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Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

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Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by tlttf on Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:16 am

First topic message reminder :

Fantastic article from the "New Statesman", sums up politics as is?

Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

All parties love the easy, polarising rhetoric of “us” against “them” – but how distinct are their ideas?

By Rafael Behr, Published 31 January 2013

There is a reliable way to tell if David Cameron is rattled. When the Prime Minister is on shaky ground, he hurls the charge of being “left-wing” at Ed Miliband as if it were the foulest thing he could say within the bounds of parliamentary protocol. The “Red Ed” label has never been a plausible line of attack but it is a comforting fiction for senior Conservatives who deride the Labour leader’s agenda as a slide into unelectable socialism.

Take time out from tribalism and read the article!

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Redflag on Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:28 pm

blueturando wrote:Can I ask....Seeing as most of you think we (Britain) does not have a money issue, can afford ever higher welfare bills and more debt incured. When and how do you expect or think we are going to pay for it....Soon or just never?


I will try and explain it as plain so that you can understand it blue, Yes we have money problems thanks to the banks antics in 2007/08, to start off its THIS gov't that is borrowing more money to pay JSA to those that it has flung on the scrap heap due to there cuts, we on the left think this is PURE STUPIDITY would it not be better to have people IN WORK paying tax & NI and not having to pay them JSA this would be a win win situation.

We may be skint as a country YET we seem to have FOUND £10 Million towards the burning of the Maggot where did that money come from for that ? or the Tory MP that is asking for a pay rise of £40,000 to there salary "Where the EFF" is that money going to come from, so maybe you can EXPLAIN where all this money is going to come from, Davey boy cut MPs salaries when he came into office by 5% but that was nothing more than a cover up for robbing the taxpayer blind. But not of course the rich and wealthy that pour money into the Tory party funds the likes of Michael Farmer who gave £1.3 Million or hedge fund boss Lord Fink who gave around £289,000 this is the4 reason that they where give the tax cut of over £107,000 per year so now we all know.

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:45 pm

blueturando wrote:Can I ask....Seeing as most of you think we (Britain) does not have a money issue, can afford ever higher welfare bills and more debt incured. When and how do you expect or think we are going to pay for it....Soon or just never?

"....most of you think we (Britain) does not have a money issue...."

That's probably because it's true. To take just one Company, Vodafone is examining the most sensible way in which to repatriate $135Billion from the sale of its interest in the American telecoms giant Verizon.
Several other companies are amassing cash because they are unable to make practical investment decisions as long as Britain's government is unable to balance its books. Some companies on the London Stock Exchange are even debating a return of cash to shareholders.

"Money issues" as always, depend upon who is talking.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by skwalker1964 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:05 am

blueturando wrote:Can I ask....Seeing as most of you think we (Britain) does not have a money issue, can afford ever higher welfare bills and more debt incured. When and how do you expect or think we are going to pay for it....Soon or just never?

At least get your question straight, blue. If we don't have a 'money issue', then we don't need 'more debt incured' (sic). Which is it going to be?
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:57 am

REDFLAG...You still didn't answer the question, no surprise there. Have you any idea on how many billions we have paid out on debt interest? Well let me run this past you...circa £40 billion a year. Doesn't that bother you, or are you more worried about your political ideolgy when moaning about 10 million for a funeral....PS I don't expect a sensible answer

Skywalker......I said most of you think we don't have money issues, I know we do. If we dont then why do governments of all colours continue to borrow money year on year....£400 billion was owed when Labour came to power in 97 and that rose to just over a trillion by 2010 and that was in the supposed boom time...and of course we way beyond that figure now.

So I will ask you the same question Skywalker, doesnt paying that interest every year seem like an awful waste of tax payers money? And if so, why do you think we should borrow more just to waste even more on interest payments running into the £billions?

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by skwalker1964 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:14 am

Blue, you're missing your own point. If there are no money issues, then there is no need to borrow and no need to pay interest. The UK could easily pay off its debt and fund what it needs to without borrowing, if a government is prepared to impose properly-enforced taxation and to make companies pay properly for the right to sell to our 60-odd million plus population.

You're accusing us of saying there are no money issues and of wanting to borrow. The two don't go together.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Deadly Nightshade on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:18 am

blueturando wrote:Much to the denial of the left (including posters here) the simple truth is that the country cannot afford the welfare state as it is. Watch any political programme on TV and this is the agreed consenus, even amongst Labour MP's.

Ok going to agree with your point here, in that the country cannot afford the welfare state as it is, however my issue and yours will obviously differ on context. If we proceed any further down the line we are going currently, not only have some of the most vulnerable families being left high and dry already but due to further amendments just coming in and those yet to make a grand entrance later this year the the lasting effects of this will be decades to repair!


blueturando wrote:EVERYBODY.....Wants a welfare state that is there to come to the aid of people who are genuinely in need, but again the simple truth is that set up as it is at the moment, the benefits system is open to abuse..and is being abused regularly by a small but significant number of people


There are no political dividing lines on this issue and it would seem that 'working class' people are more in favour of welfare reform than anyone else in our society. Many hard working people are just fed up seeing the abuse being played out all around them and a system that unintentionally rewards the feckless and lazy..

The abuse in which you point out within the system is not just by Joe Bloggs, don't forget how with certain benefits such as Children's Benefit the changes made to the qualifying terms on this families earning £60,000 no longer qualify, however in 2 parent households if neither parent earns £60,000 they can still claim CB. So in theory if either or both earn under £59,000 each then they are still under Conservative regulations able to claim ~ IS THIS THE ABUSE THAT YOU WERE ALSO THINKING OFF?


blueturando wrote:There simply has to be limits on welfare payments, if only to make it fair on the working & middle classes...but ideally to try and reverse the unhealthy culture created by various govenments over the last few decades. Maybe, just maybe we will end up with more funds to direct into social care and othe more worthy causes

Opting for calling a spade a spade here,the various governments over the past few decades you mean Labour right? Lets not kid ourselves that should any or all monies be saved from the Vendetta orchestrated against the more vulnerable in society from the welfare state by current government that they would for 2 seconds even consider putting it back into the public purse and use it for "social care and other more worthy causes" when they have all but annihilated the NHS, screwed up the education system and now taking to playing russian roulette with the welfare system ~ you can kid yourself all you like but those EFFECTED most by the changes can clearly see through the charade of a government whom clearly don't give a rats ass for the majority of the UK pop.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Redflag on Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:36 am

blueturando wrote:REDFLAG...You still didn't answer the question, no surprise there. Have you any idea on how many billions we have paid out on debt interest? Well let me run this past you...circa £40 billion a year. Doesn't that bother you, or are you more worried about your political ideolgy when moaning about 10 million for a funeral....PS I don't expect a sensible answer

Skywalker......I said most of you think we don't have money issues, I know we do. If we dont then why do governments of all colours continue to borrow money year on year....£400 billion was owed when Labour came to power in 97 and that rose to just over a trillion by 2010 and that was in the supposed boom time...and of course we way beyond that figure now.

So I will ask you the same question Skywalker, doesnt paying that interest every year seem like an awful waste of tax payers money? And if so, why do you think we should borrow more just to waste even more on interest payments running into the £billions?

Along with skywalker I will ask the question "Where is £10 Million" coming from to pay for that old witches funeral, Osbourn will borrow it adding to the debt and the interest charges you are so good at harping on about. As long is the Incompetent dick head Osbourn is in charge of the UK economy those interest charges will keep going up you know he is borrowing a lot more that what he said he would that runs into BILLIONS, instead of borrowing to get people back to work so that the treasury would get NI & tax coming in and welfare bill would go down (not having to pay out so much JSA & housing benefit), instead he would rather keep people on the dole and unemployment at over 2.5 Million, that strikes a cord of my memory who was it that said "Unemployment was a price worth paying" the old hag thatcher there was only one thing wrong with that (she the cats mother) was not paying the price it was the good people of the UK.

Any amount of interest charges that we have to pay worrries me that same as the majority of the people in the UK, and yet Tory MPs do not seem to be bothered about it not when there asking for pay rises of £40,000 per year, so I think you better have a word in there shell like and tell them if the rest of the UK has to make do with a 1% pay rise they will have to wait until we have the interest charges way down before they get, not £40,000 pay rise but something more sensible WHEN AND ONLY WHEN WE CAN AFFORD IT.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:06 pm

Redflag, Skywalker and Deadly Nightshade.......The point I am trying to make is NOT party political one as all governments...Labour and the Tories seem to be happy to continue paying out large some of tax payers money in debt interest, while at the same time cutting services to save money....It just does not make sense to me..

I wish we currently had a politician with the backbone of Thatcher (forget the policies for now) who would actually seriously take on the big businesses who are blatently and apparantly legally avoiding huge some in tax payments. I cannot see Cameron or Miliband doing anything out this and neither has given any indication that they will tackle to problem.

There simply has to be limits on welfare payments, along with strong government action to get high earners and big businesses to pay their fair share. There is only so much to working and middle class tax payers can contribute before the bubble bursts

Red...I agree and don't think MP's should get a £40k rise...Lets hope Labour and the Lib dems vote against such a proposal

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Redflag on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:39 pm

blueturando wrote:Redflag, Skywalker and Deadly Nightshade.......The point I am trying to make is NOT party political one as all governments...Labour and the Tories seem to be happy to continue paying out large some of tax payers money in debt interest, while at the same time cutting services to save money....It just does not make sense to me..

I wish we currently had a politician with the backbone of Thatcher (forget the policies for now) who would actually seriously take on the big businesses who are blatently and apparantly legally avoiding huge some in tax payments. I cannot see Cameron or Miliband doing anything out this and neither has given any indication that they will tackle to problem.

There simply has to be limits on welfare payments, along with strong government action to get high earners and big businesses to pay their fair share. There is only so much to working and middle class tax payers can contribute before the bubble bursts

Red...I agree and don't think MP's should get a £40k rise...Lets hope Labour and the Lib dems vote against such a proposal

Blueturando its you that is making this a party political point according to you and your party it was the Labour party that is the cause of the interest charges, where the truth of the matter is the BLOODY Banks caused most of it, so until you and this gov't are willing to tell it like it really is it will always be a party political point. Over the past THREE YEARS I have regretted that Gordon Brown bailed out the banks due to your gov't forcing the working people of the UK to pay that money back and do not tell me they and the rich & wealthy are paying there fair share BULLSHIT.

There is not many in the UK that could forget Thatchers policies because once again the working people of the UK paid the price or have you forgot "Unemployment is a Price Worth Paying". The people you talk about avoiding there correct amount of tax are the same people that are pouring money into Tory party funds, your right about Cameron not doing anything about the tax dodgers or the banks paying the people of the UK the money back that we had to borrow instead they prefer to pay themselve huge salaries and bonuses. Only time will tell whether or not Ed Miliband will do anything about the banks and the tax dodgers, so do not class him the same as Cameron Ed Miliband has said that if the banks do not seperate the casino part of the bank from the business side he will do it for them BY LAW so Ed has indicated what he will do
something about the banks, and by the time he comes to power the only way he will have any money in the treasury is to get his hands on the GREEDY tax dodgers.

If gov't got the bosses to pay DECENT wage to there workers there would be no need for the welfare state to boost people wages with tax credits or housing benefit which would reduce the amount of welfare that had to be paid out, Labour have already started this by introducing the minimum wage, now the Tories want to cut the minimum wage in fact when Labour where bringing this in the Tories where DEAD against it and now it looks like they are trying to get rid of it.

As for the rise of £40,000 pay the tory MPs are calling for, as per usual the Lib-Dems will do there masters bidding not unless both Tories and L/Ds get a right dubbing at the local elections in May which it looks like they will get because people are so angry at having to pay for the B(W)ankers and the tax dodgers.

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Deadly Nightshade on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:54 pm

blueturando wrote:Redflag, Skywalker and Deadly Nightshade.......The point I am trying to make is NOT party political one as all governments...Labour and the Tories seem to be happy to continue paying out large some of tax payers money in debt interest, while at the same time cutting services to save money....It just does not make sense to me..

I wish we currently had a politician with the backbone of Thatcher (forget the policies for now) who would actually seriously take on the big businesses who are blatently and apparantly legally avoiding huge some in tax payments. I cannot see Cameron or Miliband doing anything out this and neither has given any indication that they will tackle to problem.

There simply has to be limits on welfare payments, along with strong government action to get high earners and big businesses to pay their fair share. There is only so much to working and middle class tax payers can contribute before the bubble bursts

Red...I agree and don't think MP's should get a £40k rise...Lets hope Labour and the Lib dems vote against such a proposal

I'm not 100% certain that I'm understanding your point blueturando, if you are not trying to make a political point, the issue you mention goes to the core of all party politics. I do agree that it is senseless to keep paying huge debt payments, and all the while cutting services across the board to save money, especially when there is an easier way to help ease the current economic tension.

However they're never going to gain a successful economy while there is so much unemployment, and considering how unemployment figures have risen steadily throughout the course of the coalitions time in power so far they are running constantly at a loss, and now taking how the economy is behaving, throw in a few G's all with all the up's downs and double dips and you end up with a Roller Coaster any amusement park would be proud of instead of anything remotely resembling an economy.



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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by bobby on Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:20 pm

Deadly nightshade. As things are, we have a Government that has absolutely no interest or desire to repair the economy. They will fail time and again in order to keep our economic outlook bleak. The reason for this is , in order for them to proceed with their ideological plans they need a reason/excuse and so long as the economy is failing, they feel that they have the justification to continue as is. How else can they justify any cuts if we are not up shit creek.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Mel on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:04 pm

Totally correct bobby. This is what I have been saying here for many months.

Tories have and never had any intention of putting their efforts into getting our country back on its feet. The opportunity to simply implement their long awaited ideology came about because of the Global Crisis.
FIVE GUARANTEED YRS IN GOVERNMENT WAS ALL THEY NEEDED. They made sure they achieved that term from the start.


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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:25 pm

Let us never forget who it was that opened the cage door for the Tory bandits.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by bobby on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:25 pm

Totally correct bobby. This is what I have been saying here for many months.
Hello Mel Mate, Yes you have, I knew I got it from somewhere.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by skwalker1964 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:11 pm

blueturando wrote:Redflag, Skywalker and Deadly Nightshade.......The point I am trying to make is NOT party political one as all governments...Labour and the Tories seem to be happy to continue paying out large some of tax payers money in debt interest, while at the same time cutting services to save money....It just does not make sense to me..

Indeed. Someone needs to have the courage to describe a different narrative to the electorate - one in which effective and progressive taxation takes the money from its current unproductive locations and channels it into services, jobs and growth for the good of all.

I wish we currently had a politician with the backbone of Thatcher (forget the policies for now) who would actually seriously take on the big businesses who are blatently and apparantly legally avoiding huge some in tax payments.

Again, indeed.

There simply has to be limits on welfare payments, along with strong government action to get high earners and big businesses to pay their fair share. There is only so much to working and middle class tax payers can contribute before the bubble bursts

Red...I agree and don't think MP's should get a £40k rise...Lets hope Labour and the Lib dems vote against such a proposal

Ah, I knew it couldn't last but it was nice while it did lol. The vast majority of 'welfare' cost is pensions. Unemployment and low-income benefits are a single-digit portion of the cost. Cutting them is counter-productive, since it sucks money out of the economy - such people spend what they get very quickly, because they have little choice.

The way to reduce the benefit bill without damaging the economy is to impose a living wage and make full employment in productive jobs paid at the living wage a firm objective. Everyone who is able to work is then able to do so without needing to rely on state benefits, and as a bonus we have a strong and thriving economy.

Your error is the same one the Tories hope we'll make when they talk about capping housing benefit - the proper solution is to cap rents, then housing benefit costs will take care of themselves.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:55 pm

skwalker1964 wrote:-
The vast majority of 'welfare' cost is pensions. Unemployment and low-income benefits are a single-digit portion of the cost.
Great post (as always), but you’re banging your head against a brick wall; some people just won’t accept these facts:-

- The Joseph Rowntree Foundation published a study last December testing whether there were three generations of the same family that had never worked, as Iain Duncan Smith had claimed. Researchers were unable to find such families.

- In 2011-12, it is estimated that 0.8% of total benefit expenditure was overpaid as a result of fraud.

- Many Jobseekers’ Allowance claims are very short. More than 80% of claimants never go near the work programme because they aren't on the benefit for long enough.

- Only 8% of benefit claimants have three or more children.

- The UK spends about the same as the EU average on unemployment and disability-related benefits, but we spend 12% less a head than France and 19% less than Germany.

- Between 2001/02 and 2011/12, spending on 'social protection' benefits increased from £156 billion to £210 billion. Pensioner incomes made up the largest share of the change, around nine-tenths of the growth.

The UK is the seventh richest country in the world. What’s the point of all that wealth if we “can’t afford” to look after the poor, the sick, the old, the disabled and those who are unemployed through no fault of their own?

No doubt I’ll be accused of “making things up as I go along”, but here is the source I used, even if it isn’t as reliable as ‘The Daily Mail’:-
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Redflag on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:45 am

skwalker1964 wrote:
blueturando wrote:Redflag, Skywalker and Deadly Nightshade.......The point I am trying to make is NOT party political one as all governments...Labour and the Tories seem to be happy to continue paying out large some of tax payers money in debt interest, while at the same time cutting services to save money....It just does not make sense to me..

Indeed. Someone needs to have the courage to describe a different narrative to the electorate - one in which effective and progressive taxation takes the money from its current unproductive locations and channels it into services, jobs and growth for the good of all.

I wish we currently had a politician with the backbone of Thatcher (forget the policies for now) who would actually seriously take on the big businesses who are blatently and apparantly legally avoiding huge some in tax payments.

Again, indeed.

There simply has to be limits on welfare payments, along with strong government action to get high earners and big businesses to pay their fair share. There is only so much to working and middle class tax payers can contribute before the bubble bursts

Red...I agree and don't think MP's should get a £40k rise...Lets hope Labour and the Lib dems vote against such a proposal

Ah, I knew it couldn't last but it was nice while it did lol. The vast majority of 'welfare' cost is pensions. Unemployment and low-income benefits are a single-digit portion of the cost. Cutting them is counter-productive, since it sucks money out of the economy - such people spend what they get very quickly, because they have little choice.

The way to reduce the benefit bill without damaging the economy is to impose a living wage and make full employment in productive jobs paid at the living wage a firm objective. Everyone who is able to work is then able to do so without needing to rely on state benefits, and as a bonus we have a strong and thriving economy.

Your error is the same one the Tories hope we'll make when they talk about capping housing benefit - the proper solution is to cap rents, then housing benefit costs will take care of themselves.

Good post skywalker in regards to capping housing benefit it would be better if they capped the private landlords in what they can charge, as council rents are not that exspensive I bet more than 55% of money paid out in housing benefit goes to the private landlords.

But there will be some on the forum that will say this is poppy cock sorry but I know different, I lived in London for four years and HALF my weekly wage went on rent for one room share kitchen and bathroom and I would not think this had changed much since then.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Deadly Nightshade on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:52 am

bobby wrote:Deadly nightshade. As things are, we have a Government that has absolutely no interest or desire to repair the economy. They will fail time and again in order to keep our economic outlook bleak. The reason for this is , in order for them to proceed with their ideological plans they need a reason/excuse and so long as the economy is failing, they feel that they have the justification to continue as is. How else can they justify any cuts if we are not up shit creek.

Not to sound stupid on this but I think I may have been overly optimistic in hoping that they're poor handling and mismanagement of the economy and everything that comes along with was in part at least trial and error instead of out and out malicious intent. I knew they had a particular distaste for those on benefits and those within the lower part of the wages scale, from this perspective they are sadistic to all but the top few percent of earners. Bobby your above post is simplistic in approach but very very effective, I feel sick now at the thought of having to wait a further 2 years before the light at the end of the tunnel.

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Ivan on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:05 am

I suspect malicious intent. The UK economy was just out of recession and starting to grow when Cameron and Osborne took over. Osborne had to snuff out that growth as quickly as possible so that they could repeat their tired old lie that "it's all Labour's fault" ad infinitum. If the economy was seen to have recovered from the global credit crunch, that lie would have been even more ridiculous.

Any fool can deduce that austerity doesn't work and has never worked. You don't make an economy grow by shrinking it. An unemployed man can't pay off his debts. But none of that matters to the evil people running this government. The state of the nations's finances was just a perfect excuse to shrink the state and privatise most of it, in order to implement their sick and undemocratic ideology and reward those firms which bankroll the Tory Party.

Labour should be reminding everyone of how, before the crunch, they presided over the longest period of uninterrupted growth in our history, while Cameron and idiots like Redwood had been calling for even greater deregulation of the finance industry.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:21 am

It's barely credible that Party Ideology could require the dismantling of a Nation's economy, but the present Government demonstrates many characteristics of a foreign Invader.

Time to mobilise the Home Guard?
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Redflag on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:32 pm

oftenwrong wrote:It's barely credible that Party Ideology could require the dismantling of a Nation's economy, but the present Government demonstrates many characteristics of a foreign Invader.

Time to mobilise the Home Guard?

The Home Guard OW can be mobilised come the 2nd May let us show the Tories and Lib-Dems we might be down but we are not OUT.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by skwalker1964 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Ivan wrote:I suspect malicious intent. The UK economy was just out of recession and starting to grow when Cameron and Osborne took over. Osborne had to snuff out that growth as quickly as possible so that they could repeat their tired old lie that "it's all Labour's fault" ad infinitum. If the economy was seen to have recovered from the global credit crunch, that lie would have been even more ridiculous.

Any fool can deduce that austerity doesn't work and has never worked. You don't make an economy grow by shrinking it. An unemployed man can't pay off his debts. But none of that matters to the evil people running this government. The state of the nations's finances was just a perfect excuse to shrink the state and privatise most of it, in order to implement their sick and undemocratic ideology and reward those firms which bankroll the Tory Party.

Labour should be reminding everyone of how, before the crunch, they presided over the longest period of uninterrupted growth in our history, while Cameron and idiots like Redwood had been calling for even greater deregulation of the finance industry.

"Planned misery" as outlined by Naomi Klein in the excellent and seminal "The Shock Doctrine" - crisis as opportunity, and if one doesn't come along, engineer one.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:23 pm

The "enemy at the gate" were admitted by a Quisling yellow Liberal Party, and they will reap the harvest of their perfidy in due course. Meantime, it is up to patriot Electors to make their views apparent on May 2nd. et seq.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:08 am

Tories have and never had any intention of putting their efforts into getting our country back on its feet. The opportunity to simply implement their long awaited ideology came about because of the Global Crisis.

Youre right Mel. We decided from the outset to leave the country in the crap state that we usually inherit, then we can see how Labour get us back their feet with their socialist poilicies....I sugest you just follow Hollande and France as its all going so well for him over the water.

I can wait for Labour to get back in government in 2015 and see the top rate of tax raised to at least 50%, undo all the tory welfare reforms, borrow more to invest to create growth, get big businesses to pay all their taxes ect..ect.
I am sure all this will be in the Labour manifesto and implemented almost straight away....Anyone wanna have a bet with me?

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Redflag on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:33 am

blueturando wrote:
Tories have and never had any intention of putting their efforts into getting our country back on its feet. The opportunity to simply implement their long awaited ideology came about because of the Global Crisis.

Youre right Mel. We decided from the outset to leave the country in the crap state that we usually inherit, then we can see how Labour get us back their feet with their socialist poilicies....I sugest you just follow Hollande and France as its all going so well for him over the water.

I can wait for Labour to get back in government in 2015 and see the top rate of tax raised to at least 50%, undo all the tory welfare reforms, borrow more to invest to create growth, get big businesses to pay all their taxes ect..ect.
I am sure all this will be in the Labour manifesto and implemented almost straight away....Anyone wanna have a bet with me?

When this Tory led gov't came into power in May 2010 the economy WAS GROWING , but the first thing they did was to stop any further growth by sacking god nows how many public sector workers this lead to the private sector loosing jobs business shutting down take a good look at most high streets in the UK.

You say you can't wait for Labour to get back into power, where as I am worried in case the Tories get back in, the UK could not take another FIVE YEARS of a Tory gov't this country is on its KNEES if the Tories get back in it will be STONE DEAD. The UKIP party would be just as bad they are offering 31% tax for EVERYBODY and if they think the rich and wealthy would put there money into business BULLSHIT it would go straight into an off shore account with the rest of there Millions, so either way the normal working man/women will lose and neither party GIVES TWO FCUKS
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Mel on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:30 am

blue, In your attempt to be facetious, you have simply highlighted what I have said and agreed with me. Irrespective as to whether or not Labour would be able to reverse all the deadly deeds of your beloved rich loving Tory party.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:17 pm

EVERYBODY and if they think the rich and wealthy would put there money into business BULLSHIT it would go straight into an off shore account with the rest of there Millions, so either way the normal working man/women will lose and neither party GIVES TWO FCUKS.

Guess what Redflag...It's their money...Not yours and not mine, but theirs. Now I know you are envious of people with money, so much so that it's turned into hate....but me? I just think fair play to you for being successful.

The top 10% of earners pay 50% of the tax, so you should be kissing their feet and thanking them. It's not their fault you and all the other bleeding heart lefties are failures and cant manage to make you own way in this world without being baby sat and subsidised. Grow up you lot and get a grip of your own lives and stop blaming everyone else for you own inadequacies


Last edited by blueturando on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:20 pm

Irrespective as to whether or not Labour would be able to reverse all the deadly deeds of your beloved rich loving Tory party..

The labour party can reverse whatever it wants if its in government. The Tories manage it quite well so there is no excuse there Mel

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Ivan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:58 pm

blueturando wrote:-
The labour party can reverse whatever it wants if its in government.
So you think Labour could take back all the council houses with which the Tories bribed working class voters? You think Labour can find the money to re-nationalise all the utilities and the railways without a massive increase in taxation? You think Labour can break all the NHS contracts which the corrupt Tories have been dishing out to their corporate backers?
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by bobby on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:59 pm

Hello Bluey.. I think you will find the Tory way of turning things around is a much easier task than it will be for Labour.

It is much simpler for the Tories to flog off everything we have by way of services and what’s left of any other nationalised industry, they already have a queue a mile long of Tory donors ready so step in and purchase any thing that is to be sold at drop down prices.


When Labour return, their task of repurchasing is all but impossible as much of what gets sold ends up in foreign hands. A good example of this is electricity provision, most of which is owned by the French State, how are we to coerce a French Government to return something so profitable without threatening a punch up.


The only way as I see it, would be to start a new Nationalised electricity company using the latest technology, then go in direct competition with the private companies.


Left to the Tories, the only thing they will leave in public ownership is a part of the NHS, so that when any private hospital buggers up, the remnants of the NHS will have to pick up the patient and the cost.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Mel on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:16 pm

Thank's bobby and Ivan. Saved me the trouble to reply blue.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:36 pm

Get real Ivan.....Labour have no interest in re-nationalising any privatised industries, even if it had the money to do so.

As for council houses, why didn't Labour build more during the 13 in government? It was a boom time afterall so they must have had the money, but they still missed every target set..and by some way too

Labour and its supporters are very good at moaning about things (gold medal standard) but when you have the opportunities to do something about it nothing happens. It's the same with manufacturing, which fell more under the Last Labour government than at anytime under Thatcher and co....Say one thing, do another...that should be your Party line

Oh and you have the nerve to even mention the NHS after what Labour has done with PFI. Accusing you of being in denial would be an understatement


The Guardian - July 2012

The cost of Britain's controversial private finance initiative will continue to soar for another five years and end up costing taxpayers more than £300bn, according to a Guardian analysis of contracts that were sanctioned by the Treasury.

Despite recent coalition criticism suggesting that the government was going cold on the scheme, recently published figures indicate that repayments will continue ballooning until they peak at £10.1bn a year by 2017-18.

The 717 PFI contracts currently under way across the UK are funding new schools, hospitals and other public facilities with a total capital value of £54.7bn, but the overall ultimate cost will reach £301bn by the time they have been paid off over the coming decades.


And for our Scottish posters......

NewsnetScotland

Labour PFIs create £37.5 billion debt legacy for Scotland

One last thing....Is it Labour and the Lefts master plan just to make everyone one in the world equallly poor?

PS...I give it 3 or so more posts before this is locked. This is the usual when the argument is lost

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Mel on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:39 pm

If you THINK blue it would be so easy for an incoming government to turn things around, why in Gods name have this bunch of destroyers not regulated the banking/finance centre?

They are and were before the election so good at continuiosly blaming Brown for not doing so, when in fact is was the Witch who de-regulated in the first place.

Easy to sell off, privatise, close businesses, and attempt to slowly privatise the NHS and deregulate the banks that love to be deregulated. Impossible to reverse those things and more and yet you DREAM it can be done. The Tories know their evil doings will either be impossible to reverse, that has been their objective from the start.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by tlttf on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:23 pm

Not sure what labour did/didn't do to the banks other than let them do as they wished, even though it's taking a long time (3years and counting) at least the bunch of mongrels in power are making them become more viable. Go on then Mel, tell me which business this government has closed down, don't bother naming the ones that weren't viable as the thread could get long and boring, and as for blues excellent piece regarding PFI's no doubt that was "Maggies fault". Doesn't one of the labour mp's want to scrap housing benefit and use the money saved to build more houses?

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by bobby on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:27 pm

PFI's no doubt that was "Maggies fault".
Well I don't hear the bitch denying it? Very Happy
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Redflag on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:32 pm

Mel wrote:If you THINK blue it would be so easy for an incoming government to turn things around, why in Gods name have this bunch of destroyers not regulated the banking/finance centre?

They are and were before the election so good at continuiosly blaming Brown for not doing so, when in fact is was the Witch who de-regulated in the first place.

Easy to sell off, privatise, close businesses, and attempt to slowly privatise the NHS and deregulate the banks that love to be deregulated. Impossible to reverse those things and more and yet you DREAM it can be done. The Tories know their evil doings will either be impossible to reverse, that has been their objective from the start.

When Gordon Brown was trying to bring in regulation for the banks Mel, it was the Tories that where yelling for LESS REGULATION and as you have said it was the old HAG Thatcher that de-regulated the banks in 1983. This Tory gov't will NEVER bring in regulation to the banks so what happened in 2007/08 can happen again at any time but this time they will go to the wall just like I wish that Gordon Brown had let them go in 2007/08.

There finding it very easy to sell off ALL THE FAMILY SILVER thanks to the THICKOS in the Lib-Dems or are they just another shower of GREEDY BACKSTUDS but they seem to forget when there is nothing left to sell off the to Tory friends & donors they will find out that they are nothing more than FAIR WEATHER FRIENDS, when they can give them no more because there is no more left to sell them.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:38 pm

GREEDY BACKSTUDS

Funny one really Redflag??? The tories are traditionally a party of low taxation and the free market, where as you and your lot are the party of high taxation and state control....Seems to me its you lot who are the GREEDY BACKSTUDS as you want to steal everyones hard earned money for yourselves to waste on what ever YOU want....Its just not cricket old chap Smile

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Mel on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:13 pm

If one earnes over £150k pa and I did say OVER before you start bleating, then just as Tories try to deny the majority the minimum wage then the wealthy should pay heavy taxes. Should that situation change and folk are paid a decent wage then yes tax the wealthy employers less.

Most of the greedy employers and wealthy shareholders sit on their arses in overseas hot spots whilst the slaves are grinding away with this so called government making it even easier for the blighters by crating a glut of desperate workers hit by the mass unemployment situation as usual under the Tories. They love it do they not?

They register their businesses overseas by renting a room, where they are supposed to have meetings and such like which allows them a tax haven.

Time to address the situation Cameron instead of just rhetoric. I will never happen under a Tory led government.

This government have created the closure of many businesses that relied upon the public sector for their income. I wont bother to name them landy as you may become bored and we do not want that now do we? Smile
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:14 pm

tlttf wrote:Not sure what labour did/didn't do to the banks other than let them do as they wished, even though it's taking a long time (3years and counting) .... as for blues excellent piece regarding PFI's no doubt that was "Maggies fault"....

No, tlttf, don't be silly, of course PFI wasn't Maggies' fault. It was introduced by John Major.
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by Mel on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:24 pm

"It was introduced by John Major."

Ha ha stuffed!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

Post by blueturando on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:24 am

"It was introduced by John Major."

Ha ha stuffed!!!!!!!!!!.

Then whats the point of the Labour party if it just carries on with Tory policies?

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Re: Taking sides: the dividing lines of British politics

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