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Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

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Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Tashski on Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

(Not sure if this has been brought up before, apologies if it has but I couldn't see anything like it on the list)

I just read an article on the Guardian website (I retweeted it on Twitter) that discusses the ongoing problems on the left of politics in the UK. It asks whether the left need a leftist version of UKIP to effectively challenge Labour's dominance of the left. Reading the article and the interviews they took for the article it seems that the writer thinks it is possible due to the fragmentation of the relationship between the unions and the Labour Party, however, it is unlikely to happen any time soon.

so what do we all think? Is it needed? Is it indeed possible?

Personally I think it is needed but I'm not sure how likely it is to happen or indeed if it would be successful.

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:49 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The Daily Mail is ideal for those who can't form an opinion without being told what to think.

After what they have said today about Ed Milibands father just proves that there is a need for control on the newspapers, after the Levenson inquiry for the phone hacking of Milly Dowlers phone giving her family false hope that she was still alive plus all the others and that is before the computor hacking just shows how nasty the media can be I say its now time for a code of moral & ethics to be imposed on all media sources.

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by sickchip on Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:36 pm

If the Daily Mail really want to discuss the past, perhaps they should tell their readers about the paper's history.

The Daily Mail supported the British Union of Fascists during the 1930's and ran such headlines as HURRAH FOR THE BLACKSHIRTS.

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.....and it would seem the Daily Mail are still supporting fascism.



The Daily Mail is far more right-wing than people even imagine. It is an extremist right-wing propaganda rag.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by blueturando on Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:33 am

Very poor showing from the Mail and its made them look extremely stupid. Not sure if anyone has read the readers comments, but the majority are against the Mail taking this line on Miliband....Me included

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:54 am

Blue Thank you for standing up for what is right and proper, the Daily Fails attack on Ed Milibands father has just shown to the public WHY the newspapers need to have SOME regulation to guide their Morals & Ethics of the industry.
 
But all they have done is BOOST Eds own ratings they have passed Davy boys he is around 12 points ahead of him and people are seeing him as the UKs next PM. My parents always said if you did not have any respect for the dead you had none for the living, and the Tories have proved this time after time, us lefties have always said the Tories would play dirty in the run up to the general election and this has proved us all correct, what we did not know is how LOW they would STOOP but they can go no lower, what has made me laugh is the Daily Fails own past has quite a few stains by supporting Mosley's Blackshirts and even agreeing with the NAZIS in the late 1930s and maybe they still do.
 
I will say this has Lynton Crosby's prints all over it, and it's possible this is what they're doing to Ed because of what happened on Sunday the people of the UK found their voice at last, but the right wing have scored an own goal so I hope they are very pleased with themselves, all they have done is turned the general public against them.:yeahthat:
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:41 am

It's not a new idea. You wouldn't expect new ideas from the Daily Wail.

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Ivan on Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:39 pm

Redflag wrote:-
My parents always said if you did not have any respect for the dead you had none for the living…… it's possible this is what they're doing to Ed because of what happened on Sunday.
 
‘The Daily Mail’ first published this filth on Saturday, before the Manchester demonstration, so it was probably because Ed Miliband caught the public mood in his conference speech last week. It shows two things: that the sewer tabloids are beginning to realise that Labour is on course to win in 2015, and that as they can't dig up any dirt on Ed Miliband, they're trying to denigrate him through his late father.
 
I don’t respect everyone who is dead, do you? I’m sure you have no respect for Thatcher. The difference between attacking Thatcher and Ralph Miliband is that one was a vile politician who sold off much of the state and created vast inequality, while the other was a refugee from the Nazis who never sought public office and was an accomplished writer and philosopher. One was a warmonger and the other was a war veteran. If anyone hated Britain - and the vast majority of its people - it was Thatcher; she even put us at risk by allowing Ronald Reagan to station cruise missiles here and bomb Libya from our bases.
 
(P.S. Please be aware, Redflag, that some trolls like to pretend to be oh-so-reasonable good guys one minute and then revert to being bastards the next, especially if they’ve been down the pub at night. It’s a standard technique designed to confuse people like you who have integrity.)
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:56 pm

Thank you so much Ivan for reminding me of an incident from a while back and understand you keeping me on the right track, I never thought about how I celebrated when I was told the Old Witch was dead but it did remind of last Sunday and one of the chants Maggie Maggie Maggie Dead Dead Dead Cameron Out Out Out.   Since I have been on this forum you and others have never steered me wrong so I will take what you have said and keep it at the forefront of my thoughts cheers
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by ghost whistler on Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:39 pm

oftenwrong wrote:The Daily Mail is ideal for those who can't form an opinion without being told what to think.
And, disgustingly, it remains popular.

All the criticism, justified, about their attack on Miliband senior, just serves as a platform. That's how twisted things are. It isn't journalism but churnalism anymore.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:15 pm

It also proves, gw, that the newspaper business DOES need regulating, though I can imagine the regulation that the Tories will put in, since most of the Tory MPs have their noses up Dacre's or Murdoch's butt.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by ghost whistler on Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:03 pm

Redflag wrote:It also proves, gw, that the newspaper business DOES need regulating, though I can imagine the regulation that the Tories will put in, since most of the Tory MPs have their noses up Dacre's or Murdoch's butt.
Indeed, the media in this country is totally out of control. I abhor censorship (which this isn't), however these newspapers cannot be allowed to continue like this. Campbell supposedly tweeted Dacre's address...I wouldn't lose any sleep if his windows were to be put through. Not that I condone such things happening to such lovely people.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by sickchip on Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:15 pm

The Daily Mail isn't a newspaper. It is essentially an extreme right propaganda sheet promoting, and making excuses, for vile Tory policies to a readership primarily consisting of Little middle Englanders.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:55 pm

sickchip wrote:The Daily Mail isn't a newspaper. It is essentially an extreme right propaganda sheet promoting, and making excuses, for vile Tory policies to a readership primarily consisting of Little middle Englanders.

The reason for the slur on the Miliband family is as plain as the nose on your face sickchip, they could see that it will be Ed Miliband that will be the next PM of the UK and the Daily Fail knows Ed would not let them away with doing anything they like.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by ghost whistler on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:24 pm

I was thinking the same thing today.

It is amusing watching the tory response as they are caught between agreeing with Dacre's disgusting worldview and defending a fellow politician out of self preservation.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:44 pm

Quite so! We are all grateful to e.g. The Daily Telegraph for its exposure of MP's expenses swindles a couple of years ago. The sort of reporting that suggests that "PRESS FREEDOM" should be paramount.

Unfortunately that then allows Editors to control Parliament by rumour and innuendo, so that every Politician believes his/her career to be dependant upon the favourable disposition of a political hack or lobbyist.

Where does the middle ground lie?
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:03 am

That OW is the Million Dollar question, but an answer must be found otherwise the Lord Leveson inquiry was a waste of his time and our money, the phone hacking and PC hacking will just carry on as before and over the last week as the Daily Fail has proved the press will get away with bloody murder. But middle ground must be found where the press get their freedom and the politicians are free from threat from the press barons.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:42 pm

The Leveson Enquiry recommendations will apparently receive consideration next week by The Privy Council, which will decide whether to implement them by Law.

Anyone know what a Privy Council might be when it's at home?

Anyone care to speculate whether the ball will be kicked into the long grass?
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:36 pm

It fills me with sadness OW but your last line is about right.:yeahthat:
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Ivan on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:41 pm

I hope Ed Miliband is taking note of this:-
 
Britons more likely to support a party committed to public ownership
 
A new poll conducted by Survation has found that 46% of voters would be more likely to vote for a party promoting public ownership instead of outsourcing and privatisation by default. Only 11% of voters were less likely to support such a party, suggesting that the centre ground of politics has shifted away from the privatisation of utilities. 43% said it wouldn’t make a difference to their vote. 63% of Labour voters, 52% of Liberal Democrat voters, 49% of UKIP voters, and even 25% of Conservative voters, said they would be more likely to vote for such a party.
 
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by boatlady on Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:26 am

Lets hope they all remember that in the ballot box
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by ghost whistler on Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:54 am

Ivan wrote:I hope Ed Miliband is taking note of this:-
 
Britons more likely to support a party committed to public ownership
 
 http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/10/07/britons-more-likely-to-support-a-party-committed-to-public-ownership/
 
But Labour will not promise to renationalise anything, particularly the Royal Mail which is now in the hands of the City.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:01 am

"Royal Mail sell-off could cost taxpayer over £10 billion"

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Some promises could be quite expensive to keep.

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:50 am

oftenwrong wrote:"Royal Mail sell-off could cost taxpayer over £10 billion"

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Some promises could be quite expensive to keep.

 
Not if Ed Miliband was to announce it today that he would Re-Nationalize the Royal Mail if he wins the 2015 general election and there will be "NO COMPENSATION" that would stop the sale from going through who would risk their money?
 
It has been announced that the Tories are selling it off at a knock down price so people will make a 40% profit as soon as they buy, well seeing the Tories are in power making sure the rich and wealthy are being taken care of while the rest of us can go into the workhouses.:yeahthat:
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by blueturando on Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:59 pm

Not if Ed Miliband was to announce it today that he would Re-Nationalize the Royal Mail if he wins the 2015 general election and there will be "NO COMPENSATION" that would stop the sale from going through who would risk their money?
I am sure that would be against some sort of EU regulation, so he would have his hands tied. Simply put, there should not be a Royal Mail sell off at all...why sell a business that is making a profit and get the tax payer to take on the pension deficit? I makes no sense to me

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:22 pm

MSN has conducted an unofficial poll concerning the Royal Mail privatisation.


69 % replied:
I'm opposed to the Royal Mail sell-off
(8,098 votes)

So much for democratic government.

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:07 pm

blueturando wrote:
Not if Ed Miliband was to announce it today that he would Re-Nationalize the Royal Mail if he wins the 2015 general election and there will be "NO COMPENSATION" that would stop the sale from going through who would risk their money?
I am sure that would be against some sort of EU regulation, so he would have his hands tied. Simply put, there should not be a Royal Mail sell off at all...why sell a business that is making a profit and get the tax payer to take on the pension deficit? I makes no sense to me
Any chance you could have a word in the ear of your gov't blue, I do not think the EU could say anything blue if the Labour party stood up and announced that if anybody was thinking about buying it they would be doing so fully warned about what was coming in May 2015, and it has now came out this gov't is selling it off by 40% cheaper than what it is worth but that is so that Tory donors and friends of the party can make money of the backs of OUR public services payback for pouring money into Tory party funds.
 
But I would remind the Tories that 70% of the UK public do not want this sale just like OUR NHS its an even bigger % of the UK, so at the moment they have so many people of the UK that will not be voting for them in the general election in May 2015, even if they use the money raised from the sale of Royal Mail as tax breaks on the run up to the G.E. hoping that people will vote for them so they can get back into power so that the Tories may be able to go back to their nasty ways because they will and then the people of the UK will see exactly what they want to happen in the UK WORKHOUSES will be back.
 
But I can assure any Tories that long before the run up to the general election I WILL BE OUT THERE REMINDING PEOPLE OF THE UK EXACTLY WHAT THE TORIES HAVE DONE TO THE UK AND ITS PEOPLE.:yeahthat:
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by blueturando on Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:36 pm

Red....Unfortunately once the Royal Mail is a Privately owned company no government is going to be able to renationalise it. They would be in breach of EU law and shareholders would be able to take the government to the european court leading to hefty compensation and legal bills.

I had a word with Cameron this morning, but he was too busy filling out Sam Cams application for shares Shocked

Maybe Ed should come out to the voting public with a 5 point Left Wing plan that he would put in place if voted into government, which would include renationalising certain industries like the Royal Mail. If the argument can be made that this is a good thing for the country, then he should shout from the roof tops....Don't you think?

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Phil Hornby on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:15 pm

There may come a day when the British public regrets allowing the Tory Party to sell the country's assets. But it will have been that public's forebears who stood by while it happened.

One would feel less concerned were it not for the fact that all this was being done in the name of pure political dogma.

 Someday, when the name of the Conservative Party is mentioned, those hearing it will spit on the floor. Many do even now...
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Penderyn on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:23 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:Someday, when the name of the Conservative Party is mentioned, those hearing it will spit on the floor. Many do even now...
 
You mean there are people who DON'T?   Bloody South-East England!
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by ghost whistler on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:58 pm

blueturando wrote:Red....Unfortunately once the Royal Mail is a Privately owned company no government is going to be able to renationalise it. They would be in breach of EU law and shareholders would be able to take the government to the european court leading to hefty compensation and legal bills.

I had a word with Cameron this morning, but he was too busy filling out Sam Cams application for shares Shocked

Maybe Ed should come out to the voting public with a 5 point Left Wing plan that he would put in place if voted into government, which would include renationalising certain industries like the Royal Mail. If the argument can be made that this is a good thing for the country, then he should shout from the roof tops....Don't you think?
I hope that's not true.

Miliband is useless. He's had open goal after open goal and can barely scratch a lead in the polls against the most hideous government in memory. Two cheeks of the same arse, to quote galloway.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Penderyn on Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:12 pm

ghost whistler wrote:I hope that's not true. Miliband is useless. He's had open goal after open goal and can barely scratch a lead in the polls against the most hideous government in memory. Two cheeks of the same arse, to quote galloway.
 
The problem is, how do you 'triangulate' standing up for British people and grovelling to bankers?   We ordinary people don't fully appreciate the intellectual problems faced by our masters.   Would you want them financed by a lot of bloody workers?
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:23 am

blueturando wrote:Red....Unfortunately once the Royal Mail is a Privately owned company no government is going to be able to renationalise it. They would be in breach of EU law and shareholders would be able to take the government to the european court leading to hefty compensation and legal bills.

I had a word with Cameron this morning, but he was too busy filling out Sam Cams application for shares Shocked

Maybe Ed should come out to the voting public with a 5 point Left Wing plan that he would put in place if voted into government, which would include renationalising certain industries like the Royal Mail. If the argument can be made that this is a good thing for the country, then he should shout from the roof tops....Don't you think?
I thinkyou have misread my post Blue or I have not explained it correctly.

Before it is a done deal or any before the money has changed hands that would be the ideal time for Ed Miliband to stand up and tell the GREEDY BACKSTUDS BUY AT YOUR OWN PERIL because if in May 2015 I am elected into power (which he will be) I will Re-Nationalize Royal Mail. So they will have been warned well and truly and with the bankers & hedge managers clamouring for shares it proves what the Labour party have been saying IT IS UNDER PRICED, to the extent that it was supposed to be 70% to the BACKSTUDS and 30% to us plebs that maybe changed so BACKSTUD FEATURES can give more of the shares to Tory Donors friends and tax avoiders of the Tory party.:yeahthat: 
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by ghost whistler on Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:41 am

But he hasn't.

History will look back on this period and remark that even though they benefitted from a windfall in terms of economic conditions the Tories still couldn't muster a majority.

However the Labour party has allowed itself, through its rejection of its core principles, to be marginalised. They have failed to put forward a strong alternative and allowed themselves to be branded a socialist party by a media that has also painted socialism as the enemy of all. It's only when, as recently, the media goes too far that Labour get any traction. On almost every issue they have fought and failed for the centre ground which the media has programmed to be very right wing.

I hope, that with Byrne out of the picture, we might get some decent welfare thinking. But it's unlikely. Labour are as in bed with the private sector and, disgustingly, the likes of Unum. They are the ones largely repsonsible for the gutting of social security and are compelling the rabid privateers in government to turn us into the kind of socially bereft marketised nightmare that the US has become.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:43 am

Perhaps someone from the preceding commentaries, for balance,  would now like to expound upon the showing of left-wing opposition parties in every election during the 18 years between
1979 and 1997.

Whilst Callaghan, Foot, Kinnock, Smith and Beckett (!) stuck to Gaitskell's "Nationalise everything that moves" Clause Four requirement, the British electorate preferred the Devil it knew, and returned a Tory administration FOUR TIMES in succession at General Elections.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by blueturando on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:35 pm

I don't think the majority or the voting public have an appetite for true left wing policies, or a true left wing party. It has been many years since such a party was in power, as no one can say New Labour was left wing.
The world has also moved on. The number of true leftie countries in the world could probably be counted on one hand. Off the top of my head I can only think of Cuba, Venezuala and maybe you could add North Korea into the mix...although debatable.

For a country to adopt true left policies in the global economy we currently have would be suicidal.

Cuba....Although beautiful and vibrant, is full of crumbling buildings and poverty

Venezuala....Although they posses very high levels of natural resources, many of the people live below the povety line...How can this be?


Last edited by blueturando on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by blueturando on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:38 pm

Before it is a done deal or any before the money has changed hands that would be the ideal time for Ed Miliband to stand up and tell the GREEDY BACKSTUDS BUY AT YOUR OWN PERIL because if in May 2015 I am elected into power (which he will be) I will Re-Nationalize Royal Mail
It will be too late Red...The city boys will have made their quick profits and taken their pound of flesh long before the next GE. The sale of the Royal Mail should have been challenged in court by Labour and then maybe the process would have been drawn out long enough for Eds' words to actually mean something

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Ivan on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:50 pm

blueturando wrote:-
I don't think the majority or the voting public have an appetite for true left wing policies
 
There was an appetite for socialism in 1945, when Clement Attlee won a landslide for Labour against a successful war leader. There is evidence that the voters are once again ready for a real change, as the failures of world capitalism, and in particular the Friedmanite experiment of corporate fascism started by Pinochet, Reagan and Thatcher, become more and more apparent:-
 
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I suspect it's beginning to dawn on people that when the seventh richest country in the world has a million young people unemployed, terminally ill cancer patients being told to work, disabled people being kicked out of their homes and half a million people relying on foodbanks to eat, something is drastically wrong with the current way of doing things.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by bobby on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:18 pm

That's the problem Ivan, other than those who are directly effected or the few that involve themselves with Forums such as Cutting Edge, who else really knows the full extent of the damage done by this evil Tory Led Coalition.
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by tlttf on Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:52 pm

True bobby, however what would labour offer as an alternative. Bring in cheap labour again then up the benefits to those unable to find a job?

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Redflag on Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:32 pm

blueturando wrote: It will be too late Red...The city boys will have made their quick profits and taken their pound of flesh long before the next GE. The sale of the Royal Mail should have been challenged in court by Labour and then maybe the process would have been drawn out long enough for Eds' words to actually mean something
 
As too your proir post blue, why are the majority of people in the UK shouting for Re-Nationalization of Rail Gas Electric NHS now you answer that, if Ed was to announce today he would work to take these once public services back into public ownership watch the Labour lead shoot up well and truly past the EFFING BACKSTUD that calls himself UKs PM.  
 
Never say Never blue, its never too late for anything to the hedge fund managers and bankers we need to NAME & SHAME them all but not forgetting the two Prostitute parties; the Tories prostitutes itself to the bankers and big FATCAT Tory donors you know the ones I'm talking about the ones that hide their money from the tax man in off shore accounts.  The yellow prostitute party is no better I just wonder what Idiot features does to keep Cleggy in line and vote whatever he wants through the H.O.C, I only hope it has been worth it because his party will pay a very heavy price by the voting public. It has just been announced that Menzies Campbell will not be standing for Parliament in 2015, did he go or did his constituents push him?:yeahthat:
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:52 am

Apologies if I'm repeating what others have said before, but I'm new here, but isn't part of the reason that Royal Mail has so under priced that it will make it too expensive for a future Labour government to buy it back? I.e. the 'market price' will be around 40% more than the original capital raised (which will disappear into a black hole anyway, at a guess).
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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

Post by tlttf on Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:33 am

Welcome Dan,

Like most I was against the sell off, as for it disappearing the majority of the shares was sold to companies that hold our pension funds. The great winners would be those that managed to buy shares as an individual. Do we benefit (doubt it), do we lose out, I'm not sure of how it will affect us long term?

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Re: Does the UK need a 'true leftist' party?

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