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Atheism versus God

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Atheism versus God

Post by JP Cusick on Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

It is Atheism against God but God is not against Atheism.
 
That is a one-sided sword which cuts only one way.
 
It is important to give a general definition of Atheism as like on Wikipedia HERE.
 
Atheism is a negative concept, as in saying "no" as in no God, no Deity, no conscious higher power, etc.
 
So just because some one hates Christianity then that is not Atheist, or hating the scary Muslims is not Atheist, as one must reject the presence or the reality of any God by any name or form.
 
I myself declare the real existence of the "Creator Father God" but to use other names for the "Theo or Thea" is fine with me.  
 
My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness, and that appears to be the true motivation for being an Atheist.
 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:43 am

JP, could you stick a wink on the end of these posts, just to let me know you're not being serious? As I really don't want to countenance the notion that you're being sincere. Cheers.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Norm Deplume on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:15 am

JP Cusick wrote:
 
Having no "judgements from God" along with no rules and no principles and no commandments makes so that virtually everything Atheist is thereby self-righteous indeed.
 
It is true that atheists have no 'commandments', but it is untrue and insulting to say that we do not have principles or rules. It is a common misconception for believers to think that any moral or ethical guidelines can only be derived from their ill-defined deity. Theists and atheists alike are capable of considering the consequences of their actions and avoiding detrimental effects on others, but some consider that they need not bother because the precepts of an invisible, intangible egomaniac have been passed to them by their fellow dupes.


It is a characteristic of many atheists to be uncertain about most things basing opinions and actions on probability not dogma or conviction. This is the opposite of self-righteousness which is more often associated with blinkered religious fanatics who will not entertain even the suggestion that they might be mistaken.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Bellatori on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Norm Deplume wrote:
JP Cusick wrote:
 
Having no "judgements from God" along with no rules and no principles and no commandments makes so that virtually everything Atheist is thereby self-righteous indeed.
 
It is true that atheists have no 'commandments', but it is untrue and insulting to say that we do not have principles or rules. It is a common misconception for believers to think that any moral or ethical guidelines can only be derived from their ill-defined deity. Theists and atheists alike are capable of considering the consequences of their actions and avoiding detrimental effects on others, but some consider that they need not bother because the precepts of an invisible, intangible egomaniac have been passed to them by their fellow dupes.


It is a characteristic of many atheists to be uncertain about most things basing opinions and actions on probability not dogma or conviction. This is the opposite of self-righteousness which is more often associated with blinkered religious fanatics who will not entertain even the suggestion that they might be mistaken.
Hi Norm... I find the whole posit laughable to be honest. Where do theists think that ethics developed from? Did ethics simply come into being in a blinding flash from the heavens somewhere around 6000BCE when the bible was first written? It hardly takes any thought at all to realise how ludicrous it is to relate ethics to religion.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:40 pm

 Well Bellatori you know my thoughts on JP already, he says he is going to stop posting and find somewhere else but one doubts anywhere else would have him. thumbsdown 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Tosh on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:33 pm

Hi Snowy,

I was banned by Forever Sunshine some months ago for daring to post on other forums, I migrated to a forum on sectarianism, both Protestant and Catholics found my atheistic position even more irritating than their opposite number.

I believe JP is a wind up troll, either that or he is student of William Lane Craig, his arguments are identical.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Ivan on Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:47 pm

It will be a pity if anyone feels the need to leave the forum because of hostile responses from other members on these threads.

Polite note to all: If you want to have discussions with individual members, please conduct them via the personal messaging system. Thanks.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:20 pm

Well said, Ivan.  No need for anyone to feel rejected by our friendly discussions, though of course strongly-held opinions may be fiercely ventilated on occasion, there is never any excuse for personal attacks.

That said, sensitive flowers should always be cautious of what they disclose on any public forum.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Shirina on Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:04 pm

JP Cusick wrote:The thing is though that religions do have "judgements from God" along with other rules and principles and commandments, so in that case of religion (or Theism) it is far more difficult to be self righteous.
First of all, let me say that I do understand what you mean by "self righteous" although the common use of that phrase has a very different and negative meaning. I think what you're trying to say by "self righteous" is that morality, values, and mores come from the self ... i.e. "self righteous."

However, to claim that theists have a harder time of being "self righteous" is an erroneous statement. As you clearly pointed out, people cherry pick from the Bible - just as I'm sure people cherry pick from the other holy scriptures around the world. Now, I personally don't see anything even coming close to being "divinely inspired," but for those who do ... well ... who is to say which verses and parts of scripture will be picked and which parts are left to rot on the vine? Once people begin cherry picking those verses and then a) living by them and b) trying to force everyone else to live by them, then those people become "self righteous." Oh, they may have a holy book to reinforce their self-righteousness, but because they picked for themselves what is divinely inspired, it is still "self righteousness" as you mean it. This is why there are 30,000 or more Christian denominations, sects, cults, factions, and clubs.

JP Cusick wrote:The Atheist is just a negative kind of religion with nothing to believe in except the negativity of there being no God.
That's not really true. Atheists believe in a great number of things. We just don't believe in a god -- especially a personal god who judges us, metes out rewards and punishments, intervenes in our lives, and then sentences us to an afterlife particular to this god's divine edict. To say that atheists have nothing to believe in simply isn't accurate.

JP Cusick wrote:Having no "judgements from God" along with no rules and no principles and no commandments makes so that virtually everything Atheist is thereby self-righteous indeed.
Which is actually a good thing. Atheism doesn't come with a set of ancient rules that outlines who to hate and who not to.

JP Cusick wrote:Everyone getting saved is a far more intimidating message than the nonsense about Heaven and Hell.
This is what I've been saying all along, assuming there is an afterlife. Yet I prefer not to call it "getting saved" as that has religious implications. I believe that IF there is an afterlife, we all go there because it would be another stage of human growth and evolution. To say that only some people go to this afterlife would be like saying only some people pass through adolescence. Nor do I believe that any sort of "god" presides over this afterlife.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:57 pm

Well said Shirina, now your post teaches us all how to disagree, yet how to do it in a calm and understanding manner. I have not posted as much as usual today as I have been busy shopping,decorating,walking the dog and even changing my supplier of gas and electricity to get a better deal so it has been all go today.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Bellatori on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:08 pm

stu wrote:Well said Shirina, now your post teaches us all how to disagree, yet how to do it in a calm and understanding manner. I have not posted as much as usual today as I have been busy shopping,decorating,walking the dog and even changing my supplier of gas and electricity to get a better deal so it has been all go today.
Just got my notification of change from my new supplier! As I have only electricity it is easy to compare. Just look at the price per unit. I have cut mine from 15 to 11 pence per unit. A saving of 25%. What is interesting is that if my supplier can do it for that price then why can the others not?

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Post by JP Cusick on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:31 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:We can go to any mental institution and hear limitless claims that are palpably untrue, so by your logic the ravings of every lunatic would be empirical evidence of their claims. Is that what you're saying?
The Merriam-Webster Dictionary tells us that visual experience is empirical evidence - so yes.

I do say that many people have been forced into Psychiatric care and Lunatic Asylums simply because the "normal" people were too afraid to hear what the so called "lunatic" was really telling.

When someone sees things or hear voices then they are crazy or psychotic or schizo - well no.

Some people truly are mentally ill, but communicating with the spiritual world can be quite sane.


=============================================


Dan Fante wrote:JP, could you stick a wink on the end of these posts, just to let me know you're not being serious? As I really don't want to countenance the notion that you're being sincere. Cheers.
That is your own defect, and has nothing to do with me.

Failure to believe - is another defect of Atheism too.

I am almost always being serious and sincere, and it is sinful for me to be otherwise.

So there is to be no winking from me.


=============================================


snowyflake wrote:Nope JP. Still not getting it. So the little girl is raped and murdered in this universe but that's ok because in another universe she isn't. And she gets to have an afterlife so being murdered in this one doesn't matter.

Pardon me if I think your morality is just a bit waffly.
I am not saying that it is right to rape or to murder anyone, and I say those crimes matter very much.

You (and your kind) reject the truths and the reality of God and then blame God for the ignorant and evil world that we humans have created for our selves.

If you really want God to stop violent crime or to strike down murderers then God would have to start striking down every abortionist too, and strike down the war mongers, and we would have people dropping dead all over the place.

What God did do was established the trial by 12 man jury, and having witnesses and evidence and a professional Judge along with prison houses too, but summary judgement including instant executions do not come from God.  

My own USA is playing God as you describe because we use Drones with guided missiles to murder people anywhere in the world simply because we judge and execute without any due process of law.

I say to thank God that the real God is not so barbaric as people expect of Him, and not so barbaric as are people.

In World War II when the Nazis were killing / murdering millions of people then we can see God along with the Allies on the beaches of Normandy in 1944.
The same when India freed itself from the Colonial rule then God can be seen through the Mahatma Gandhi.
And in the USA we see God in Abe Lincoln, and in Martin Luther King, and God is very busy in this world.

You criticize God for not being there for that one specific crime, but where were you? where were the human police? and what are you and others doing now to stop any future crime? because in this world most people do not let nor invite God into any of our other business.

The idea that God can or could strike down anyone with a lightening bolt is a human invention.  

snowyflake wrote:
And you think atheists have no morals.
I do not say that Atheist do not have morals.

The Atheist have self-righteous morals.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:37 pm

 Exactly, not only that, i'm now guaranteed no price rises for two years. Seeing as british gas has just put theres up 10% so to hell they went. lol! 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by snowyflake on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:50 pm

JP wrote:When someone sees things or hear voices then they are crazy or psychotic or schizo - well no.
Wellll..........yes......sorry but yes they are. The human brain is prone to trickery and delusion. There is no spirit world to communicate with and anyone who tells you there is, is trying to take your money.

JP wrote:Some people truly are mentally ill, but communicating with the spiritual world can be quite sane.
Welllll...........no. Sorry, but that is rubbish. There is no evidence to prove an afterlife. There is no evidence of other realms. You believe in multi-universes but there is no evidence for it.

JP wrote:You (and your kind) reject the truths and the reality of God and then blame God for the ignorant and evil world that we humans have created for our selves.
You (and your kind) reject the truths and the reality of reality. The world is not as evil as you think it is and it is less evil than it has ever been in our history. Even 100 hundred years ago no one raised an eyebrow if an employer hit his employee, sexually abused his domestic staff or racially abused foreigners. Sexual abuse and domestic violence was the 'hidden secret' that no one talked about.

Did you watch the lecture by Steven Pinker. I would be very interested in your opinion and whether or not his evidence would change your view of the world. I would bet in your everyday life, there are very few evil people that you know or deal with directly.
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Reply.

Post by JP Cusick on Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:51 pm

Norm Deplume wrote:It is true that atheists have no 'commandments', but it is untrue and insulting to say that we do not have principles or rules. It is a common misconception for believers to think that any moral or ethical guidelines can only be derived from their ill-defined deity. Theists and atheists alike are capable of considering the consequences of their actions and avoiding detrimental effects on others, but some consider that they need not bother because the precepts of an invisible, intangible egomaniac have been passed to them by their fellow dupes.
The thing is that Atheism has no self-generated commandments or principles or doctrine other than that there is no God.

Any individual Atheist might have their own high standards, just as some religious people might have their own higher standards, but as an "ism" then Atheism has none.

As like Adolf Hitler could have been an Atheist, Genghis Kan could have been an Atheist, and I myself could become an Atheist simply by denying the existence of God as there is no other criteria.  

If anyone goes out killing people and raping people and stealing stuff and using profanity and cursing and claim they were following their own Atheist religion - then so they are.

The reason that we have any morality or ethics in this world is because those were given to us all by the religions of this world.


===========================================

Shirina wrote:First of all, let me say that I do understand what you mean by "self righteous" although the common use of that phrase has a very different and negative meaning. I think what you're trying to say by "self righteous" is that morality, values, and mores come from the self ... i.e. "self righteous."
Yes, that is it exactly.

Shirina wrote:This is what I've been saying all along, assuming there is an afterlife. Yet I prefer not to call it "getting saved" as that has religious implications. I believe that IF there is an afterlife, we all go there because it would be another stage of human growth and evolution. To say that only some people go to this afterlife would be like saying only some people pass through adolescence. Nor do I believe that any sort of "god" presides over this afterlife.
When you say a thing as this then you really touch my heart.

And I agree with this = "it would be another stage of human growth and evolution."

And of course everyone gets saved, but we will have to wait and see whatever God might do or not do at that time.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:13 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:We can go to any mental institution and hear limitless claims that are palpably untrue, so by your logic the ravings of every lunatic would be empirical evidence of their claims. Is that what you're saying?
JP Cusick: The Merriam-Webster Dictionary tells us that visual experience is empirical evidence - so yes. I do say that many people have been forced into Psychiatric care and Lunatic Asylums simply because the "normal" people were too afraid to hear what the so called "lunatic" was really telling. When someone sees things or hear voices then they are crazy or psychotic or schizo - well no. Some people truly are mentally ill, but communicating with the spiritual world can be quite sane.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:ONE MORE TIME THEN...AND YOU TESTED THESE EXPERIENCES HOW???? IN WHICH SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL WERE THE FINDINGS PUBLISHED??? WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THE SCIENTIFIC PEER REVIEW OF THOSE FINDINGS???
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Now you can go on ignoring that question, but I'll just keep asking it every time you try to claim you have empirical evidence for something metaphysical.  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JP Cusick: Failure to believe - is another defect of Atheism too.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Then you need to look up atheism in the dictionary as well, as rejection of belief is the very definition of atheism:

atheism
noun
1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick: You (and your kind) reject the truths and the reality of God and then blame God for the ignorant and evil world that we humans have created for our selves.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:How can an atheist blame a deity for anything? You really are not grasping what an atheist is are you..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick: If you really want God to stop violent crime or to strike down murderers then God would have to start striking down every abortionist too, and strike down the war mongers, and we would have people dropping dead all over the place.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:How can someone want something from a fictional being? You seem to think that atheists pointing out the innate paradoxes in theistic claims for their god are not hypothetical, but are meant literally? You need a rethink.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick: What God did do was established the trial by 12 man jury, and having witnesses and evidence and a professional Judge along with prison houses too, but summary judgement including instant executions do not come from God.  
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Utterly wrong, humans invented that system, no god was involved. The second part doesn't tally with many of the claims in the bible, even allowing for the risible way you cherry pick which parts you like, and the egotistical way you claim absolute knowledge of what's true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick: My own USA is playing God as you describe because we use Drones with guided missiles to murder people anywhere in the world simply because we judge and execute without any due process of law.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Whilst I am no fan of the use of drones or war and America has a chequered past in terms of it's record on human rights, they generally don't bomb other countries arbitrarily, and you are acting as if they were not attacked repeatedly by theistic fascists.
JP Cusick: I say to thank God that the real God is not so barbaric as people expect of Him, and not so barbaric as are people.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Leaf through the bible then, as you clearly haven't read the old testament,or are simply ignoring anything that won't fit inside your blinkered world view. Which is it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JP Cusick wrote:In World War II when the Nazis were killing / murdering millions of people then we can see God along with the Allies on the beaches of Normandy
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Your problem here is that the vast majority of Germans were christians, they were allied with Italy, now lets see if you can work out what the largest demographic is in Italy? So your claim is not only axiomatically false, but exhibits the reasoning skills of a village idiot.

JP Cusick:The same when India freed itself from the Colonial rule then God can be seen through the Mahatma Gandhi.
And in the USA we see God in Abe Lincoln, and in Martin Luther King, and God is very busy in this world.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Yes we get it, you want to cherry pick which theists are real theists, and arbitrarily reject all the theists you don't like, it doesn't work like that, unless you have the reasoning skills of a child.
JP Cusick: You criticize God for not being there for that one specific crime, but where were you?
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Whoever you're talking to is human, not a deity with limitless knowledge, power, and benevolence, and again these claims are made by your religion so don't waste anyone's time denying it. And it's not a criticism of god, as atheists don't believe in god, it's just a logical premise showing the inate paradoxes created by theistic claims for their gods.

JP Cusick: The idea that God can or could strike down anyone with a lightening bolt is a human invention.  
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Absolutely, as is the idea of god itself.
JP Cusick: I do not say that Atheist do not have morals. The Atheist have self-righteous morals.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:It's theists who deal in absolutes, not atheists, it's not self righteous to experience a moral dichotomy when faced with complex questions relating to human behaviour and societal laws. What's self righteous is the flase assumption that your opinion is sanctioned by an all powerful deity, and only you know what it wants, and everyone else, even other theists who disagree with you are wrong and incapable of knowing what you know, now that's self righteous.  
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:17 pm

JP, you keep agreeing with Shirina's post right down 'til the last line of yours, then what happens? you say we will have to wait and see what god does. YET Shirina has said that she does not believe there is a god to preside over this afterlife of which she was talking about.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Norm Deplume on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:30 pm

JP Cusick wrote:

The thing is that Atheism has no self-generated commandments or principles or doctrine other than that there is no God.
Why "self-generated"?

JP Cusick wrote:
Any individual Atheist might have their own high standards, just as some religious people might have their own higher standards, but as an "ism" then Atheism has none.
Why "higher" standards? Belief in one or more gods indicates a greater credulity not higher ethical or moral standards. (I assume you meant ethical/moral standards even though not explicitly stated.)

JP Cusick wrote:
As like Adolf Hitler could have been an Atheist, Genghis Kan could have been an Atheist, and I myself could become an Atheist simply by denying the existence of God as there is no other criteria.
Certainly no higher standards exhibited by either of these theists.

[Language note: there are no other criteria, or there is no other criterion.]

JP Cusick wrote:
If anyone goes out killing people and raping people and stealing stuff and using profanity and cursing and claim they were following their own Atheist religion - then so they are.
What atheist religion would this be? Buddhism, perhaps?

JP Cusick wrote:
The reason that we have any morality or ethics in this world is because those were given to us all by the religions of this world.
There are two obvious problems with this statement:


  • first, morality and ethics arise from the opinions of men and women;
  • second, some of the other primates exhibit a sense of fairness that acts as a basis for ethical behaviour, though as far as anyone knows they have no religions.


JP Cusick wrote:
And of course everyone gets saved, but we will have to wait and see whatever God might do or not do at that time.

What is everyone saved from?
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Post by JP Cusick on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:41 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:ONE MORE TIME THEN...AND YOU TESTED THESE EXPERIENCES HOW???? IN WHICH SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL WERE THE FINDINGS PUBLISHED??? WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THE SCIENTIFIC PEER REVIEW OF THOSE FINDINGS???

Now you can go on ignoring that question, but I'll just keep asking it every time you try to claim you have empirical evidence for something metaphysical. 
The answer is given in that if you your self want to do some other experiments or whatever then that is up to you as that is your own business and not mine.

I am standing by the empirical evidence as I see the thing(s) and hear the things and experience the things and that is a plenty enough for me.

It is not my intention to convince you or to prove anything to you as your mentality is no concern to me.

If you do not believe the empirical evidence in front of your own face then boohoo to you.

The Scientific Journals are not scriptures to me.


====================================


stu wrote:JP, you keep agreeing with Shirina's post right down 'til the last line of yours, then what happens? you say we will have to wait and see what god does. YET Shirina has said that she does not believe there is a god to preside over this afterlife of which she was talking about.
We all have to wait for God, and it does not matter if we believe in God or Not.

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Post by JP Cusick on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:45 pm

Norm Deplume wrote:What is everyone saved from?
Saved from death.
From no-longer existing.
Saved from being irreverent.
From having no meaning to your life.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:59 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:ONE MORE TIME THEN...AND YOU TESTED THESE EXPERIENCES HOW???? IN WHICH SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL WERE THE FINDINGS PUBLISHED??? WHAT WERE THE RESULTS OF THE SCIENTIFIC PEER REVIEW OF THOSE FINDINGS???

Now you can go on ignoring that question, but I'll just keep asking it every time you try to claim you have empirical evidence for something metaphysical. 
JP CusickThe answer is given in that if you your self want to do some other experiments or whatever then that is up to you as that is your own business and not mine. I am standing by the empirical evidence as I see the thing(s) and hear the things and experience the things and that is a plenty enough for me.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:So you made no effort to objectively and empirically test these experiences. Then as I have repeatedly told you what you're talking about is not empirical evidence.
JP CusickIt is not my intention to convince you or to prove anything to you as your mentality is no concern to me.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Your apologetics are very far from convincing, your claims are arbitrary even by theistic standards, there is no cogent reasoning, no logical structure, you've offered no compelling evidence, let alone proof, and to be honest you don't appear to even know the difference, or even what constitutes evidence as opposed to subjective opinion.
JP CusickIf you do not believe the empirical evidence in front of your own face then boohoo to you.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:You've offered no evidence, and that link is fairly childish don't you think? What is it you think you're achieving with such puerile behaviour?
JP CusickThe Scientific Journals are not scriptures to me.
 
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Nor are they to me, scripture is drawn from ancient superstitions, scientific journals publish only well researched, thoroughly evidenced hypothesis and ideas, whose conclusions are reached by objective robust scientific processes, which is why metaphysical  fantasies like religions don't get published.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Norm Deplume on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:03 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Norm Deplume wrote:What is everyone saved from?
Saved from death.
From no-longer existing.
Saved from being irreverent.
From having no meaning to your life.

How can you be saved from death when you are dead?
How does a state of non-existence after death differ from the same state before birth?
Irreverence is a religious term and I fail to see the relevance.
Once you are dead, it is too late to alter any aspect of your life even if one accepts your implication that my or anyone else's life has no meaning.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:07 pm

JP Cusick wrote:
Norm Deplume wrote:What is everyone saved from?
Saved from death.
From no-longer existing.
Saved from being irreverent.
From having no meaning to your life.

Like a Star @ heaven
Will you be saved from the irreverent way you treat people who don't share your beliefs? Or does this fantasy claim again cherry pick only the things you think should be show reverence? I already have meaning to my life, so I don't need to delude myself in a deity for that. What evidence can you present that anyone survives their own death other than in the minds of those who are left?
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:16 pm

JP, you say we all have to wait for god wether we believe or not, you agreed with Shirinas post knowing that she is an atheist,and knowing she did not believe there was a god for any of it. THEN YOU DISAGREED AT THE END? Why therefore did you agree in the first place? it shows signs of double standards to put it politely.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Heretic on Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:41 am

Heretic wrote:
Shirina wrote:And last but not least ...

You guys are straining the limits of what is acceptable behavior in a debate. I'm seeing way too many personal attacks on JP Cusick. You can attack his ideas all you wish, but calling HIM an idiot and stupid and ignorant, etc. well ... we just don't like that. This is especially true when there's a whole lot of you and only one of him.
I'm sorry but I struggle to see how a sane or reasonable person could believe the rubbish that he comes out with. I agree that it is the ideas that should be rubbished rather than those that hold them. But I do need to say that if he lived anywhere close to me that my neighbours would tenderly help him to be escorted to the padded van, you know the one that escorts people to that hotel with the extra thick padded wallpaper.

Sorry but I do believe the real JP to be just some adolescent kid playing wind-up and his avatar is just some red-neck politician. I will bow to the judgement of the majority (yes I do know majorities can be wrong). From now on I cannot do other than treat him as an adolescent boy as I have spent a good portion of a day trying to make sense of his gibberish and there is no coherent structure to it at all.

Thankyou for your forbearance but I think you understand entirely where I am coming from.

Peace

Heretic
Apparently I owe Mr Cusick an apology, he is what he claims to be. I've just had a heads up about the American political system and the people it attracts. So Mr JP Cusick I do apologise unreservedly for claiming you are an "adolescent kid playing wind-up" even though your posts certainly give that impression.

And Sharina I apologise to you too as you have tried to calm things down. I know it can sometimes appear that there is a bit of bullying going on when many people react to a single persons post but a board like this is all about that. When people react to one it can sometimes (but not always) be an education but that is not a certainty (nor should it be). But Sharina you are right to call someone stupid is apart from anything else bad manners. To call somebody's ideas stupid is not enough, we need to explain why somebody's ideas are stupid. I know that sometimes it is easy to assume it appears that it is self evident that ideas are stupid and that everybody else can see that. I will endeavour to show why Mr JP Cusick's appear to be those of an adolescent boy rather than just stating that that is what they are (even though that appears to be self evident too).

It's taking a bit of time to get used to how things are done around here and religion as a topic stirs strong emotions passions one way or the other which is all the more reason why things need to be explained clearly. So Sharina let us go forward in peace.

Heretic
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:29 am

JP Cusick wrote:

Failure to believe - is another defect of Atheism too.

I am almost always being serious and sincere, and it is sinful for me to be otherwise.

So there is to be no winking from me.
99% of men are winkers. The rest are liars.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Drew Jones on Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:25 am

JP Cusick wrote:My view is that Atheism is simply a form of self-righteousness, because without the judgements of a God then people get to create our own righteousness, and that appears to be the true motivation for being an Atheist.
 
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To my mind gods are invented by their earthly patrons, to that end they function as a form of self-righteous judgement of others that is disassociated from itself. We all make our own judgements just some know this and take responsibility of it.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by polyglide on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:31 am

For those who do not believe in evil spirits, I would suggest having a few friends of a like nature to be involved in a several seances involving a ouija board and see if you can contend with the outcome.

The only way that evil spirtits can affect humans is if they are invited into your life.

God warned not to be involved in any matters that could give them the chance to become involved in human life.

The fact that over the ages thousands of people have ignored the warning is evidenced by the evil we find amongst the human of today and in particular amongst the athiests.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:08 am

polyglide wrote:For those who do not believe in evil spirits, I would suggest having a few friends of a like nature to be involved in a  several seances involving a ouija board and see if you can contend with the outcome.

The only way that evil spirtits can affect humans is if they are invited into your life.

God warned not to be involved in any matters that could give them the chance to become involved in human life.

The fact that over the ages thousands of people have ignored the warning is evidenced by the evil we find amongst the human of today and in particular amongst the athiests.
You can't know that unless you've contacted evil spirits by using a Ouija board. In which case you would be guilty of ignoring God and inviting evil spirits into this world.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by polyglide on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:16 am

I do know that through the people who have actually used the Ouiji board and have wished they had never done so and are still suffering the consequences.

If you are so sure, try it.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Norm Deplume on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:16 am

polyglide wrote:For those who do not believe in evil spirits, I would suggest having a few friends of a like nature to be involved in a  several seances involving a ouija board and see if you can contend with the outcome.

The only way that evil spirtits can affect humans is if they are invited into your life.
Wouldn't seances involve inviting them into your life?

polyglide wrote:God warned not to be involved in any matters that could give them the chance to become involved in human life.

The fact that over the ages thousands of people have ignored the warning is evidenced by the evil we find amongst the human of today and in particular amongst the athiests.
Since God can be be considered an evil spirit, it's a good idea to avoid him/her/it.

Do you have any evidence to support the idea that any evil promulgated by atheists is caused by trafficking with spirits? I find it unlikely.

Does it not also follow that if atheists are influenced by "evil spirits", then theists do evil acts because they are are innately evil? (Though see above about God being an evil spirit.)

I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:20 am

polyglide wrote:I do know that through the people who have actually used the Ouiji board and have wished they had never done so and are still suffering the consequences.

If you are so sure, try it.
Repeating hearsay is not the same as knowledge although I can see why a fully signed up Christian would confuse the two. As an aside though, has anything supernatural ever been recreated under fully observed laboratory conditions? If spiritualists etc. weren't fraudulent the answer would be 'yes'. But it's not the case.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by polyglide on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:26 am

I cannot see how God can be in any way considered evil, other than by someone with less brains than an ant, no that would be an insult to the ant.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dan Fante on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:27 am

polyglide wrote:I cannot see how God can be in any way considered evil, other than by someone with less brains than an ant, no that would be an insult to the ant.
Depends whether you consider murdering babies to be evil or not I suppose.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Norm Deplume on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:37 am

polyglide wrote:I cannot see how God can be in any way considered evil, other than by someone with less brains than an ant, no that would be an insult to the ant.
Have you read the Bible at all? There are examples of murder, injustice, torture, inhumanity, destruction and theft, executed or condoned by the malevolent egomaniac whose prime virtue is non-existence.

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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:46 am

Also Norm, the bible was supposed to have witnessed all these things happening. Utter tripe.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:22 pm

polyglide wrote:For those who do not believe in evil spirits, I would suggest having a few friends of a like nature to be involved in a  several seances involving a ouija board and see if you can contend with the outcome.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:To those who indulge in this kind of nonsensical fantasy I suggest you do this yourself, and then try and scientifically test your conclusions, then try and get a scientific journal of note to publish that evidence and your conclusions, and if you manage that, and it then get's validated by peer review I'll accept your claims as valid, and come one here and type a retraction. Until then they are simply analogous to people who believe they have fairies at the bottom of their gardens, mermaids hiding in the ocean, or unicorns hiding in the forests. Them's dah rules.....Cool 
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:28 pm

polyglide wrote:I do know that through the people who have actually used the Ouiji board and have wished they had never done so and are still suffering the consequences.

If you are so sure, try it.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:So you're happy to take their word for it? If they claimed to be Napoleon Bonaparte reincarnated would you show due deference to such a claim? Or do you arbitrarily cherry pick what to believe and what not, without bothering the most successful method humans have created for objectively examining the veracity of ideas, hypothesis, claims, and evidence, scientific empiricism?
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:33 pm

polyglide wrote:I cannot see how God can be in any way considered evil, other than by someone with less brains than an ant, no that would be an insult to the ant.

Atheists don't think or claim any god to be evil as they don't believe any god exists. They can however, and quite rightly, point to the behaviour and characteristics theists assign to their gods, and then to the world we observe around us, and make logical refutations of those theistic claims. For instance any Christian who claims their omnipotent god is benevolent would need to explain to me why it spent so much time creating ubiquitous suffering like predation, as just one example, or how about disease? As that claim seems to me to have all the hallmarks of being the product of a village retard.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:35 pm

stu wrote:Also Norm, the bible was supposed to have witnessed all these things happening. Utter tripe.
Quite so Stu, and even if those theists try the risible logic of blaming original sin to try and trick their way out of the logical paradox of ubiquitous suffering and an omnipotent and benevolent god, they'd have to explain the ubiquitous suffering of things like predation, that occurred millions of years before humans evolved.
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Re: Atheism versus God

Post by stuart torr on Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:50 pm

Exactly Sheldon but they do it every time almost do they not, only honest theist you have on the other site is T.S.C. is it not?
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Reply.

Post by JP Cusick on Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:03 pm

stu wrote:JP, you say we all have to wait for god wether we believe or not, you agreed with Shirinas post knowing that she is an atheist,and knowing she did not believe there was a god for any of it. THEN YOU DISAGREED AT THE END? Why therefore did you agree in the first place? it shows signs of double standards to put it politely.
That is because she was correct and even brilliant in the first place, and only that one small part at the end was she not correct.

Nothing and no one has to be completely right or completely wrong, as we all have elements of both.

I realize that some people claim to be Atheist, but God is not subject to any belief, and God is real whether anyone believes it or not.


==============================================

Dan Fante wrote:99% of men are winkers. The rest are liars.
I did not mean to imply that I did not wink at all, as I will wink at any Lady who will let me do so.

My point was simply saying that I do not "wink" as some sign of dishonesty or of sincerity, as I never ever do that kind of winking.  


==============================================

Drew Jones wrote:To my mind gods are invented by their earthly patrons, to that end they function as a form of self-righteous judgement of others that is disassociated from itself. We all make our own judgements just some know this and take responsibility of it.
I agree that people create their own version of God, and people use our superstitions and prejudices and our fears to invent all sorts of Gods and spirits and Demons, and yes surely there are elements of self righteousness in it all.

Even Atheism is a man-made religion based on the human fears and prejudices.

I too have known of very few who "know this and take responsibility of it."


====================================


Norm Deplume wrote:Since God can be be considered an evil spirit, it's a good idea to avoid him/her/it.
Most people really are just terrified of God and that is the real reason why people know so little about the realities of God.

I also see the terror-of-God as the real reason for most religions, and for Atheism too.

Like a Star @ heaven 
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Re: Atheism versus God

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