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The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

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The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by skwalker1964 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:50 am

Original, including links, is at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Please also take my own poll, designed to offer a fair range of response choices, which is at the end of this post.

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The Conservative Party website has a poll, purportedly asking the public whether we agree with their plans to cut and cap benefits. Great - politicians listening at last!

Well, not quite. It turns out that the 'poll' consists of two questions, each of which makes those questions you see after a game or talent show look like the Office of National Statistics. You know the ones:

Which of these people was among the first to land on the moon?

A) Buzz Aldrin
B) Buzz Lightyear
C) Dot Cotton
(Calls will cost £1.50/min from a landline but from mobiles may cost considerably more)


Those quizzes are designed to sucker the gullible into calling by making the answer so easy and obvious that anyone can get it and call in - with the aim of maximising profit.

The Tory quiz is even worse, in its way. It's a classic example of the kind of leading questions that would be death to the reputation of any decent polling or statistics organisation, and which are clearly designed to ensure that the only people who actually vote are those who are stupid enough to have already fallen for the Tories' demonising, divisive tactics.

Here's the section from their site (please don't try to complete the survey on this page!):

Have Your Say on Benefits
We’re interested in what your think about benefits. That’s why we’re asking you whether or not you support two fundamental principles upon which our welfare policies are founded – many will say they don’t but many will also be in favour. Your responses will tell us what the majority think.Please also leave your comments.

Should benefits increase more than wages?
Yes
No

Do you think it’s fair that people can claim more in benefits that the average family earns through going to work?
Yes
No

(In case they decide to change the questions or take the page down and pretend it never existed, I've saved a copy of it on Freezepage here)

Do you see what they're doing? It's vile without being very subtle. By framing each question as a yes/no, binary choice, and wording the question so that only a 'no' answer is viable, they're pre-deciding the results as well as pre-selecting the kind of people who'll actually choose to answer. It's shamefully dishonest.

Let's imagine the debate was about capital punishment, and I wanted to be able to report a big vote in favour of it. To use an extreme example, I might phrase my own question like this:

Do you think that murderers should:

A) Be executed?
B) Do 6 weeks' community service?


Nobody is going to say that a short community service sentence is adequate punishment for a murderer - which doesn't mean that you agree with capital punishment. But the 'poll' doesn't give you any other option. You might believe a life-sentence should mean life, or that 15 years is adequate, or 25, or whatever else. There are all kinds of other possible opinions, potentially as valid as the one I'd be trying to steer you towards, or more so.

But you can't vote any of those. So most people either choose execution, or don't bother answering. I'm then able to report that 95% of people believe that murderers should be executed. Assuming, of course, that I have no scruples.

Right answers to the Tories' questions could include 'None of the above', or 'Most benefit claimants are working people!', or 'No, it's not right, but that's because working people should be paid more too', or 'wages AND benefits should be rising at least in line with inflation', or many others. Or 'Cap rents, not benefits' - that's a very appropriate response, too.

But you only get to put that kind of response in the comments section, which won't affect the response stats, and only after you've answered both of the Tories' loaded questions. If you give the answers to those that they want, they'll trumpet them. If you don't, you provide them with fodder for a campaign saying 'Lefties flood our questionnaire and think skivers should get more than strivers!', or something similar, and the clarifying comments will never see the light of day.

Because the truth of the matter is that we're all getting ripped off by the Tory-led coalition - except for the tiny, wealthy minority - and the solutions have nothing to do with demonising and further impoverishing those who are already struggling. The Tories claim their measures are to 'make work pay', but they're not making work pay - they're just punishing those who need benefits and trying to frame it as 'strivers vs skivers', but 60% of benefit recipients are working people who are paid so poorly by greedy bosses that they need state help. They claim it's about fairness - but there's nothing fair about punishing people who are out of work when there are 5.43 unemployed people for every available vacancy. There's nothing fair about penalising disabled people while giving tax-cuts to the richest. And so on - and on, and on.

But that's not what the Tories want us to think, so they frame their question so that only one answer looks viable - and so that even a mass protest vote would give them something to turn into propaganda, and they win either way. This kind of deep-rooted, intentional dishonesty runs through their behaviour in Parliament, their interviews with news stations, their comments on panels - through everything they say, basically.

That the Tories are prepared to frame their questions in this way shows the contempt with which they regard the majority of people. They think we're either idiots and won't see what they're up to, or are irrelevant and what we think is unimportant.

It shows the weakness of their case, too. They're fully aware that the measures they want to push through really benefit only the so-called 'elite' and are bad for the vast majority of ordinary people - so they know they have to lie, deceive and mislead if they're to be successful.

It also shows that they're morally bankrupt, callous, determined to divide ordinary people against each other - and they'll stoop to any dishonesty if it will allow them to 'validate' their ideologically-driven measures. People deserve better than that - and we shouldn't allow the Tories to get away with it.

So, I'm going to post my own poll on here. I'll do my best to frame it in a way that offers people the chance to vote for answers that would please either side. Unlike the Tories, I don't fear what genuine responses to honest questions will show, so I don't need to try to skew the results.

If I can get it working, I'll post it tonight or in the morning. Please come back and cast your votes - and then we can tell this government what we really think about what it's doing.

(The poll is now online at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:39 am

I have voted in your poll skywalker I did not know you where on twitter I have just joined so I will look out for you. What I can not understand skywalker the Tories call those that are not in work scroungers and lazy when there is 2.51 Million unemployed and not enough jobs available to cover that amount and yet they are cutting benefits of every type so the people of the UK bear the brunt of his nasty cuts, I have just had notification of the housing benefits and bedroom tax that come into effect come next April and it looks really bad I can feel a general DISOBEDIENCE by all in the UK coming on and its not before time.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by skwalker1964 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:45 am

Redflag wrote:I have voted in your poll skywalker I did not know you where on twitter I have just joined so I will look out for you. What I can not understand skywalker the Tories call those that are not in work scroungers and lazy when there is 2.51 Million unemployed and not enough jobs available to cover that amount and yet they are cutting benefits of every type so the people of the UK bear the brunt of his nasty cuts, I have just had notification of the housing benefits and bedroom tax that come into effect come next April and it looks really bad I can feel a general DISOBEDIENCE by all in the UK coming on and its not before time.

Thank you! My ID on Twitter is the same as here - just watch out not to include that 'y'. Everybody does it lol.

It's not so hard to understand, unfortunately. The Tories know the facts - they can't really miss them - but it suits their aims to ignore the fact that about 2 million people can't work because there are no jobs for them, so they use the scrounger rhetoric to get 'white van man' and other gullible or ignorant people onside. Those people don't realise they're being hit, too - and will be hit harder once the current measures are through and the government is looking for the next thing to cut.

It's the classic Bonhoeffer syndrome, deliberately cultivated by the Tory spin-doctors - 'then they came for me, and there was no one left to stand up for me'. Sad
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by boatlady on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:55 am

thanks for the chance to vote in an honest poll - did the Tory one, just to get my views out there, but it did violence to my sense of fair play.
Where will you publish your results?
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:57 am

skwalker1964 wrote:
Redflag wrote:I have voted in your poll skywalker I did not know you where on twitter I have just joined so I will look out for you. What I can not understand skywalker the Tories call those that are not in work scroungers and lazy when there is 2.51 Million unemployed and not enough jobs available to cover that amount and yet they are cutting benefits of every type so the people of the UK bear the brunt of his nasty cuts, I have just had notification of the housing benefits and bedroom tax that come into effect come next April and it looks really bad I can feel a general DISOBEDIENCE by all in the UK coming on and its not before time.

Thank you! My ID on Twitter is the same as here - just watch out not to include that 'y'. Everybody does it lol.

It's not so hard to understand, unfortunately. The Tories know the facts - they can't really miss them - but it suits their aims to ignore the fact that about 2 million people can't work because there are no jobs for them, so they use the scrounger rhetoric to get 'white van man' and other gullible or ignorant people onside. Those people don't realise they're being hit, too - and will be hit harder once the current measures are through and the government is looking for the next thing to cut.

It's the classic Bonhoeffer syndrome, deliberately cultivated by the Tory spin-doctors - 'then they came for me, and there was no one left to stand up for me'. Sad

Do you really think that the people of the UK will stand by and let this happen, I do not know if you where around at the time of the Poll tax it was bad but not as bad as this and the riots that caused and the decent people that went to prison for there principals, so how in heavens name can the people put up with the Tory SPIN & LIES.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:34 pm

The Tory response will be scratch-cards with the numbers already revealed, so you'll know you've lost without all that scraping nonsense.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:34 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The Tory response will be scratch-cards with the numbers already revealed, so you'll know you've lost without all that scraping nonsense.

Never touch the things OW, they do not have reveal the numbers even with them covered up I know that one chance in a million to get a win. cheers
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by skwalker1964 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:59 pm

boatlady wrote:thanks for the chance to vote in an honest poll - did the Tory one, just to get my views out there, but it did violence to my sense of fair play.
Where will you publish your results?

You're welcome! I'll put the results on my blog and here.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by skwalker1964 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:04 pm

Redflag wrote:
skwalker1964 wrote:
Redflag wrote:I have voted in your poll skywalker I did not know you where on twitter I have just joined so I will look out for you. What I can not understand skywalker the Tories call those that are not in work scroungers and lazy when there is 2.51 Million unemployed and not enough jobs available to cover that amount and yet they are cutting benefits of every type so the people of the UK bear the brunt of his nasty cuts, I have just had notification of the housing benefits and bedroom tax that come into effect come next April and it looks really bad I can feel a general DISOBEDIENCE by all in the UK coming on and its not before time.

Thank you! My ID on Twitter is the same as here - just watch out not to include that 'y'. Everybody does it lol.

It's not so hard to understand, unfortunately. The Tories know the facts - they can't really miss them - but it suits their aims to ignore the fact that about 2 million people can't work because there are no jobs for them, so they use the scrounger rhetoric to get 'white van man' and other gullible or ignorant people onside. Those people don't realise they're being hit, too - and will be hit harder once the current measures are through and the government is looking for the next thing to cut.

It's the classic Bonhoeffer syndrome, deliberately cultivated by the Tory spin-doctors - 'then they came for me, and there was no one left to stand up for me'. Sad

Do you really think that the people of the UK will stand by and let this happen, I do not know if you where around at the time of the Poll tax it was bad but not as bad as this and the riots that caused and the decent people that went to prison for there principals, so how in heavens name can the people put up with the Tory SPIN & LIES.

I sincerely hope not, but I fear the effects of 20 years of 'reality' TV and the disengagement with politics that I think stems partly from people perceiving Labour as Tory-lite since Blair and because the current leadership hasn't shown itself to be different enough yet, and partly through being deliberately cultivated by politicians and media that know they have no chance of power if people really understand what's going on.

It's what drives me to write - and many others, too, I think.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:01 pm

You could be right skywalker I only got involved in politics when this shower got into power so in my case your right on the button.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:45 pm

The Tories treat us like idiots again

and we let them ! It was voter apathy that left the gap for them to insinuate themselves into power after thirteen years in quarantine. There still appears to be an attitude among the Public that there's nothing people can do against a foul oppressive Government, as though it's a natural pestilence like cancer or e-coli.

What does it take for the working population to cry ENOUGH ! for Heaven's sake?
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:51 am

oftenwrong wrote:The Tories treat us like idiots again

and we let them ! It was voter apathy that left the gap for them to insinuate themselves into power after thirteen years in quarantine. There still appears to be an attitude among the Public that there's nothing people can do against a foul oppressive Government, as though it's a natural pestilence like cancer or e-coli.

What does it take for the working population to cry ENOUGH ! for Heaven's sake?

I may be able to answer your question OW, this will serve as a hard lesson for the voting public I would think the people that voted Tory or L/D that would normally vote Labour will have so many regrets they will be kicking themselves for believing what they both said before the G.E 2010. As for your last question IMHO that will happen in April 2013 when the other 80% of there cuts come in but rest assured OW it will take a lot longer than 13 years for them to get back into power after what they have done this time they will have to sit in the wilderness UNTIL HELL FREEZES OVER. cheers
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by tlttf on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:09 pm

Guess who would rather abstain than vote to allow previous mob back into power. Bit like turkeys voting for christmas.

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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by bobby on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:58 pm

Hello Landy. I guess that one less voting as you did in the last GE, is almost as good as Labour getting an extra vote as it extends Labour's chances by 1 vote, whereas if you did the right thing and voted Labour the difference would be 2 votes.

Anyway I believe it all to be hypothetical, as there is no way can I see Labour losing unless Ed Miliband raped the queen.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by blueturando on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:12 pm

Hi Bobby......I hope you are well

I can see another hung parliament happening. I don't think it will be as easy for Labour as many on here predict. We know from experience and opinion polls of the past, that they usually count for nothing when the actual day of the GE arrives. So the question is....will Miliband get into bed with the Lib Dems despite all that's gone on and how much they are hated by Labour supporters (see posts on Cutting edge)


Last edited by blueturando on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by skwalker1964 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:50 pm

blueturando wrote:Hi Bobby......I hope you are well

I can see another hung parliament happening. I don't think it will be as easy for Labour as many on here predict. We know from experience and opinion polls of past, that they usually count for nothing when the actual day of the GE arrives. So the question is....will Miliband get into bed with the Lib Dems despite all that's gone on and how much they are hated by Labour supporter (see posts on Cutting edge)

That would be the lesser of two evils - but still an evil.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by bobby on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:29 pm

Hello Bluey. I am very well Thank you, and hows your good self (nothing to do with the Prat Will Self)

As things stand, that is a remote possibility, but with only 20% of the Tory Led Coalitions cut implimented and another 80% to come, I realy dont think we can expect another Tory anywhere near the dispatch box any time soon.

Some say and wonder where Labours arguments are, If you like me watch as much of the next election build up, we and everyone else will see exactly whats up Ed Milibands Sleeve. It wont be difficult after all, every time either Herr Cameron, The Boy Gideon or Iain Dumkopf Schmidt open their mouths more and more people are getting disilusioned by them, Also come the next General Election The Tories won't have the Lib-Dems to help them out, as I am certain that by then they will be a totally spent Force and instesd of gaining seats, they will be losing their deposits. As has been pointed out by Ivan several times, those who voted Tory last time may well vote Tory next time, but those who voted Labour will again vote Labour, what will make a big difference are those EX Lib-Dems who have since joined the Labour Party. I honestly believe its a done deal, the only reason I bother myself in continuing to fight against the Tories, is in the hope of getting rid of them soone. But even if that doesn't happen and they/you remain in power, more pain will be inflicted, another recession is expected, borowing will keep rising etc, and all this will keep them out of Power for many years to come.

This could be a good time for a New political party or two to start up to fill the voids left by the remnants of the Tory party and the what will be all but defunked Lib-Dems.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:00 pm

UKIP fancy their chances of forming a Government, with the votes of Conservatives unhappy with the EU and also gay marriages; with the aid of soured Lib-Dems, and with their own moves away from being just a single-interest pressure group.

UKIP have now declared various interests -

Attracting support from working-class voters who like its populist attacks on immigrants, Muslims and the political establishment.

UKIP is not the Thatcherite Wing of the Tory Party, it is farther to the right. It believes that spending cuts have not gone far enough, proposes a flat tax of 31% for everyone, abolish Employers' liability for National Insurance, scrap subsidies for renewable energy and invest in Nuclear power generation.

Its horizons extend far beyond Brussels now.





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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by boatlady on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:05 pm

I do worry about UKIP
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:43 pm

oftenwrong wrote:UKIP fancy their chances of forming a Government, with the votes of Conservatives unhappy with the EU and also gay marriages; with the aid of soured Lib-Dems, and with their own moves away from being just a single-interest pressure group.

UKIP have now declared various interests -

Attracting support from working-class voters who like its populist attacks on immigrants, Muslims and the political establishment.

UKIP is not the Thatcherite Wing of the Tory Party, it is farther to the right. It believes that spending cuts have not gone far enough, proposes a flat tax of 31% for everyone, abolish Employers' liability for National Insurance, scrap subsidies for renewable energy and invest in Nuclear power generation.

Its horizons extend far beyond Brussels now.






The L/Ds would not support UKIP as they are all for the EU, Nigel Farage has let his vanity be stroke because of his position in the polls and since the Tories and the L/Ds names are SHYTE with the voting public he thinks he is on too a good thing and only the G.E. in 2015 or sooner will Nigel get the truth of what the people of the UK really think of him.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Ivan on Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:22 pm

I do worry about UKIP
We all should, if they have candidates who peddle Nazi propaganda like this:-

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:24 pm

A Gauleiter in every maternity ward.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:19 pm

Ivan wrote:
I do worry about UKIP
We all should, if they have candidates who peddle Nazi propaganda like this:-

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There is a local election on thursday 20th Dec, the Ukip candidate put on his website that pregnant women found to be carrying a downs or spinal bifida he is suggesting that the gov't give them abortions as they would only be a burden on the gov't NHS and its parents so there you go Ivan that is what the UKIP party is all about.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by boatlady on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:00 pm

Saw that - surely they can't attract votes for policies like that?
Feel like I'm living in Nazi Germany
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by skwalker1964 on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:17 pm

The raw materials for the idiot extremists have always been there. For the nazis it was eugenics and even the bumps on your head, now we have genetics and pre-birth testing. Neutral things in themselves but useful for the crazies if the social pendulum is allowed to swing that way. Sad
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:19 am

boatlady wrote:Saw that - surely they can't attract votes for policies like that?
Feel like I'm living in Nazi Germany

I just hope the people in the area that the by-election is happening in have seen that and know his name boatlady, with the way things are thanks to the Tories cuts to the working man/women and thee B(W)ankers and Millionaires get tax breaks it leaves everything wide open for the Extremists.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Ivanhoe on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:29 pm

Redflag wrote:I have voted in your poll skywalker I did not know you where on twitter I have just joined so I will look out for you. What I can not understand skywalker the Tories call those that are not in work scroungers and lazy when there is 2.51 Million unemployed and not enough jobs available to cover that amount and yet they are cutting benefits of every type so the people of the UK bear the brunt of his nasty cuts, I have just had notification of the housing benefits and bedroom tax that come into effect come next April and it looks really bad I can feel a general DISOBEDIENCE by all in the UK coming on and its not before time.

The British will never stand together. Many are as arrogant as Cameron .
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:50 am

Ivanhoe wrote:
Redflag wrote:I have voted in your poll skywalker I did not know you where on twitter I have just joined so I will look out for you. What I can not understand skywalker the Tories call those that are not in work scroungers and lazy when there is 2.51 Million unemployed and not enough jobs available to cover that amount and yet they are cutting benefits of every type so the people of the UK bear the brunt of his nasty cuts, I have just had notification of the housing benefits and bedroom tax that come into effect come next April and it looks really bad I can feel a general DISOBEDIENCE by all in the UK coming on and its not before time.

The British will never stand together. Many are as arrogant as Cameron .

I think you will find that this gov't is the straw that broke the camels back Ivanhoe, in regards to the voters of the UK the Maggot was bad but this lot there is not words to describe them as to how rotten and nasty they are, so have faith in the voting public after the other 80% of cuts come in April 2013 you will definitely hear the voting public. cheers
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Ivanhoe on Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:34 am

Yes but it's too bloody late then.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:22 pm

There is an upside to the Tory excesses, which have reminded the voting public that the Coalition protestations of being forced into unpopular moves by their "inheritance" were just an attempted diversion from the reality. A return to government of The Nasty Party.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:50 pm

oftenwrong wrote:There is an upside to the Tory excesses, which have reminded the voting public that the Coalition protestations of being forced into unpopular moves by their "inheritance" were just an attempted diversion from the reality. A return to government of The Nasty Party.

What supprises me OW is the L/Ds are peddling the same SHYTE as the Tories I wonder if they will remember that come May 2015 ?
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by bobby on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:55 pm

Hello Red. It doesn't much matter what the Lib-Dems remember or dont remember, what's important is that the electorate remember everything they are either directly or indirectly responsible for, things like their part in the privatisation of the NHS and the attacks on the needy when supporting Iain Dumkopf Schmidt with his evil welfare reforms. We must remember, none of it could have happened without them.
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

Post by Redflag on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:28 pm

I totally agree bobby but you and I know what the L/Ds war cry is going to be come Jan 2015, that is when the campaigning will be getting off the ground for real and somebody will remind them of what you have said of how they have treated the good people of the UK. I know what the Tories are going to say come the run up to the G.E. "Do Not Turn Back Now" in other words put us back in and we will show you how NASTY we can really be. lol! lol!
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Re: The Tories treat us like idiots again - this time in an online poll

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