Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
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AW
Sam Hunter
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Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
First topic message reminder :
Here is a news item from North Yorkshire which never made it onto the national headlines
A York-based practice has written to its patients offering them a range of minor treatments privately, claiming they are not funded by the local NHS.
Doctors' leaders said this could be the start of a worrying trend due to the squeeze on finances and NHS overhaul.
The letter, seen by the BBC, said local health chiefs had stopped funding a range of services, but added they could still have them done privately at a number of clinics, including one owned by the practice.
These included removing skin tags from £56.30 to treating benign tumours for £243.20.
Dr Richard Vautrey, of the British Medical Association, added: "The dire finances of many trusts means that many more NHS treatments are likely to become unavailable in the future".
Here is a news item from North Yorkshire which never made it onto the national headlines
A York-based practice has written to its patients offering them a range of minor treatments privately, claiming they are not funded by the local NHS.
Doctors' leaders said this could be the start of a worrying trend due to the squeeze on finances and NHS overhaul.
The letter, seen by the BBC, said local health chiefs had stopped funding a range of services, but added they could still have them done privately at a number of clinics, including one owned by the practice.
These included removing skin tags from £56.30 to treating benign tumours for £243.20.
Dr Richard Vautrey, of the British Medical Association, added: "The dire finances of many trusts means that many more NHS treatments are likely to become unavailable in the future".
witchfinder- Forum Founder
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Hello stu,
Welcome aboard.
Profit? yes that is aTory God. However, with the greatest of respect I think you have fallen into the trap that many people have. This thinking that there is "not much choice when it comes to voting" is derived from the press/media and most of all from folk who do not fully understand, nor bother to look into politics and therefore spread a false picture of situation.
How anyone could for one moment think that any other party than the Tories could treat the disabled, the poor, the homeless, the unemployed, the youth, the students, the NHS staff and a thousand other cruel policies in such a way, is utterly rediculous IMO.
On top of all that look at what effect privatisation via the Tories has done to the majority of people in this country. The rich shareholders are being allowed by the Tories to absolutely RIP US OFF stu.
Question---- Are you feelling better off than you did 5yrs ago?
I say stu that if people think that all parties are the same, then it will be their fault if we get yet another dose of these cruel Tory tyrants and they will deserve what they get.
This reminds me of the fools who said before the last election "it's time for a change" and look where that has got us.
Welcome aboard.
Profit? yes that is aTory God. However, with the greatest of respect I think you have fallen into the trap that many people have. This thinking that there is "not much choice when it comes to voting" is derived from the press/media and most of all from folk who do not fully understand, nor bother to look into politics and therefore spread a false picture of situation.
How anyone could for one moment think that any other party than the Tories could treat the disabled, the poor, the homeless, the unemployed, the youth, the students, the NHS staff and a thousand other cruel policies in such a way, is utterly rediculous IMO.
On top of all that look at what effect privatisation via the Tories has done to the majority of people in this country. The rich shareholders are being allowed by the Tories to absolutely RIP US OFF stu.
Question---- Are you feelling better off than you did 5yrs ago?
I say stu that if people think that all parties are the same, then it will be their fault if we get yet another dose of these cruel Tory tyrants and they will deserve what they get.
This reminds me of the fools who said before the last election "it's time for a change" and look where that has got us.
Mel- Posts : 1703
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Hello Mel.Mel wrote:This thinking that there is "not much choice when it comes to voting" is derived from the press/media and most of all from folk who do not fully understand, nor bother to look into politics and therefore spread a false picture of situation.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but the politicians have to shoulder some of the blame for the appearance of homogeneity. We have three main political parties that superficially appear the same. You could swap around the leaders in a sort of political musical chairs and nothing much would change appearance-wise. Politicians make themselves appear untrustworthy by not giving straight answers to questions, scoring points against the opposition and refusing to accept blame where it's indicated. Media outlets are unreliable as a source of political information and we have an electorate that is discontected from politics and so won't research matters for themselves.
Sam Hunter- Posts : 47
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
" Media outlets are unreliable as a source of political information and we have an electorate that is discontected from politics and so won't research matters for themselves.."
Very true Sam. However, anyone who allows himself/herself to believe or be brainwashed into thinking other parties are as cruel and as mercinary as this lot is beyond help IMO and put the rest of us in peril by allowing the evil ones in again by the back door so as to speak, if you get my drift.
Good to see you here Sam.
Very true Sam. However, anyone who allows himself/herself to believe or be brainwashed into thinking other parties are as cruel and as mercinary as this lot is beyond help IMO and put the rest of us in peril by allowing the evil ones in again by the back door so as to speak, if you get my drift.
Good to see you here Sam.
Mel- Posts : 1703
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Hi Mel I use to be a staff nurse etc before becoming an invalid, and worked in many hospitals and nursing homes. So I know the effect's both parties have on the nhs, IT IS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE VOTING for the lesser of the two evils. The lesser of the two evils in this case is going to be the labour party is it not.
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Correct stu. There is no other sensible choice.
Mel- Posts : 1703
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Mel,
I do indeed get your drift. It was bad when the Tories ended up in power, especially as the LibDems helped them. I'll give Camaron credit for same-sex marriage, but nothing else.
As a member of a Union, I'm already paying for the Labour Party (at the moment anyway...), so I'd like to think that they'll do some good. They've gotta be better...
I do indeed get your drift. It was bad when the Tories ended up in power, especially as the LibDems helped them. I'll give Camaron credit for same-sex marriage, but nothing else.
As a member of a Union, I'm already paying for the Labour Party (at the moment anyway...), so I'd like to think that they'll do some good. They've gotta be better...
Sam Hunter- Posts : 47
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
NoIs the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
AW- Posts : 40
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
One question though, would you as an incoming labour leader, un-privatise all the health service items that the tories have privatised?
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Any kind of Re Nationalisation would be almost impossible as to be so so expensive. Thr Tories knew it and know it only too well and are laughing all the way with their rich friends to their banks.
Perhaps the railways if affordable would assist the workforce and perhaps the unemployed and the low paid who can ill afford the rediculous travel prices. Give the blighters time and the NHS will be next. Especially if the fickle electorate put them in power again, even inadvertantly so.
Perhaps the railways if affordable would assist the workforce and perhaps the unemployed and the low paid who can ill afford the rediculous travel prices. Give the blighters time and the NHS will be next. Especially if the fickle electorate put them in power again, even inadvertantly so.
Mel- Posts : 1703
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Then Mel we are stuck with the nhs as it is until the election, unless we can raid the tory banks lol
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Jeremy *unt wants to collect the cash from foreigners treated in the NHS, but Doctors say they don't want to interrogate patients before treating them. (That presumably excludes those Doctors in private practise.)
I, together with every other Brit entitled to treatment, have a National Insurance number, and I also have an NHS number. Production of either should be a requirement of anything beyond First Aid unless travel insurance applies.... as it must if we fall ill abroad.
I, together with every other Brit entitled to treatment, have a National Insurance number, and I also have an NHS number. Production of either should be a requirement of anything beyond First Aid unless travel insurance applies.... as it must if we fall ill abroad.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
That's not what doctors and nurses do, OW. Their job is to treat the sick and injured. If you were in a serious car accident abroad and needed emergency surgery, you would get it in most hospitals. Sure, they will bill you but you would still be treated. (Except of course in most of 3rd world countries where healthcare is practically non-existent)
Health care workers look after people. How it gets paid is an administration issue, not a carer's issue. The NHS is far too busy paying agency staff and 'consultancy' fees and managers astronomical pay. The CEO at my hospital earns 10x what I make. That's ridiculous and people wonder why Britain is sinking in the world economy.
BTW, I don't think you can speak for 'every other Brit'. I am not British and I have a national insurance number and an NHS number. I also pay taxes as do most foreigners who live here.
Health care workers look after people. How it gets paid is an administration issue, not a carer's issue. The NHS is far too busy paying agency staff and 'consultancy' fees and managers astronomical pay. The CEO at my hospital earns 10x what I make. That's ridiculous and people wonder why Britain is sinking in the world economy.
BTW, I don't think you can speak for 'every other Brit'. I am not British and I have a national insurance number and an NHS number. I also pay taxes as do most foreigners who live here.
snowyflake- Posts : 1221
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
What's the betting this latest 'master plan' will turn out to be more expensive to administer than any extra revenue it will bring in? I don't think the principle behind it is a bad one though.
Dan Fante- Posts : 928
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
So the overall figures are like most government numbers selective to put across the point they are trying to make.......Do foreign visitors owe the NHS £2bn? – FactCheck
This morning, the Department of Health released a report which led to a rash of headlines on the massive costs of “health tourism”.
Creative Research, a research firm, was commissioned by the Department of Health to examine how much is spent on health for visitors to the UK and migrants.
They came up with a figure of £2bn.
The analysis
‘Health tourists’
According to the government’s own report, “health tourists” cost us nothing like £2bn a year. The £2bn figure refers to total numbers of visitors and migrants using the NHS.
The Department of Health said that “health tourists” – defined as people who have travelled here to get free healthcare they’re not entitled to – cost £70m to £300m a year.
But it goes on to point out that “these estimates for the costs of health tourists are very rough and far from certain”.
‘British expats’
The report says that migrants or visitors from the European economic area (EEA) cost us £261m last year, and those from outside this area cost us £1,075m, or around £1.1bn in 2012-13. It lists another category – “irregular migrants”. This group includes failed asylum seekers, overstayers and illegal migrants. They cost £330m last year.
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astradt1- Moderator
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Working in a hospital as you do, Snowyflake, you’re well positioned to know. However, as my posting mentioned, many Health Professionals, surgeons, anaesthetists etc have a Private practise alongside their NHS functions. The majority of them are reasonably efficient in submitting fee invoicing to their private clients and obtaining payment. Is it your opinion that such skills are best left at the hospital entrance?snowyflake wrote:That's not what doctors and nurses do, OW. ....
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
I would assume that the private sector would use admin staff to carry out duties you describe.oftenwrong wrote:Working in a hospital as you do, Snowyflake, you’re well positioned to know. However, as my posting mentioned, many Health Professionals, surgeons, anaesthetists etc have a Private practise alongside their NHS functions. The majority of them are reasonably efficient in submitting fee invoicing to their private clients and obtaining payment. Is it your opinion that such skills are best left at the hospital entrance?snowyflake wrote:That's not what doctors and nurses do, OW. ....
Dan Fante- Posts : 928
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Everything in a hospital is an administration issue, Dan, starting with Patient's Records. Doctors and Nurses depend upon those to perform their own function correctly, and will play an active part in maintaining them.
You will know that "treating the sick and injured" involves a whole lot more besides medical procedures. In addition to a small army of cleaners, there will be catering staff, porters, admissions staff with responsibility for bed allocation and calling in patients from the waiting list, as well as someone to ensure that people discharged have somewhere to go. There must be an out-patients appointments clerk, and a wages department. Someone will look after the fabric of the building, its plumbing and electrics, repairs and the environs. There will be staff responsible for maintaining medical supplies and medicines, a dispensary and stores. A Laundry will probably have staff employed 24/7, and there will be a fully-staffed IT department. Almost certainly, there is a part of the administration in your hospital that co-ordinates the private practises of Surgeons, anaesthetists etc where those involve NHS facilities and issues Invoices as appropriate. That section or an adjacent one would definitely already have mechanisms for collecting fees from Patients not entitled to treatment from the NHS.
If only for reasons of self-interest, their function deserves to be assisted by all other interested parties involved.
You will know that "treating the sick and injured" involves a whole lot more besides medical procedures. In addition to a small army of cleaners, there will be catering staff, porters, admissions staff with responsibility for bed allocation and calling in patients from the waiting list, as well as someone to ensure that people discharged have somewhere to go. There must be an out-patients appointments clerk, and a wages department. Someone will look after the fabric of the building, its plumbing and electrics, repairs and the environs. There will be staff responsible for maintaining medical supplies and medicines, a dispensary and stores. A Laundry will probably have staff employed 24/7, and there will be a fully-staffed IT department. Almost certainly, there is a part of the administration in your hospital that co-ordinates the private practises of Surgeons, anaesthetists etc where those involve NHS facilities and issues Invoices as appropriate. That section or an adjacent one would definitely already have mechanisms for collecting fees from Patients not entitled to treatment from the NHS.
If only for reasons of self-interest, their function deserves to be assisted by all other interested parties involved.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
I didn't see what you were getting at but I now take your point. However, extending that to pursuing those overseas / supposedly not entitled to free care may well be a different matter (and a fruitless one). If someone enters hospital for private treatment it's likely to be non essential so the mechanism by which you collect payment is easier, i.e. it can be arranged in advance. The same doesn't apply to someone visiting A&E with a serious head injury they got on a night out (for example). I.e. I take your point about the mechanism being in place but it still doesn't ensure that mechanism can actually get beyond sending out the invoices or whatever so it may just become a paper exercise in vain.
Dan Fante- Posts : 928
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
So you think Mel the next step for these money grabbing blues [tories], is that they are going to issue us all with ID cards. Great we are getting more like the yanks every time they get a term in power, might aswell build a bridge accross the atlantic.
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Many other EU Countries are signed-up to the Schengen agreement, which permits freedom of cross-border travel without identity checks for the majority of EU citizens. Nevertheless you still won't get free medical treatment without proving your identity. Some Countries charge anyway as there is an agreement to recover the outlay from your own administration upon returning home.Mel wrote:Identity cards!!!!???
My point is that all Brits (and some others) can prove entitlement to NHS services by the simple declaration of NI Number or (different) NHS number. Any foreign medical immigrant should be readily identifiable as such, and asked for Insurance or Credit Card details at admission or soon after.
I have personal knowledge of foreign students attending language schools here, obtaining free NHS treatment for e.g. drunken accidents or affray. Even upon telling Hospital staff that there were no contributions in place, they always said it wasn't their job to act as tax collector. QED.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Here's one for Steve Walker, if he's watching:
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oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Was it that bad in the first place OW?
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Steve Walker was principally concerned with the internal politics of the NHS, stu.
Nobody can usefully comment on a previous situation that went unreported at the time, and Steve was exercised by the evidence of collusion between various hospital CEOs to present a united front against any criticism.
Nobody can usefully comment on a previous situation that went unreported at the time, and Steve was exercised by the evidence of collusion between various hospital CEOs to present a united front against any criticism.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
I understand now OW, thanks for explaining.
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
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Jeremy Hunt vigorously opposes NHS sell-off.
Jeremy Hunt vigorously opposes NHS sell-off.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
His head will drop off soon OW,
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
But would he entrust an NHS hospital with getting it back on for him, stu?
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
No way on earth OW.
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Jeremy Hunt vigorously opposes NHS sell-off.
I hope the Bastard remembers to change hands at the 99th stroke
.
I hope the Bastard remembers to change hands at the 99th stroke
.
bobby- Posts : 1939
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Nice one bobby, if he doesn't he will need an op to put that back on.
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
250 wait 24 hours on A&E trolleys.
"Yesterday Downing Street confirmed that David Cameron is getting personally involved in overseeing the NHS's response to expected pressures on casualty departments in England this winter"
Well there you go, all will now be fine, but hold on a mo, wasn't it because the Git Herr Cameron got involved that caused this terrible problem in the first place
"Yesterday Downing Street confirmed that David Cameron is getting personally involved in overseeing the NHS's response to expected pressures on casualty departments in England this winter"
Well there you go, all will now be fine, but hold on a mo, wasn't it because the Git Herr Cameron got involved that caused this terrible problem in the first place
bobby- Posts : 1939
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
I might be missing something but I don't really think the plans that are closing or reducing the opening hours of NHS walk-in centres is going to help ease the problems in A&E departments.
Dan Fante- Posts : 928
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
It's the ancient technique known as Death by a thousand cuts which is designed to encourage those who can, to pay so as to receive anything remotely dignified by way of health treatment. As many Tories have always done.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
"I might be missing something but I don't really think the plans that are closing or reducing the opening hours of NHS walk-in centres is going to help ease the problems in A&E departments. ."
It is so stupid Dan. You just couldn't make it up now could you?
It is so stupid Dan. You just couldn't make it up now could you?
Mel- Posts : 1703
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Now what was it Dave was saying about meeting A&E targets at PMQ's last week?A&Es face closure after Health Secretary warns of 'difficult decisions' as private hospitals are put on standby this winter
Jeremy Hunt warns the public has been confused by access to care
Dire warnings of an A&E crisis this winter amid surge in patient numbers
12,000 patients left for 12 hours on trolleys, 250 waited for 24 hours
Ministers admit holding talks with private sector over treating NHS patients
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astradt1- Moderator
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Nothing to worry about eh Astrad1?
stuart torr- Deceased
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Here’s an article to make you feel sick. It reveals the damage which the Tories have done to the NHS, enacting, without any mandate from the electorate, the plans they kept secret for years. £1.5 billion worth of contracts have now gone to Tory donors: if that isn’t corruption, I don’t know what is.
Competition is killing the NHS, for no good reason but ideology
Extracts from an article by Polly Toynbee:-
It came too late. "We are bogged down in a morass of competition law. We have competition lawyers all over the place telling us what to do, causing enormous difficulty." So said Sir David Nicholson, departing head of NHS England, to the health select committee, excoriating what has been done to the NHS. Cameron's pledge of "no more tiresome, meddlesome, top-down restructures" may have been wiped off the internet, but few will forget.
Nicholson could have stopped Cameron's Health and Social Care Act had he and other NHS leaders dared speak out as it struggled through Parliament, hanging on exactly this point – infecting the NHS with competition law. It's too late, now the NHS has tendered out three-quarters of new contracts to competition, according to Pulse magazine. Headlines focus on the gathering storm in A&E, bed shortages, waiting times and rationing (one eye only for cataracts). Less visible, but equally disruptive, is section 75's competition clause.
Cameron is ordering the NHS to use the private sector, but it's no cheaper. Jeremy Hunt strives to airbrush out the past three Andrew Lansley years and the £3bn cost of the Health and Social Care Act. He tries to blame any fault on Andy Burnham's previous era, a ruse unlikely to see him through the unfolding turmoil.
For the full article:-
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Competition is killing the NHS, for no good reason but ideology
Extracts from an article by Polly Toynbee:-
It came too late. "We are bogged down in a morass of competition law. We have competition lawyers all over the place telling us what to do, causing enormous difficulty." So said Sir David Nicholson, departing head of NHS England, to the health select committee, excoriating what has been done to the NHS. Cameron's pledge of "no more tiresome, meddlesome, top-down restructures" may have been wiped off the internet, but few will forget.
Nicholson could have stopped Cameron's Health and Social Care Act had he and other NHS leaders dared speak out as it struggled through Parliament, hanging on exactly this point – infecting the NHS with competition law. It's too late, now the NHS has tendered out three-quarters of new contracts to competition, according to Pulse magazine. Headlines focus on the gathering storm in A&E, bed shortages, waiting times and rationing (one eye only for cataracts). Less visible, but equally disruptive, is section 75's competition clause.
Cameron is ordering the NHS to use the private sector, but it's no cheaper. Jeremy Hunt strives to airbrush out the past three Andrew Lansley years and the £3bn cost of the Health and Social Care Act. He tries to blame any fault on Andy Burnham's previous era, a ruse unlikely to see him through the unfolding turmoil.
For the full article:-
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
Is this a valid point?
A privatised NHS?
By johnredwood | Published: November 17, 2013
I find that the really popular part of the NHS that most voters wish us to protect and continue is the fact that most NHS service is free at the point of need , and all UK citizens are eligible for that treatment based on their need, not their means. All main political parties in the Commons - and I think UKIP – support this principle. The political debate is often about how a monopoly healthcare provider can deliver a good enough service without queues, without high rates of hospital infection and without bad treatment.
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A privatised NHS?
By johnredwood | Published: November 17, 2013
I find that the really popular part of the NHS that most voters wish us to protect and continue is the fact that most NHS service is free at the point of need , and all UK citizens are eligible for that treatment based on their need, not their means. All main political parties in the Commons - and I think UKIP – support this principle. The political debate is often about how a monopoly healthcare provider can deliver a good enough service without queues, without high rates of hospital infection and without bad treatment.
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tlttf- Banned
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
People don't really appreciate the value of something they appear to get "free".
The rot set-in for the NHS when "National Insurance Contributions" stopped being a stamp you had to stick onto a card and became just another deduction from wages before you even saw them, along with PAYE income tax.
The rot set-in for the NHS when "National Insurance Contributions" stopped being a stamp you had to stick onto a card and became just another deduction from wages before you even saw them, along with PAYE income tax.
oftenwrong- Sage
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Re: Is the NHS really safe in Tory hands?
My question is---- How can any private health care provider be trusted to deliver the same or a better service than the NHS (that has been squeezed to death by this government) whilst at the same time (or without doubt very soon after getting their feet under the table) put profit as ever, before quality service?
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