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Atheism versus God

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Atheism versus God

Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:56 pm

It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.
 
That is a one-sided sword which cuts only one way.
 
It is important to give a general definition of Atheism as like on Wikipedia HERE.
 
Atheism is a negative concept, as in saying "no" as in no God, no Deity, no conscious higher power, etc.
 
So just because some one hates Christianity then that is not Atheist, or hating the scary Muslims is not Atheist, as one must reject the presence or the reality of any God by any name or form.
 
I myself declare the real existence of the "Creator Father God" but to use other names for the "Theo or Thea" is fine with me.  
 
My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness, and that appears to be the true motivation for being an Atheist.
 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:06 pm

It seems a bit ironic calling atheists self-righteous whilst claiming to know what God thinks.
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god against atheism

Post by stuart torr on Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:31 pm

JP, a form of name calling but using nice posh words to do it, calling an Atheist self-righteous, or basically pharisaic!. Ie pertaining to the pharisees, ie hypocritical, hypocrisy used against us. Sanctimonious.etc Basically JP Atheists.Atheism,= a belief that there is no god,and god does not exist, and we disagree with yourself because you give out claim after claim that cannot be verified. Also you just plainly and simply refuse to answer any questions put before you that might make you look even sillier than you do now.


Last edited by stu on Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : changed wrong word)
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:59 pm

JP Cusick wrote:It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.
I cannot be against what I do not acknowledge the existence of. I can be against the belief in the existence of something I do do not acknowledge the existence of, that is quite different.

JP Cusick wrote:That is a one-sided sword which cuts only one way.
Most objects I know of have at least two sides with the exception of the Möbius strip which has one edge and one face.

JP Cusick wrote:It is important to give a general definition of Atheism as like on Wikipedia HERE.
It is easy it is either a non-belief in god or a belief in no-god, that was painless wasn't it. Notice there was no addition of philosophies, doctrines, dogmas, priesthoods, scriptures, prophets, messiahs, promised land or life after death.

JP Cusick wrote:Atheism is a negative concept, as in saying "no" as in no God, no Deity, no conscious higher power, etc.
Atheism is life affirming in that it has both feet firmly planted on the ground and by implication this life, it does not devalue this life by saying that every thing here is soiled and dirty and you must put off real living until some spurious second life.

JP Cusick wrote:So just because some one hates Christianity then that is not Atheist, or hating the scary Muslims is not Atheist, as one must reject the presence or the reality of any God by any name or form.
That's a bit like saying one equals one, simple enough mathematics I would of thought but you seem to be trying to make it say something else.

JP Cusick wrote:I myself declare the real existence of the "Creator Father God" but to use other names for the "Theo or Thea" is fine with me.  
Bully for you.

JP Cusick wrote:My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness, and that appears to be the true motivation for being an Atheist. 
Your view can be anything you want it to be but the moment you express it in public you have to justify it. Can you show that atheism has any relationship at all with any form of righteousness? Can you show that atheism is anything other than "either a non-belief in god or a belief in no-god" ? I suspect that you can't. Isn't your attack on atheism (no capital necessary as atheism doesn't need it) merely an attempt to justify your own 'self-righteousness' to yourself.

I have just been through your post one line at a time and there was no substance there to pick apart. You obviously have a motive for being here so why don't you say what you really want to say and we can debate with you properly. From what I can see you do not know a great deal about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism or any other religion, I leave it to others to judge about your knowledge of philosophy, mysticism you do not have a clue of and you cannot even understand the meaning of atheism.

You obviously want to say something and I am waiting to hear it.

It would be interesting to discover if you could get together one or two other voices together so that we know that you are not "as one crying in the wilderness".

Peace

Heretic
Question[/quote]


Last edited by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Reply.

Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:01 pm

stu wrote:JP, a form of name calling but using nice posh words to do it, calling an Atheist self-righteous, or basically pharisaic!. Ie pertaining to the pharisees, ie hypocritical, hypocrisy used against us. Sanctimonious.etc Basically JP Atheists.Atheism,= a belief that there is no god,and god does not exist, and we disagree with yourself because you give out claim after claim that cannot be verified. Also you just plainly and simply refuse to answer any questions put before you that might make you look even sillier than you do now.
Actually I see myself giving out very detailed responses and it does not matter if you demand more.

I do not see it as name-calling to say Atheist are self-righteous since they could view that as a compliment.

As my perception is that God declares not to lie or to cheat or adultery or stealing, on and on etc etc...

The Atheist is a negative doctrine of no God, but that includes no commandments too.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Norm Deplume on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:21 pm

JP Cusick wrote:It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.
Atheism is against God because God does not exist. God is not against atheism for precisely the same reason.

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Reply.

Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:21 pm

Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.
I cannot be against what I do not acknowledge the existence of. I can be against the belief in the existence of something I do do not acknowledge the existence of, that is quite different.
That is great for your self, and I respect any individual stance.

The thing is that the name "atheism" (capitalized or not) has God (Greek = Theo) built into its name.

Therefore the name Atheist mean "no God" and thereby that position is against God or anti-God.

Perhaps "Humanism" would be more accurate for the doctrine you describe above?

Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:That is a one-sided sword which cuts only one way.
Most objects I know of have at least two sides with the exception of the Möbius strip which has one edge and one face.
There is no need to argue every blessed word.

The sword in question has a one sided blade as the other side is blunt - as if that was not an obvious intent.

Heretic wrote:Can you show that atheism has any relationship at all with any form of righteousness?
My point is really to demonstrate a severe lack or absence of righteousness.

Not the reverse.

Heretic wrote:You obviously have a motive for being here so why don't you say what you really want to say and we can debate with you properly.

You obviously want to say something and I am waiting to hear it.
I really did not want to create some big or dominant agenda as that would not be productive here - IMO.

For me it was either talk about this subject and get it out - or else I was going to have to leave here without any satisfaction.

Heretic wrote:It would be interesting to discover if you could get together one or two other voices together so that we know that you are not "as one crying in the wilderness".
I would like that too - but no.

As such I kind of like the = "as one crying in the wilderness".

Works for me.

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Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:26 pm

Dan Fante wrote:It seems a bit ironic calling atheists self-righteous whilst claiming to know what God thinks.
I do not claim to know what God thinks, but I will claim certain revelations as like from the Bible and the Gita and the Tao the Qur'an and from other scriptures, but those are separate from the subject here.

My perspective that Atheism is a way of being self-righteous is based on my own thinking and on my own observations.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:29 pm

JP Cusick wrote:I do not claim to know what God thinks
You said God was not against atheism though. How could you possibly know that?
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:37 pm

JP, just because we do not follow the ten commandments, that does not make us liars.cheats.adulterers.stealers. etc. As any atheist will inform you, we do not need the bible or god to live a good life and have morals. One thing is for sure JP, and that is you do not posess a dictionary or thesaurus. If you did you would come out with far better words to call atheists, polite ones at that.
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Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:48 pm

Dan Fante wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:I do not claim to know what God thinks
You said God was not against atheism though. How could you possibly know that?
I know that because there is a lot of truths in Atheism.

That truth is the marker of God.


====================================


stu wrote:JP, just because we do not follow the ten commandments, that does not make us liars.cheats.adulterers.stealers. etc. As any atheist will inform you, we do not need the bible or god to live a good life and have morals.
What you describe is what is meant by being self-righteous.

As in you can tell the truth or not depending on however it suits your self.

Your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time, because the righteousness is dependent only on your self.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:51 pm

JP Cusick wrote:Actually I see myself giving out very detailed responses and it does not matter if you demand more.
I look forward to them.

JP Cusick wrote:I do not see it as name-calling to say Atheist are self-righteous since they could view that as a compliment.
I do not see it as name calling either, just wrong. Atheism is a simple idea that indicates the non-existence of a deity. I look forward to your very detailed response that justifies your statement that "Atheist are self-righteous" (you seem to imply there is only one atheist or was that a typo?).

JP Cusick wrote:As my perception is that God declares not to lie or to cheat or adultery or stealing, on and on etc etc...
Lie

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
Very obviously Adam was not dead when he lived to "hundred and thirty years".

Cheat

Issac is deceived into giving Jacob his blessing in place of Esau.

Genesis27:1 And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I.
Genesis27:2 And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death:
Genesis27:3 now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;
Genesis27:4 and make me savory meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.
Genesis27:5 ¶ And Rebekah heard when Isaac spake to Esau his son. And Esau went to the field to hunt for venison, and to bring it.
Genesis27:6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying,
Genesis27:7 Bring me venison, and make me savory meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death.
Genesis27:8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.
Genesis27:9 Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savory meat for thy father, such as he loveth:
Genesis27:10 and thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death.
Genesis27:11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:
Genesis27:12 my father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing.
Genesis27:13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.
Genesis27:14 And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savory meat, such as his father loved.
Genesis27:15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:
Genesis27:16 and she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:
Genesis27:17 and she gave the savory meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
Genesis27:18 ¶ And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?
Genesis27:19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
Genesis27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.
Genesis27:21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not.
Genesis27:22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau.
Genesis27:23 And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him.
Genesis27:24 And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I am.


Adultery

Matthew 1:18 18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Steal
This is where the Israelites were commanded to 'borrow' from the Egyptians their good and wealth(never to be returned)

Exodus 12:34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
Exodus 12:35 And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
Exodus 12:36 And the Lord gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.

JP Cusick wrote:The Atheist is a negative doctrine of no God,
Negative Theology is where instead of approaching truth by approaching it directly you approach truth by eliminating all those things that are not true you slowly begin to discover what is true.
JP Cusick wrote:but that includes no commandments too.
Who needs commandments? and who is to be trusted to set them. We all have an intrinsic sense of right and wrong, we know which is done to us and we know which we do to others.

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Returning.

Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:07 pm

Heretic wrote:Negative Theology is where instead of approaching truth by approaching it directly you approach truth by eliminating all those things that are not true you slowly begin to discover what is true.
We agree with this one.   :yeahthat: 

Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:but that includes no commandments too.
Who needs commandments? and who is to be trusted to set them. We all have an intrinsic sense of right and wrong, we know which is done to us and we know which we do to others.
We do have lots of human-commandments in this world, as we call them as State laws and such as that.

As such we can have different Countries or even in the same Country where abortion is righteous or it is murder, where homosex is righteous or not, and adultery protected by law or not, and so yes we do have commandments, but Atheist try to pretend neutral when there is no neutrality.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:14 pm

Your knowledge is rarely exceded along with your philosophy Heretic, excellent post.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:15 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Dan Fante wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:I do not claim to know what God thinks
You said God was not against atheism though. How could you possibly know that?
I know that because there is a lot of truths in Atheism.

That truth is the marker of God.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. Therefore if God is in favour of it, it also means he's in favour of people not believing in him.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:22 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.
I cannot be against what I do not acknowledge the existence of. I can be against the belief in the existence of something I do do not acknowledge the existence of, that is quite different.
That is great for your self, and I respect any individual stance.

The thing is that the name "atheism" (capitalized or not) has God (Greek = Theo) built into its name.

Therefore the name Atheist mean "no God" and thereby that position is against God or anti-God.

Perhaps "Humanism" would be more accurate for the doctrine you describe above?
I talk of no doctrine it you want to talk about a doctrine then perhaps humanism is what you should be talking about

Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:That is a one-sided sword which cuts only one way.
Most objects I know of have at least two sides with the exception of the Möbius strip which has one edge and one face.
JP Cusick wrote:There is no need to argue every blessed word.
You are having a problem with words now? How else are we to know what you mean.

JP Cusick wrote:The sword in question has a one sided blade as the other side is blunt - as if that was not an obvious intent.
I think you mean what is commonly regarded as a single EDGED sword such as a sabre or a scimitar.

Heretic wrote:Can you show that atheism has any relationship at all with any form of righteousness?
JP Cusick wrote:My point is really to demonstrate a severe lack or absence of righteousness.

Not the reverse.
Then demonstrate it. Perhaps you might start by defining what you mean by righteousness so that we are all talking about the same thing, this description would I take it be recognised by all theists? or just by some?(then who) or just by you?

Then demonstrate how the lack of this "righteousness" that you describe applies to the set of all atheists (meaning there is not one atheist that it fails to apply to)

Heretic wrote:You obviously have a motive for being here so why don't you say what you really want to say and we can debate with you properly.

You obviously want to say something and I am waiting to hear it.
JP Cusick wrote:I really did not want to create some big or dominant agenda as that would not be productive here - IMO.
Is that not exactly what you intended (I ask the question because frequently I do not know what you mean or intend to say.
JP Cusick wrote:For me it was either talk about this subject and get it out - or else I was going to have to leave here without any satisfaction.
That sounds like someone that wanted to come in, make a mess on the carpet and then leave without so much as a cheery wave goodbye.

Heretic wrote:It would be interesting to discover if you could get together one or two other voices together so that we know that you are not "as one crying in the wilderness".
JP Cusick wrote:I would like that too - but no.

As such I kind of like the = "as one crying in the wilderness".

Works for me.
That translates as I'm making this up as I go along. Doesn't it?

Peace

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:24 pm

stu wrote:Your knowledge is rarely exceded along with your philosophy Heretic, excellent post.
Thankyou, I'll put that one in the bank for when I mess up.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by blueturando on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:26 pm

As my perception is that God declares not to lie or to cheat or adultery or stealing, on and on etc etc...

The Atheist is a negative doctrine of no God, but that includes no commandments too
Maybe people who believe in God are more prone to committing such acts as Adultery, murder ect and that's why they need commandments in an attempt to stay on a straight path. History tells us that many wars, murders, sexual abuse and so forth were committed by people who believe in god, or in the name of a god.

Maybe athiests are more stable people who can control such urges without having to be reminded on every Sunday to be good people.

JP, perhaps if you want to remain a good person then a therepist maybe of more use to you than the invisable man in the sky

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:34 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Heretic wrote:Negative Theology is where instead of approaching truth by approaching it directly you approach truth by eliminating all those things that are not true you slowly begin to discover what is true.
We agree with this one.   :yeahthat: 

Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:but that includes no commandments too.
Who needs commandments? and who is to be trusted to set them. We all have an intrinsic sense of right and wrong, we know which is done to us and we know which we do to others.
We do have lots of human-commandments in this world, as we call them as State laws and such as that.

As such we can have different Countries or even in the same Country where abortion is righteous or it is murder, where homosex is righteous or not, and adultery protected by law or not, and so yes we do have commandments, but Atheist try to pretend neutral when there is no neutrality.

Idea
If you want to talk about laws and countries then you belong in the politics forum where I suspect you would get eaten alive for some of the views you express but it you want to talk about right and wrong, morality, spirituality and the like then that that is what we talk about.

I still want to know what your agenda is? What is it that is burning inside you that you want to tell all of us? Are you the messiah? The second coming of Christ? Tell us what you want to tell us because it seems to me that you are yet to say anything of substance. That is the truth isn't it?

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:40 pm

blueturando wrote:
As my perception is that God declares not to lie or to cheat or adultery or stealing, on and on etc etc...

The Atheist is a negative doctrine of no God, but that includes no commandments too
Maybe people who believe in God are more prone to committing such acts as Adultery, murder ect and that's why they need commandments in an attempt to stay on a straight path. History tells us that many wars, murders, sexual abuse and so forth were committed by people who believe in god, or in the name of a god.

Maybe athiests are more stable people who can control such urges without having to be reminded on every Sunday to be good people.

JP, perhaps if you want to remain a good person then a therepist maybe of more use to you than the invisable man in the sky
Failing that there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster at here

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:46 pm

JP Cusick wrote:It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:An inaccurate misnomer, how can atheism be against something that it doesn't accept exists? You really are showing a poor understanding of what constitutes atheism. It isn't against god, as atheism accepts the axiomatic premise that there is no compelling empirical evidence for the existence of a deity.
It is important to give a general definition of Atheism as like on Wikipedia HERE. Atheism is a negative concept, as in saying "no" as in no God, no Deity, no conscious higher power, etc.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Again your basic polemic is entirely false, atheism is no more a negative concept than accepting that unicorns and mermaids don't exist is a negative concept. Atheism makes no claims, it simply doesn't accept the theistic claim that a deity exists, as there is no empirical evidence to support that claim.

So just because some one hates Christianity then that is not Atheist, or hating the scary Muslims is not Atheist, as one must reject the presence or the reality of any God by any name or form.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:You also appear to be confusing deism with theism, though your assertions that atheism doesn't accept the existence of any deity is correct, as there isn't one shred of empirical evidence to support the claim.
I myself declare the real existence of the "Creator Father God" but to use other names for the "Theo or Thea" is fine with me.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Then it is entirely incumbent on you to provide evidence for such a claim. If you really want to convince atheists try getting your evidence for your beliefs published in a worthy scientific journal and peer reviewed, something no theologian has ever managed to my knowledge.
 

My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness, and that appears to be the true motivation for being an Atheist.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:At least you've accurately described this as your view. However accepting things only based on evidence and having the intellectual integrity to say you don't know when that is the case is the antithesis of self righteous. Whereas the absolutes that theists deal in are axiomatically self righteous, they even believe they have the right to dismiss the beliefs of others as wrong, and their own as right, without evidence, at least atheists only dismiss beliefs based on the lack of evidence. Your last sentence is laughable, as again we see you try to claim knowledge of the mindset of a demographic of millions, without any evidence whatsoever.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Norm Deplume on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:51 pm

JP Cusick wrote:

As such we can have different Countries or even in the same Country where abortion is righteous or it is murder, where homosex is righteous or not, and adultery protected by law or not, and so yes we do have commandments, but Atheist try to pretend neutral when there is no neutrality.

Here you seem to be using "righteous" where I would use "legal". I do not consider the words to be synonyms - the former being more aligned with morality. As an illustration of the difference, slavery was legal but not righteous. Do you agree? If not, how do you define "righteous"?


Last edited by Norm Deplume on Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missed out word in bold)
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:59 pm

JP, I really do not know what goes on in that head of yours. Firstly you supposedly believe in so many religions, yet you do not believe all of any one religion, you even admit that there are wrongs in the religions you believe in. You even say that god is not against atheism? you say atheists try to pretend neutral, where there is no neutrality? atheists pretend nothing JP I can assure you, we tell it straight and that is what you do not like is it not. We tell theists that there is no god and explain to them the 85% chance why there isn't, as nothing is a certainty in deciding that fact yet. It is just as atheists we cannot see any evidence to prove there is one.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:05 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
stu wrote:JP, a form of name calling but using nice posh words to do it, calling an Atheist self-righteous, or basically pharisaic!. Ie pertaining to the pharisees, ie hypocritical, hypocrisy used against us. Sanctimonious.etc Basically JP Atheists.Atheism,= a belief that there is no god,and god does not exist, and we disagree with yourself because you give out claim after claim that cannot be verified. Also you just plainly and simply refuse to answer any questions put before you that might make you look even sillier than you do now.
Actually I see myself giving out very detailed responses and it does not matter if you demand more.

I do not see it as name-calling to say Atheist are self-righteous since they could view that as a compliment.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:So if I claim you are self righteous, as you clearly are by claiming to know what god wants, entirely without empirical evidence, you might consider that a compliment? If you do then you're an even stranger person than your posts would suggest.
As my perception is that God declares not to lie or to cheat or adultery or stealing, on and on etc etc...

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:That's because you self righteously claim know the mind and wishes of an omniscient and omnipotent being, and even more self righteously think atheists don't think lying and cheating is wrong, which is a palpably false claim. Wink 
The Atheist is a negative doctrine of no God, but that includes no commandments too.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:No it's not, you're being self righteous again, it's not  negative to accept the truth based on evidence, it is bizarre to claim to know something which you axiomatically can't.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:20 pm

Thank-you Sheldon, he really is such an ignorant man at times. Sometimes I really do believe he needs some form of mental help.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:44 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Dan Fante wrote:It seems a bit ironic calling atheists self-righteous whilst claiming to know what God thinks.
I do not claim to know what God thinks, but I will claim certain revelations as like from the Bible and the Gita and the Tao the Qur'an and from other scriptures, but those are separate from the subject here.

JP Cusick wrote:As my perception is that God declares not to lie or to cheat or adultery or stealing, on and on etc etc...
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Not only have you contradicted yourself in the same sentence above in this post, but the quote from another of your earlier posts directly contradicts your claim in this one. namely:

"I do not claim to know what God thinks"
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:When it's perfectly clear you've done precisely that, more than once. in your nect sentnece for instance...
As my perception is that God declares not to lie or to cheat or adultery or stealing, on and on etc etc...

My perspective that Atheism is a way of being self-righteous is based on my own thinking and on my own observations.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Indeed it is, and deeply flawed, spurious, and highly subjective reasoning it is as well.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:00 pm

JP Cusick wrote:I know that because there is a lot of truths in Atheism. That truth is the marker of God.
stu wrote:JP, just because we do not follow the ten commandments, that does not make us liars.cheats.adulterers.stealers. etc. As any atheist will inform you, we do not need the bible or god to live a good life and have morals.
JP Cusick wrote:What you describe is what is meant by being self-righteous. As in you can tell the truth or not depending on however it suits your self.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:So when you claim to know the truth based entirely on subjective opinion that's fine, but when an atheist like stu does so based on evidence it's self righteous? I'm pretty sure you must be able to see how absurd a claim that is, and how hypocritical a claim it is.
JP Cusick wrote:Your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time, because the righteousness is dependent only on your self.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Your logic is so obviously spurious it's hard to believe you can't see it, bit I'll explain it anyway. Firstly your claim to divine morals are based on human opinion, unless you have empirical evidence for their divine origin, and if you do then it'll come as quite a surprise to not just the atheistic world but to the theistic world as well. So claiming Atheistic morals as dependant on human opinion is risible, as it ignores the FACT that it's only human opinion that your morals are not entirely human in origin as well. What is a fact is that most biblical laws and morals are hopelessly out of date, and that alone represents compelling evidence their origins are human, and not omniscient, as the idea an omniscient mind would produce laws and morals so poor they'd date in just a few thousand years is nor just spurious but absurd.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Shirina on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:01 pm

JP Cusick wrote:Your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time, because the righteousness is dependent only on your self.
I really don't understand why "believers" try to claim that atheists are somehow less moral because we don't believe morality comes from a god. In fact, those who make this claim are themselves far more immoral, for they are the ones who would start raping and killing if ever it was found that no god exists. They are the ones held in check by a tenuous belief in an invisible law-giver. It also heavily implies that "believers" are sociopaths devoid of any sort of empathy for their potential victims. After all, according to "believers," being moral is not about wanting to treat your fellow humans with respect and compassion, it's about pleasing a wrathful god that might strike you down or send you to hell if you do harm to others.

This is precisely why these sorts of "believers" can justify their god ordering Israelites to butcher entire societies all for the sake of a massive land grab or justify Islamic fundamentalists beating women in the street for wearing pants.

They have no empathy for the rest of humanity.

It's all about god, pleasing god, trying to stave off god's anger, kissing god's arse ... morality has NOTHING to do with wanting to do right by your fellow Man or to maintain the peace among a gregarious species (us) in a peaceful and civilized society. Nope.

So if God were to come down and tell these people, "Hey, I'm leaving. You can do whatever you want," these are the people who would shrug their shoulders then murder the person next to them without so much as a pang of guilt.

And THIS is why the "atheists are morally inferior" argument is an epic and abysmal failure. It is all too easy to turn it back on the "believer" and show just how immoral THEY would have to be in order to believe their own logic.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:08 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Heretic wrote:Negative Theology is where instead of approaching truth by approaching it directly you approach truth by eliminating all those things that are not true you slowly begin to discover what is true.
We agree with this one.   :yeahthat: 

Heretic wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:but that includes no commandments too.
Who needs commandments? and who is to be trusted to set them. We all have an intrinsic sense of right and wrong, we know which is done to us and we know which we do to others.
We do have lots of human-commandments in this world, as we call them as State laws and such as that.

As such we can have different Countries or even in the same Country where abortion is righteous or it is murder, where homosex is righteous or not, and adultery protected by law or not, and so yes we do have commandments, but Atheist try to pretend neutral when there is no neutrality.

Idea
Even people of the same religion can't agree what rules, laws, and morals their god wants, so your continual assertion that atheists don't agree is meaningless. I have yet to hear anyone claim homosexuality is righteous, it is however no worse nor better than heterosexual behaviour. Only bronze age human superstitions would suggest otherwise. Nor have I seen a law that "protects" adultery, you're talking absolute nonsense I'm afraid. The last part is indecipherable I'm afraid, what is it you are claiming atheists are claiming as neutral, and what evidence are you basing the claim on?
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:11 pm

Shirina wrote:I really don't understand why "believers" try to claim that atheists are somehow less moral because we don't believe morality comes from a god.
Indeed, and it also strikes me as obvious that such a claim is very self righteous. Odd then that Cusick would claim atheists are self righteous, when it is theists, not atheists, who claim their opinion is more valid than anyone elses, and that their opinions are sanctioned by an all powerful god. If that's not self righteous I don't know what is.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by snowyflake on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:25 pm

JP Cusick wrote:It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.
 
That is a one-sided sword which cuts only one way.
 
It is important to give a general definition of Atheism as like on Wikipedia HERE.
 
Atheism is a negative concept, as in saying "no" as in no God, no Deity, no conscious higher power, etc.
 
So just because some one hates Christianity then that is not Atheist, or hating the scary Muslims is not Atheist, as one must reject the presence or the reality of any God by any name or form.
 
I myself declare the real existence of the "Creator Father God" but to use other names for the "Theo or Thea" is fine with me.  
 
My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness, and that appears to be the true motivation for being an Atheist.
 

Hi JP

I think you've got this a bit backwards. Atheism doesn't consider 'god'. It's a non-issue to most atheists. As an atheist, and former Christian, I can safely say that my life hasn't collapsed because I gave up belief in invisible people. In fact, in many ways, my life was much better, more reasoned and less delusional. I don't hate Christianity or any religion. I certainly don't hate the practitioners of any religion so long as they are good people and don't hurt anyone. I am against criminality and I particularly despise criminality behind the cloak of religiosity. It's hypocritical yet we see it quite often in the news.

The other thing I learned when I discarded irrational belief in invisible people was that I am still a good person. I lead a good life, love my family and friends, help those I can and don't waste my time worrying about whether or not I'll go to heaven or hello when I die. Now, if I can be all those things without belief in God, why do I need to believe?

My own morality is a blend of religion, law and what seems right to me. It does not seem right to me to discriminate against homosexuals for instance. Your Reverend Phelps believes otherwise and he is campaigning against gays and advocating death to homosexuals. That is not loving, kind, or anything remotely resembling Jesus (who might have been gay himself since he wasn't married at the ripe old age of 33- unheard of in Jewish tradition). In any case, as an adult I am perfectly aware of what is right and what is wrong. I don't need a bible, a preacher or a church to tell me do I? Neither do you.

My guess is your belief stems from fear of death. Humans tend to have over-inflated views about their own importance and think that a God (an omnipotent, omniscient being for crying out loud!) has taken a personal interest in the measly little lives of believers. I find it astonishing in a grown man.

In any case, atheists can live good, decent lives without faith or belief. You are an atheist as well since you only believe in the Abrahamic God and discount all others. Atheists just discount all of them.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:37 pm

I think many atheists have a similar experience of life as you with the defining element being the length of time it took in wasted years before making the decision to jump. Unlike the view of many Christians that would like to dismiss all Christian to atheist journeys as those of backsliders they are loath to admit that most that take that journey were their most committed, studious and effective members. They are often also really angry at how they had been deceived. Hence the desire to help others make the small journey into sanity.
 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:51 pm

Hi Sheldon, apologies first my friend, how is your back at the moment? hope it has improved. That was the main thing Sheldon, firstly calling myself self-righteous. I really could not understand the reasoning behind his thinking at all. It's all his opinion surely, as he cannot have any dictionary/thesaurus to explain to himself the meaning of his posts. I don't even believe he posesses a bible to tell you the truth.
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Reply.

Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Dan Fante wrote:Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. Therefore if God is in favour of it, it also means he's in favour of people not believing in him.
The reason for that is because people put far too much significance and value onto "belief" when belief is a very low attribute which is worth very little.

It matters what we do and how we act.

So a religious person goes out to lie, cheat, steal, then it would make no difference if they believed everything perfectly.

So too if some Atheist or non-believer does not lie, cheat, steal, then it would make no difference that their believed beliefs are wrong.

Atheist are more accurate then are the religions in viewing that so-called omnipotent God as not being real.


==========================================


Heretic wrote:What is it that is burning inside you that you want to tell all of us? Are you the messiah? The second coming of Christ? Tell us what you want to tell us because it seems to me that you are yet to say anything of substance. That is the truth isn't it?
I really could and would tell much more but it is too hard for me to get past the solid walls of denial and fear that I am up against.

And no, I do not claim to be anyone special, as I am no messiah or 2nd coming of Christ, as I just like discussing about the most important things in life.

One of my commandment is not to give valuable meats unto the dogs, and it is not that the dogs will not devour it all, but that it is wasted by the dogs.

==========================================

Norm Deplume wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:

As such we can have different Countries or even in the same Country where abortion is righteous or it is murder, where homosex is righteous or not, and adultery protected by law or not, and so yes we do have commandments, but Atheist try to pretend neutral when there is no neutrality.
Here you seem to be using "righteous" where I would use "legal". I do not consider the words to be synonyms - the former being more aligned with morality. As an illustration of the difference, slavery was legal but not righteous. Do you agree? If not, how do you define "righteous"?
You saying that laws and morality are not synonymous really was a distinct part of my point.

Viewing human laws as justice or as justification is full of very real dangers.

And yes I agree = Slavery was legal but not righteous.

All laws need to be morally upright, or else we are morally obliged to defy such laws.

study 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:05 pm

stu wrote:Hi Sheldon, apologies first my friend, how is your back at the moment? hope it has improved. That was the main thing Sheldon, firstly calling myself self-righteous. I really could not understand the reasoning behind his thinking at all. It's all his opinion surely, as he cannot have any dictionary/thesaurus to explain to himself the meaning of his posts. I don't even believe he posesses a bible to tell you the truth.
free bible software

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:06 pm

stu wrote:Hi Sheldon, apologies first my friend, how is your back at the moment? hope it has improved. That was the main thing Sheldon, firstly calling myself self-righteous. I really could not understand the reasoning behind his thinking at all. It's all his opinion surely, as he cannot have any dictionary/thesaurus to explain to himself the meaning of his posts. I don't even believe he posesses a bible to tell you the truth.
Hi stu, it's on the mend thank you. As for Cusick's claim he seems to delight in saying things that are palpably untrue, I can't decide whether he's trolling or is just wilfully ignorant.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:08 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Dan Fante wrote:Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. Therefore if God is in favour of it, it also means he's in favour of people not believing in him.
The reason for that is because people put far too much significance and value onto "belief" when belief is a very low attribute which is worth very little.

It matters what we do and how we act.

So a religious person goes out to lie, cheat, steal, then it would make no difference if they believed everything perfectly.

So too if some Atheist or non-believer does not lie, cheat, steal, then it would make no difference that their believed beliefs are wrong.

Atheist are more accurate then are the religions in viewing that so-called omnipotent God as not being real.


==========================================


Heretic wrote:What is it that is burning inside you that you want to tell all of us? Are you the messiah? The second coming of Christ? Tell us what you want to tell us because it seems to me that you are yet to say anything of substance. That is the truth isn't it?
I really could and would tell much more but it is too hard for me to get past the solid walls of denial and fear that I am up against.

And no, I do not claim to be anyone special, as I am no messiah or 2nd coming of Christ, as I just like discussing about the most important things in life.

One of my commandment is not to give valuable meats unto the dogs, and it is not that the dogs will not devour it all, but that it is wasted by the dogs.

==========================================

Norm Deplume wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:

As such we can have different Countries or even in the same Country where abortion is righteous or it is murder, where homosex is righteous or not, and adultery protected by law or not, and so yes we do have commandments, but Atheist try to pretend neutral when there is no neutrality.
Here you seem to be using "righteous" where I would use "legal". I do not consider the words to be synonyms - the former being more aligned with morality. As an illustration of the difference, slavery was legal but not righteous. Do you agree? If not, how do you define "righteous"?
You saying that laws and morality are not synonymous really was a distinct part of my point.

Viewing human laws as justice or as justification is full of very real dangers.

And yes I agree = Slavery was legal but not righteous.

All laws need to be morally upright, or else we are morally obliged to defy such laws.

study 
Troll? Surely a troll? Read the line about feeding dogs?? No sane person would write these things in earnest would they? No 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by snowyflake on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:12 pm

JP wrote:JP Cusick wrote:Your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time, because the righteousness is dependent only on your self.
Right. Whether you believe in a God or not your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time. You are a self-confessed sinner. Which means your word is totally subjective and as you are prone to sinning, I would have great difficulty in accepting your word on anything.

BTW, I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, or intentionally hurt other people. If I hurt another person, I make amends and apologise to the person (NOTE: Not to God who has nothing to do with it). This is what adults do. Take responsibility. One does not need a god to live a good and moral life.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Shirina on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:21 pm

Hi, Snowy,

I just edited one of your posts so the quote box would show up. For some reason, one of the quoted emoticons was keeping the quote function from working.
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Returning.

Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:24 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Troll? Surely a troll? Read the line about feeding dogs?? No sane person would write these things in earnest would they? No 
I figure that I would always be viewed as a troll by someone like your self.

Plus the dog feeding came from a Bible text. FYI.


=================================


snowyflake wrote:
JP wrote:JP Cusick wrote:Your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time, because the righteousness is dependent only on your self.
Right. Whether you believe in a God or not your morals and actions are totally dependent on however you feel at any given time. You are a self-confessed sinner. Which means your word is totally subjective and as you are prone to sinning, I would have great difficulty in accepting your word on anything.
I honestly do not ask you or anyone to believe me - no.

When I tell things then I expect you each and all to use your own mind and your conscience and your own judgement and then believe your self.

When you judge my words as accurate then believe your own judgement.

snowyflake wrote:BTW, I don't lie, steal, commit adultery, or intentionally hurt other people. If I hurt another person, I make amends and apologise to the person (NOTE: Not to God who has nothing to do with it). This is what adults do. Take responsibility. One does not need a god to live a good and moral life.
Then you are far closer to God then you might realize.

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