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The politics of envy and its causes

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The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Tosh on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

I believe there is a direct parallel between the religious and left wing socialists, both think they own the rights to concepts such as social conscience and morality. It comes from an almost self righteous belief that they have a monopoly on compassion, empathy and altruism.

Since none of them have a clue about the facts of welfare or its intended purpose, I can only assume their hysterical opposition has an alternative psychological explanation, and this ulterior motive surrounds status.

In my opinion they hate the Tories more than they love the poor, in fact I think the poor is simply a smokescreen to hide their real contentions and intentions.

There is a condition called inverted snobbery:

a person who scorns the conventions or attitudes of his own class or social group by attempting to identify with people of a supposedly lower class.
This condition is a form of pretence, they pretend to represent the attitudes of the underclass, and yet know nothing about their attitudes. They distort words like working class to mean the poor and unfortunate to afford themselves VICTIM status.

Victim status then justifies their attacks on their real enemy, those with higher status than themselves, it is basically the politics of envy, its got nothing to do with altruism but everything to do with self status or self interest.
The underclass( the real poor and unfortunate) have accepted nature/nurture reasons for their lowly status, but for failed status seekers in a meritocracy there is no excuse.

Rather than just be honest and accept the high status of others affects their self status in a negative way, they hijack the real poor's victim status to justify their opposition and this gives them a higher status. They use the poor like a battering ram against the rich, oblivious to the obvious fact most including themselves are in the middle.

I have come to this conclusion because none of the Tory bashers know what benefits the poor get, in fact one had the gall to ask for a link that proves a married couples unemployment benefit was £212 per fortnight and child tax credits for 2 kids was £106 per week ?

If I am wrong I am prepared to listen to other plausible explanations, but I am never wrong.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by willingsniper on Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:28 pm

What good will your pension do you if you are laid off to keep profits high?

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by tlttf on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:08 pm

Not sure about America WS but over here pensions are paid to those that have retired from work.

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by willingsniper on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:25 pm

Over here people lose their pensions when laid off.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by tlttf on Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Different Country, different rules I guess.

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by willingsniper on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:55 pm

Our country has nothing but contempt for the other guy
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:45 pm

Please read this blog of one of those wicked benefit scroungers who is “languishing in dependency”:-

http://mybagladylife.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Shirina on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:18 pm

Pensions in the UK are essentially what we call Social Security here in the US. Pensions here are paid out by the company whereas Social Security is paid out by the government, and ALL Americans are entitled to it once they retire. Since Social Security has nothing to do with the company you work for or retired from, you can't lose it even if the company is bad with its money or even goes bankrupt. VERY few companies actually pay out pensions anymore. These days, you have to plan and save for your retirement, which a lot of people can't afford to do.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by ROB on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:44 pm

Shirina wrote:
… Social Security is paid out by the government, and ALL Americans are entitled to it once they retire.

Not exactly. Social Security is paid out to those American workers (citizenship doesn’t matter) that pay into FICA and whose employers pay Social Security tax. Some employers do not participate in Social Security, including some of the largest employers in the US, so those workers are not covered by Social Security.

Social Security is not an entitlement; it’s an earned benefit. Anyone who has received and examined a “first-time-in-my-life-real-paycheck” and exclaimed, “Who is this FDIC dude who’s stealing my money?” knows that workers pay for Social Security, at least partially. Also, one must work a minimum number of quarters (I believe it’s quarters and not years) to become eligible for Social Security.

There is another benefit, called Supplemental Security Income, SSI, which is (a) non-dependent upon the worker paying that FICA character, and (b) non-dependent upon her/his employer paying Social Security tax. In all states of which I am aware, SSI comes with Medicaid (Medical in California) and automatic eligibility for a variety of federally-funded (90%), state provided social services.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:50 pm

OK. Now what is the value of a National Insurance Contribution when the time comes to draw your Pension?

A: It's whatever the government says it is, stupid!
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by willingsniper on Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:47 pm

willingsniper wrote:Our country has nothing but contempt for the other guy

I still stand by this. The right want to privatize SS, and any program that came from the new deal
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:55 am

Rents in London are grossly disproportionate to wages, and hence there are huge claims for housing benefit (or to give it its real name, subsidies for greedy landlords). 20% of people working in London are trying to live on poverty wages:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19948654

Meanwhile, UK food banks are being used by a record number of people, though no doubt the usual suspect will pop up and try to tell us that nobody is going hungry in the UK today. In order to receive emergency food, individuals must be referred by a frontline care professional such as a doctor, social worker or schools liaison officer:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19953938

I’m on the side of the working poor in London, disabled people who are losing their allowances, those who can’t work because there aren’t enough jobs and others who are starving and need charity to survive. If that amounts to this ‘politics of envy’ nonsense, then I’m guilty as charged.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:48 pm

I like to act as Devil's Advocate sometimes on an unpopular issue. The high cost of living in London is not a new phenomenon, and many companies have for dozens of years incorporated a "London weighting" into their staff salary-scales. There are also various schemes for helping essential staff like nurses and firemen etc. So if you're working in London it's not impossible to meet the eye-watering cost of living there.

But what about the unemployed who live in London? As Ivan points out, the amount of benefits having to be paid are disproportionate to a nation in recession. Those working in London obviously need to live within commuter distance, but long-term unemployed have no apparent need to be in London at all. So why aren't they bussed to somewhere else where it would be cheaper to live?
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:40 pm

The hypocrisy of the filthy rich

Extracts from an article by James Bloodworth:-

"There is no doubt of course that some of those fortunate enough to be wealthy are genuinely concerned with the plight of the poor. Another type among the super-rich, however – some would say the dominant type – is the wealthy individual who very publicly gives generously with one hand while ruthlessly seeking to minimise what they pay in tax with the other. The moralising hypocrite, you might call this lot. Nobody bats an eyelid today at a campaign against homelessness featuring a politician who would sooner sell his own mother than interfere in the exploitative buy-to-let market; or a coffee chain publicising its fair trade credentials while preventing its own workers from joining a union.

It is quite possible that we have the late Princess of Wales to thank for at least a portion of this fetishisation of charity above all other virtues. Her death at a young age saw the passing into folklore of the belief that her goodness was tied up to a large extent with the notion that she “did a lot for charity” – despite the fact that she left her entire estate to her own super-rich family.

It feels like all of this has been preparing the ground in some way for Cameron, with his belief that poverty is best left to wealthy individuals to remedy, rather than government. His ‘Big Society’ approach to social provision can perhaps best be summed up with the phrase: do it yourself, because we don’t care."


For the whole article:-
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/01/19/the-hypocrisy-of-the-filthy-rich/

If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim.” (Clement Attlee)
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:30 pm

It is quite possible that we have the late Princess of Wales to thank for at least a portion of this fetishisation of charity above all other virtues. Her death at a young age saw the passing into folklore of the belief that her goodness was tied up to a large extent with the notion that she “did a lot for charity” – despite the fact that she left her entire estate to her own super-rich family.
She left her estate to her 2 sons, as would most people. Her mother and sister were executors who obtained a court order to have it varied. While the most remained with the sons, others, including charities, benefitted. It's all in public record.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by blueturando on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:53 am

“If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim.” (Clement Attlee)

No that's Labours job

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:40 am

blueturando wrote:“If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim.” (Clement Attlee)

No that's Labours job

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:05 am

blueturando wrote:-
“If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money at a whim.” (Clement Attlee)

No that's Labours job
Here we go again. On 13 December, on another thread, you claimed (without any supporting evidence) that “the welfare system has gotten out of control”. You ignore the facts with which you were presented, preferring instead to just keep repeating the same tired old Tory lies. No

Myth: We’ve seen a constant increase in the level of spending on benefits.
Reality: In the decade prior to the recession, spending on benefits had shown the longest period of stability in the history of the welfare state.

Myth: We’ve seen an increasing number of people claiming out-of-work benefits.
Reality: Out-of-work benefit receipt has been in long-term decline and is half a million lower now than in the aftermath of the last recession.

For the details:-
http://www.turn2us.org.uk/pdf/Mythbusting.pdf

On average, between 2000 and 2010, welfare spending grew annually, in real terms, by 1.75% - compared to 5.5% in the 1950s and 1960s, and 3% in the 1980s (under Thatcher).

Benefit spending as a share of GDP fell during the first 11 years of the last Labour government. It only began to rise in 2008, after the financial crash, as hundreds of thousands of Britons found themselves out of work through no fault of their own.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/welfare-budget-10-things-they-dont-tell-you_b_2314578.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Phil Hornby on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:53 pm

It's no good thinking you can come on here with actual facts and upsetting the Tory bottom-patters and their jaundiced views of events.

They just don't like that sort of inconvenience.... Very Happy
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by blueturando on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:45 am

Sorry Ivan, but I believe stats spewed up be the likes of Medhi Hasan as much as you do on stats given by the Daily Mail


Britain's benefits bill will hit record levels this year – even though ministers claim they are restricting welfare.

More than £208billion in welfare payments will be funded by the taxpayer in 2012/13, according to an analysis by the House of Commons library.

It means that almost one pound in every three raised in tax will be spent on benefits.

The figures come a day after it emerged handouts for the unemployed have risen almost twice as fast as average wages over the past five years
The total eclipses the £205.6billion spent last year and far outstrips the £129.8billion spent when Labour took office in 1997/98.

The figures come a day after it was revealed that over the past five years, handouts for the unemployed have risen almost twice as fast as average wages.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256362/Benefits-hit-record-high-year-1-raised-tax-goes-welfare.html#ixzz2GxmFL5cN

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by boatlady on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:19 pm

Blue
One or two points occur, just off the top of my mind
1) I believe a significant part of the benefits bill is accounted for by state pension - hopefully, you wouldn't want to suggest making many old people destitute in order to save money?
2) A further significant portion of the benefit bill is paid to individuals in work, who cannot earn enough, due to low pay, to keep themselves and their families - again, I can't imagine you are suggesting that thousands of working families should become destitute, unable to keep a roof over their heads, and consequently the wage earner probably lose employment?
3) I believe that, currently, for every job vacancy, there are something like 48 unemployed people - are we going to say that the other 47 are 'surplus population' and send them to the camps?

Off the top of my head I don't have the statistics to cover these points, but will take the time to check with arguably more dependable sources than the Daily Mail, which has a reputation for distorting and misreporting figures to match a political agenda.
Perhaps it will be interesting to unpick the actual DWP numbers - when I get the chance I'll make the attempt.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:51 pm

blueturando wrote:-
Sorry Ivan, but I believe stats spewed up be the likes of Medhi Hasan as much as you do on stats given by the Daily Mail
The Tories must be really proud of you. You appear to have swallowed Osborne’s Nazi-style propaganda, and the distortions of ‘The Daily Mail’, hook, line and sinker. Do you check to see if the blinds are down in your neighbour’s house, just like Osborne asked you to do?

So you don’t like Ed Balls, you don’t believe anything that Owen Jones says, and now you don’t accept what Mehdi Hasan “spews up”. I’m beginning to notice a pattern here, namely that you just deny everything which doesn’t fit in with the Tory prejudices with which you’ve been brainwashed. And that’s in addition to your ‘vomit’ language, straight out of ‘The Daily Mail’. Your extract talks of “handouts” rather than “entitlements”, which is what they are for people who have paid National Insurance and then found themselves out of work because of the Tory hatred of public sector workers.

For a start – and as boatlady has suggested – the figures you quote for welfare payments appear to include the state retirement pension, because the welfare budget was £87.69 billion when this government came to power in 2010, bearing no resemblance to what ‘The Daily Mail’ claimed:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jun/02/liberal-conservative-coalition-welfare

The amount spent on the state retirement pension will go up every year because the rate is linked to inflation and because more people are reaching retirement age, in particular the ‘baby boomers’ of the post-WW2 years. It’s utterly dishonest of ‘The Daily Mail’ to include that in its figures for welfare benefits, just as it is to be as selective as Osborne in only comparing wages and benefits for the last five years.

It wasn’t Mehdi Hasan but economist Jonathan Portes, head of the National Institute for Economic and Social Research, who pointed out: "In 1979, unemployment benefit (the predecessor to Jobseekers' Allowance) was about 22% of average weekly earnings; today it's about 15%, a relative decline of about a third. What's going on? Simple: JSA has been indexed to inflation. In normal times, earnings rise faster than prices..."

Mehdi Hasan hasn’t told any lies, unlike Iain Duncan Smith, who never stops telling them, but I notice you don’t complain about him. The key point here is to distinguish between benefit spending figures presented in scary, ever-increasing cash terms, and those presented - much more accurately - as a percentage of a nation's GDP. The first source I used in my previous message has nothing whatsoever to do with Mehdi Hasan, and has been provided by a charity called Elizabeth Finn Care:-
http://www.turn2us.org.uk/pdf/Mythbusting.pdf

I’m not asking you to take Mehdi Hasan’s word for anything, try this independent source. As a share of the UK’s GDP, benefit expenditure has remained fairly steady since 1997, accounting for 11% in both 97/98 and in 09/10. Indeed prior to the recession, the share had fallen to 9%:-
http://fullfact.org/files/2011/03/Welfare_Reform_Bill_2R_Briefing.pdf

No doubt as a textbook Tory flat-earther, you’ll add ‘The Guardian’ to the list of sources you won’t ever believe, but the figures the paper uses come from the Office for National Statistics, not Mehdi Hasan. In 1997, the GDP of the UK was £830 billion. After 13 years of Labour government, during which the economy grew for eleven successive years, our GDP was £1,458 billion in 2010, 75.7% higher:-
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/total_spending_2012UKbn
Yet even on the dubiously-calculated ‘Daily Mail’ figures, the growth in “handouts” was only 58.4%, far less than the growth in GDP and further proof that the welfare system has not, as you claimed “gotten out of control”.


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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by skwalker1964 on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:30 pm

Ivan wrote:
No doubt as a textbook Tory flat-earther, you’ll add ‘The Guardian’ to the list of sources you won’t ever believe, but the figures the paper uses come from the Office for National Statistics, not Mehdi Hasan. In 1997, the GDP of the UK was £830 billion. After 13 years of Labour government, during which the economy grew for eleven successive years, our GDP was £1,458 billion in 2010, 75.7% higher:-
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/total_spending_2012UKbn
Yet even on the dubiously-calculated ‘Daily Mail’ figures, the growth in “handouts” was only 58.4%, far less than the growth in GDP and further proof that the welfare system has not, as you claimed “gotten out of control”.

Great post! Here's something you might like:



[PLEASE DELETE IMAGE IF QUOTING THIS MESSAGE!] Smile
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:36 pm

Is Britain a tax credit haven?

Iain Duncan Smith claimed: “Tax credit payments rose by some 58% ahead of the 2005 general election, and in the two years prior to the 2010 election, spending increased by about 20%.”

Channel 4 Fact Check asked the Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which administers work and child tax credits, how much has been paid out since the current system started under Labour in 2003 (before that it was the Working Families Tax Credit). It said that in 2003-04, £16.4 billion was paid, and the following year – the one that included the general election to which Mr Duncan Smith refers – £17.7 billion.

That’s an increase of 8%, not 58%.

And in 2008-9, the HMRC said, some £25.1 billion was paid in tax credits. In the following year, it was £27.3 billion. Which means that in the two years prior to the 2010 general election, spending on tax credits increased by 8.8%, not 20%.

Duncan Smith also said: “Between 2003 and 2010, Labour spent a staggering £171 billion on tax credits, contributing to a 60% rise in the welfare bill.”

The total amount spent on tax credits, from 2003-04 to 2010-11, was £175.636 billion, according to HMRC. But because that includes the first year of this Tory-dominated government, Channel 4 took the last year – 2010-11 – off, during which £28.542 billion was spent. That meant that under Labour, from when the scheme started to their last year in government, £147 billion was spent, not £171 billion.

Then Duncan Smith said: “It will come as no surprise therefore that fraudsters from around the world targeted this benefit for personal gain.”

When Channel 4 asked HMRC how many non-UK nationals were responsible for tax credit fraud, it said: “The tax credit system doesn’t record nationalities of claimants, so we don’t have those figures.”

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-ids-tax-credit-claims-discredited/12160
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:12 pm

Or to put it in a nutshell : Iain Duncan Smith - like so many of his colleagues -is no more than a lying bastard...


Last edited by Phil Hornby on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by boatlady on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:18 pm

Another point about Tax Credits that will impact on any statistics relating to overpayments will be the way entitlement is allocated and reviewed. The fact that people's incomes and circumstances over the year period will fluctuate means that most recipients are either on track to having an overpayment or on track to having an underpayment, if that makes sense to any of you.
Thus, at any point a 'snapshot' is taken of the system to look at overpayments etc, there will always be shown a significant sum either actually or potentially overpaid, which is in fact known about and is due either to administrative error, delays in reporting, incompetence or possible fraud. Just one of the disadvantages to disguising a welfare benefit as a tax break.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:11 pm

‘The politics of envy’ is one of many tiresome and brainless remarks that is repeated parrot fashion by Tories whenever someone makes a reasonable observation about the gross injustices we are supposed to put up with in silence. According to the cerebrally challenged who make that comment, pointing out gross and socially damaging inequality is just 'being envious'.

It’s a phrase that's trotted out every time there's a proposal that inconveniences the rich. It’s a meaningless but spiteful soundbite employed by wealthy people who don't want to pay their share, even though they can well afford to do so. You can be a multimillionaire who never gives anything to anyone, and whenever someone suggests you might be adding to the world's problems, you clear your conscience by accusing them of being jealous.

Yet it never seems to be ‘the politics of envy’ when Tories are attacking council employees for allegedly having better pensions than similar workers. Why is it only ‘the politics of envy’ when wealth is being redistributed to those less well off? When the rich are taking what little the poor have, that’s fair game, is it? I'd call that ‘the politics of cruelty’ if I was pathetic enough to rely on soundbites.

When, according to Oxfam, the UK has returned to Dickensian levels of inequality, why is it ‘the politics of envy’ when wealth is distributed to those less well off? Isn’t it ‘the politics of justice’ to redress ‘the politics of greed’? If you’re not sure why inequality matters, not because of ‘envy’ but because of the damage it does to a society, please read this thread:-
http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t709-does-inequality-matter

As I posted on Twitter, I am guilty of 'the politics of envy'. I don't envy people with big cars and several homes, but I envy societies which are fairer than ours.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Shirina on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:06 pm

I don't envy people with big cars and several homes, but I envy societies which are fairer than ours.
At least you don't have to envy the United States.

Study finds US has second worst wealth inequality in the world.

A new study---buried by the media---has found the United States second only to Switzerland in the disparity between the net worth of its top 10% and everyone else. The report follows a recent study that found that America’s wealthiest top 1% earned the highest share of the national income since the 1920’s. Only Switzerland exceeded America in its extent of skewed wealth distribution.

It was not that long ago that Americans would look at countries in South America or Asia and decry the vast disparities in wealth between the rich and everyone else. These nations were seen as politically controlled by a wealthy elite, who enriched themselves at the expense of the poor and middle-class. Based on the study, America now fits this category.

Obama has taken a lot of flak over the last four years, being called "the food stamp president" by political lampoonists on the right. Of course, this is coming from the same group of people who have, twice, raided gun stores and caused shortages of ammunition due to their abject fears of Obama's planned destruction of the United States - so what can you expect but lorry loads of stupidity.

The real culprit for the record numbers of people on welfare is Big Business, Small Business, Wall Street, and the corporate culture in general. The government has virtually nothing to do with this despite the "barbarian yalps" belched from the right about too much regulation and uncertainty about the future. That's just a big smoke screen put in place to blind the American public from realizing that, even though there is a slow but steady recovery, things aren't really getting better for anyone but the top.

You see, businesses and corporations have hit upon a capital idea: Subsidize wages with welfare. Instead of a business paying its workers a wage high enough to be financially independent, it pays its workers just enough to cover what welfare will not.

Think of it this way: Let's say that the market value of a low wage job is $15.00 per hour. Theoretically, this wage is enough to be financially independent. You won't live well, but you'll live. Now let's say that the amount of government assistance one can receive per month amounts to $7.00 per hour. This would include food stamps, utility payments, health care, housing allotments, and the like. A business could pay its workers the full $15.00 per hour, the actual value of their job, but why do that when this money comes directly from profits? Instead, the business subtracts the $7.00 per hour one could earn in government benefits from the $15.00 per hour value of the job and instead pays the worker $8.00 an hour. Not only does this save the company a ton of money, it is perfectly legal since the minimum wage is $7.15 per hour. In fact, the business will even advertise open positions as paying a "competitive wage" because it pays above minimum wage. Now applicants to the position actually think they're getting a good deal.

Factoring in welfare payouts as part of a worker's salary when determining how much to pay an employee is precisely why so many Americans are on government assistance programs these days. On an $8.00 per hour wage, one would be forced to seek government help to stay afloat, something the business has already concluded. The numbers I preseented here are "made up," of course, because I don't know the exact amount of welfare payouts and how it translates to dollars per hour, but it is an example of how it's done. As long as the final adjusted wage offered by the business does not fall below the federally required minimum wage, a business can eviscerate as much of an employee's wage as it wishes knowing there's always welfare to fall back on to keep the employees from going hungry or being evicted. Granted, business can only take this subsidization so far. It only works for unskilled or semi-skilled workers, for instance, and because the welfare payout is finite, there comes a point where the market value of a job is so high that subtracting the welfare payout will still grant an employee a wage too high to qualify for welfare benefits.

But this little trick, I believe, is why so many Americans are turning to the government for assistance despite economic booms and record profits for many businesses - large and small alike. Obama is not "the food stamp president." Instead, this business model is "the food stamp business model." Those right-wingers who are utterly clueless and still nipping at the heels of propagandists like Limbaugh and O'Reilly will try to claim it's Obama's fault, the workers' fault, the unions' fault, hell, they'd blame it on aliens from Zeta Reticuli before they will lay the blame where it belongs - a corporate culture growing fat on short term profits that enrich shareholders and leaves a huge swathe of Americans standing in line at the welfare office.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by tlttf on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:37 pm

I think that seems to happen in every "democratic society" Shirina. Western governments appear to have forgotten that they're mean to work for the indigenous people and are too tied up to there sponsors "Global Enterprises" to care once they gain power.

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:26 pm

Arguing against human nature is unlikely to yield any startling improvements.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:13 pm

My personal favourite from today's crop of quotations from Twitter ....

It’s only called class war when poor people attack the excesses of the rich, not when the rich attack the poor.

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t319p30-favourite-tweets

Which reminds me that The Evening Standard on Friday contained an equally apposite comment: "A Class Warrior differs from a Racist only in the respect that the people he hates look the same as he does."
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:50 am

Mansion tax: It always seems to work out that taxing the rich is pointless, doesn’t it?

Extracts from an article by Mark Steel:-

The reason, it turns out, we can’t have this Labour proposal of a mansion tax on homes worth over £2m, is that it would cost too much to calculate. George Osborne has said: “It’s very costly to implement. You have to send inspectors round the country valuing all homes, not just those worth over £2m.” I suppose that’s right, though in some areas it shouldn’t take all that long.

Luckily, it must be far simpler to go round the house of everyone who’s on benefits, and work out if they have a room that isn’t slept in every night, and if so force them to move to somewhere smaller. This means the bedroom tax can be implemented, and that’s bound to raise far more money than the odd shilling that can be afforded by people like Roman Abramovich.

In any case, as one columnist insisted, a mansion tax is simply ‘the politics of envy’. So if you feel that the cuts to libraries, services, parks and the disabled ought to be balanced by a tax on the wealthiest, not only are you economically stupid, you’re committing one of the deadly sins.

It was the same when slaves complained about slavery, or medieval peasants moaned about starving in a ditch while the baron had a nightly banquet, just envy, envy, envy – and where does that get you? That’s why the money has to come from the poor, as taking it off them can’t be envy, because no one envies them.


For the full article:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mansion-tax-it-always-seems-to-work-out-that-taxing-the-rich-is-pointless-doesnt-it-8501455.html
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by skwalker1964 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:30 pm

Just like the 50p top rate, which apparently generated 'next to nothing', but was really £3bn - and even by Tory low-ball estimates was around £500m.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:36 pm

The reason, it turns out, we can’t have this Labour proposal of a mansion tax on homes worth over £2m, is that it would cost too much to calculate. George Osborne has said: “It’s very costly to implement. You have to send inspectors round the country valuing all homes, not just those worth over £2m.”

How much would it cost to add an extra band onto the top level of Council Tax?
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by tlttf on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:37 pm

The Mansion Tax is simply a political ball being slapped about by the 2 pointless socialist wannabes waiting in the wing for the present pointless socialist wannabes to move over and let them have a bash.

If you want to be fair and truly make those that gain the greatest benefits from owning multi-properties and estates simply drop council/poll tax which hurts the poor much more than the rich and introduce a "Landtax". Those that have the most land will naturally have to pay more whether they have buildings on them or not. Absent home owners that don't have to pay council tax will still have to pay whether the property sits empty for years or not. This should encourage the absent owners to bring the homes upto spec and rent them out. Works for me!

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by skwalker1964 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:56 pm

tlttf wrote:If you want to be fair and truly make those that gain the greatest benefits from owning multi-properties and estates simply drop council/poll tax which hurts the poor much more than the rich and introduce a "Landtax". Those that have the most land will naturally have to pay more whether they have buildings on them or not. Absent home owners that don't have to pay council tax will still have to pay whether the property sits empty for years or not. This should encourage the absent owners to bring the homes upto spec and rent them out. Works for me!

You know, tlttf, that's an idea worth some consideration. Even if it did come from Adam Smith originally lol. Suspect the multi-millionaires living in apartments worth a fortune but dividing the land up among all the various floors of residents might be a spanner in the works as far as fairness goes, but then they're usually dodging their council tax anyway.

I reserve the right to have a eureka moment and see a major flaw once I've thought it through, but at first glance it's an interesting idea.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:07 pm

"but at first glance it's an interesting idea."

Corks! tlttf must be having an off-day...! Very Happy
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:57 pm

Oddly, one area of activity which generates envy is the receipt by former public servants of what has traditionally been a reasonably generous pension (although this is changing rapidly).

The envy comes from many of the Tory persuasion whose deepest desire is to ensure that few - aside of themselves - ever receive anything at all from anywhere. Despite the fact that most of the public servants 'traded' lower paid employment for a decent pension provision- and in most cases contributed to that provision- it is the custom of the Tory to pretend to a gullible public that no such contrbuition was ever made and that the eventual benefits are much higher than they actually are.

It's strange the way that envy can work - in this case by those who tend to have the most, against those who customarily have the least. But then. the perverted Tory mind is such that - were it possible- slavery would be alive and well and they would still send kids up chimneys.

Those Tory fans are, indeed, a sick element of our daily lives... Shocked
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Ivan on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:05 pm

Phil. Rest assured that tlttf has not had “an interesting idea”, but it’s refreshing that he’s at least latched on to something from a paper other than ‘The Daily Mail’ or ‘The Daily Telegraph’ for once. However, anyone who is crackpot enough to describe Cameron and his fellow criminals as “socialist” destroys his own credibility in an instant.

George Monbiot wrote about the advantages of a land value tax in ‘The Guardian’ on 22 January:-

“It stops the speculative land hoarding that prevents homes from being built. It ensures that the most valuable real estate – in city centres – is developed first, discouraging urban sprawl. It prevents speculative property bubbles, of the kind that have recently trashed the economies of Ireland, Spain and other nations, and that make rents and first homes so hard to afford. Because it does not affect the supply of land (they stopped making it some time ago), it cannot cause the rents that people must pay to the landlords to be raised. It is easy to calculate and hard to avoid: you can't hide your land in London in a secret account in the Cayman Islands. And it could probably discharge the entire deficit.”

For more discussion about a land value tax:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/01/whats-justification-land-value-tax
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:10 pm

There I go - the victim of my innocent and generous nature again ...! Very Happy
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by tlttf on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:18 am

My apologies to Ivan for joining his club "Not an interesting original thought ever". I didn't claim the idea myself, couldn't remember where I'd seen it, simply thought it was an excellent way of distributing tax fairly hence I posted my "bastardised version" of the idea. Weird how certain individuals would rather shoot the messenger than look at the message. Still, such is life and it's one of the reasons I fear should the quasi-socialists in waiting regain any power.

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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:23 am

tlttf wrote:
My apologies… for joining [the] club "Not an interesting original thought ever"…

You mean like you did as you “shot from the hip” with this masterpiece of disinteresting wastage?

tlttf, Monday, 18 February 2013 at 06:57
http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t575p150-to-hate-jews-is-to-hate-god#34468
on To hate Jews is to hate God in Religion And Related Issues

… unfortunately… some simply come back with quotes and videos made by others, not one original thought goes into them yet some (on here) seem to assume that because a video has been recorded it must be the truth. Strange world we live in?

Perhaps you’ll soon stand for club president.
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Re: The politics of envy and its causes

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