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What next for Libya?

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Gaddafi killed...somehow people will try to give Obama credit for it

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:52 pm

Reading through the comments on sites like CNN, MSNBC and MSN, it's insane how many idiots think Obama "got" Gaddafi. The French have been the lead in the NATO efforts in Libya and it was the French who bombed the convoy...allowing the LIBYAN PEOPLE to finally end Gadhafi's run.

The Libyan people deserve ALL the credit for ending Gaddafi's rule...while NATO (more specifically, the French) deserve the lion's share of credit for helping.

After all, it was only months ago that Obama was literally shaking hands and laughing it up with Gaddafi...an event which literally sickened my stomach to see the President of the United States gladhanding Gaddafi like he was a campaign donor...a man known to be a global terrorist and an iron-fisted dictator who carried out atrocities against his own people.

I've finally come to realize this glaring fact...Obama supporters are delusional and irrational in attributing "great things" to Obama.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by astra on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:06 pm

I think that now OZ you are getting the hang of Phil J's anti-cross-atlantic angst!
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by Shirina on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:50 pm

I've finally come to realize this glaring fact...Obama supporters are delusional and irrational in attributing "great things" to Obama.

LOL! Perhaps that's because it's the only way to find equilibrium. After all, the conservatives won't give Obama credit for ANYTHING positive (although they're more than happy to give him all of the blame when something bad happens).

One of the more blatant examples was having to listen to conservatives complain for two solid years about there being too many government regulations on businesses - which was all Obama's fault, of course. But when Obama decided not to impose even more government regulations on businesses, conservatives bashed him for it. This is what passes for logic on the Right side of the aisle.

So I guess Obama supporters have to balance it out by giving Obama the credit for everything since conservatives won't give him credit for anything. Well, except for the bad things.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by witchfinder on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:54 pm

All western leaders do deals, do trade and shake hands with despots, dictators and leaders no better than common criminals, have a look at how Saudi Aribia is run and governed, or look at human rights issues in Uganda, Nigeria or Jordan.

The president of the United States had to take Gadaffi at face value and hope for the best, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair shook hands with Gadaffi after he signed a deal not to pursue developing weapons of mass destruction, the same applies, we may not exactly like how Gadaffi governed Libya, but he governed and you dealt with him or you dident deal with Libya at all.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by GreatNPowerfulOz on Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:12 am

Really...someone...anyone who is an Obamanut...please explain how Obama deserved the credit for this? Try to actually use facts. This ought to be good.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by Ivan on Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:36 pm

Cameron is certainly trying to claim some of the credit, despite squandering a quarter of a billion pounds on the Libyan venture - when the UK is supposed to be skint. I suppose he hasn't got much else to crow about after over seventeen months of his sleazy and incompetent government.

Whilst on the subject of Gaddafi, what do members think of the press coverage of his death?

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/10/today-papers-death-capture

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/oct/21/muammar-gaddafi-national-newspapers?intcmp=239
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by jackthelad on Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:00 pm

The credit for the removal of Gaddafi must go to the Libyan people after all it is they who have fought and died in that removal. I am pleased
they had some assistance from NATO, with the air cover, from Britain, France, America and Demark, with some assistance from Quatar. 250 million pounds they reckon it cost Britain, all that and more will be recovered when we assist Libya and the people of Libya to rebuild there war torn country. Now i am not a lover of Cameron and the Conservatives, but with backing the Libyan people with their revolution and helping them to free themselves from a tyrant, he has backed a winner. Not one British serviceman or woman lost there life, unlike Blairs debacle in Iraq. This was a battle that Britain and Europe will benefit from along with the people of Libya.
Some people are calling the revolutionary forces barbarians for killing Gaddafi, well they have never been on the recieving end of of what he was meteing out. I personally think they did the right thing, the world knows he is as guilty as hell, a trail would have been a farce, if tried in the European courts he would be found guilty and sent to prison. A thorn in the side of Libya, while is supporters try to free him. A trail in Libya, well he would have got the same result as Saddam Hussain, a rope round is neck, but trouble from is supporters while still alive. This way was clean and stopped any future problems, he got what he deserved, like what he as always shown, no mercy. I remember what the Italians did to Musolini in 1944, hung him in the street, no trail. Swift justice is always the best. There was no doubt about their guilt, so be happy that another sinner has bitten the dust.
News reporting was spot on, show is dead body of to the world, proves to is supporters the evil sod is no more. It's a pity we never saw the body of that other murdering bastard Bin Laden.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by astra on Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:32 pm

I see the Lawyers from the UN are crying in their calvados about the lost opportunity of a protracted and lucrative (for themselves) trial!
Only hope the bloke who pulled the trigger keeps his head down under the parapet!
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:35 pm

re: Message #1 by GreatNPowerfulOz Yesterday at 7:52 pm

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by Shirina on Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:04 pm

Really...someone...anyone who is an Obamanut...please explain how Obama deserved the credit for this?

I'm not saying Obama should receive the credit. I'm just giving conservatives a hard time for not giving Obama the credit for anything at all ... I mean nothing whatsoever. They're more than willing to blame him for bad things that happened before his presidency but refuse to credit him with good things that happened during his presidency. That seems a bit strange, don't you think?
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by gator on Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:39 pm

I'm just giving conservatives a hard time for not giving Obama the credit for anything at all ... I mean nothing whatsoever.
 
Has he ever done anything that deserves credit? I have also asked this question on American forums - not the brain dead fanatical left wing forums where they think that Bammy is the world's saviour but just regualr folk type of forums. Strange enough, I never get a satisfactory answer. Conclusion: the guy is as bad as he appears to be and is, in fact, the worst prez the US has ever had.
 
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:04 am

and is, in fact, the worst prez the US has ever had.

Well, I think I'll take the opinion of heavy weight historians and presidential scholars who rank him about average. Obama hasn't done anything extraordinary (not that he really could given an opposition that would rather see the country fail than Obama succeed), but neither has he done anything so heinously wrong as to rank him the worst ever. That's simply a hyperbolic statement. It's like claiming the movie you just saw was "the worst movie ever!" when you know damn well you've seen far worse. I also find it rather odd that heavy weight scholars and presidential historians actually HAVE rated Bush as one of the top three worst presidents ever, and lo and behold, we just happen to conveniently elect a president even worse than Bush the following term. Those are some statistically long odds.

And to give you an idea of just how STUPID the opposition is, the Tea Party recently released a pledge for small business owners. This pledge is urging business owners to not hire anyone (even when they can or should) in protest of a Democratic government. With millions of people out of work and jobs being the number one issue right now, why on God's green earth would I vote for any of these people? It goes to show you how they don't care a whit about the American people.
I never get a satisfactory answer.

The reason, I'm sure, why you do not receive a satisfactory answer is because a) no answer would EVER be satisfactory to someone who actually believes Obama is "the worst prez the US ever had" and b) no one wants to play the "set 'em up so you can knock 'em down" game. We all know what this entails. I give you an accomplishment and you give the credit to Bush, Reagan, or a Republican congress ... or you claim it's not really an accomplishment because you don't like what he achieved. Then I have to fish for another achievement and the process begins again. It's a lot of typing for a predictable response. Anyone who thinks Obama is the worst either doesn't know their presidential history or is just so vehemently opposed to Obama that rationality has long since fled - at which point it is like debating the merits of atheism with an Al-Qaeda suicide bomber.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by gator on Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:52 am

One of our local Canadian commentators raised an interesting issue.
 
Sicne 1776 when the USA was formed, it took 235 years to go from zero debt to the ten trillion dollar debt load that they had at the end of GW Bush's time in the Oval Office. In the two and a half years since then, Bammy has raised the debt from ten trillion range to FOURTEEN trillion and change. And what does civilization have to show for it? Bumpkiss, diddly squat, zero, nada, nuttin. How can the leader of a country raise the debt by over forty percent in two and a half years and have nothing to show for it and NOT be called the worst leader in that country's history?
 
And of course, there are the pages and pages of other stuff as well, but this is a good start.
 
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by ROB on Sat Oct 22, 2011 7:04 am


Wise words from Witchfinder.

witchfinder wrote:
All western leaders do deals, do trade and shake hands with despots, dictators and leaders no better than common criminals, have a look at how Saudi Aribia is run and governed, or look at human rights issues in Uganda, Nigeria or Jordan.

The president of the United States had to take Gadaffi at face value and hope for the best, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair shook hands with Gadaffi after he signed a deal not to pursue developing weapons of mass destruction, the same applies, we may not exactly like how Gadaffi governed Libya, but he governed and you dealt with him or you dident deal with Libya at all.

A few other Western leaders who have of necessity dealt with Gadhafi:


  1. George W. Bush;

  2. David Cameron;

  3. Gordon Brown;

  4. Bill Clinton.

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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:42 am

How can the leader of a country raise the debt by over forty percent in two and a half years and have nothing to show for it and NOT be called the worst leader in that country's history?

You're looking at it from the wrong point of view. If the nation was prosperous and Obama dumped a lot of money into the economy, then I would expect to see some sterling results. However, the reality is that the ship was sinking and the money kept it afloat. It wasn't meant to turn a rowboat into a luxury trans-Atlantic cruise ship.

The problem here is that it is impossible to really quantify things that were prevented. Without experiencing an alternate time line, it's easy to assume Obama's spending did nothing when, in fact, nothing happening was actually a pretty good deal. I personally believe that things would have been phenomenally worse if nothing at all had been done. But we can't measure that without a Delorean and a flux capacitor.

To me, saying we have nothing to show for the expenditure is like complaining to the bomb squad that nothing happened. Well ... in that case, you didn't WANT anything to happen. Obama was lucky he managed to save the status quo.

But ... because averted disasters are hard to quantify, the field is wide open for the haters of Obama to be negative and the supporters of Obama to be positive. Neither side can prove their allegations.

You also might find this pie chart interesting. It shows the presidential contributions to the national debt:

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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by Shirina on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:42 am

Sooo.... does anyone remember when I said this just a few posts up?

After all, the conservatives won't give Obama credit for ANYTHING positive (although they're more than happy to give him all of the blame when something bad happens).

Well, I hate to crow about being right, but, well ... I am. Take a look:

Republicans criticize Obama over Iraq withdrawal

Mitt Romney issued a scathing rebuke Friday of President Obama's decision to withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq by year's end, joining a chorus of Republicans critical of the president's decision.

“President Obama’s astonishing failure to secure an orderly transition in Iraq has unnecessarily put at risk the victories that were won through the blood and sacrifice of thousands of American men and women," Romney said in a statement. "The unavoidable question is whether this decision is the result of a naked political calculation or simply sheer ineptitude in negotiations with the Iraqi government."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/21/8433344-republicans-criticize-obama-over-iraq-withdrawal

LOL?

I mean, really. First, Republicans try to claim that Obama should receive no credit for withdrawing the troops since he was merely following G.W. Bush's time table ... but now they are giving him the BLAME for withdrawing them which, as far as I know, still coincides with G.W. Bush's time table. I find it, uhm, remarkable that credit, which Obama shouldn't get, has turned into blame, which Obama should get.

Incredible, don't you think? I've tried my best in following Republican logic, but when I try to chart it, I always end up with something like this:

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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by witchfinder on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:18 am

Of course shirina is absolutely correct, and precisely the same situation exists here in the UK, with the onset of the credit crunch and banking crisis, some banks had to be rescued with government money, and the government at the time had to support an economy on the brink.

The collective action by governments around the world raised the debt of those countries, but it almost certainly averted disaster, probably a depression as against a recession, most of the worlds major banks were pulled back from bankruptcy, and major international corporations were saved from going under.

Here in the UK the Liberal Democratic Party more or less agreed with these actions, they accepted that it was necessary to save major banks, and to support the economy including industry, jobs and the livelyhoods of millions of ordinary, hard working people.

This particular political party is the third party of the UK, and after an indecisive general election last year, the Lib Dems went into an unholy coalition with the Conservatives.

What happened next realy defies belief, the leadership of the Lib Dems began criticising what the Labour government had done, they went into a complete and total reversal, became "yes" men for the Conservatives and helped to push through savage cuts to public spending, something they campaigned against during the election.

The result - One third of the membership of the Liberal Democrats left the party, the defeated Labour Party had a huge surge in membership, and the Lib Dems slumped in the opinion polls into single figures, at the next general election they will be decimated.

Unusual times create unusual outcomes, in both Canada and the UK politics is interesting, the emergence of the mildly socialist party in Canada, the downfall of the nationalists in Quebec is history in the making, and here in the UK the demise of the Liberal Democrats is a real possibility.

It goes to show that you cannot fool the people or tell lies - and if you do, you will pay the price
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What next for Libya?

Post by astradt1 on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:30 pm

With the news of the liberation of Libya and the now revelations of first the summary execution of Gaddaffi and todays of 53 bodies of executed Gaddaffi supporters.

The bodies of 53 loyalists of the Muammar Gaddafi regime were found after apparently being executed in a hotel in Sirte, a human rights group has announced.

“We found 53 decomposing bodies, apparently Gaddafi supporters, at an abandoned hotel in Sirte, and some had their hands bound behind their backs when they were shot,” Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch, who investigated the killings, said in a press release.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/africa/111024/53-gaddafi-loyalists-executions-sirte

And following frame by frame analysis of the extended video of Gaddaffi's capture which appears to show.....

Gaddafi sodomized: Video shows abuse frame by frame

SIRTE, Libya — An analysis of video obtained by GlobalPost from a rebel fighter who recorded the moment when Col. Muammar Gaddafi was first captured confirms that another rebel fighter, whose identity is unknown, sodomized the former leader as he was being dragged from the drainpipe where he had taken cover.

A frame by frame analysis of this exclusive GlobalPost video clearly shows the rebel trying to insert some kind of stick or knife into Gaddafi's rear end.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy

And the adoption of Sharia Law as the basis of all law in the new Libya.

Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, leader of the NTC, made the announcement Sunday that Libya has been liberated and that Sharia law would be the "basic source" of the legal code in the country.

“We are an Islamic country,” said Jalil, the NY Times reports. “We take the Islamic religion as the core of our new government. The constitution will be based on our Islamic religion.”

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/what-sharia-law-libya

Where are the members of Gaddaffi's all female bodyguard?

Are they alive, captive or dead?

These has been no mention of them since the start of this rebellion.­.........S­trange!!!!

The question has to be asked What Next For Libya and it's People?????
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by Shirina on Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:04 pm

It looks to me like Libya is going to turn into another fundamentalist Islamic state ruled by theocrats and hard-line religious leaders. Women will be oppressed just like in Saudi Arabia, they will most likely adopt an anti-Western foreign policy, and will quickly use oil money to rev up its military.

I really don't see anything good coming out of Libya in the future.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:51 pm

On the basis that "My enemy's enemy is my friend", a majority of Libyans found common cause in eliminating the Dictator.

Having succeeded, the components will now revert to tribal divisions which have existed for hundreds of years.
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What next for Libya?

Post by jennym42 on Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:19 pm

oftenwrong wrote:On the basis that "My enemy's enemy is my friend", a majority of Libyans found common cause in eliminating the Dictator.

Having succeeded, the components will now revert to tribal divisions which have existed for hundreds of years.
Iraq all over again.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by jackthelad on Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:37 pm

jennym42 wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:On the basis that "My enemy's enemy is my friend", a majority of Libyans found common cause in eliminating the Dictator.

Having succeeded, the components will now revert to tribal divisions which have existed for hundreds of years.
Iraq all over again.


Britain was tribal once, all they need is the chance to work and pull together collectively, and not being dictated to by one person. Democracy only works if the people want it to, i think the Libyan people want it to work. Just don't try to rush them, take it slow and get it right, no rushed botched job.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:34 pm

Britain is still tribal. There are Londoners, and then there are the under-privileged.
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Re: What next for Libya?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:08 am

What next for Libya?

A plague of Locusts, apparently. The UN World Food Organisation reports that Libya's normal pest-control routines were interrupted by recent events, which means that this year's crops are seriously threatened.

http://www.afrol.com/articles/12780
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Re: What next for Libya?

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