip on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:35 pm

Tosh, you have again related this to simply money.

Critically - what the tories do is deprive the poor of equal opportunities in terms of education, health, employment rights, and the means to pursue their rights/grievances with adequate legal assistance (they can't afford to protect themselves via the law). These things are the basis from which the tories ensure economic inequalities are maintained - and indeed increased.

....at least Labour are the party that have traditionally attempted to offer a greater degree of equality in education and health - thus offering some measure of equality of opportunity.


Last edited by sickchip on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:36 pm

I thought you were supposed to be an SNP supporter, but you come across more as a closet Tory.

Ivan,

What is the philosophical difference between a left wing Tory, right wing Labour and a liberal Democrat in the 21 st century ?

I am against the far right and the far left, as is the majority of voters, hence the need for a coalition, if it was up to me I would discard first past the post.

I have had enough of ideological heroes, consensus politics is pragmatic rather than dynamic, just the way I like it.

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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:51 pm

Critically - what the tories do is deprive the poor of equal opportunities in terms of education, health, employment rights, and the means to pursue their rights/grievances with adequate legal assistance (they can't afford to protect themselves via the law). These things are the basis from which the tories ensure economic inequalities are maintained - and indeed increased. .

We have public education and health, legal aid and employment rights under a Tory government, the poor are not being deprived of equal opportunities. You have not provided me with one logical reason why a conservative wants to maintain or increase economic inequality, this is simply your emotional bias distorting reality.

You do not like unequal outcomes, and you believe more MONEY should be redistributed toward the poor.

Me too, but I see no value in policies that will make everyone poor and equal.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Left wing socialists should learn the lessons taught to the unions, if you push the public's perception of fairness too far they will overreact and overcompensate.

Asking the majority to pay more than they deem fair ( in a freakin depression ) out of some ideological theory on fairness, is inviting disaster.



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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by astradt1 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:17 pm

I wonder how much pressure was put on the Policeman to make sure he accepted this non-apology from Mitchell.......Who still maintains he didn't say what he has been reported as saying.....So what's he apologised for?????

Just think now you can swear at the police so long as you say sorry afterwards...
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Ivan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:24 pm

your unhealhy obsession with a political party that would be considered left wing socialist in America.
Tosh. LOL. Once again you show that you’re way out of your depth when discussing politics. The Tories are the UK equivalent of the mad hatter Tea Party branch of the Republican Party. Their policies are all but identical – privatise everything in sight, abolish any public healthcare and “shrink the state until it’s small enough to drown in a bathtub” (Grover Norquist). Who did the Tories support in 2008? Answer – John McCain and Sarah Palin, and they even invited McCain to their annual conference.

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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Ivan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:27 pm

Just think now you can swear at the police so long as you say sorry afterwards... .
astradt1. Ah, but you can't - 'plebs' get sent to jail:-

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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by astradt1 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:36 pm

Ivan wrote:
Just think now you can swear at the police so long as you say sorry afterwards... .
astradt1. Ah, but you can't - 'plebs' get sent to jail:-

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I wonder if the Mitchell defense of a "Long Frustrating Day" would hold water with the courts?
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Adele Carlyon on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:43 pm

I've had some really long frustrating days...

I work in a hairdressing supplies shop in st helens, it's awfully frustrating dealing with silly buggers who have glued their hair extensions to their soddin heads with super glue and others who have glued their false eyelashes on with hot melt glue. BUT i don't resort to calling them plebs! Not to their faces as least! LOL Joke btw!!! Razz
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:49 pm

Tosh. LOL. Once again you show that you’re way out of your depth when discussing politics.

Ivan my friend, please stop making unsupported statements during a discussion, you must demonstrate how I am out of my depth discussing politics, repeating it does not make it so, may I remind you of the CoC ?



The Tories are the UK equivalent of the mad hatter Tea Party branch of the Republican Party. Their policies are all but identical – privatise everything in sight, abolish any public healthcare and

The Tory party is not abolishing public healthcare, they are carrying out efficiency cuts/changes that you disagree with, this in no way is the equivalent to the Tea Party's policy on healthcare, and John McCain was not a member of the Tea Party, far from it.

The Democratic party would not authorise a National ( Publicly Funded) Business Bank and yet the Tories have just announced one.

It seems they do not wish to privatise everything as you incorrectly claim.

Want to borrow my lifejacket, I don't need mine.



Last edited by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:55 pm

Tosh wrote: ....

We have public education and health, legal aid and employment rights under a Tory government, the poor are not being deprived of equal opportunities.....

Of course, and as a High Court Judge memorably said, "Every man is entitled to stay at The Ritz Hotel."
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:59 pm

Of course, and as a High Court Judge memorably said, "Every man is entitled to stay at The Ritz Hotel.".

Nice rhetoric, pity about its lack of content, you need more than a few quirky soundbites to persuade the public, and me.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:05 pm

5,000 Labour supporters wanting Scottish Independance held a rally today, I wonder if redflag was there ?
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Ivan on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:10 pm

Tosh. You never cease to make unsupported statements when discussing politics. Perhaps the best example was your sweeping and false generalisation that Thatcher “ended entitlement”.

The Tories haven’t announced a new bank, the Liberal Democrats have. And as the Tories have privatised everything from police dog handlers to prisons and even some Whitehall advisers, I think it’s quite reasonable to assume that they are hell-bent on privatising everything, all in accordance with the shock tactics prescribed by Milton Friedman.

In case you’ve missed it, Tory donor Adam Beecroft is trying to persuade our wonderful government to remove all employment rights and allow bosses to sack people without having to give a reason. The Tories have already brought in a fee of £1,200 to discourage sacked workers from going to an industrial tribunal. And if you’d wake up and smell the coffee, you would notice that the NHS in England is being privatised by stealth, with firms such as Virgin Care taking over large chunks of it.

I didn’t say that McCain was a Tea Party crank, but his running mate Palin is certainly one of their heroes. My point is that, far from resembling ‘left wing socialists’, the Tories are the natural allies of the Republican Party and don't hide the fact.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:13 pm

"....you need more than a few quirky soundbites to persuade the public, and me."

That must be a terrible responsibility, to speak on behalf of the entire Public.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:20 pm

That must be a terrible responsibility, to speak on behalf of the entire Public..

I speak on behalf of their intelligence, your rhetoric lacks evidential content.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by astradt1 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:23 pm

Strange how I thought this thread was about whether the Tories viewed the majority of Brits as plebs....not another one about the Tories and the NHS....
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:37 pm

Hopefully, Voters will recall the contempt in which they are held by Tory MPs at the next Election. Corby, I think.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:48 pm

Tosh. You never cease to make unsupported statements when discussing politics. Perhaps the best example was your sweeping and false generalisation that Thatcher “ended entitlement”.

She ended a car workers entitlement to sleep on the night shift.



The Tories haven’t announced a new bank, the Liberal Democrats have.

Will the Tories vote for it, yes or no ?

And as the Tories have privatised everything from police dog handlers to prisons and even some Whitehall advisers, I think it’s quite reasonable to assume that they are hell-bent on privatising everything, all in accordance with the shock tactics prescribed by Milton Friedman.

I fail to see how you can extrapolate to this degree, it is bordering on hysteria, there are some public institutions that I do not consider sacrosanct and should be privatised, and there are some private institutions that I believe should be publicly owned. Privatising the prisons or the Post Office does not affect the poor or needy, utility monopolies does.

In case you’ve missed it, Tory donor Adam Beecroft is trying to persuade our wonderful government to remove all employment rights and allow bosses to sack people without having to give a reason.

I listened to him, he is entitled to his radical opinion, it is not an opinion shared by the coalition.

The Tories have already brought in a fee of £1,200 to discourage sacked workers from going to an industrial tribunal.

I disagree with the ( £160 up to £1200) fees and I believe another way should have been found to discourage weak claims and encourage mediation. I believe the fees may be on an ability to pay basis, but I may be mistaken.

And if you’d wake up and smell the coffee, you would notice that the NHS in England is being privatised by stealth, with firms such as Virgin Care taking over large chunks of it.

Ivan, who pays Virgin Care ?

Do the poor pay extra for their healthcare with Virgin Care or is it free ?
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by methought on Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:02 am

If a Tory minister calls a worker a pleb, he is surely regarding himself in contrast to that plebiean person as something else - toff would probably cover it okay.

Vince has identified himself with the plebs tonight, anyway.

Hi oftenwrong - Keynesian expansion replaced devaluation and this has now been replaced with quantitative easing. It's all about money from nowhere, and it is fine for our sovereign economy to use this instead of debt money, which instead ratchets up our interest payments, for the mega-rich to play with, perpetuating the debt economy. There would be nothing wrong with using created money to pay for service industries either, as long as import and exports payments were still balanced.

It is good to see that Cable's plan for a well stocked government loan bank, is for it to be used to support businesses instead of to pay off other countries' debts, just putting more 'money' into the hands of the big name banking cartels. The World Bank got rich by creating money from nowhere and lending it to other countries, getting real money and interest back in exchange, so why can't we? Did someone say 'immoral'? No I thought not...
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:47 am

"It is good to see that Cable's plan for a well stocked government loan bank, is for it to be used to support businesses ...."

If only it were that simple. Vince Cable's explanation of his SME Bank does not mention making new funds available to borrowers. Evidently the proposal is for the Government (meaning Taxpayer) to buy from the Banks some of the toxic rubbish mortgages which the silly fools "invested in" prior to 2008, thus freeing other bank-held assets for lending to small business.

Summarised in my opinion as "Smoke and Mirrors".
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by bobby on Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:20 pm

Anything is easy for the Lib-Dems to prommise, cos when it goes Tits up, or simply doesn't happen, It becomes the fault of them nasty Tories, and vicey versey.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by methought on Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:12 pm

Summarised in my opinion as "Smoke and Mirrors".

Totally!

And if the rich can fool us with the ploy, then why not have the plebs do it for themselves? The World Bank has used the system to build a stash for itself out of other countries' debt. It may have been under-written by the mega-rich to start with, or it may not, but it has fooled us all into following its rules.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by sickchip on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:38 pm

"It is good to see that Cable's plan for a well stocked government loan bank, is for it to be used to support businesses ...."If only it were that simple. Vince Cable's explanation of his SME Bank does not mention making new funds available to borrowers. Evidently the proposal is for the Government (meaning Taxpayer) to buy from the Banks some of the toxic rubbish mortgages which the silly fools "invested in" prior to 2008, thus freeing other bank-held assets for lending to small business.

Summarised in my opinion as "Smoke and Mirrors".
Spot on, OW.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Ivan on Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:56 pm

"Andrew Mitchell and the truth about 'nasty' Tories"

Extracts from an article by Janet Daley:-

"As someone who has defended the Conservatives (or at least defended their arguments) for so many years, it is time to come clean. Tories can be bloody difficult to like. The Andrew Mitchell debacle is not an uncharacteristic, deranged and inexplicable lapse. It is just an extreme example of the kind of attitude with which many people who circulate in this world are familiar.

While most of us who associate with Conservatives do not get sworn at or described at ‘plebs’, we have been variously snubbed, dismissed, or found ourselves becoming pointedly invisible in the presence of people to whom we are no longer of use….And oddly enough, this never, ever happens with Labour politicians – even though we are clearly in genial disagreement over major issues. They inevitably greet me with warm recollection years after a joint radio or television gig – even if the occasion involved heated conflict.

And again oddly, it is the Tory modernisers – perhaps because they are more likely to be ‘toffs’ – who are the worst. It is not the Thatcherite, aspirational, state school-educated Tories who look over your shoulder when they are talking to you: it is the snotty, condescending ‘one nation’ paternalists for whom you are only of interest so long as you are being ‘supportive’ (i.e. as faithful as a labrador)."


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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:35 pm

snotty, condescending ‘one nation’ paternalist

That's right, Officer! That's the man!
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Redflag on Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:40 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:"Mitchell's outburst should not be dismissed as a 'fit of pique', temper, etc.......it was the mask slipping to reveal the odious nature of those currently governing us."

The nail is hit on the head. As Mitchell should be - preferably by a police baton.

But it could just as easily have been Gove, Pickles, Hunt, Lansley or any of the other many despicable creeps that currently infest the Tory Party...


PH the Tories have ALWAYS been the same looking down there noses at the working class in other words either pheasants or phelbs, but the day will come when we get our own back on them May 2015 then I will broadcast right across the w.w.w. "The One Term Firm" and it will not be just for 13 years they will be out on there ear for it will be for a long long time because nobody will believe them again. cheers
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by blueturando on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:22 pm

REDFLAG.....What and who are the working class?

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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by bobby on Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:04 pm

Hello Blue, Perhaps this might jog your memory.

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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:27 pm

REDFLAG.....What and who are the working class?.

He lives in the Tardis or in the " Hovis " advert.

dooo do doo......dooo do do.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:29 pm

A working class joiner, electrician and plumber in the South earns no less than £60,000 per year.

Go figure.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Redflag on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:34 pm

blueturando wrote:REDFLAG.....What and who are the working class?

Any one who goes to work for around 40 or more hours per week and comes out with SH***Y pay, or the cleaner that pays more tax than her CEO boss.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by sickchip on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:55 pm

Tosh wrote:A working class joiner, electrician and plumber in the South earns no less than £60,000 per year.

Go figure.

You have demonstrated here that you don't know what you are talking about, tosh.

Maybe if you'd preceded your comment with 'some' and then qualified the comment by saying they'd be working 10-12hr days seven days per week to do that.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Tosh on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:12 pm

Maybe if you'd preceded your comment with 'some' and then qualified the comment by saying they'd be working 10-12hr days seven days per week to do that..

All, and they earn more if they also work for a council, they finish their 8 hour work alloation in 3 hours and return to their own self employed business. I have many trade friends in the South and they are the biggest tax cheats in Britain, I have a joiner friend who works at heathrow on £55k per year ffs !!
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Ivan on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:36 pm

they are the biggest tax cheats in Britain
That I doubt. Start with Vodaphone and Philip Green, and don't bother to claim that what they do is 'legal' - they're tax cheats however you look at it. Then look at the scum in the government, such as Osborne and Hammond, who stash their wealth abroad to avoid paying tax and then tell us "we're all in this together".

Thanks for another party political on behalf of the Tories, they must be proud of you.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by bobby on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:59 pm

Tosh wrote: I have many trade friends in the South and they are the biggest tax cheats in Britain, I have a joiner friend who works at heathrow on £55k per year ffs !!

Which leads me to wonder just how many friends will you have once they read this. Personally I treat my friends with much more respect.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by blueturando on Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:31 am

Surely anyone that works is 'WORKING CLASS'?

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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Redflag on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:09 am

blueturando wrote:Surely anyone that works is 'WORKING CLASS'?

Yes your quite right blue, but what you need to do is tell your party that and watch them laugh there heads off at you, because they do and always have done think that they are a cut above everybody else or to put it plainly "The Upper Class" and much better than the rest of us. cheers
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:04 am

blueturando wrote:Surely anyone that works is 'WORKING CLASS'?

There are many people who would tell us that they "work" at something which to the majority sounds like a sinecure.

"Non-executive Directors" who receive up to £100,000 a year to attend four Board Meetings.

Chairmen of Quangos in receipt of six-figure salaries which are paid through a Limited Company to reduce income tax.

"Consultants" brought in by a Government Department to cloak an unpopular decision (such as restricting disability allowances).

Former Ministers who collect £250,000 for a two hour after-dinner speech.

Hedge Fund Managers who buy a Company with its own money.

Their Noble Lordships who collect a generous attendance fee for snoozing through most of the speeches.
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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

Post by Mel on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:06 am

Short for plebian, derived from the period of the Ancient Romans. The plebeians were the general body of Roman citizens and those who were privileged were labeled patricians.
Nowadays, a pleb is one associated with those in the lower class. They often lack integrity and sophistication, while many people who consider themselves modern-day patricians often lookdown and mock them.

The operative word here is "lower class". Andrew Mitchell is just one of many Tories who consider themselves better than the majority of people and therefore have a nasty trait of looking down upon them.

The old Tory saying has remained-- "he/she is not one of us"
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Mel

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Join date : 2011-10-08

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Re: Do the Tories really view the majority of us as 'plebs'?

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