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Do you believe in miracles?

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Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Bellatori on Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do miracles actually happen flower  or are they simply a refuge for the scoundrel pirate Twisted Evil  on the make at the expense of the gullible and suggestible pale ?

Of course there is the miracle of Slade performing on top of Buck House queen  but that is not quite what I had in mind.


It really does matter though. JPII has been made a saint - they even dug his body up to celebrate (no kidding! ugh No ). To become a saint in the past there had to be a number of miracles and there was a devil's advocate to ensure the quality. Since the devil's advocate was abolished (by JPII no less Shocked ) and whose job it was to take a sceptical view of the life this has made canonisation easier. Apparently now only one miracle is required. So what are the chances?

Lets play with some figures. There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world and, for the sake of argument lets assume they live the allotted threescore years and ten. Again, for the sake of argument we can assume that the number of Catholics is stable at around this figure. From this we can estimate that approximately 17 million catholics die each year for whatever reason Sad . Of these again approximately 4 out of ten will suffer from cancer. This gives us a figure of 6.8 million cancer sufferers who are likely to die from it or complications every year and who are also Roman Catholic. Now we know that about 1:60000 cancers spontaneously remit (that is normal population result amongst theists and atheists alike so I would recommend keep taking the tablets if that is you Smile ) which indicates that there should be of the order of 285 miracles in the RC population worldwide each year. Remember, it only takes one to make a saint.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by polyglide on Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:42 am

Believe me stu I have in my life experienced events that would test the health and strength of anyone but that does not stop me from having a deep regard for the welfare of children in general and those left to fend for themselves in particular.

If I have upset you then I apologise I know how one can be so affected by events that it is hard to go on, I got through, through prayer and a belief that the ills of the world are Satan made.

You may not agree but I can assure you without that faith I would not have been able to deel with things.

regards.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:09 pm

polyglide then if you had read my posts you would know that I had no choice in the matter where my daughter and ex partner were concerned. she left me took my daughter with her and left me brokenhearted. to live with and marry someone else.after spending my money to get her better too thousands of pounds.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Heretic on Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:25 pm

stu wrote:As always Heretic, the man with the wise words. You are the person people look to for those my friend, well I certainly do as YOU ALWAYS SEEM TO HAVE THEM WHATEVER THE TIME. whatever the need arises.thumbsup 
I am not a wise man. All I know is that people hurt, most people hurt in some way or another and it less than human to fail to recognise that others suffer in the same way as ourselves. I don't have any answers, I don't know what to do about it but sometimes we all need an acknowledgement and an arm across the shoulders is all we can offer.

I hope that those that inflict pain onto others do not realise what they are doing. I would hate to think of them like that. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and as such I really hope that PolyGuide didn't realise how his words might sting.

Yes he's right in this, it is better if parents and children can live the fairy tale life that so few people seem to be able to live nowadays. As before I acknowledge that I was one of the lucky ones. We stayed together not because we were anything special but because we loved each other and no matter what people threw at us that one thing remained. Other people are not as lucky as I was and they need our understanding and support but not our judgement. I'm sure they inflict enough pain on themselves as they try and figure out what went wrong. To see others point fingers at them and either judge or laugh reflects badly on those pointing those fingers rather than those they want to make their victims.

I don't understand what Stu went through and in many ways I cannot ever do that, all I know is that he is hurting and he doesn't understand the real reasons why.

Yes it is better if parents and children stay together but given that we do not live in a perfect society they we have to acknowledge that Stu has not abandoned his daughter and is doing everything he can to maintain his relationship with her.

I do realise that there are two sides to every story and that Stu is not a perfect man, neither am I and neither are you, and we will never know how his partner (partner/wife I don't recall sorry) feels or sees things. It is none of our business to be honest. What I do know is that she is probably hurting too, as I said I don't know the full story. Where there is pain we as human beings have a responsibility to each other. To do it in the name of a deity is just a way of washing our hand in public. We need to do it because it is who we are. I know this is a message board and all we see is words on a screen but there are real people with real situations to handle on the other side of those words.

Stu I don't know what you're going through all I can say is that if you are true to who you really are it will all work out in the end. What can I wish for you in the end? "And they all lived happily ever after".

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:43 pm

Thank-you so much for your lovely kind words Heretic, the only family I have now is my lovely daughter. Very few real friends, except my pooch which they say is a mans best friend do they not. Apart from those all I have is the friends I have on this forum and Peter's thread. That might seem strange to you folks reading this at the moment, but that has been so ever since my partner left me 5 and a bit years ago.yes it still hurts even now. I don't think I will ever get over it as I loved her so much, oh I put on all the brave faces and say the right words at the right times like a robot from dr bloody who. I do not care myself whether you believe me or not, all I know is that I am telling the truth. christmas means nothing to me as I will not see my daughter on xmas day,but xmas eve. and mum and her new husband will be the family etc on xmas day trimmings up tree up all relatives visting etc and playing the games etc presents with my daughter. I know it's mums daughter also and the guy she ran off with and married is now step-dad, just me on my own whilst all the fun is going on.Am I wrong somewhere? please tell me folks?
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:57 pm

polyglide wrote:I said it was a pity that parents did not stay together.

I reiterate same.

It would be far better for all children if they had two loving parents living together as a family, who would deny the fact?

There will be circumstances when this for many reasons is not possible but amongst those reasons will be selfishness and lack of concern for the children.

Falling in love with another is no excuse, neither getting into debt nor not wanting to take responsibility  etc;

There are now thousands of children without a family as such and in this day and age it is disgusting.
Grow up, and don't be such a vindictive puerile chump. If your christian beliefs can mange that. Isn't it marvellous how theists make largess claims for their morals, but when push comes to shove they turn out to be nasty spiteful and vindictive, you can shove your superstition as I'd rather care about my fellows than waste my time in bitterness and arrogance deluding myself I had the ear of god.


Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:02 pm

stu wrote:Thank-you so much for your lovely kind words Heretic, the only family I have now is my lovely daughter. Very few real friends, except my pooch which they say is a mans best friend do they not. Apart from those all I have is the friends I have on this forum and Peter's thread. That might seem strange to you folks reading this at the moment, but that has been so ever since my partner left me 5 and a bit years ago.yes it still hurts even now. I don't think I will ever get over it as I loved her so much, oh I put on all the brave faces and say the right words at the right times like a robot from dr bloody who. I do not care myself whether you believe me or not, all I know is that I am telling the truth. christmas means nothing to me as I will not see my daughter on xmas day,but xmas eve. and mum and her new husband will be the family etc on xmas day trimmings up tree up all relatives visting etc and playing the games etc presents with my daughter. I know it's mums daughter also and the guy she ran off with and married is now step-dad, just me on my own whilst all the fun is going on.Am I wrong somewhere? please tell me folks?
I am sorry to hear this stu, it's an awful situation, but hopefully things have at least turned a corner with access rights to your daughter. You can now hopefully build your relationship with her, and she'll know you're her dad, as long as she knows you love her, then that'll never change.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:33 pm

I am use to it now thanks Sheldon, I never really celebrate xmas even the cards come down xmas day night. I always have what I feel like for dinner never traditional, waste of time just for me. Usually have a chilli. Me and the pooch are ok though mate.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Heretic on Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:54 pm

stu wrote:I am use to it now thanks Sheldon, I never really celebrate xmas even the cards come down xmas day night. I always have what I feel like for dinner never traditional, waste of time just for me. Usually have a chilli. Me and the pooch are ok though mate.
I don't particularly celebrate Christmas and I would actually prefer to be alone with my thoughts. The last few years I have managed to farm my daughter (she's 32) out on Christmas day with people that actually celebrate it but this year is different as she has had a row with those friends. The row came about because she suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder. It's like manic depressions but instead of moods going high to low and back again it is all about relationships. She puts people on pedestals and then when they do not live up to expectations she pulls them down and has nothing to with them ever again. I live on a knifes edge and will have to find a way to survive Christmas without upsetting her, I really fear this because she has lived with me now for the last 18 months and she nearly moved into a really unsuitable flat as the result of one row and I will do anything to avoid that.

One really good thing is that my next door neighbour is cooking our dinner for us. I will probably find a few DVD's that she might like. The last time I was in this situation I had the "Doctor films" with Ian Carmichael. She really enjoyed them which she didn't think she would.

I will come off my painkillers for a few days so that I can have a drink. You can only stay dry so long and then you(or I) need a drink.

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Last edited by Heretic on Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:15 pm

Sounds very difficult Heretic, is it a bit like autism? as that is how a friends son reacts towards a person. I think you missed a number off how old your daughter is? is it 13 23? has my friends son is 34 with a mental age of 6-7 i am fortunate that he likes me.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Heretic on Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:22 pm

stu wrote:Sounds very difficult Heretic, is it a bit like autism? as that is how a friends son reacts towards a person. I think you missed a number off how old your daughter is? is it 13 23? has my friends son is 34 with a mental age of 6-7 i am fortunate that he likes me.
She is 32.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:43 am

Hard times ahead for a while then my friend, alas I do not see my friend as much as I use to because he too has to find someone that his son likes without going into a tirade of bad language.etc. He use to do it to me but as a nurse that was i understood the reasons why.take care Heretic.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by polyglide on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:56 am

stu, I was unaware of your circumstances and I have seen friends go through similar events and that is why I say love of another is no excuse for abondoning those you have promised to cherish.

We humans are a disgrace to all other life.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:18 pm

I am afraid we are at times are we not.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by snowyflake on Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:25 pm

polyglide wrote:We humans are a disgrace to all other life.
Ignoring of course how much better we are than we have ever been in history. We don't shove children up chimneys or into the workhouse. We don't make them slave labourers (in the west anyway). We are not allowed to kill women and children with impunity. Men are being told that having sex with children is not only unethical, immoral, unkind and cruel but illegal as well. Employees are better treated, women and children are better treated. Slavery is outlawed in most of the world.

This is not down to religion, polyglide. but down to our secular laws and the appreciation of basic human rights. Where it does fall down, appears to be in the countries with the highest religiosity. So your argument farts on many levels.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:56 pm

Very true snowy,but I WOULD not say it farts, I think it probably dumps a load.Laughing 
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by bobby on Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:39 pm

I got through, through prayer and a belief that the ills of the world are Satan made.

So you got through by placing the blame on someone else, you being perfect and all.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Shirina on Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:56 pm

polyglide wrote:We humans are a disgrace to all other life.
And here I thought I was cynical.

Last summer I remember sitting on the porch watching the hummingbirds feed at the feeder hanging from the eaves. I couldn't help but notice how these little birds fought each other for the right to eat at the feeder. There was more than enough food to go around. In fact, the neighbors across the street had four more hummingbird feeders filled to bursting with the sugary syrup they love so much. And each feeder could comfortably "seat" six birds.

Yet still they fought so that only one bird at a time could use the feeders. In fact, the birds fought so much that rarely did any one bird get so much as a gulp from the feeder before another bird dived down on top of him to renew the fight.

I couldn't help but notice how we behave the same way, what with the massive wealth disparity we have. With so much wealth and resources to go around, why do so few have so much?

Yet, the bottom line here is a rather simple one: Humanity acts just like every other form of life on this planet. We cannot be a "disgrace" to all other life when we behave exactly as all other life behaves. You seem to expect some sort of massive, "quantum leap" in behavior between a Man and an animal because you believe we're special - divinely created. Yet all one has to do is spend an afternoon on the porch watching the hummingbirds to know how stupid and arrogant such a concept actually is. Perhaps if we were truly as special as you seem to think we are, we would no longer be butchering each other over primitive god concepts ... but we have religion to thank for that, and even the hummingbirds, I'm sure, who do not worship gods, would be appalled.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:57 pm

Sorry Shirina for you waiting so long for a reply to your post,,but it took myself three readings of it before I got fully your meaning. Here in the UK we describe it something like two dogs scrapping over a bone,and my dog as soft as she is would still scrap over a bone with another, and she does not worship any gods only me at feeding time. Laughing You are so right though, when the quote comes out that "we humans are a disgrace to all other life" it is wrong except for the percentage of wrongdoers, but compare them to that do good and it is only a small percentage.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Heretic on Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:54 am

I'm not so sure about us behaving like those humming birds. I am quite content to wait until the greedy have taken their fill. I just wonder if that's because I live in a prosperous country and I can still live without too much suffering. I think that most of the planet, not all of it, lives in a calorie rich environment. As for the non-essentials, some are prepared to fight tooth and nail to trample on everybody to get every last penny. They only realise they have too much when they grow up a bit and start giving it away. Maybe evolution gave us our conscience as a tool for survival, gave isn't the right word but you know where I'm coming from.

I forget where it is in the bible but the Israelites were in the desert after Moses freed them from the Egyptians. They were in the desert and they dug a well but the locals came upon them and claimed the well. This happened a few times until the locals felt they had enough water. From that moment they were granted space to live, to consolidate their position as it were. They had to wander 40 years before they entered Israel, the land of milk and Honey.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by polyglide on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:35 pm

I will certainly believe in miracles when a sensible answer comes along as to how did humans develope all the abilities they enjoy, which when counted are numerous and there is not one other living thing so capable, leaving humans so far apart that they are an entirely different species.

The above would be an example of a miracle and there are countless examples of others well documented.

Just because you do not believe is totaly irrelevant.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:40 pm


Laughing
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by polyglide on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:52 pm

You cannot insult the brain dead or I may say.

To say you are stupid would be an insult to a stupid person.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Bellatori on Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:27 pm

polyglide wrote:You cannot insult the brain dead or I may say.

To say you are stupid would be an insult to a stupid person.
Nice bit of ad hominem.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Norm Deplume on Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:31 pm

polyglide wrote:I will certainly believe in miracles when a sensible answer comes along as to how did humans develope all the abilities they enjoy, which when counted are numerous and there is not one other living thing so capable, leaving humans so far apart that they are an entirely different species.  
Who has suggested that humans beings are not a separate species? It is the basis of taxonomy. Every species (and there are millions) is unique by definition. Gorilla gorilla is not the same species as Gorilla beringei, but they are of the same genus.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:41 pm

Go get him Norm. Laughing 
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Heretic wrote:I'm not so sure about us behaving like those humming birds. I am quite content to wait until the greedy have taken their fill.
Sorry I haven't responded to this sooner, but somehow I completely missed this thread. At any rate, I will have to stand behind my comparison with hummingbirds. Perhaps it's because, while I live in the richest and most powerful nation in the world, we do so very little to help the poor and needy, the disabled and the elderly. So much wealth everywhere you look; there should be no excuse for homelessness and poverty, no excuse for people dying of untreated illnesses and shelters packed to the rafters every cold night. What's worse is the number of people who despise and denigrate the poor and disabled, the constant whining about how much of their taxes are being spent on our rather meager welfare system. Of course, American government spends over $10 billion per year on subsidies for the oil companies even though they're making record profits - it would be like allowing Bill Gates to collect food stamps. Corporate welfare seems perfectly acceptable, but to give a sick man some money - less money than a minimum wage job in most cases - to keep him off the street, well, that's terrible! We can spend an infinite sum on weapons and death, but not a penny for comfort and healing.

But it's much more than that. This Friday is Black Friday. Just listen to the news and see how many are killed or wounded as crowds of greedy people surge into the stores, trampling those who fall without regard to their safety and well being. I see this capitalistic ritual every year and my throat always fills with bile as I watch these sheep swarming the shelves like lemmings with a bank account.

Certainly one can wait until the greedy have taken their fill, but as to that, I'll give another comparison. When my mother comes over, she brings her little dog - and instantly the dog and the cat are in competition for the food in the cat's dish. Even though the dog has just been fed, the dog feels it must eat the cat's food to prevent the cat from having any and NOT because the dog needs more food. This is the phenomena of rich vs. poor. The wealthy already have more money than they could spend in three lifetimes, so a) why do they always want even more and b) they will take your money just to keep you from having any.

Waiting for a greedy society to slake its thirst for materialism will mean you'll eventually be forced into abject poverty - failing to take your place amid the proverbial crowds of competing greediness like on Black Friday will land you with empty pockets and a rumbling stomach. According to the 2010 census in America, some 47% of us, almost half of our entire population, are now poor enough to qualify for welfare. Of all the new jobs created in the past 10 years, over 67% of them are considered low wage, low enough to be considered below the poverty line. Meanwhile, the wealthy have hoarded around $24 trillion in personal offshore tax havens, meaning not only are they not reinvesting their money into the economy by, say, paying their workforces better, that money is also not being taxed. This essentially says that the wealthy are freeloading off the backs of the middle class who pay the bulk of the taxes that keep our infrastructure afloat - and that, only barely. Thanks to class warfare concocted by right-wing propaganda, the middle class have turned on the poor and disabled, blaming THEM for the financial woes of suburbia instead of tearing after the real culprits. American businesses have managed to squirrel away $1.6 trillion since they refuse to reinvest - which equates to no one hiring, no one getting raises, and no new positions being created. But boy, those profit statements look damn good!

As the wealth of the rich rises by over 13% as it did last year, the income of the poor and middle class rose by less than one percent. In America, executives make 465 times the money as an average worker, the highest wealth disparity by far in the industrialized world. Right now, I sit in a modestly nice home bought and paid for with a salary earned with nothing more than a high school diploma and a blue collar salary. Today? A person working the same job - if he could even find one - couldn't afford a three-room flat in an inner-city ghetto.

The only real difference between us and hummingbirds is that we have the power to clip the wings of those below us, to stamp on the hands of those climbing the ladder beneath us, to ensure that upward mobility and our turn at the drinking trough never comes.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:45 pm

Oh what an awful picture you paint Shirina, and I thought that I was bad off in the UK. But there is no way you would get me to leave it, no matter how much this government is putting up the prices all over the place for everything. I would sooner struggle here than get walked all over elsewhere.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:11 pm

stu wrote:Oh what an awful picture you paint Shirina, and I thought that I was bad off in the UK.
Unfortunately, many (far too many) Americans are poorly educated, and those who are educated are usually too busy working and raising families to see what is actually going on. Some folks, like me, have entirely too much time on our hands, but for those of us who use that time to learn, the things we discover are rather ... disconcerting.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:43 pm

Will the government not invest in an education programme, to up the percentage of americans who are educated,therefore reducing the ones that are poorly educated?
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:05 pm

stu wrote:Will the government not invest in an education programme, to up the percentage of americans who are educated,therefore reducing the ones that are poorly educated?
Heh, well, the liberals do, certainly. But the right-wingers oppose education and even wanted to eliminate the federal Department of Education. One of the problems in our education system is that, because there are so many idiots hiding under their beds from the Big Bad Federal Government, we don't have any real national standards of how education should be conducted and what should be taught. As a result, each state, school district, and school does things differently, teaches different things, and administers a bewilderingly huge number of different kinds of tests. Kids lucky enough to grow up in a place with a good school get a good education. Those unlucky to grow up in an area with a bad school means getting a bad education. Ability, intelligence, etc., is less of a factor these days than simple luck of the draw.

I moved around quite a bit while in school so I've seen these differences in action. Different places don't even teach the same subjects at the same grade level. There were some subjects in high school that I never had while others I've had to endure two, even three times simply because of moving around. I remember moving to a new school just 36 miles away. I was taking physics at my old school in 11th grade, but my new school didn't teach physics until 12th grade. Sooo ... even though I had less than 2 months left before the end of the school year, I was pulled out of physics in my new school and made to take some idiotic remedial math class just to waste time until the year ended. BUT ... over the summer, the school decided to move physics down to 11th grade and move geometry up to 12th grade. So instead of taking phyiscs like I was supposed to, I missed it entirely because it was now a grade level below me. Instead, I had to take geometry -- again -- even though I had already had geometry back in 10th grade at a different school. Yeah, because of this ridiculous "state's rights" crap, my education here is like a patchwork quilt of chaos.

At any rate, some states have absolutely absurd education platforms. Here's a good example from the Republican platform on education in Texas:

"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

Yeah, you read that right. The Republicans oppose the teaching of critical thinking skills because knowing how to critically think might challenge the student's "fixed beliefs."

In other words, critical thinking is a threat to religion, so it shouldn't be taught. No kidding. This is for real. How the HELL can we have an informed citizenry capable of making decisions about our government when we have an education system that supports ignorance and blind obedience? When it comes to education, many people say that, where Texas goes, the rest of the country follows. By this, I guess since Texas is circling the toilet drain, so too will the rest of the nation.

But it's more than just politics and religion ... it's also attitude and perception regarding education. But that'll have to wait for a different post.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:25 pm

All I can say to that Shirina is what a balls up, it should be stated from the top that every school has the same lessons/grades /subjects etc to try and equal the students out in what education they get. My if things go to politics I get a soapbox out. Laughing 
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:57 pm


My soapbox is very well worn, I'm afraid. Very Happy 
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Don't worry I will soon catch you up. Wink 
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Heretic on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:23 pm

Do I believe in miracles? Yes.

The fact that there is something rather than nothing is a clear example.

The sheer size of the universe is astonishing to me even now.

Life.

Do we need a god to explain any of this? No, just very good physicists and biologists. I'm told that a good mathematician might be helpful too.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Tosh on Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:23 am

The fact that there is something rather than nothing is a clear example.
It is like debating M theory with Forrest Gump, is it a miracle there is no life in space or on other planets in our solar system?

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:18 pm

That we know of Tosh. alien 
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:34 pm

I wish Ibuleve would do an "Ibuleve's a miracle" advert but I can't see the ASA letting that one slide.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Heretic on Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:01 pm

Tosh wrote:
The fact that there is something rather than nothing is a clear example.
It is like debating M theory with Forrest Gump, is it a miracle there is no life in space or on other planets in our solar system?
Sorry Tosh but I don't get the connection.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:00 pm

polyglide wrote:I will certainly believe in miracles when a sensible answer comes along as to how did humans develope all the abilities they enjoy, which when counted are numerous and there is not one other living thing so capable, leaving humans so far apart that they are an entirely different species.  
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:"An entirely different species" that shares 94% of it's DNA with Chimpanzees, which you've been told repeatedly. So rehashing this spurious lie in such a perfidious way isn't clever, it makes you look a fool, and a dishonest one at that.
The above would be an example of a miracle and there are countless examples of others well documented.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:No it's not, it's an example of the process of evolution, for which the evidence is now refutable, there isn't a shred of evidence for any miracles, which rather tellingly tapered off dramatically with the advent of scientific empiricism and our ability to test such claims.
Just because you do not believe is totally irrelevant.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Just because you choose to believe an ancient superstition without any evidence doesn't make it true, and your denial of scientific facts, like evolution is irrelevant, as it's still a fact, and it's idiocy to deny it.
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by stuart torr on Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:09 pm

Well Sheldon, idiocy covers a lot of things does it not. clown 
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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

Post by polyglide on Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:05 pm

Stu, believe me, I have had more than my share of grief in my life as well as experiencing the problems in person in many parts of the world.

As I have said previously, I lost my wife to cancer involving a lingering death over several months which both our children had to experience and suffer and after 38 years the pain can return on reflection.

My faith saw me through, although at times I did question why my wife and why me etc;

However, the problems of ill health and all man's other problems, when you consider the facts are, man made, man has had the option of doing right from wrong and the ills of the world have been brought about by man's choices, you cannot blame anyone else.

There appears nothing fair in life and this is also man made, in one way or another.

I am very sorry for your present position and it is heart felt, words are easy to say but often not used in an appropriate manner, the very last thing I would wish is in any way for you to think I did not have the most best wishes for yourself and the possibility for a better future, I can tell you it is possible from personal experience,
do not stop loving your lost partner, as that would be self destructive, if she is happy, then you should be happy for her, choose how much it hurts.

Just consider that your daughter is on holiday when not with you and make the very best of the times you have with her, children grow up very fast and before you know it you will be the best man at her wedding.

regards.

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Re: Do you believe in miracles?

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