Welcome to Cutting Edge. Guests can see and read the contents of most of the boards on this forum but need to become members to read all of them. Currently membership is instant, but new accounts may be deleted if not activated within fourteen days.

If you decide to join the forum, please open your welcome message for further details. New members are requested to introduce themselves on the appropriate thread on our welcome board.

Members may post messages and start threads, but it is essential that they read our posting rules and advice before doing so. If you have any immediate questions or queries, please post them on the suggestions board.

After posting at least ten messages, members are able to contact each other and the staff through our personal messaging system.

This forum is administrated by Ivan and moonbeam and moderated by boatlady and astradt1.

Thank you for visiting Cutting Edge.

Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Page 2 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Not one Tory or Lib Dem MP turned up for the 'bedroom tax' debate

Post by skwalker1964 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Original at: http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/unbelievable-not-1-tory-turns-up-for-bedroom-tax-debate/

The Tories’ complete contempt for ordinary people couldn’t have been more clearly demonstrated than it was in yesterday’s Westminster Hall debate on the onerous, ludicrously-unfair ‘bedroom tax’, which will impoverish millions of struggling people for daring to have a spare bedroom, by deducting benefits.

This includes many people whose children are at university and millions of estranged parents who will be punished for having a room for their visiting children to stay in.

Not one Tory turned up for the debate. Not a single one, apart from the minister who was obliged to attend. Even the pathetic LibDems couldn’t be bothered to make an appearance.




For more details, read Eoin Clark’s excellent blog here.
avatar
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down


Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by tlttf on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:28 pm

:affraid:

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Eavesdropping in Eastleigh

Vote? What for? All the bloody same, just in it for themselves.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by sickchip on Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:00 pm

The 21st century and the British electorate still avail themselves to the whims of aristo toff bully boys.

We've come a long way in a few centuries......not!
avatar
sickchip

Posts : 1149
Join date : 2011-10-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Papaumau on Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:02 pm

Yes, we do suffer from what has become known as the "swingometer" syndrome where each new electorate, unhappy with what the last lot did, "swing" over to the other member of this two-party-system.

That, I believe, is why so many people in those two opposing sides have tried so very hard to grip on to the middle-ground voters by trying to con us that they are truly of the centre ground.

Of course they are NOT, and the quicker we realise that the better.

We have to start voting to our consciences instead of our desire for more and more "stuff" as every time we are promised the earth by both the hard right and the hard left we finish up being the victims of these hidden extremists in government.

Being aware of this syndrome - as I hope I am - I am now also hoping for a TRULY centre-ground Labour government of the future, as so long as we watch out for the lefty extremists as hard as we watch out for the rightist extremists, we might get a government that truly cares about the weak and the poor and the old instead of caring about nothing but themselves and their own rich and super-rich supporters.

Socialism, in it's true sense is what we are needing, ( not Communism BTW ), as the fairness that this country needs for and from government will never come from Toryism and its attached Fascism.

Regards.....

Papaumau.
avatar
Papaumau
Deactivated

Posts : 219
Join date : 2012-01-24
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by astradt1 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:10 pm

It was interesting today in PMQ's to hear that those who receive housing benefits are being paid 'A spare room subsidy' ....I wonder how much it is?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-21686871
avatar
astradt1
Moderator

Posts : 961
Join date : 2011-10-08
Age : 62
Location : East Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by skwalker1964 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:03 pm

astradt1 wrote:It was interesting today in PMQ's to hear that those who receive housing benefits are being paid 'A spare room subsidy' ....I wonder how much it is?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-21686871

That explains the Queen's wealth, then..
avatar
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:13 pm

Logically then, every tax concession to Company Accounts is therefore a Government subsidy.

Do they appreciate their good fortune?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Papaumau on Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:33 pm

That's the whole point here is it not ?

The only people that are going to be hit by the "bedroom tax" ( for that is truly what it is ), are the people that are at the present moment living in what is called "social housing" and bottom end rented accommodation. Those of us that, like me, own our own property are not being effected by this "extra room" syndrome in any way.

Maybe this awful tax could be somehow balanced out by imposing a tax on spare rooms in the mansions that the likes of The Queen and the cabinet millionaires live in.

A true mansion tax might re-balance this cruel attack on the poor.

Regards....

Papaumau.
avatar
Papaumau
Deactivated

Posts : 219
Join date : 2012-01-24
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by blueturando on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:10 pm

There is no such thing as a bedroom tax, so the argument is lost straight away.

If Labour cannot tell the difference between a Tax and a Benefit then is it any wonder the econemy was left in such a state

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Ivan on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:36 pm

There is no such thing as a bedroom tax, so the argument is lost straight away.
blueturando. Have you bothered to read this thread from the beginning? We've been through all that nonsense already - or are you just trying to derail the thread in the way that your mate often tries to do?

There is no 'so'. Just because you don't like the name that's being used, and whether it's a tax or not, doesn't invalidate the arguments against it. I suggest you take a course in logic, or maybe read some of this:-
https://s3.amazonaws.com/yourlogicalfallacyis/pdf/LogicalFallaciesInfographic_A1.pdf

The media refer to this withdrawal of benefit as a 'bedroom tax'. I don't somehow think that Cameron's reference to a 'spare room subsidy' is going to catch on, do you? As far as I'm concerned, any measure by which the government takes money out of people's pockets next month which is going into their pockets this month is a tax. So why don't you stop playing with words and start commenting on the pernicious effects this 'measure' (whatever you want to call it) is going to have on sick and disabled people?

(You might also like to check your messages occasionally. I sent you a PM on Monday which I can see hasn't been opened.)
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7037
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by blueturando on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:22 pm

I can tell youre in a bad mood today Ivan from your message above and the shutting down of free speech on the immigration issue citing Racism.....A ruse well known to be used by the Left to shut down discussion, but is no longer tolerated by a majority of the population. This is why Ed and Harriet are now pooping their pants and saying fake sorries.

Apart from your mood you obviously cannot bear the truth. Labelling this as a tax is false and fraudulent and as a moderator I am surprised you have let this continue....Please lets deal with the facts and not fantasy, thank you

PS....I with check my PM for my presumed telling off for not towing the line....just because Im Blue. Now that's blatent racism!!!! Smile

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:31 pm

In the game of Darts, a player must stand behind a line marked on the floor, facing the dartboard. Most people choose to place their toes as close as possible to the line. Overstepping it is likely to result in someone calling out, "Toe the line!"

The Rules rule, by general agreement.

avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by blueturando on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:36 pm

But what happens when the Ref draws a line closer to the board for his favourite players only.....Different rules for different players

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 50
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:45 pm

There is a very old joke about a proud Mum at the Army Cadets parade, exclaiming, "Oh look at my boy - he's the only one in step!"
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by astradt1 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:58 pm

If you all remember the 'Poll Tax' for that is what it was, a tax on all those registered to vote....Was called the 'Community Charge' by the Tory government of the day...

This was only because they did not want to be seen as bringing in a new tax, they wanted to be known as the government which cut taxes not imposed them.....

The same is happening now....as then......upper rate tax down, middle and lower earners to pay more.......
avatar
astradt1
Moderator

Posts : 961
Join date : 2011-10-08
Age : 62
Location : East Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Papaumau on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:57 pm

As I see it, many governments of the recent past have been terrified of that swearword "taxation" and because of that "terror" they have thought up many different and wonderful ways to take money from us without using that nasty word.

Another colloquialism is the term "stealth taxations" where we find a better name for what the governments do so that we can actually understand the ideas behind these TAXES when they're not being taken directly - as in Income Tax and National Insurance - from us.

The "bedroom tax" is just another one of those colloquialisms that we all, ( or at least most of us ), understand completely and no matter how hard these tax-takers try to wriggle out of this word-application it is still applied just as we understand it best.

On the one hand they take money from us, ( in many interesting and curious ways (TAXES ) ), but on the other hand they either give us it back in careful and effective spending or they waste it in profligacy that means that much of it gets into the hands of people that do not need it, but want it, and get it anyway.

Simple as that really !

Regards....

Papaumau.
avatar
Papaumau
Deactivated

Posts : 219
Join date : 2012-01-24
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by ROB on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:14 pm


Poll taxes in certain US stats, until outlawed by Amendment xx (see below), were used to de facto denial of voting rights to Black citizens. If I were a Brit of any stripe, anything going by any name remotely resembling a poll tax would be intolerable, and anyone seeking to impose such would be unwelcome in my nation.

United States Constitution, Amendment 24, Paragraph 1

1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:43 pm

blueturando wrote:-
There is no such thing as a bedroom tax, so the argument is lost straight away.
Gosh! It's not like any Tory fan to be overly-concerned to exercise themselves unduly about any facts.

Indeed, even our very own Mr Cameron appears yesterday to have had no regard at all for them, according to that Chote chappie from the Office of Budget Responsibility (OBR).

One could well visualise that famous and frequently-trumpeted OBR 'independence' being quickly curtailed if they announce any more inconvient lapses of truth-telling by Tory politicians like the dissembling Prime Minister... Shocked
avatar
Phil Hornby
Blogger

Posts : 3942
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Drifting on Easy Street

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:18 pm

The Chote chappie was careful to criticise "those advising the Prime Minister".
Doesn't he know who Rupert Murdoch IS?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Phil Hornby on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:27 pm

(zipd.eu)

" Well kiss me kangaroo's crotch, mate - you're surely not suggesting that me compatriot Rupe is in any way to blame for Stoat's little outburst...!"
avatar
Phil Hornby
Blogger

Posts : 3942
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Drifting on Easy Street

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Papaumau on Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:04 pm

As Phil Hornby said......And here is that criticism in full:

From my own Scottish tabloid today:

David Cameron was slapped down by his own budget watchdog for claiming that the government's cuts had not damaged the economy.

The Office for Budget Responsibility said the PM misled the British public by saying that his and Osborne's spending cuts and tax rises were not behind the fall in growth.

They clarified their stance directly to the PM via an official letter to number ten.




I do not know of anybody in or out of the Tory government - including their own advisors - that have not warned Cameron to change direction on the economy.

Some might say that he is just "sticking to his guns" but others might say that he and Osborne are just stubborn, recalcitrant and unwilling to listen to anybody.

What say you ?

Regards....

Papaumau.


avatar
Papaumau
Deactivated

Posts : 219
Join date : 2012-01-24
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by boatlady on Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:54 pm

Either very stupid or very wicked - certainly not fit to govern
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3709
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:53 pm

There may be some problem here.This problem will be similar to the poll tax which will bring about demonstrations then riots. As many will be forced to move from the extra bedroom premises they have lived in for years the urgency to 'rid' the nation of the Tories quadruples.

To OP question; it certainly seems like poll tax.

avatar
Jsmythe

Posts : 136
Join date : 2011-10-09
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:12 pm

Today's Sunday Times has an article pointing out that the bedroom tax may be extended to include Dining Room Tax as Councils may apply the same reasoning to any other room deemed to be supernumary.
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:55 pm

Cameron Personally Assesses New Tax Liabilities

(news.bbc.co.uk)

"...and I distinctly noticed that old coal bunker in the back yard which must be regarded as yet another wantonly unused bedroom..."
avatar
Phil Hornby
Blogger

Posts : 3942
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Drifting on Easy Street

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by astradt1 on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:13 pm

Will MP's Housing Allowance (Benefit) also be cut due to un-used bedrooms?

After all they are only in London for 4 Nights a week and will only need 1 bedroom........
avatar
astradt1
Moderator

Posts : 961
Join date : 2011-10-08
Age : 62
Location : East Midlands

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:29 pm

(msn)

" Here we go again - those buggers will go to any lengths to make sure Belmarsh doesn't have any unoccupied bedrooms to tax..."
avatar
Phil Hornby
Blogger

Posts : 3942
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Drifting on Easy Street

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:21 pm

What about those council-house aristocrats with a garden shed? Maybe TWO if they also have an allotment. I think we should be told!
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Jsmythe on Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:51 pm

One can argue, that what was once a spare bedroom is now a library.if you are willing to fit in the shelves and fill them with books. Or an office for a home business.

I say half jokingly.
Smile
avatar
Jsmythe

Posts : 136
Join date : 2011-10-09
Location : London

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Papaumau on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:39 pm

I have heard that some are now calling their "extra room" a gymnasium and filling it with second-hand exercise equipment !

ANYTHING but a bedroom its seems ?

Regards....

Papaumau.
avatar
Papaumau
Deactivated

Posts : 219
Join date : 2012-01-24
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by boatlady on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:03 pm

Certainly, the way education's going, the working class won't have use for a library - Gove'll see to that - train them for what they're good for - slave labour, and barely able to read the pictures in the Sun
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3709
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by tlttf on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:43 pm

Unfortunately you can call the room what you will, if the council has designated it as a bedroom then bedroom it is.

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:35 pm

See how this weasel coalition seeks to lay the blame on local councils?
avatar
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 11741
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Papaumau on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:52 am

tlttf wrote:Unfortunately you can call the room what you will, if the council has designated it as a bedroom then bedroom it is.

So what you are in fact saying is that the designated use for any room in a house cannot be changed from one to another ?

Surely if it does not have a bed in it, it can no longer be designated as a bedroom ?

Regards.....

Papaumau.
avatar
Papaumau
Deactivated

Posts : 219
Join date : 2012-01-24
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Ivan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:14 pm

Surely if it does not have a bed in it, it can no longer be designated as a bedroom?
Papaumau. Some council houses have dining rooms. I understand that some councils (probably mealy-mouthed Tory ones) are re-classifying them as bedrooms.
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7037
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Papaumau on Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:37 pm

Well Ivan, with that argument in mind, surely they can be reclassified down to other uses as well as up to use as a bedroom.

These "mealy-mouthed Tory Councils" cannot have it both ways.

Regards.....

Papaumau.
avatar
Papaumau
Deactivated

Posts : 219
Join date : 2012-01-24
Location : Scotland

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by bobby on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:31 pm

Many will have their garden sheds upstairs next to the bathroom.
avatar
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by ROB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:44 pm


In the US we have had what are called “projects”, federally locally run housing apartment complexes that are rented out on a reduced rate subsidized folks who qualify by various income-related means. I once lived in the projects with my family when I was young (pre-school).and later on, as a family services and aged, blind, and disabled services social worker with the largest welfare agency in the US, I visited many clients that lived in projects.

A decade after I switched careers, Jack Kemp became US Secretary of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) under President George Herbert Walker “Daddy” Bush. The Federal Housing Administration (FHA) was, and perhaps still is, an agency of HUD, so Secretary Kemp was the Big Dog. My brother Secretary Kemp began a program, Operation HOPE (I never can remember for what the acronym stands) that converted project apartments into condominiums and rent into house payments, thus propelling lifelong renters into the hallowed status of home owners. Kemp is one of my all-time favorite Americans; he saw that eternal rentership was perpetuating a permanent underclass, and used the power of his position to change that dynamic.

You see, when it’s “y’orn”, then “cain’t nobody tell you that your dining room is a bedroom.” I believe in government empowering the poor; transitioning permanent renters into homeowners is one way to do that.
avatar
ROB
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Ivan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:09 pm

Well Ivan, with that argument in mind, surely they can be reclassified down to other uses as well as up to use as a bedroom. These "mealy-mouthed Tory Councils" cannot have it both ways.
Papaumau. It appears that they can have it both ways. The council can look at how many rooms a family has and decide what it needs. The only good news is that, like so many policies of this malevolent yet grossly incompetent government, there is a great deal of confusion and IDS may be forced to backtrack on rooms for foster parents and members of the armed services.

However, in the meantime, a disabled woman from Liverpool who had a special lift shaft built through the floor of her spare room has been told she must still pay hundreds of pounds in bedroom tax:-
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2013/03/12/liverpool-woman-faces-600-bedroom-tax-bill-on-disabled-chair-lift-shaft-100252-32969797/

This disgusting policy is an attack on single parents, disabled adults, children with parents who are separated, carers, battered wives and many more. At least 55 protests against the bedroom tax are planned for this coming weekend, but so far the BBC has failed to report that fact:-
http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/03/bedroomtax-massive-55-nationwide.html

What IDS and his sick band of fascists don’t consider is that these are not just houses, they are homes. Many tenants have decorated and carpeted their houses and tended their gardens for years. Forcing those who can’t afford extra rent to leave their homes is a large step along a very nasty road – what next, workhouses?
avatar
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7037
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by boatlady on Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:50 pm

Someone gave me a story today about I think it was Liverpool, reclassifying social housing as single occupancy, so as to avoid having to impose the spare room sanction. Apparently, it was going to cost about £250000 a year - cheaper than relocating all those affected into B&B - when I've had my tea, I'll see if I can find the link.
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3709
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by boatlady on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:14 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-network/2013/feb/26/tenants-exempted-bedroom-tax-reclassify

here it is! bounce
avatar
boatlady
Administrator (Global Moderator)

Posts : 3709
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Re: Will the bedroom tax be the new poll tax?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum