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Governing body or executioner?

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Governing body or executioner?

Post by Redflag on Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

May 2010 saw David Cameron come to power in the UK and taking pride of position as PM ~ however over the past 3 years it may have been prudent to market him as the GRIM REAPER in training. With all the cuts being made from DWP, NHS and not to forget the addition of the bedroom tax, Cameron and his cohorts are chalking up quite a death toll, which raises the question of "Is he running the country or trying to get his Reaper qualification?" Then not forgetting his cohorts that make up his cabinet ministers, that would be perfectly suited to the 9 rings of Hell in Alighieri's Divine Comedy, rather than be placed strategically throughout positions of power in the UK.  
 
The centre point for this thread is about the casualties that have been caused by Cameron & Co. As mentioned above, the areas that have been subjected to brutality are those involving the most vulnerable in society, the punching bags of the Tory party ~ if you will...  As alarming as that claim is, what should be considered as more alarming is that there have been ACTUAL deaths at the hands of Cameron and the rest due to the "CUTS".  So at what stage does running a country mean you get to don a black cloak and scythe amd start down a road that kills people? The argument is used against gun companies or Tobacco giants they may not be the one to pull the trigger so to speak, but their responsiblity does not end there either.  
 
Welfare rerform death toll  Link for a list of 34 names that have died as a result of welfare reform.  The bedroom tax has now racked up a list of its own casualties too. Again Cameron dons his cloak and scythe and the the death toll rises at the hands of the Tory party. Fuel poverty will be the next on Death's list, with prices set to soar again over the coming Winter months, yet when pushed to step in, Cameron can only step in and assist the energy companies by cutting obligations even futher to OAP's and benefit claimants. Death in this case does not actually ride a white horse, more like a white spark from the energy companies... ALL THE WAY TO THE TORY PARTY COFFERS!
 
The grave's the market place where all must meet
Both rich and poor, as well as small and great;
If life were merchandise, that gold could buy,
The rich would live -- only the poor would die.  
(last paragraph from Death and the Lady  Lesley Nelson Burns)

Seeing this in black and white makes the intention of the tory party undeniable.  
 
Finally the NHS cuts have also racked up enough casualties too, 20 billion taken from the budget 5,000 nurses now unemployed and being admitted into any NHS hospital has become like something you would find on a novelty game show, all the pain of injury, however just minus the audience laughing at your discomfort.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:30 am

Mel wrote:
If that's the case how come the link in the opening post cites the Daily Mail as a source for one of its claimed victims then?
 
That particular piece was not about welfare reform, nor was it about victims of the reform, nor was it about the concequences of those who were railroaded to ATOS. It was about a young jobless girl who took an overdose after failing so many times to find a job.
 
Do try to keep up Dan. headbang 
 
.
Mel, if that particular claim is not about welfare reform, why is it being included in the amount of people who have supposedly died as a result of the Tory's welfare reforms? I actually agree that it is difficult to attribute that directly to welfare reform. The fact that I already said as much earlier on this very page might have told you that. The point being, that if we both agree at least one of the people in the link OP's death can't be put down to welfare reforms then it highlights the difficulty of trying to directly attribute deaths to this government policy, which was the point I was making. Do try to keep up, Mel.

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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Mel on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:08 am

Dan, the link showed in all cases EXCEPT the Daily Tory Mail that the deaths were attributed to welfare reforms. The fact that the one and only singled out example you attempted enhance your argument was that the death was apparently due to lack of jobs issue and nothing directly to do with many dire consequences of welfare reform. It should not have been included in the listings. Keep up Dan.Smile
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:30 am

Mel wrote:Smile Dan, the link showed in all cases EXCEPT the Daily Tory Mail that the deaths were attributed to welfare reforms.
Mel, I'm sorry but that's just not true. In 2 of the cases no link is even provided. Another one (Man from Uncle) is a dead link. In several of those cases the names (or part of the names) of the alleged victims is not known either.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:49 am

By all means let us have accuracy whilst people suffer neglect or political malice.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Mel on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:55 am

"By all means let us have accuracy whilst people die of neglect or as a result of political malice.."

Indeed ow, those who will not have it when it is staring them in their faces are no friends to those who are about to commit suicide.

I must not say die through worry, because that is aparently not possible according to some folk.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:57 am

oftenwrong wrote:By all means let us have accuracy whilst people suffer neglect or political malice.
Accuracy is fairly important for anyone hoping to form a coherent argument.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:06 pm

Mel wrote:"By all means let us have accuracy whilst people die of neglect or as a result of political malice.."

Indeed ow, those who will not have it when it is staring them in their faces are no friends to those who are about to commit suicide.

I must not say die through worry, because that is aparently not possible according to some folk.
Mel, you made an inaccurate claim about the links. I pulled you up on that. You don't seem to like being pulled up when what you say can't be backed up. That's your problem tbh.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:25 pm

Tell the truth and shame the Devil.
(But don't expect to make many friends.)
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Mel on Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:46 pm

"I pulled you up on that. You don't seem to like being pulled up when what you say can't be backed up."

Well done, bully for you Dan. whoever is right or wrong about the "link" does not excuse this evil Government of driving people to suicide, whether it is just one person or a thousand. The fact remains that what they are doing is knowingly killing people who they are supposed to be elected to protect and support.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:55 pm

Mel wrote:"I pulled you up on that. You don't seem to like being pulled up when what you say can't be backed up."

Well done, bully for you Dan. whoever is right or wrong about the "link" does not excuse this evil Government of driving people to suicide, whether it is just one person or a thousand. The fact remains that what they are doing is knowingly killing people who they are supposed to be elected to protect and support.
I haven't defended their policies once, Mel. The main point I was making is that by attacking them with stuff that lacks checkable evidence or is, at best, emotive and opinionated then you're doing their jobs for them. Imagine if you were on Television or in print and you used that link in the OP to attack the policies. Anyone doing a tiny bit of research would rip it to shreds.
Perhaps we should draw a line under this though as I don't think we disagree too much overall. Some of the stories in the link are utterly tragic.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Mel on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:01 pm

Well said Dan.
 
May I offer some advice for the future in view of your anti Tory welcomed opinion.
 
VOTE LABOUR, you as an intelligent man must know it is the only way to rid us of the Tory cancer.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:07 pm

Mel wrote:Well said Dan.

May I offer some advise for the future in view of your anti Tory welcomed opinion.

VOTE LABOUR, you as an intelligent man must know it is the only way to rid us of the Tory cancer.
I've voted Labour in the past. I didn't last GE as I was disillusioned with them over amongst other things a subject which you and I have debated in some detail of late Wink I voted Lib Dem and whilst it made no difference in terms of where I live, it being a safe Labour seat, I did later regret it and certainly won't be doing it again in a hurry. On a happier note, I did vote Labour in the North Tyneside mayoral election in 2013 and we managed to unseat the loathsome Tory incumbent, Linda Arkley. I have never voted Tory and can't envisage a situation in which I ever will.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Mel on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:09 pm

Many thanks for that Dan.thumbsup 
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:12 pm

Mel, I did try to PM you and have just tried again. The message is showing in my outbox but not my sent box. Anyway, it wasn't anything important and I can just post it in a thread if you like.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Mel on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:17 pm

Got it second tome Dan. It seems even you cam make the odd error.Very Happy Very Happy 
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:18 pm

I would never suggest otherwise Wink
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Mel on Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:44 pm

Shocked 
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:52 pm

afraid
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:18 pm

afro 
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Ivan on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:23 pm

Maybe we should be discussing the topic instead of pulling faces at each other.....
 
Oh, why do I bother? headbang 
 
(Please don't say: "I didn't think you did.")
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Bellatori on Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:50 pm

I don't know about the rest of you but I do rather like to spend time doing the YouGov questionnaires. One thing that comes up repeatedly is that voters (and the over 60s repeatedly) say that they would suffer an increase in taxation for the reason of a ring fenced addition to pay for the NHS.

I am just trying to imagine which government of what stripe is going to stand up and say they are putting 3p in the pound on the standard rate simply to fund the NHS. All the polls say it is a popular choice BUT I am prepared to have a few bob on the fact that whichever party put that in its manifesto is not going to win the next election.

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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:23 pm

No tax increase would be necessary if HMRC collected all the money due to the Treasury. About £42Billion went uncollected in 2009-2010.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Redflag on Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:29 am

You know OW that this Tory gov't will never do that because most of their donors and Tory Lords are tax evaders.:yeahthat:
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:07 am

oftenwrong wrote:No tax increase would be necessary if HMRC collected all the money due to the Treasury.  About £42Billion went uncollected in 2009-2010.
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I wonder how much a more 'modest' foreign policy over the last 15 years would've saved.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:55 am

Don't you know that our politicians like to punch above our weight?

Whatever they think that means.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:41 am

4th largest defence expenditure in the world if my memory serves me right. That seems a tad excessive to me.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Redflag on Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:38 am

Dan Fante wrote: I've voted Labour in the past. I didn't last GE as I was disillusioned with them over amongst other things a subject which you and I have debated in some detail of late ;)I voted Lib Dem and whilst it made no difference in terms of where I live, it being a safe Labour seat, I did later regret it and certainly won't be doing it again in a hurry. On a happier note, I did vote Labour in the North Tyneside mayoral election in 2013 and we managed to unseat the loathsome Tory incumbent, Linda Arkley. I have never voted Tory and can't envisage a situation in which I ever will.
 
I can understand your disillusionment Dan Fante and do not think you were the only one feeling like that, maybe those that are of the Labour persuasion politically should do something about it like getting involved with the Labour party or joining so that all members and Labour voters can steer the Labour party in the direction that is far away from the right wing politics as we can go, and bring back fairness for all people of the UK, that is why I joined and got involved with by-elections no matter where they were it is also the reason I went on the Demo 29th Sept in Manchester to save OUR NHS for my family and my Labour family in England as I live in Scotland and the NHS is under the Scottish Parliament and "THANK GOD FOR SMALL MERCIES":yeahthat:
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:21 am

To be perfectly honest with you I have absolutely zero interest in joining any political party, including Labour. I also don't really see how doing so would bring about a fairer more inclusive electoral system. Call me a cynic.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:07 pm

Nuffink to do wiv me, Guv!
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by witchfinder on Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:39 pm

My guess is that the Tories must be rubbing their hands with glee, they get to do what they have always wanted to do, and use the deficit as the excuse, a bit like the perfect crime where no one will ever suspect.
 
Bit by bit they are dismantling public services, handing over care of the elderly to private companies who instruct staff not to spend more than 15 minutes per client; Well how else are they going to make a decent profit?
 
In my home town of Whitby, it has emerged that the Yorkshire Ambulance Service was seriously considering downgrading emergency cover to just 1 paramedic ambulance. We have a population of 25,000 including the vast expanse of moorland with scattered remote communities, our nearest hospitals are either 20 miles south, or 30 miles north.
 
Things are getting so bad that even basic essential services are under real threat, with nothing else left to cut, what happens next?
 
When a half reasonable Tory like John Major suggests a windfall levy on the big energy companies, he is scoffed at and mocked by most of the cabinet - how dare he suggest taking money from the hard pressed utility giants.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Redflag on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:44 pm

Dan Fante wrote:To be perfectly honest with you I have absolutely zero interest in joining any political party, including Labour. I also don't really see how doing so would bring about a fairer more inclusive electoral system. Call me a cynic.
 
 
Sorry to hear that Dan Fante, the only way you effect change is from the inside, you do not have to join all you have to do is get involved. Ed Miliband does listen to the normal people off the street if he thinks you have a good idea, so Dan as long as you have zero interest you will never find the political party that suits your views.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:42 am

Redflag wrote: Sorry to hear that Dan Fante, the only way you effect change is from the inside, you do not have to join all you have to do is get involved. Ed Miliband does listen to the normal people off the street if he thinks you have a good idea, so Dan as long as you have zero interest you will never find the political party that suits your views.
 
Hang on a minute, I said I had zero interest in joining any political party. That doesn't preclude me from being interested in politics or from writing to politicians / signing petitions etc. Also, lets not forget what I was actually discussing, i.e. the lack of fairness / democracy in our current voting system which, in my view, inevitably leads to voter apathy. There's absolutely no indication either of the two main parties have any appetite to change the status quo. Why? Because it suits them to leave it as it is.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:04 am

There's absolutely no indication either of the two main parties have any appetite to change the status quo. Why? Because it suits them to leave it as it is.

All true, but what's the alternative?  Israeli governments are usually an unlikely combination of militants and religious nutters, whilst Italians and Greeks largely ignore the determinations of their elected politicians.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:15 am

oftenwrong wrote:
Israeli governments are usually an unlikely combination of militants and religious nutters
Do you think the UK is politically similar to Israel? What a strange example to quote. Why not use Germany as an example? There's loads of other countries where PR works fine too.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Redflag on Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:58 pm

Dan Fante wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:
Israeli governments are usually an unlikely combination of militants and religious nutters
Do you think the UK is politically similar to Israel? What a strange example to quote. Why not use Germany as an example? There's loads of other countries where PR works fine too.

Dan Fante all I said was to get involved with whatever party you prefer, you do not have to join any party just get involved give them your input that way you will bring about change, if you are talking about the PR voting system that would allow the swivel eyed loons in on a permanant basis NO THANK YOU the shower we have in at the moment is once too often.:yeahthat: 
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:48 pm

other countries where PR works ....... have consensus government. Sometimes called grey government, because Laws eventually passed are usually a compromise designed to offend the least possible number of electors. A determined element in such coalitions can induce paralysis.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:25 am

oftenwrong wrote:other countries where PR works ....... have consensus government.  Sometimes called grey government, because Laws eventually passed are usually a compromise designed to offend the least possible number of electors. A determined element in such coalitions can induce paralysis.
As I said Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Germany etc. seem to do alright. If you're happy with the status quo though, fine. I'm not.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:28 am

Redflag wrote: Dan Fante all I said was to get involved with whatever party you prefer, you do not have to join any party just get involved give them your input that way you will bring about change, if you are talking about the PR voting system that would allow the swivel eyed loons in on a permanant basis NO THANK YOU the shower we have in at the moment is once too often.:yeahthat: 
 
Not sure about your reasoning there. You have to go back to 1992 for an election where the Tories got more than 40% of the popular vote. How does that equate to PR guaranteeing them power on permanent basis?
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:29 am

oftenwrong wrote:Nuffink to do wiv me, Guv!
I didn't realise you were a political activist. I'd be interested in hearing what you've been involved with and what you feel this has helped to achieve.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:40 am

The USA formed under a popular slogan, "No taxation without representation."

The reverse philosophy is to take no action, so as to avoid any possible blame for subsequent events.  We can all do that.

Incidentally, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Germany are similar in not being "nuclear powers". Perhaps that is the secret of their success, rather than the underlying political process.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:44 am

Nicely avoided. Laughing You'd make a great politician going off your posts. I'm yet to see one that isn't a soundbite.
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Re: Governing body or executioner?

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