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Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

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Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by ROB on Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Shirina wrote:
Humans are easily fooled.

Perhaps that’s why atheism is growing in spite of its illogicalness.

To prove that an omniscient being does not exist, one must be an omniscient being. Only God can prove God’s existence, and only God can prove God’s nonexistence; thus, if God’s nonexistence is ever proven, God will have proven God’s own nonexistence.


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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:42 am

Shirina wrote:
But you nevertheless insist upon sharing that nothing with the World. Curious.

Tosh and Snowy are 100% correct. Religious fundamentalism poses the greatest threat to humanity second only to viruses. Through direct practices such as Crusades, Inquisitions, Fatwas, and witch hunts to inaction such as keeping birth control out of the hands of Africans and refusing to allow child-fiddling priests to be prosecuted, religion has caused more bloodshed and harm than everything other than disease. And religion has often used disease as a means to justify even more killilng.

Fundamentalism is not just a threat to life and health, but also freedom and liberty. It has ALWAYS been such, and today, with growing numbers of religiously-inspired hate groups and militias, with the Middle East butchering itself by the hundreds, the genocide that is going on in Africa and had been going on in Bosnia-Herzogovina - even the wars between Catholics and Protestants right here in our back yard - the ENTIRE world would be at peace if not for religious fundamentalism.

Atheists take a stand against this complete lack of reason. Atheists are not really organized enough to enact large scale, well-funded campaigns such as those witnessed here in the States with the religious anti-gay "culture war" (their words). Unfortunately, that's how it should be, for if atheists ever became organized, we would all run the risk of some uniform doctrine and dogma that would resemble far too much a religion. But there IS a message in atheism that goes beyond simply not believing in gods.

well said, Shirina....thats a (the?) very good argument for atheism(humanism?)...............mostly, I feel that atheists are just as tub-thumping as those they decry, which is what leads me to have the same attitude to them as to the religious loonies, but your humanitarian angle, to me,anyway, is a good one...............................tho.........................tho.................it does make me wonder what we're gonna do with all the extra people on the planet that will result from an end to the killing and cruelty that happens because of religion...........
Tho................I wonder if religion is an invented excuse for people to express their built in belligerence(a product of evolution?), and is akin to the yob in the pub saying 'I dont like your face', as a prelude to a bit of gratuitous violence?
Perhaps evolution is to blame for the religious freaks violence, then,since its principle must extend to things inorganic and ethereal(mindsets),as well as mechanically organic?
Gosh.............didnt mean for this to go where it has, not that it will make the world a better or a worse place,(despite my considerable expertise as a wordsmith(!)) Embarassed
Blimey- all too much too early in the day........................hallo to all;off to make another cup of tea;at my age, tea constitutes essential morning medication!

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Shirina on Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:46 am

mostly, I feel that atheists are just as tub-thumping as those they decry, which is what leads me to have the same attitude to them as to the religious loonies

Atheism is not mandated by a Supreme Being to spread the faith. Not so with religion. Someone once made the argument that Islam wants to conquer the whole world. I said, "Most religions do." I've seen more than enough Christians, in their often placid way, talk out of a crooked mouth how wonderful it would be if everyone were a Christian. They don't phrase it militantly, but the dream of world conquest exists even in the most peaceful of believers.

Unlike Islam, that seeks to dominate through violence and fear, Christianity seeks to dominate through exploitation, legislation, and deceit. It's literally a soldier vs. spy game. The atheist may "thump a tub" now and again, but it isn't necessarily to promote atheism. It is because atheists would rather not be dominated by either the soldier or the spy. With very few exceptions, atheists have adopted a solid "live and let live" approach to life. People are free to believe in whatever gods they wish as that is a part of the essential freedom and liberty that we support.

But religions focused on world domination, no matter their methods, do not share that philosophy. By hook or crook, they want to be dominant. Fundamentalism wants to make everyone bow to their beliefs, and when we see that coming to light in legislation or laws of religious morality, that's when we atheists get out our tubs. In the States, more so than Europe, fundamentalism has a strong enough backing as to be truly dangerous. Right now, America is working hard to keep nuclear weapons away from Iran - because it is gripped by religious fundamentalism. But a legitimate question asked by many: But ... isn't America also gripped by fundamentalism? Who is keeping the nuclear weapons away from THEM?! A legitimate point.

Atheists are often pragmatists by nature. We understand that wiping out religion is not a realistic goal. More than a few atheists would be happy to see religion vanish from the planet, but not through the use of force or law. We would only welcome the demise of religion if the people themselves chose to do so - voluntarily. Fundamentalists both here in the West and in the East want to impose their religious values onto as many people as they can and through whatever means is both legal and available (and sometimes "legal" is optional). Whether it's sneaking religion into our schools by forcing science teachers to include Creationism in the curriculum or a suicide bomber shouting to Allah before detonating his device - it all amounts to the same thing, the same goal: Domination.

Atheists on the internet tend to be more vocal, more militant than in the real world. Because beyond the internet we have to play nice. Fundamentalism does not. In fact, Fundamentalists use the internet for the same old thing - more domination. Preachers spread the disease to congregations, and individuals from those congregations run all over the place like Typhoid Mary coughing and breathing on as many people as possible to spread the disease ... errr, I mean faith. Atheists do not send missionaries to impoverished lands to exploit the misfortune of others thus spreading the atheist worldview. Nor to atheists strap on bomb vests and shout "For atheism" before obliterating 50 people in a crowded cafe. What we DO do, however, is argue our point of view, and we do that very tenaciously. But that's where it ends. Atheism does not seek to dominate the world. But, if someday in the distant future we found ourselves on top through the choices people have freely made, few of us would complain.

it does make me wonder what we're gonna do with all the extra people on the planet that will result from an end to the killing and cruelty that happens because of religion...........

Eliminating religion would not eliminate crime. It doesn't mean everyone will suddenly be nice to each other. There may still be an occasional war over resources and territory. What it would do, however, is eliminate much of the current cause for warfare - or the justification for it. There would be far less of a reason to commit genocide, to burn witches, to oppress women, to hate gays, or to simply persecute or kill those of a different faith. Bonds of peace and friendship between nations would be much stronger, more stable, longer lasting, and easier to maintain. Just like democratic nations almost never war against one another, nations of the same faith rarely war against each other (at least in modern times). There would be no Sunni vs. Shi'a vs. Baath vs. Sufi vs. Wahabi bloodshed. There would be no Catholic vs. Protestant bloodshed. There would be no Christian vs. Muslim vs. Hindu bloodshed.

Few things - not patriotism, not greed, not power - stirs the heart to fight like religion and a belief that God is on your side.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:23 am

Atheism doesn't say anything about my values or my keen interest in eugenics.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:28 am

Tosh wrote:.... my keen interest in eugenics.

and on that bombshell ............... Good Morning to everyone!
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by snowyflake on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:30 am

I'm fairly sure that religion is , at least, partly responsible for the indiscriminate breeding which has exploded the world's population, dummed down the population and increased disease especially in Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

But I think I would lean towards education rather than eugenics. A slower process to be sure but a far kinder, more compassionate method.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by snowyflake on Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:31 am

Good morning, OW:) Do you have snow where you are? It's bloody freezing here and there is snow on my daffodils (this is not a euphemism btw)
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:54 pm

Charity and religious dogma is breeding poverty in Africa, 1 billion people just multiplying without any thought for how they intend to support themselves, except God will provide.

Well God is doing a rather shitty job and its left to me as a responsible breeder and godless tax payer to feed them and their irrationality.

I have been reading Nietzsche, very interesting.

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by snowyflake on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:54 pm

Nietzsch is a sour puss but I did like his unrestrained rant against the church in The Antichrist. Smile
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:27 pm

An honest mind does not discard rationality under the guise of accuracy or the pretense of precision, faith is an emotion more than a belief and anyone who tries to justify their faith through semantic evasion is simply dishonest in mind and heart.

Reading Texas reminds me of listening to William Lane Craig, both specialize in flatulence and verbosity, its a smokescreen that hides the plain fact there is no evidence of a creator never mind the Jewish version. They concentrate on proving that their myth cannot be disproven by any means hoping this deflects their own unproven claims, then they claim a stalemate.

A precise mind does not view the claims of creationism and common ancestry as some kind of philosophical tie, its so one sided its nearly a walk over.

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:15 pm


Atheism is not mandated by a Supreme Being to spread the faith

Neither is religion;theyve made it up, inorder to believe;.atheists have made up what they think God is, so they can disbelieve (thats almosr weirder than religion,BTW)


Is there any more or less value(virtue?), in the negative as opposed to the positive stance?......dunno, but I cant be bothered to invent a thing,simply to 'not believe in it'..........Neither can I take seriously the daftness which religion has spawned; I cant honestly claim to be agnostic,either, as I have what we all have, to go on- my own experience of being alive..............its MARVELLOUS!!!!(and I dont have to keep looking under stones for something odd to believe in,or even imagining something odder to 'not believe in')Very Happy


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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:21 pm


Is there any more or less value(virtue?), in the negative as opposed to the positive stance?.

Reality has a value, at least we have stopped sacrificing humans to make it rain.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:52 pm

tlttf wrote:-
The greatest thing to happen up to now was probably Henry V111 telling the Pope to f8ck off. Yes it was for selfish reasons, but it broke the overpowering stench of Catholicism from overpowering the world
You really ought to try reading some history books before posting such remarks. To all intents and purposes, Henry VIII set up the English Catholic Church. He wasn't interested in reform, and within six years of his death, his eldest daughter had restored Catholicism, albeit briefly. Try not to equate "the world" with England, we should leave that to UKIP morons. Oh sorry, I forgot....

The power of Catholicism was reduced because Erasmus exposed its many abuses, after which Luther, Calvin and Zwingli developed separate churches based on the Bible rather than the word of the Bishop of Rome. However, as it has 1.2 billion members in the world today, the Catholic Church is still very influential.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:45 pm

"....there IS a message in atheism that goes beyond simply not believing in gods. "

Would it perhaps be accurate to call that simple ignorance?

Simple ignorance seems to be an essential component of worshippers in several Major Religions of the world.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:56 pm

I would agree that religions are hazardous to human independence and self belief. However there is this thought which comes to mind. Religions in all its flaws does not conclude that Jehovah or Yahweh did not exist at all.



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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Shirina on Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:00 pm

atheists have made up what they think God is, so they can disbelieve (thats almosr weirder than religion,BTW)
Actually, that's not really true. Atheists have never "made up" a God just to disbelieve said God. That really wouldn't make any sense. Believers have hundreds (if not thousands) of versions of God. Each one is slightly different from the others. Quite often, believers will ignore certain parts of their holy books or certain things their priests say because it conflicts with their own beliefs - hence why there are somewhere around 20,000 different denominations of Christianity. Each one believes something different: Some adhere to the Old Testament, others the New. Some put more stock in Jesus, others still think God is mean and wrathful. Some speak in Tongues and writhe around on the floor, others handle poisonous snakes and others still simply sit in a pew and listen to a sermon. Others think a cracker and wine turns into the flesh of Jesus, some wave incense around, some still like to keep women under wraps. It's impossible to really put a finger on what God is and what God wants. Ask any two people and you're liable to get two different answers.

There is absolutely no need for atheists to invent yet another God when we already have so many to choose from. Atheists will, however, often focus on the holy books because that is where the majority of information about God comes from, be it the Bible, the Torah, or the Koran. It may seem like atheists are inventing Gods, but we're not. We will change our point of attack depending on who we're arguing with because each believer and each denomination is slightly different.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Shirina on Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:09 pm

Regions in all its flaws does not conclude that Jehovah or Yahweh did not exist at all.
Of course religions would never posit that the God they worship doesn't exist.

Athiests believe in truth (small 't') which essentially states that we understand truth can be fluid. If really good evidence was presented to us about anything, including God, we would change our minds.

Believers believe in Truth (capital 'T') which is an absolute. God exists. Period. And it doesn't matter at all if there is no evidence. In fact, they will sometimes blatantly ignore evidence (i.e. Big Bang, evolution) to maintain their absolutist version of Truth.

There is no more evidence to support the existence of Yahweh and Jehovah than there is to support the existence of Zeus, Aphrodite, Jupiter, Mithra, Odin, Loki, Aji-Shiki, Sheva, Kali, Ganesh, Kui Xing, Ishtar, Anshu, Damkina, Loviatar, Mielikki, and thousands of other gods.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:10 pm

Tosh wrote: ....

Well God is doing a rather shitty job ....


How does an atheist credibly comment on a notional being whose existence is presumably not admitted?
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:49 pm

There is enough evidence or parallel coincidences of ancient nations to investigate scientifically,and I believe this is being done by many. Myths as we call them means maybe true or part true,although I understand your sensible logic I also think for one example; It is now known that even in our most advanced technologies and the largest of machines,we are not able to reproduce buildings like the pyramids or move about the collosal stones in Baalbek. The greatest of the Baalbek stones, is considered to be 1200 tons.


It has been known that some of the Gods you mentioned may in fact be the same person with more than one name.Simple folk then would believe many things especially Gods,beyond their comprehension.


Even giants are mention in biblical texts. It may or may not be the case,but this is enough to wonder these Gods apparently existence.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:03 pm

Well God is doing a rather shitty job


compared with what?
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:09 pm

How does an atheist credibly comment on a notional being whose existence is presumably not admitted?

I do it all the time, its a form of empathy, anyway shut up and get back to counting my edits before I gas you.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:11 pm

Tosh wrote:
theres only one special person, ,often, --its you; in nfact, theres only one person, anyway....yes..it you again...............you have no evidence of the reality of anyone or anything outside yourself.............your senses arent exactly comprehensively helping in that respect...........

Reality is what we are conscious of, to deny the existence of our consciousness requires consciousness, this is known as an axiom.

Just so, but perhaps conciousness gets confused with perception,which is a secondary quality,that helps in making a living, but is rather deceptive when used to view reality(Reality?). Conciousness neednt include thought,intelligence, or any mental process at all...............
Oh ;look- here am I making bald unsubstantiated statements as if making them makes them true....shame on me, Eggy, and I thought I was a philosopher............. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:11 pm

compared with what?

The label on the can.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:12 pm

God didnt stick the label on the can......religioyus freaks did.....
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:13 pm

God didnt promise anything at all...............the christians put words in his mouth................
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:14 pm

and the muslims
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:14 pm

and the atheists! Very Happy
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:15 pm

gotta go..............got a headache..(really!) love to all.................
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:18 pm

There is enough evidence or parallel coincidences of ancient nations to investigate scientifically,and I believe this is being done by many. Myths as we call them means maybe true or part true,although I understand your sensible logic I also think for one example; It is now known that even in our most advanced technologies and the largest of machines,we are not able to reproduce buildings like the pyramids or move about the collosal stones in Baalbek. The greatest of the Baalbek stones, is considered to be 1200 tons.

Myths does not mean maybe or part true, have you been drinking you young whippersnapper, there are many things old johnny foreigner used to get up to that are best left to the imagination.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:28 pm

God didnt stick the label on the can......religioyus freaks did.....

I hope you are not implying Genesis 1:1 is not the word of Elohim, heaven forbid.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:16 pm

Myths does not mean maybe or part true, have you been drinking you young whippersnapper, there are many things old johnny foreigner used to get up to that are best left to the imagination.


The above is a myth for a start. Some truth here and there. I am often told I am drinking when I post. Strictly as a medicinal remedy only.

Wink
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:28 pm

How lovely to see you back, jsmythe - always a sensible comment - and on this occasion rather a nice photo
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:57 pm

I was about 14 when I read Chariots of the Gods by the charlatan Eric VD, at first it seemed quite plausible but after a little research the truth out. Aliens were yet another example of us explaining phenomena with unseen agents with intentions.

As far as I can see the only hep the aliens supposedly gave us, was to enable us to worship them in grandiose style ?
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:34 pm

wouldnt you, if you were an alien?.......see 'The man who would be king',with sean connery and michael caine
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:36 pm

Tosh wrote:
God didnt stick the label on the can......religioyus freaks did.....

I hope you are not implying Genesis 1:1 is not the word of Elohim, heaven forbid.

course it aint..I wrote that, ages ago, when I was between beers; never thought anyone would take it to heart.....................
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:40 pm

Oh but they do, egginbonce. Taken to heart and treated in the same way as any other ingested material - ultimately excreted in a personal way that is not necessarily attractive to spectators.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:28 am

well, it looked good when I wrote it ;in fact, I commented on my behalf.......'and he saw that it was good'...................so dunno what you lot have done with it in the meantime..........................maybe I shoulodnt have put my feet up on the 7th day.................
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Shirina on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:47 am

Aliens were yet another example of us explaining phenomena with unseen agents with intentions.

Yep, because people were moving around and lifting blocks that weigh more than a modern guided missile destroyer with ropes and brute strength. I think believing in God is more plausible.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:17 am

Yep, because people were moving around and lifting blocks that weigh more than a modern guided missile destroyer with ropes and brute strength. I think believing in God is more plausible.

Maybe the aliens used their space ship as a giant crane to build an idol to themselves, funny how all the inexplicable achievements happen to be in the construction industry......except for toilets. We know HOW humans built most of their constructions but the few that still baffle us are suddenly the work of giant aliens with giant egos.

These aliens just happen to turn up when humans had bottle necked into urban dwellings with farming, domesticate animals and writing capability.

We suddenly had plenty of spare time on our hands to think, plan and experiment, and most of our scheming went into constructing buildings, walls, moats, dams, irrigation devices and temples of worship.

Its not rocket science they were teaching us, just geometry.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by egginbonce on Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:54 am

well. we dont believe in God, magic, aliens, oranything else which could bridge the rather large gap that we live with, so why should we be happy with whats left,ie we're here ,and have no idea how or why,we're going...where?..........and dont know how or why, and also,we're(YOURE!) gonna die(and you can make all the movie industry noises you like about how thats cool and you dont mind; but you DO, really- the only reason you mightnt is if you knew for sure that it was nt an end).
So how do we square the circle?.its easy to see how so many fantasies are clung to so clingily..............PS.science wont save us from any of the above, will it;neither will religion, tho it does seem to make an attempt to address the issue;its not 'God people are vothered about, its being able to reach our and touch their own inevitable demise, but not knowing whats going on....
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egginbonce

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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by Tosh on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:14 am

Grasshopper, I do not live with any large gap, my mind has created its own purpose and significance and lives a story of meaning that enables me to accept my finiteness with humility. Of course I mind death but since there is nothing I can do about it, its a pointless exercise.

....and please don't you start with all that who, what, when, where nonsense.
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

Post by snowyflake on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:27 am

well. we dont believe in God, magic, aliens, oranything else which could bridge the rather large gap that we live with, so why should we be happy with whats left,ie we're here ,and have no idea how or why,we're going...where?..........and dont know how or why, and also,we're(YOURE!) gonna die(and you can make all the movie industry noises you like about how thats cool and you dont mind; but you DO, really- the only reason you mightnt is if you knew for sure that it was nt an end).

CAM down eggy. Smile You have to find your own purpose for living and in spite of what some believers think, you can actually be a good person, loving, caring, compassionate, productive, decent and moral (quite often more so) than a life filled with superstitious fear.

Be happy and make others happy. Smile
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Re: Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

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