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Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

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Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:55 pm

I think this fits equally well in UK politics and here, but I know the moderators like us to spread things around a bit Smile. As usual, please see the original post at http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/should-labour-take-britain-out-of-europe/ for the links to sources etc.

Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

A couple of weeks ago, Labour voted with Tory rebels to pass a motion demanding a cut in Britain’s contribution to the EU budget, after David Cameron had indicated that he’d love to achieve a cut but would accept a freeze. The move drew criticism from some commentators (and naturally from ministers of the defeated government) that instinctively Europhile Labour had acted cynically and tactically in order to inflict a defeat on Cameron.

Well, it’s Labour’s job to do everything it can to oppose, impede, weaken and hasten the end of what is the most radically right-wing and ideologically ambitious government in my lifetime, outstripping even Thatcher in her zeal to dismantle the state and impose an ‘everyone for himself’ regime on this country. It’s also worth noting that, in signalling in advance what he was prepared to accept, Cameron showed himself to be a very poor negotiator – but then, he still applauds himself for his December 2011 ‘veto‘ of an EU treaty intended to shore up the Euro, which went ahead anyway. So it’s fairly obvious that, for all his posturing and tough talk, Cameron isn’t really fit for a seat at the table with the big-hitters anyway.

It’s also right when, for all its futility, British people are under the cosh of a massive austerity drive, that the level of Britain’s spending on EU funding should be cut as well. So while Labour will certainly have rubbed its collective hands at the prospect of defeating this lamentable government, it could enjoy it in the knowledge that it was also doing the right thing.

However, I believe that the whole matter has flushed out another question that is far more important, in the long term – one which I’ve heard little or no comment on in the couple of weeks since the defeat. And it’s one that might surprise many, and shock some:

Should Labour bring Britain out of the EU?

Before I probe further into that question, let me clarify that I’m an instinctive Europhile. I’ve spent most of my working life travelling to most of Europe, and I speak several European languages. I’m at home pretty much anywhere, love the variety of scenery, architecture, language, culture and outlook, and enjoy – for the most part – the various differences that typify the people of each nation. So it’s fairly momentous for me to even seriously pose the question, let alone consider that the answer might be a positive one.

A bit of history

It may seem hard to imagine now, but until the era of Kinnock as leader, Labour’s left was fairly unanimously anti-EU – or anti-EEC (European Economic Community) as it was then, because Left-wingers considered the EEC a dangerous opportunity for capitalism to take a group of nations in a vice-grip. From Kinnock onwards, the prevailing view shifted to one in which a strong Europe could act as a bulwark against the worst excesses of Thatcherism/Reaganism, and the Left became generally pro-European. But things change, and there’s nothing intrinsically left-wing or Labour about being in favour of EU-membership – it’s just the usual Labour position now.

If you want more information on this, you could do worse than to listen this episode of BBC Radio 4′s ‘Analysis’ programme, ‘Labour, the Left and Europe’.

The whys and wherefores

As well as being instinctively pro-European out of experience, I also recognise the various pros of EU-membership: tariff-free access to a wide geographical market, the right of free movement, closer co-operation among nations that have historically fought each other on a regular basis, and so on. Certainly not insubstantial positives, and recognised by the recent decision to award the Nobel Peace Prize to the EU (although this kind of involved forgetting the horrors of the Balkan conflict).

Valuable factors, and not to be given up lightly. But recent developments within the EU, surrounding but not entirely because of, the ‘Euro crisis’, have me very concerned. I’ve written on several occasions about how neo-liberals will exploit crisis in order to push through economic ‘structural’ measures that are designed to enrich the ‘elite’ while inflicting ‘planned misery’ on the many.

And not merely exploit – governments and even supposedly neutral and benevolent agencies such as the World Bank and the IMF have pretended crises and even deliberately engineered them, in order to achieve political and ideological aims that were unattainable when the populace perceived economies as being essentially stable.

Crisis as an excuse

So, be wary of assuming what you hear is true when the news channels and IMF/EU/World Bank officials describe the ‘crises’ in Greece and other nations. The crisis has primarily been in the banking system and its greed, rather than in the conduct by governments of their economies, and yet the ordinary people of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy (and, so far to a lesser extent, the UK) have been hammered by austerity measures while the bankers still get fat on bonuses.

And the power-brokers are not finished yet. Europe’s political and financial leaders - supposedly – need to address the currency and banking crisis in the Euro-zone, yet the measures that they are planning to impose mainly touch on the general populace. The OECD report ‘Going for Growth 2012‘ recommends two structural reforms for the banking sector (increasing the capital reserve requirement and enhancing regulation – alongside at least 26 reforms that target the general population, including:

- Making it easier and less expensive to sack workers
- Increasing retirement ages and pension contributions
- Reducing wages and protections for part-time workers
- Removing energy price-controls
- Removing tax exemptions for lower earners to ‘broaden the tax base’
- Reducing overtime pay rates
- Reducing unemployment benefits
- Increasing direct taxation such as VAT
- Accelerated privatisation of public assets

and many more. The report aims these measures at Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy for now, but as Europe moves closer toward banking and fiscal union, these will become standard measures across the EU. Any right-thinking person already knows that ordinary people are paying the price for the excesses and misdeeds of bankers who continue to get richer while the rest struggle to stay afloat – but the plan is for more, not less, of the same.

Club Rules

Membership of the EU creates another long-term problem. The solution for to a shortfall in tax revenue is not to cut spending, which sucks money out of the economy, prolonging and intensifying recession and taking cash out of everyone’s pocket – including the small businesses that the Tories claim to love. No, the solution is to increase revenue – changing tax rates where necessary but primarily by improving enforcement of taxes on the big companies that can afford all the clever ways of avoiding paying their proper contribution to the societies in which they operate.

Earlier this week, senior executives of Google, Amazon and Starbucks were torn to shreds by a Parliamentary select committee over their failure to pay taxes on business transacted in the UK. Their justifications for doing so ranged from thin to pathetic – yet EU trade law does not allow one country to tax income declared for taxation in another EU country or to prevent a company from setting up its affairs to incur a lower tax rate in a different country. So, as long as these and other companies are careful to set up their tax affairs according to the relevant laws, a UK government is effectively powerless to force companies to pay tax on their earnings on business even when it involves UK goods, stored in a UK warehouse, shipped by UK staff and paid for by a UK resident.

Put together the tax situation and the prevailing acceptance that austerity is the only medicine, and it’s clear that Britain faces a situation in which, once again, the EU is transforming into a huge playground for companies to make huge profits while the ordinary populace is squeezed dry and has little freedom to elect governments that will not bow to the transnational, IMF- and World Bank-inspired consensus that ‘restructuring’ (the removal of protections and safety nets for ordinary citizens) is the only imaginable route to travel.

The Tories agree with these measures and attitudes for the most part, while perversely wishing the UK out of Europe out of jingoistic nationalism and small-mindedness. But ordinary people, without necessarily realising it, sense that the EU is becoming a vehicle for potential and actual oppression in many ways. UKIP are a joke of bombast and small-mindedness, but their relative rise in the polls can be attributed to their tapping into this sense of unease, even though the rest of their politics yearns for the kind of measures that are the reason for it. So the risk is that the Tories and UKIP win favour and credibility for holding a position for all the wrong reasons, while Labour, with better motives and a far better narrative to tell if it chooses, loses the votes of ordinary, oppressed people.

I’m now starting to believe – reluctantly – that the time has come for Labour to take a lead and seize the initiative on continued membership of the EU, and to put forward the real and justified reasons why Britain should exit: to own that position in the eyes of the electorate and to take a stance in which its recent vote for a cut in contribution makes perfect, consistent sense.

Creating a consensus for a new way of perceiving and acting in a single state is going to be tough enough – even though most UK people are desperately longing for leaders with the vision and courage to propose one. By remaining in the European Union, Britain faces being shackled to a tall, deep wall of neoliberal agreement on misguided austerity policies that will impoverish many and enrich a few, and to tax policies and rules that will impede any attempts by this country to implement creative ways to redress the injustice of corporate tax avoidance..

Outside the EU, a Labour government would have the freedom to create whatever tax laws it wishes, and to construct them so that tax on UK-transacted sales must be paid into the UK treasury, no matter which tax haven companies choose to report the income in. This would reduce or even remove any need for austerity – and would be massively popular politically as a bonus.

Europe is no longer a bulwark against the US-inspired neo-liberal policies of low taxation, no-regulation free-for-all, but is rapidly becoming a stronghold of them. Because of this, Labour needs to be bold and declare its desire – and a perfectly-justified one – to take the UK out of Europe, so that it can be held at arms-length while we construct something better. If we succeed, then we can be the example that countries behind the austerity-curtain rally around and follow, bringing an end at last to the economic oppression that is being forced on us.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:41 pm

Repeated regurgitation of the debate on Britain's membership of the EU is the equivalent of a gardener digging up his plants to see if they're growing properly.

The reality is that greed and self-interest always colour debate on the subject, and since most people can't even remember much back beyond last Thursday, opinions centre on how things look today. Our Victorian ancestors built the British Empire to last forever, but Politicians and Economists alike blow hot and cold about the European Community with every movement of currency exchange rates.

However and whenever a public referendum takes place, the outcome will probably hinge on how much money people have in their pocket on that day.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:54 pm

Unless some political leaders have the vision and courage to paint a compelling case, you're right. I hope for better without expecting it.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:33 pm

I am a Europhile, but I am also a realist and I accept that there are more people who are Euro sceptics than there are people who have similar views to mine.

I would be against Labour taking a Euro sceptical standpoint for several reasons, not least because I personaly believe that we would be worse off, but also because the Labour Party would be ridiculed and accused of changing direction more times than the wind.

One other reason why I feel it would be a retrograde step - there are lots of small and middle sized businesses out there that do good business with Europe, these people are mostly middle class people who tend to be floating voters, sometimes Tory and sometimes Labour, the Labour Party cannot get elected without middle England.

The Labour Party needs to remain a broad Church but without losing sight of its basic values and principles, it needs to win over the hard working people of both the middle and working classes.

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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:32 pm

A story runs about the discovery of roast pork by chance about three-thousand years ago, when the hut of a chinese peasant caught fire incinerating amongst other possessions the family pig. Upon sifting through the ashes, the unfortunate peasant noticed a surprisingly agreeable aroma surrounding the little corpse, and further - upon licking his fingers - a particularly satisfying flavour. He was able to sell portions of this to his neighbours and earn enough to reconstruct his hovel.

That primitive chinese peasant set fire to his home three more times before someone suggested an alternative way of cooking pork, and for similar reasons someone needs to explain to those of a UKIP tendency that there may be easier ways of achieving a satisfactory Union without starting a bonfire of all the treaties.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:22 pm

Labour would never do anything as popular as take Britain out of Europe. I know Milliband has been doing some hand wringing of late telling us how wrong the previous Labour government were to ignore the electorate over the EU and particularly immigration but it's all hot air. As the GE gets ever closer we will see more and more politicians from the Labour benches becoming more eurosceptic. Most of them will play to the audience until after the GE, at which point it will be business as usual. Manna from heaven for Farage and UKIP.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:29 pm

If you intend to suggest that all Politicians are either corrupt or incompetent, you may find there is general agreement on that.
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Miliband rules out EU referendum.

Post by Red Rackham on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:37 am

Mr Miliband said that promising an in/out referendum on the UK's position in the EU is the “last thing we should do”.

Bearing in mind a referendum is exactly what the majority of the electorate do want, is Milliband handing the next election to the Tories?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/9798489/Ed-Miliband-no-referendum-on-Britains-membership-of-the-EU.html
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Redflag on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:34 pm

Red Rackham wrote:Mr Miliband said that promising an in/out referendum on the UK's position in the EU is the “last thing we should do”.

Bearing in mind a referendum is exactly what the majority of the electorate do want, is Milliband handing the next election to the Tories?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/9798489/Ed-Miliband-no-referendum-on-Britains-membership-of-the-EU.html

I think he was right the most important thing is work and letting people earn enough money to feed and clothe and put a roof over the heads of there families, I watched that interview and it seems the tories want to know what will Labour party have in there Manifesto so why don't they publish there Manifesto or come to that tell every party your Manifesto has to be published 2 years & 4 months ahead of the 2015 general election. I suppose that is so the Tories can get a look at what everybody else will be promising the voters and want an UNFAIR advantage, which suggest to me they are running scared or know that they will be out on the ear come 2015.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:27 pm

There are two certainties about the British Electorate's response to a Referendum.

(1) Everyone not in business will choose to separate from the EU.

(2) If asked, there would be a clear majority for restoring the Death Penalty.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:57 pm

Red Rackham wrote:Mr Miliband said that promising an in/out referendum on the UK's position in the EU is the “last thing we should do”.

Bearing in mind a referendum is exactly what the majority of the electorate do want, is Milliband handing the next election to the Tories?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/9798489/Ed-Miliband-no-referendum-on-Britains-membership-of-the-EU.html

It all depends on how important the issue is to people. Surveys indicate that while most people would currently vote 'out', it's way down most people's list in terms of importance to how they'd actually vote for a government. Unless you're in UKIP or a die-hard 'colonel'-type Tory, in which case you're never going to vote for EM anyway.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by boatlady on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:21 pm

A referendum, it seems to me, is a very blunt instrument indeed, and I would never support having one on any issue, because I think you get the worst of both worlds that way.
On the big questions, I'm quite clear that very often Mr and Mrs everyone really don't have the knowledge and experience to make valid choices.
Political parties will put their own case, citing the statistics and 'facts' that tend to support their position, leaving the issue even more confused, and at the end of the day a majority vote succeeds on the basis of what position produces the best soundbites and slogans, with very little reference to the reality.
I guess it's the draw back to democracy as a whole (as it's practised in the West) and maybe as a country we need to think about evolving different and better ways of reaching decisions - more consensus than majority.
I think we need a better model for choosing leaders (that we can then trust) and then let them get on with making those big decisions.
We definitely don't need the breed of 'professional' politicians that seem to be springing up these days.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Frances Fox on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:07 pm

The Lib/Lab/Con will never take Britain out of the EU otherwise they would have done it long ago. They keep telling us it is good for business but we import more from them than they import from us. As for Cameron getting changes he ought to remember what happened when John Major tried to establish an "Merchant Shipping Act" to help our fishermen and Britain was forced by the EU to compensate Spain by fining Britain £100m which British Taxpayers paid up. What got to me was that John Major afterwards signed the Maastricht Treaty. The fact is that they cannot change the treaties because of the other member countries. Even today right from the EEC days dead fish are thrown back in the sea.

I would like our country to get out of the EU but the Lib/Lab/Con parties are "THE ENEMY WITHIN" Frances Fox
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:55 am

Conventionally in Parliament, those holding a contrary view are referred to as "The Opposition". Not "THE ENEMY".

Though perhaps that is the correct description for those who wish to cast Britain's economy back into the 1950s.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by jackthelad on Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:42 pm

Why can't the people have their say, aren't we as intelligent as politicians, as i see it most of us want to trade with Europe but not to be ruled by Europe. We had a referendum to join what was known has the Common Market, it is a different kettle of fish now, with Brussels making the laws. We the British public never signed up for that, and we should be allowed to voice our opinions in a ballot on Europe. I am afraid the politicians know they have gone too far signing things over and know what the result of the ballot will be. I voted against the Common Market and I will vote against staying in Europe on these present terms. I don't think Edward Heath envisaged this when he signed us up to the Common Market.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:41 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/cameron-delays-europe-speech-amid-algeria-crisis-18240424

Phew! That was close!
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by boatlady on Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:32 am

So, he gets to avoid making a tit of himself this week
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:14 am

boatlady wrote:So, he gets to avoid making a tit of himself this week

But not to avoid being one. Smile
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:34 am

Does anybody believe that any of the 3 parties have the slightest intention of taking GB out of Europe, lib/dems are totally linked, the tories are so middle England now and Labour have proven that they want more integration even if it means cheating. Scrap parliament and vote for independent mp's that have their constituents at heart, have a parliament full of them and let them then vote for a Prime minister who would be beholden to no particular sect, who has been voted in by the majority of mp's who could also call him to task should he seek his own agenda. Do this and you return parliament to the voters, we could then remove ourselves from the (club) EU and realign ourselves with the world. Simple really.

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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:10 pm

tlttf wrote:-
Scrap parliament and vote for independent mp's that have their constituents at heart, have a parliament full of them and let them then vote for a Prime minister who would be beholden to no particular sect, who has been voted in by the majority of mp's who could also call him to task should he seek his own agenda. Do this and you return parliament to the voters
This thread is about whether Labour should commit to leaving the EU, not your superficial thoughts about democracy. First you say you want to “scrap Parliament” and then you tell us that you want to fill it up with different MPs!

Independent candidates for Parliament rarely get anywhere because they’re just asking voters for a blank cheque. And why is a person who calls themselves ‘independent’ likely to have any more integrity than anyone else? Maybe they just want to join the gravy train like the others!

Have you thought through what would happen if there were 650 independent MPs? Any bills could only be passed into law if a majority voted them through, and before long, like-minded groups would emerge to get their policies implemented. And hey presto, you have ‘parties’ once again – right-wing ones for the greedy, selfish and callous, and left-wing ones for those who believe in fairness and have a social conscience.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:53 pm

It is the notion of 'parties' which is the problem with politics, in my estimation.

Because of the Parliamentary 'whipping' system ,they do not allow for the flexibility which would be more desirable in voting on the variety of issues upon which Parliament decides. There is a wide spectrum of views in society and it is entirely artificial for them to be grouped tightly in 'party packaging'. Consequently, there is always likely to be disagreement to a degree within the existing party arrangements, whereby individuals can feel their true views and instincts are far removed from the 'party line' which is enforced.

Naturally, groups will emerge when policies are being formed and voted upon, but those groups need not be cohesive in all circumstances and for all purposes. Parties may provide a handy way of organising the dissemination of information and the articulation of political philosophy, but they also bedevil a sensible approach to important issues and encourage a tribal mentality which does not ultimately serve the nation well. The same difficulties can also feature in religion whereby - to cite but one example- there is a divide created between Roman Catholics and Protestants in circumstances where - purely as fellow humans- members of each could co-exist quite harmoniously if they ignore the 'label' each has been given.

We may have a better world if we lost the descriptive tags we have imposed upon ourselves and saw each other as having a common interest in improving the human condition.

All this does not include Tories, of course... Very Happy
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by jackthelad on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:23 pm

Listened to Question Time last night, they were talking about Europe and us being in it, whether we should have a referendum or not. The leader of UKip seemed to me the only one talking with any sense, he got the greatest applause. I have always voted labour, think it is time I changed my vote, UKip seems to represent what I want at this moment in time.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:33 pm

Do we want to imagine what a UKIP Government would be like? It would quickly become a collection of the nonentities which currently inhabit the party , supplemented by an unattractive bunch of right-wing Tories who had deserted the sinking ship and finally found their true home. Faced with any sort of international crisis affecting Britain, the UKIP Cabinet would be found rushing round bumping into each other, seeing who could stick their heads up their respective backsides the quickest. Apart from all that, it should be fine.... Shocked
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:46 pm

Redflag wrote:
Red Rackham wrote:Mr Miliband said that promising an in/out referendum on the UK's position in the EU is the “last thing we should do”.

Bearing in mind a referendum is exactly what the majority of the electorate do want, is Milliband handing the next election to the Tories?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/9798489/Ed-Miliband-no-referendum-on-Britains-membership-of-the-EU.html

I think he was right the most important thing is work and letting people earn enough money to feed and clothe and put a roof over the heads of there families, I watched that interview and it seems the tories want to know what will Labour party have in there Manifesto so why don't they publish there Manifesto or come to that tell every party your Manifesto has to be published 2 years & 4 months ahead of the 2015 general election. I suppose that is so the Tories can get a look at what everybody else will be promising the voters and want an UNFAIR advantage, which suggest to me they are running scared or know that they will be out on the ear come 2015.

Hello Redflag. Yes I agree looking after your family is important particularly in these austere (For some) times. A task that may be made easier if our infrastructure was not at breaking point due to hundreds of thousands of immigrants putting a lot of pressure on housing, schools, policing and the NHS. Next year Romania and Bulgaria will have free access to the UK, and the following year 72 million muslims from Turkey will have the same right. It seems the only people in all of this who do not have a say and are routinely ignored are the people who are picking up the tab, the British tax payer.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:53 pm

Anyone who thinks UKIP may form a government (In the near future at any rate) is dreaming. In my experience people don't vote UKIP because they want Farage in number 10, they vote UKIP to put pressure on Cameron to give us the referendum we richly deserve. A tactic that is working quite well.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:44 pm

jackthelad wrote:Listened to Question Time last night, they were talking about Europe and us being in it, whether we should have a referendum or not. The leader of UKip seemed to me the only one talking with any sense, he got the greatest applause. I have always voted labour, think it is time I changed my vote, UKip seems to represent what I want at this moment in time.

I suspect Farage got applause because he's completely shameless about appealing to people's basest instincts, Lincolnshire is very rural and is a right-wing heartland, and the audience (apart from a couple of notable exceptions like the young man with the red tie who challenged Farage-mania) seemed pretty dense.

If you listen to him carefully, I think you'll never switch from Labour to UKIP. He majors on Europe and immigration for cheap approval, but the rest of his policies are way to the right of even the right wing of the Tory party - stripping employment/health and safety protections totally etc. Farage is positioning his party to appeal to people's fear even more than the Tories do, and UKIP's recent good performances in by-elections have largely been achieved by eating the BNP vote.

Is that really a party you want to give your vote to, whatever its leader says about a couple of 'easy' issues?
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:48 pm

Red Rackham wrote:

Hello Redflag. Yes I agree looking after your family is important particularly in these austere (For some) times. A task that may be made easier if our infrastructure was not at breaking point due to hundreds of thousands of immigrants putting a lot of pressure on housing, schools, policing and the NHS. Next year Romania and Bulgaria will have free access to the UK, and the following year 72 million muslims from Turkey will have the same right. It seems the only people in all of this who do not have a say and are routinely ignored are the people who are picking up the tab, the British tax payer.[/quote]

Of course we shouldn't have untrammelled immigration, but the idea that our services are at breaking point because of immigration is simply not true. They're at breaking point because they're being starved of cash by overt and covert means implemented by this government. Immigrants are a convenient scapegoat.

The reality is that we need immigration. It should be controlled, and it should be moderately selective, but with our declining birthrate and ageing population, if we don't attract immigrants the ratio of working population to retirees is potentially going to be untenable.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:54 pm

I was a fully paid up card carrying member of the Labour party for most of my life (I'm 53 yo btw) Yet I voted Tory (For the first time) at the last election and I have been a member of UKIP for the past two years.

I will vote for anyone who gets us out of this unnecessary, unwanted (By the ignored majority) and undemocratic €U.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:14 pm

Still stalking me then Ivan, my apologies for not following your party line and daring to have original thoughts.

Steve, of course the infrastructure is straining due to immigration. When you talk of the government starving it of cash, please remember it's my cash they hold and it doesn't appear by magic but by me (and all other workers) paying cash.

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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:22 pm

tlttf wrote:Still stalking me then Ivan, my apologies for not following your party line and daring to have original thoughts.

Steve, of course the infrastructure is straining due to immigration. When you talk of the government starving it of cash, please remember it's my cash they hold and it doesn't appear by magic but by me (and all other workers) paying cash.

It's not your cash in any meaningul sense, mate - any more than your rent money's yours (if you rent). It's the cost of living in the UK - and it's worth a bit extra to live somewhere that's not a dump full of destitute people.

As for immigrants - judging by BBC Question Time last night, only 0.6% of European immigrants use the NHS or take benefits. The vast majority are here to work, do so, and pay tax - which brings the cost of 'rent' down for the rest of us.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:22 pm

skwalker1964 wrote:

Of course we shouldn't have untrammelled immigration, but the idea that our services are at breaking point because of immigration is simply not true. They're at breaking point because they're being starved of cash by overt and covert means implemented by this government. Immigrants are a convenient scapegoat.

The reality is that we need immigration. It should be controlled, and it should be moderately selective, but with our declining birthrate and ageing population, if we don't attract immigrants the ratio of working population to retirees is potentially going to be untenable.

I tire of this...

Cheif Constables have said they are struggling to cope with 'Immigrant crime waves' A head teacher in Birmingham said children at her school speak thirty different languages and teachers have had to devise a system of hand signals to communicate with them. Last year more than 50% of babies born in London were born to Immigrant mothers, and (In spite of Millibands rhetoric) Immigration 'is' reducing jobs for British workers.

Our infrastructure, housing, schools, hospitals etc, was barely capable of servicing the number of people it was designed for, however it is not capable of servicing hundreds of thousands of immigrants as well, a fact that now must surely be obvious to even the most left wing €urophile.

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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:27 pm

Red Rackham wrote:I was a fully paid up card carrying member of the Labour party for most of my life (I'm 53 yo btw) Yet I voted Tory (For the first time) at the last election and I have been a member of UKIP for the past two years.

I will vote for anyone who gets us out of this unnecessary, unwanted (By the ignored majority) and undemocratic €U.

The problem with single-issue politics is all the other issues that get slipped through with the 'main' one. The EU is not the root cause of the UK's problems, whatever its faults - but people who think it is will end up voting in people who aim to do all kinds of undesirable things, but campaign on one popularist issue in order to achieve their real ends.

It's just like in the US, where lots of ordinary people vote for a party that aims to impoverish them, just because of the abortion issue. For the Republicans, it's an easy vote-winner - and they only care about babies until they're actually born. After that, they can starve or go feral if it means paying a realistic tax rate.

Farage wants the UK isolated from other nations in order to get away with a load of stuff that the European Court of Human Rights would never allow - just like his ideological brethren on the Tory right fringe.

Don't be fooled by the single-issue, lowest-denominator approach, mate!
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by tlttf on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:28 pm

Be careful Red Rackham, the powers don't always like reality being written on this board and the censorship wand starts to be waved. Though if you finish off with "It's all Thatchers fault", they may leave you alone. Very Happy

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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:29 pm

Personally, I don't think that sensible voters are likely to be swayed by the blandishments of UKIP, whose main appeal is to that most basic of human instincts, "ME FIRST!" In any case, whilst Cameron is running scared of the Farage farrago, Socialists probably don't need to be.


Last edited by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by skwalker1964 on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:30 pm

[quote="Red Rackham"]
skwalker1964 wrote:
I tire of this...

Cheif Constables have said they are struggling to cope with 'Immigrant crime waves' A head teacher in Birmingham said children at her school speak thirty different languages and teachers have had to devise a system of hand signals to communicate with them. Last year more than 50% of babies born in London were born to Immigrant mothers, and (In spite of Millibands rhetoric) Immigration 'is' reducing jobs for British workers.

Our infrastructure, housing, schools, hospitals etc, was barely capable of servicing the number of people it was designed for, however it is not capable of servicing hundreds of thousands of immigrants as well, a fact that now must surely be obvious to even the most left wing €urophile.

What does speaking the language really have to do with anything? It's just xenophobia. Nobody said we should allow foreign criminals in, and those that get through and offend here should be deported. But we don't need fewer immigrants, just a few more controls on who comes in.

As for 'left wing europhile', in case you didn't notice I started this thread by suggesting that Labour should probably be aiming to bring the UK out of the EU..
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:31 pm

A Tory MP Speaks Out

(bbc.co.uk)

" The nation's problems are entirely as a result of those horrible immigrants which have tainted the nation..."
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:33 pm

skwalker1964 wrote:
Red Rackham wrote:I was a fully paid up card carrying member of the Labour party for most of my life (I'm 53 yo btw) Yet I voted Tory (For the first time) at the last election and I have been a member of UKIP for the past two years.

I will vote for anyone who gets us out of this unnecessary, unwanted (By the ignored majority) and undemocratic €U.

The problem with single-issue politics is all the other issues that get slipped through with the 'main' one. The EU is not the root cause of the UK's problems, whatever its faults - but people who think it is will end up voting in people who aim to do all kinds of undesirable things, but campaign on one popularist issue in order to achieve their real ends.

It's just like in the US, where lots of ordinary people vote for a party that aims to impoverish them, just because of the abortion issue. For the Republicans, it's an easy vote-winner - and they only care about babies until they're actually born. After that, they can starve or go feral if it means paying a realistic tax rate.

Farage wants the UK isolated from other nations in order to get away with a load of stuff that the European Court of Human Rights would never allow - just like his ideological brethren on the Tory right fringe.

Don't be fooled by the single-issue, lowest-denominator approach, mate!

I am not being fooled by anyone. I want a vote, a referendum on the EU, and unlike the EU I would be prepared to accept the outcome of that referendum.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:36 pm

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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:43 pm

[quote="skwalker1964"]
Red Rackham wrote:
skwalker1964 wrote:
I tire of this...

Cheif Constables have said they are struggling to cope with 'Immigrant crime waves' A head teacher in Birmingham said children at her school speak thirty different languages and teachers have had to devise a system of hand signals to communicate with them. Last year more than 50% of babies born in London were born to Immigrant mothers, and (In spite of Millibands rhetoric) Immigration 'is' reducing jobs for British workers.

Our infrastructure, housing, schools, hospitals etc, was barely capable of servicing the number of people it was designed for, however it is not capable of servicing hundreds of thousands of immigrants as well, a fact that now must surely be obvious to even the most left wing €urophile.

What does speaking the language really have to do with anything? It's just xenophobia.

What! you cant be serious for Christs sake?

The head teacher I spoke of was not speaking fondly of having a school full of kids who speak thirty different languages, she was at her wits end. Because it was a junior school there was no extra funding for language teachers. Can you imagine what it must be like trying to teach 7 to 10 year olds who you cant communicate with? would you want your children to go to a school like that? and these days there are are a lot of them around.
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Re: Should Labour take Britain out of Europe?

Post by Red Rackham on Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:48 pm

tlttf wrote:Be careful Red Rackham, the powers don't always like reality being written on this board and the censorship wand starts to be waved. Though if you finish off with "It's all Thatchers fault", they may leave you alone. Very Happy

...and btw, it's all Thatchers fault.

Smile
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