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Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

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Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

Should Governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDNHM84lBA0

These lies were and are given to insure social harmony in an uneducated and gullible population. Our Governments lie and allow liars to lie to us of the supernatural, fantasy and magic.

Governments learned a long ago that religions were a good tool to use for social manipulation and control. Governments allowed and encouraged belief in fantasy, miracles and magic, the opium of the masses, and have lived with the drugged up population and religions.

Governments, with this noble lie, have maintained the current idiocy of immoral teachings within religions and have caused much unjust discrimination and denigration of innocent populations of Gays, women and many others, for just doing what we now see as moral.

Do you think we have matured enough as a people that we can now rescind the laws that protect religions and gives them a tax haven and legitimacy?

Are we intelligent enough to not need these lies anymore?

Can the population take our real reality or is the Government just going to let the flim-flam con game of religions to continue to damage the mental capabilities of the citizens in our country?

Flim-flam and con artists are subject to the law of the land. --- except for religions.

Can the population of take the truth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4QXOgVfY9k&feature=player_embedded


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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:28 pm


But who cares,

Only pretentious anoraks who fear debating thread content.




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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:36 pm

Snowy,

There is certain poster on here who cannot debate to save himself but he can run posts through a spell check to make himself feel less redundant....


,,,oh, and copy/paste famous quotes like a veritable sage.

Very amusing character, weak but amusing. Basketball

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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by snowyflake on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:47 pm

A message from an educated and intelligent person contains several spelling errors. Presumably (but correct me if I'm wrong) intended to suggest that writing "William" instead of "Warren" was also no more than a typo.

No OW...it was intended to keep you amused for a few moments. Smile
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by snowyflake on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:49 pm

Hello Tosh Smile Don't be so hard on OW! You're cracking a nut with a sledgehammer. Smile
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Shirina on Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:56 pm

Birth control is not the cause of India’s abject poverty. The world’s second most populous nation wallows in an indigenous culture in which cows walk around alive while people starve. In my opinion, the caste system doesn’t help, either.


While there is a small religious sect that actually venerates cows (as well as other creatures) due to the Hindu belief in reincarnation, that is not the reason why cows are not widely consumed in India. The first and foremost reason is that India does not have a massive "Great Plains" region and cattle grazing is a very inefficient way to use arable land. Beef is far more expensive than grain to produce and it's highly perishable. Those in poverty would starve anyway because they could neither afford the cost of beef nor do many have refrigerators to store meat. Poverty in India is far and away worse than in the US. At least here, even the poor usually have standard appliances.

Another reason is that the rural poor have the same working relationship with cows as American "cowboys" had with their horses. In many respects cows keep them alive, providing everything from milk to using their dung as heating fuel and sources of light. They pull the plows that churn the soil, produce a lot of fertilizer to keep the soil fertile, and they even help form community bonds as individual farmers arrange deals with each other to have their cows mate (most people only have one or two cows).

It's a long-standing Western myth that Indians starve because they worship cows, but the Indian people are much more pragmatic than that.

Also, the caste system was abolished and discrimination based on caste is illegal. It still sometimes happens in the outlying areas and in small villages, but for the most part, it is no longer practiced especially in the cities.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:10 pm

Have I developed a fan-club already?

Answers on a Treasury Note, please. tongue
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:13 pm

Shirina wrote:
Birth control is not the cause of India’s abject poverty. The world’s second most populous nation wallows in an indigenous culture in which cows walk around alive while people starve. In my opinion, the caste system doesn’t help, either.
While there is a small religious sect that actually venerates cows (as well as other creatures) due to the Hindu belief in reincarnation, that is not the reason why cows are not widely consumed in India. The first and foremost reason is that India does not have a massive "Great Plains" region and cattle grazing is a very inefficient way to use arable land. Beef is far more expensive than grain to produce and it's highly perishable. Those in poverty would starve anyway because they could neither afford the cost of beef nor do many have refrigerators to store meat. Poverty in India is far and away worse than in the US. At least here, even the poor usually have standard appliances.

Another reason is that the rural poor have the same working relationship with cows as American "cowboys" had with their horses. In many respects cows keep them alive, providing everything from milk to using their dung as heating fuel and sources of light. They pull the plows that churn the soil, produce a lot of fertilizer to keep the soil fertile, and they even help form community bonds as individual farmers arrange deals with each other to have their cows mate (most people only have one or two cows).

It's a long-standing Western myth that Indians starve because they worship cows, but the Indian people are much more pragmatic than that.

Also, the caste system was abolished and discrimination based on caste is illegal. It still sometimes happens in the outlying areas and in small villages, but for the most part, it is no longer practiced especially in the cities.

I’m sorry, but as I view India from afar, I don’t see the “path” from pragmatism to daily bread for all the people of India. If it doesn’t work, it’s broke, so something is broke in India.

I know three men; one visited China after WWII, one visited Calcutta in 1988, and one visited an urban suburb of Mumbai in, I believe, 2002. By first person testimony, children were starving in post WWII China; on subsequent visits in the 1970s and 1980s, my friend saw well-nourished children. By first person testimony, children and adults were starving to death in Calcutta in 1988 and in suburban Mumbai in 2002.

The world’s most populous nation solved its starvation problem. How and why? The world’s second most populous nation hosts starvation today. How and why?

The caste system survives in the minds and hearts of Indians in the United States. I know this by personal experience. I suspect that the caste system survives amongst Indians in the US because the caste system survives amongst Indians in India. How and why?
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:38 pm

Have I developed a fan-club already?

Your verbosity attracts flies. Very Happy

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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Shirina on Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:13 pm

I’m sorry, but as I view India from afar, I don’t see the “path” from pragmatism to daily bread for all the people of India. If it doesn’t work, it’s broke, so something is broke in India.
I agree, something is broke. Why do you think I was eager to leave? My only point is that the broken "thing" in India isn't because there is a billion-strong cow-worshiping religious sect there. India, believe it or not, is the world's largest beef exporter, even larger than the USA, which could, in fact, be part of what is broken. Instead of feeding the people at home, the food is leaving the country to make better profits in wealthier markets. But, as I said, many of the impoverished in India have no refrigerators to store beef ... or any other type of meat.
The world’s most populous nation solved its starvation problem. How and why?
For one thing, China's climate and terrain is much more suited to farming than is India's sub-tropical and tropical climate. No tropical area all along the equator is particularly good for large-scale cereal crops. But if you look at the news in the last year, over 20 million Chinese are faced with starvation due to food shortages. Granted some of that is due to natural disasters, but yet it shows you how close to the edge these people are. America suffers droughts and disasters to its food-producing regions, as well, but no one here literally starves because of them. I wouldn't say that China has solved their problems of food. What a lot of people don't know is that India has the largest middle class in the world, even more than America ... but with a billion people, well, even with just over 300 million, the richest nation on earth cannot provide for all of its citizens. India can do far less.
The caste system survives in the minds and hearts of Indians in the United States. I know this by personal experience. I suspect that the caste system survives amongst Indians in the US because the caste system survives amongst Indians in India. How and why?
India's caste system was abolished in 1950 which means change has not really sunk in yet. As I said before, the caste system is all but non-existent in the cities. It is only in the rural areas where change is slow. I'm sure you can appreciate that, for it is the same here in the States. The rural regions of America are equally as slow to keep up with the law, even laws enforced by the Constitution itself. Consider that, even though slavery was abolished in America with the signing of surrender documents by Robert E. Lee in Appomattox, Virginia in 1865, the black population was still forced to live in their own caste for another century.

Even as we speak, there are bitter fights between the lower and upper castes in rural India, and they look just like the civil rights battles you have personally seen in the 1960's here in the American south. The only real difference is that the feuds are about birthright rather than race, but both are equally immutable and unchangeable. Who your parents are is just as much an inherent part of who you are as the color of your skin. And, just like the old days of the American south, it is the upper castes resisting the change. The masters always wish to keep control of those beneath them, but change will inevitably come. If the Land of the Free still oppressed the black man for nearly 100 years since the end of slavery, one cannot expect India to end centuries of caste oppression in half that time.

I suppose the reason why some Indians here in the US still practice the caste system is, quite simply, because they can. In India, members of the lower castes receive preferential treatment such as guaranteed college admission and reserved government jobs -- think of Indian Affirmative Action -- but if you're of a higher caste you certainly don't want that, so why not come to the US where no such laws exist, where having a self-imposed caste system is not illegal?

Keep in mind that I was born and partially raised in India. My mother and her family still lives there and I continue to visit on a regular basis. I see a lot of this with my own eyes, especially considering I was born into a lower caste rank -- not "untouchable" thankfully, but certainly not the top. Getting rid of that horrid system is something I have been actively involved in, at least until this neuropathy hit. Now I have to fight for my own survival.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:42 pm

Shirina wrote:
India, believe it or not, is the world's largest beef exporter, even larger than the USA, which could, in fact, be part of what is broken. Instead of feeding the people at home, the food is leaving the country to make better profits in wealthier markets.
Key Exporters

United States: U.S. beef exports are forecast to be 272,000 tons in 2005…

Brazil: … a forecast 1.6 million tons in beef exports in 2005…

Australia: Australian beef exports are forecast to remain at 1.3 million tons in 2005…

India: India’s beef and carabeef (buffalo meat) exports are forecast at 625,000 tons in 2005…

New Zealand: New Zealand beef exports are forecast at 605,000 tons in 2005…

Canada: In 2005, beef… exports are expected to rise 6 percent to 570,000 tons…

http://www.fas.usda.gov/dlp2/circular/2004/04-10LP/beefoverview.html

India, according to these statistics, was not at the top in 2005. It appears that India was number three, behind two heavyweights, Brazil and Australia, while edging out two more heavyweights, New Zealand and Canada, and completely outdistancing Texas, uh, the United States.

What stands out is that every other nation on this list, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the US, manages to feed its people, more or less. Taking a city from each country, there are no reports of mass starving in the streets of Salvador da Bahia, Adelaide, Auckland, Vancouver, or Chicago, so it appears that your analysis is correct.

Is it possible that, in the seven years since 2005, India has overtaken Brazil and Australia?
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:09 pm

Any Country with a balance of payments problem will deny its citizens the best quality produce so that it can earn foreign currency by exporting.

Enlightened developed countries have various laws that make it illegal to import endangered goods like teak and ivory, but then have to help to provide alternative ways for locals to earn a living.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Shirina on Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:30 am

Is it possible that, in the seven years since 2005, India has overtaken Brazil and Australia?

No, that was my mistake ... I meant to say third largest beef exporter. I hate when I leave words out like that. Sad

This year, India will displace the United States as the world's third largest beef exporter, behind Brazil and Australia. In just the first half of 2012, India exported $1.24 billion worth of meat, and a 30 percent growth in revenue from 2010 exports is projected by the end of the year, according to a U.S. Beef Export Federation study.



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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by snowyflake on Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:49 am

How can you be outside of nothing ?

Tosh: Can there ever be complete 'nothingness'? What was the singularity 'in' or what did it expand 'into'?

Rock: I am all for the freedom of believing what you like. I am against religious groups getting tax exemption, making business empires, getting special funding from governments to run indoctrination centres and calling them 'schools'. I am against the wealth owned by religions while people starve, go uneducated, have no access to clean water, decent healthcare. So when I hear that CAtholic Charities sent a plane to mexico, that's all well and good but it is drop in the ocean of what religions could do to make the world a better place for everyone, not just their own respective converts.

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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:29 am

Tosh: Can there ever be complete 'nothingness'? What was the singularity 'in' or what did it expand 'into'?

I am not sure we are equipped to conceptualize a condition outwith " space ".
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:03 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Can there ever be complete 'nothingness'? What was the singularity 'in' or what did it expand 'into'?

Snowy

Apparently you and I suffer the same disability; neither of us has the ability to conceive “nothing.” This is precisely why statements equating science with “sense” are erroneous, since the most basal science, the “natural of natural” science, that branch of physics that investigates the origin of everything.

Big Bang is nonsense. Why? Big Bang posits the nonsensical. The fact that all data collected and analyzed consistently points to Big Bang as the origin of existence does not make it make sense, it just makes it true, even though this truth, the foundation of everything, is nonsensical, and thus nonsense.

The singularity is described as a point. Given that a point has no dimensions, how can infinite mass-energy occupy a point? Given that a point has our dimensional coordinates, a location in three dimensions of space at a certain time, how can a point exist prior to the existence of space-time?

Scientific inquiry has finally led mankind into acknowledging the eternal truth of nonsense.

snowyflake wrote:
Rock: I am all for the freedom of believing what you like. I am against religious groups getting tax exemption, making business empires, getting special funding from governments to run indoctrination centres and calling them 'schools'. I am against the wealth owned by religions while people starve, go uneducated, have no access to clean water, decent healthcare. So when I hear that CAtholic Charities sent a plane to mexico, that's all well and good but it is drop in the ocean of what religions could do to make the world a better place for everyone, not just their own respective converts.

Starting at the back end, Catholic Charities administers no religious test to those who receive aid therefrom. Had there been such a test, there would have been no donations from me from 1985 through 1994.

A drop in the ocean is about all that Catholic Charities can do. A story told to me relates the tale of a young boy walking on a beach covered with starfish who saw an old man picking up starfish and throwing them into the ocean. The boy asks the man what the man was doing. The man said that, during the night, an unusually intense storm had stranded the starfish on the beach, and that he was doing what he could to put them back where they belonged.

The boy said, “But sir, there must be millions of starfish on the beach. You can’t save them all.”

The man replied, “I can save this one”, as he tossed one starfish back into the ocean.

Each one that Catholic Charities saved in 1985 was a precious human soul saved.

You’ve identified one religious organization, the Vatican, which ought not to receive government protection for its self-serving wealth. I agree. If you specifically identify others, I can tell you whether I agree or disagree.

For reasons previously mentioned, I do not lump Catholic Charities in with the Vatican. Had the Vatican chosen to donate to Catholic Charities prior to 1994, Catholic Charities would have used those donations just as it used my donations and the Reform Jew’s donations. The problem was and is not the Vatican’s donations to Catholic Charities; the problem was and is the inability of Catholic Charities’ volunteer staff to prevent local dioceses, with the Vatican’s consent, from sucking up funds from Catholic Charities to pay off civil court settlements awarded to victims of pedophiles who were shielded for decades by local dioceses and the Vatican.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:25 pm

[quote][quote]
The singularity is described as a point.

A point in space-time.

Given that a point has no dimensions, how can infinite mass-energy occupy a point?

It has dimensions, it exists in space time.

Given that a point has our dimensional coordinates, a location in three dimensions of space at a certain time, how can a point exist prior to the existence of space-time?

It did not exist prior to space time.

The singularity and space time came into existence simultaneously, or if you prefer, the point and its location came from nothing and from nowhere at the same time.

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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:27 pm

Stronger on religion than on Geometry.

In geometry based on the work of Euclid, it is true that things like "point" and "line" are not given a precise definition. (He starts with a list of "postulates"--- rules describing how the notions of "line" and "point," however defined, must interact with one another--- and deduces consequences from these.)

Maybe this is the moment to expand on that, Tosh. You know you want to.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by snowyflake on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:17 pm

Starting at the back end, Catholic Charities administers no religious test to those who receive aid therefrom. Had there been such a test, there would have been no donations from me from 1985 through 1994.

Then why associate itself with Catholics in the first place. Why not be Humanist Aid or, Humanist Charities? Why affiliate with a religion?

I like your starfish story and it is a good point, Rock. We must all do what we can to help others without imposing our own personal religious (or non-religious), political (or non-political) beliefs on them. If you love people, just help them...don't have an agenda.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:18 pm

Aid with no strings. Which Country subscribes to that? Nemo dat, as the lawyers like to say.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:13 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Starting at the back end, Catholic Charities administers no religious test to those who receive aid therefrom. Had there been such a test, there would have been no donations from me from 1985 through 1994.
Then why associate itself with Catholics in the first place. Why not be Humanist Aid or, Humanist Charities? Why affiliate with a religion?

Snowy, your misunderstanding is in the possessive pronoun “itself; in my view, “themselves” more accurately describes Catholic Charities. Since “they”, the volunteers who comprise Catholic Charities as I experienced them, are for the most part Roman Catholics, I suppose that’s why they’ve so named their organization. I remember that, the name notwithstanding, anyone who had a heart was free to join their cause. If memory serves from nearly two decades distance, there’s no religious test for volunteers.

snowyflake wrote:
I like your starfish story and it is a good point, Rock. We must all do what we can to help others without imposing our own personal religious (or non-religious), political (or non-political) beliefs on them. If you love people, just help them...don't have an agenda.

You give me too much credit. I heard the story awhile back, and it has motivated me to do what I can without unduly focusing upon what I cannot do.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:33 pm

In geometry based on the work of Euclid, it is true that things like "point" and "line" are not given a precise definition. (He starts with a list of "postulates"--- rules describing how the notions of "line" and "point," however defined, must interact with one another--- and deduces consequences from these.)

Maybe this is the moment to expand on that, Tosh.

I will be glad to, what is your point, it is a tad vague ?
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:18 am

"....what is your point...."

It's the way 'e tells em !! Laughing
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:20 am

It's the way 'e tells em !!

Yep.

* takes a bow *





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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:34 pm

Little victories are very important to little men.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:07 pm

Little victories are very important to little men..

Is that a famous quote by " Napoleon ".
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by bobby on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:57 am

From tiny Acorns do Mighty Oak Tree's grow.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:09 pm

From tiny Acorns do Mighty Oak Tree's grow..

Okay ? Question
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by boatlady on Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:37 pm

bit pointless, this thread - you're all just using it to insult each other
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by boatlady on Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:44 pm

maybe you could just send each other offensive personal messages
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:48 pm

Intelligent discourse between intelligent debaters is not always easy to maintain, boatlady. As you will have noticed, the lowest common denominator tends to dominate.

But just look at the title of the thread - the poor thing never had a chance, born with a name like that.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by boatlady on Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:31 pm

very true - mind, I was hoping for an interesting debate nevertheless, what with all the talk about the evils of theocracy elsewhere on the forum
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:24 pm


Back on topic, no. Moreover, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United States cannot do so without acting contrary to their own laws, and given the fact that the United Kingdom is signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UK cannot do so without acting contrary to its own commitment.

1.
Australian Constitution, Chapter 5, Section 116

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

2.
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Fundamental Freedoms

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

(a) freedom of conscience and religion;

(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;

(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and

(d) freedom of association.

3.
New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990, Democratic and civil rights

13 Freedom of thought, conscience, and religion
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, and belief, including the right to adopt and to hold opinions without interference.

15 Manifestation of religion and belief
Every person has the right to manifest that person's religion or belief in worship, observance, practice, or teaching, either individually or in community with others, and either in public or in private.

4.
United States Constitution, Amendment 1

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

5a.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

5b.
Adoption, Universal Declaration of Human Rights

The Universal Declaration was adopted by the General Assembly on 10 December 1948 by a vote of 48 in favour, 0 against, with 8 abstentions…

The following countries voted in favour of the Declaration: Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Burma, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Liberia, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Thailand, Sweden, Syria, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights


Last edited by RockOnBrother on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by polyglide on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:25 pm

The quesion assumes that religions are all lies.

The fact is that that is not the belief of the vast majority of the population of the world.

There are numerous religions and those that conflict in any way with each other cannot all be right.

Many religions have been originated for manipulation in one way or another
of that there is no doubt.

However, the seek and ye shall find policy, when adopted will sort the wheat from the chaff.

There is more good work done in the name of Christianity than any other religion, I am also aware it has been misused on accasions but that is not the fault of the religion but those who abuse it.

The biggest fault is proclaiming to be a Christian country and acting like savages.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:39 pm

It is not the position of governments to get involved in people's personal philosophies unless those philosophies involve harm to oneself or others.

I do not object to their chartable status as long as they comply with charity regulation, publc sector faith schools is an obvious no no, I would prefer my taxes not being used to pay for some crazed Imam preaching my destruction.

I know its selfish but what the heck.

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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:25 am

There are numerous religions and those that conflict in any way with each other cannot all be right.
All religions can't be right, but all religions CAN be wrong.

Since there is no reason to believe that Religion A is any more true than Religion B, I'm going to pick answer C: None of the above.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:51 am

polyglide wrote:
The quesion assumes that religions are all lies.

“It don’t matter none truth or lie.” The thread title question presumes governments’ authority to “rescind the noble lie of religions”, an authority prohibited by law to the governments of (in alphabetical order) Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United States. When the underlying presumption is false, as it is in this case, any contemplated actions based upon that false presumption are exercises in fantasy.

Quoted mantra from Curtis Mayfield’s poem/song, linked below, with a slight alteration to “fit the bill.”

Mighty Mighty - The Impressions
http://www.youtube.com/v/u7Rdr22dBPE

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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by snowyflake on Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:12 am

Hi Rock Smile

You are right that governments you name, under their various constitutions and declarations, allow for the freedom of religion. So the thread title is a bit ambiguous in its intent. What governments should never do is allow special interest groups with religious agendas to influence legislation based on their own personal belief system. Christians can lobby for prayer in schools, teaching creationism or ID along side science, preventing gay marriage as is their right in a democratic society but no government should allow them to influence legislation based on the religious groups own personal religious beliefs. Religious beliefs have no place in a secular government because they discount the religious beliefs of others. And in a democracy, I like to think it is inclusive not exclusive. The idea of the 'majority' vote is fine for deciding who is president, prime minister etc. but it is not fine when we are discussing the rights of the disabled, homosexuals, the elderly, unplanned pregnancy etc.

Hope you are well. Is it still hot in Texas? We are well into fall here and the leaves are turning at the speed of light and it is bloody cold! Smile
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:32 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Hi Rock Smile

Hope you are well. Is it still hot in Texas? We are well into fall here and the leaves are turning at the speed of light and it is bloody cold! Smile

Hey Snowy,

We’re good as can be expected. When in Texas, if you don’t like the weather, wait a minute. Yesterday the high was 85 F (29 C) at around 2:00 PM. It dropped to 60 F (16 C) by 6:00 PM, with a low of 52 F (11 C) and a high today of 55 F (13 C) so far. Ain’t nobody complaining!

I was watching “Rick Steves’ Europe” on PBS recently. He was gallivanting around Spain. Seems like an interesting country.

Y’all are in my prayers; I especially pray for that brisket in the slow cook smoker, asking whatever gods may be that someone doesn’t get impatient when it’s not done in an hour and a half. Remember, slow as she goes, overnight or more.

snowyflake wrote:
You are right that governments you name, under their various constitutions and declarations, allow for the freedom of religion. What governments should never do is allow special interest groups with religious agendas to influence legislation based on their own personal belief system. Christians can lobby for prayer in schools, teaching creationism or ID along side science, preventing gay marriage as is their right in a democratic society but no government should allow them to influence legislation based on the religious groups own personal religious beliefs.

There is no substantive difference between lobbyists insofar as their claims to not-for-profit status. Not all entities that do not operate for the purpose of generating profits are not-for-profit entities. Take, for example, the huge socialist agency known as the United States Navy; it doesn’t generate a profit, but it’s not a not-for-profit agency.

Lobbying entities fall within this category, no matter for whom and what they lobby; thus, as non-not-for-profit entities, they should not enjoy tax-exempt status. The US Navy is tax exempt because it’s a tax consumer rather than a tax contributor; in fact, the Navy sucks up dollars like a huge vacuum cleaner. For instance, each Nimitz-class CVN costs megabucks to build and operate.

What ought to happen is that religious establishments, agencies, organizations, congregations, and the like should enjoy that “wall of separation” that Ol’ Tommy talked about in the early 19th century. But if such an entity engages in lobbying, that portion of its activities that are so engaged should lose its tax exemption. But only that portion; “gub’mint” ought to keep its greedy hands out of the rest of the pot.

snowyflake wrote:
Religious beliefs have no place in a secular government because they discount the religious beliefs of others. And in a democracy, I like to think it is inclusive not exclusive. The idea of the 'majority' vote is fine for deciding who is president, prime minister etc. but it is not fine when we are discussing the rights of the disabled, homosexuals, the elderly, unplanned pregnancy etc.

Neither the four governments I’ve mentioned nor the UK government are secular governments; conversely, all are governments under God. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms actually mentions the key idea underlying government under God; by referring to the supremacy of God, Canada affirms that “certain unalienable rights”, being “endowed” unto “all men” by “their Creator”, cannot rightfully be disparaged by any man, council of men, or governments instituted among men. Conversely, “governments are instituted among men” rightfully for one primary purpose, to “secure these rights” endowed unto all men by a power higher than any man. The democracy is not the goal; it is the means by which the goal is to be achieved.

That’s why some things “ain’t none of the democracy’s biz-ness.” That’s also why I despise any democracy that disparages the unalienable right to free exercise of religion. That includes dictating to folks with what manner of attire they must clothe themselves; some democracies that do that ought to check and see (1) that they signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and (2) to what they committed themselves when they signed. A nation’s word ought to be its bond.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:55 pm

"That’s why some things “ain’t none of the democracy’s biz-ness.” That’s also why I despise any democracy that disparages the unalienable right to free exercise of religion. That includes dictating to folks with what manner of attire they must clothe themselves; some democracies that do that ought to check and see (1) that they signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and (2) to what they committed themselves when they signed. A nation’s word ought to be its bond."

A not infrequent human characteristic is to require higher standards from others than one applies to oneself. The lofty ideals expounded in the above quotation allow no room for pragmatism.

"Free exercise of religion" is a high-minded phrase that meets with the approval of those who extol "Freedom of Speech." Fault lines in such simplistic desiderata arise immediately someone uses the freedom argument to foment Racism or discrimination against a minority. A religion which involved, e.g. Human Sacrifice would make a nonsense of absolute freedom of worship.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Tosh on Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:28 pm

I am not sure absolute freedom of speech ever existed, I believe a social group of humans with language could not function if bearing false witness was the norm. I cannot imagine how reciprocal lying could possibly be a practical survival tool. I believe we left Africa with the knowledge that we are not free to lie, and free speech has always had practical restrictions to protect our well being.

Noone should have the right to threaten another person or group, it is a criminal offence, just like libel and slander.

Religion is just politics/philosophy with a supernatural twist, anyone is free to express their religion but with the proviso it must be legal.

I would include in the proviso it must also be true, but it seems religion is free to tell lies, no wonder they are anti-social toward each other.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

Post by Guest on Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:16 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
That’s why some things “ain’t none of the democracy’s biz-ness.” That’s also why I despise any democracy that disparages the unalienable right to free exercise of religion. That includes dictating to folks with what manner of attire they must clothe themselves; some democracies that do that ought to check and see (1) that they signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and (2) to what they committed themselves when they signed. A nation’s word ought to be its bond.
oftenwrong wrote:
The lofty ideals expounded in the above quotation allow no room for pragmatism.

Incorrect.

oftenwrong wrote:
A religion which involved, e.g. Human Sacrifice would make a nonsense of absolute freedom of worship.

A statement which equates “Human Sacrifice” to “dictating to folks with what manner of attire they must clothe themselves” is a nonsensical statement.
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Re: Should governments rescind the noble lie of religions?

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