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How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

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How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Bellatori on Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:07 am

Epicurus tried to tell us not to worry about death saying...
“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.”
which is often summed up by the very pithy

“I was not, I was, I am not, I care not. (Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo)”
The first quote is part of a much longer quote from a surviving letter he wrote.

“Accustom yourself to the belief that death is of no concern to us, since all good and evil lie in sensation and sensation ends with death. Therefore the true belief that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life happy, not by adding to it an infinite time, but by taking away the desire for immortality. For there is no reason why the man who is thoroughly assured that there is nothing to fear in death should find anything to fear in life. So, too, he is foolish who says that he fears death, not because it will be painful when it comes, but because the anticipation of it is painful; for that which is no burden when it is present gives pain to no purpose when it is anticipated. Death, the most dreaded of evils, is therefore of no concern to us; for while we exist death is not present, and when death is present we no longer exist. It is therefore nothing either to the living or to the dead since it is not present to the living, and the dead no longer are.”
It has to be born in mind that he was not an atheist as such. He did believe in God(s) but, from any practical point of view, he clearly felt that had nothing to do with us and no impact on our lives which, IMHO, makes them a somewhat redundant part of the universe.

So how DO atheists view dying? Are we all into the Kubler-Ross model (which by the by does nothave a lot of research and evidence to support it but it has almost passed into folklore)?



This rather came together as a thought when one of the posters on another site announced he was dying. Apart from rushing out to make a will I did start to think about dying. Given there is no heaven, no afterlife, I won't be reincarnated as a hero, a lion, a worm ... basically NOTHING then how do I actually feel about death. It is really going to piss me off. I want to live forever because there is so much that I do not know which is why I have just applied to do a mathematics degree. I tell myself there is time. Actuaries tell me that also. I should live ten years if I am sensible but the odds are against more than twenty.

Theists can comfort them selves with their belief. Elsewhere I have put forward this as a reason for the development of spirituality and religion. A psychological crutch to enable developing humanity to get up in the morning. If life, from an intellectual point of view (you get born; take some shit for a while then die) is rather futile this crutch becomes crucial.

So how do we deal with the concept? Epicurus says we shouldn't worry about it. Kubler-Ross says we don't worry about it until it become in your face real and then we go through a rationalisation process.

As atheists what are we going to do?

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Heretic on Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:00 pm

I think most atheists will only care for the welfare of those they leave behind. Apart from my goods and what little money I will have left all I will leave is a small book for each of my children with thoughts, memories, maybe a little advice, some of life's lessons and though there will be a lot of overlap these will be individual to each of my children.

I think I have said elsewhere that my only hope of immortality is in my children and in the effect I have on other peoples lives and with luck in the effect those people have on others.

I know that my life is not blameless, I can just hope that those left behind judge me not by the man that I once was but by the man I became.

What else is there to say? Nothing.

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Tosh on Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:50 pm

Mankind created a concept to survive its fear of mortality, an epic with ourselves as the central figure and immortal hero, given the risks, the struggle and a short lifespan this was more than understandable.

In reality the only immortal hero is the spirit of humanity and each of us play a significant role in keeping the flame alive and handing it over to the next generation. Accepting death is a humbling concept, one that makes life more precious and it is only possible because life in the modern world is not as risky, its not as big a struggle and our life expectancy has increased enormously.

Everywhere in the developed world( except the Bible Belt) religion is declining as living standards improve, we simply do not fear life like we used to, if you do not fear life then it makes it easier not to fear death.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Shirina on Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:18 pm


There really isn't a such thing as "immortality." Oh, your DNA might kick around the universe until humanity becomes extinct, but that isn't the kind of immortality I think we truly wish for. After all, immortality is fairly meaningless unless it applies to actual people and not DNA molecules.

Yet how much can most folks tell us about their great-great-great grandfathers? How many can even tell us their names? Few ... if any, I'm certain. Even having children is an unlikely avenue for immortality.

As for me, well ... back when my life was infinitely more interesting than it is now, I kept a comprehensive journal of events and that eventually turned into a history of around four years of my life written in exquisite detail. I wrote it for myself so that I would always have an accurate record of those events no matter what tricks my memory might play on me as I get older. But who knows? Perhaps some archaeologist in the distant future will dig it up and use it as a guide to how an average girl lived in a small town of our ancient past. I suppose if one worms one's way into the historical record, one can achieve a certain degree of immortality. Yet nothing lasts forever, not even the universe itself.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:28 am

I tend to think that when you're gone you're gone. I do sometimes think of people looking down on me from above but I also know that's wishful thinking on my part. My dear old gran used to say that when you die, if you're buried, the worms will eat you and you'll fertilise the earth and that's pretty much how (im)mortality works (I'm paraphrasing but you get the idea).
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by polyglide on Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:27 pm

Atheists will have no choice, the chance is here and now and not later.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Tosh on Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:47 pm

Atheists will have no choice, the chance is here and now and not later.
This is another false statement, one can be an atheist and still believe in an external consciousness.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:06 pm

polyglide wrote:the chance is here and now and not later.
You may have stumbled upon something there.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:32 pm

Dan Fante wrote:I do sometimes think of people looking down on me from above
I rather enjoy my privacy, so the idea of deceased loved ones looking down on me from On High is a little creepy. Sheesh, it makes me hesitate to take a shower - at least not without being covered!

And if anyone from the Great Beyond is watching me type this, well ... bugger off! Stop looking at me. Go away. Find some other relative to spy on, dammit!
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:42 pm

Shirina wrote:
Dan Fante wrote:I do sometimes think of people looking down on me from above
I rather enjoy my privacy, so the idea of deceased loved ones looking down on me from On High is a little creepy. Sheesh, it makes me hesitate to take a shower - at least not without being covered!

And if anyone from the Great Beyond is watching me type this, well ... bugger off! Stop looking at me. Go away. Find some other relative to spy on, dammit!
If it were true one assumes they'd have the good taste to avert their eyes when the occasion demanded it.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Norm Deplume on Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:46 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
If it were true one assumes they'd have the good taste to avert their eyes when the occasion demanded it.
That rather assumes that non-corporeal creatures would have eyes to avert.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:56 pm

Norm Deplume wrote:
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
If it were true one assumes they'd have the good taste to avert their eyes when the occasion demanded it.
That rather assumes that non-corporeal creatures would have eyes to avert.
Fair point.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:33 pm

Brilliant opening post Bellatori and also a very nice one Heretic, made me go and make a cuppa thinking that I was in for a long read. Alas it has gone off the intended scheme. Well as I have only one real member of family so to speak, and you all know that is my daughter Siobhan. I am not afraid of death or dying, never really have been, as I do not believe in the big man in the sky even though I have died twice and been to a place which most folks would describe as heaven only to be sent back because my time was not done yet.I even met my deceased father there, now most of you will be wondering why I am still an atheist i'm sure. My intelligence tells me there is no such a place,and what I saw or experienced was a mere dream whilst on a life support machine for 9weeks. The only person I love is my daughter, I have set up various accounts for her for when she leaves school and hopefully goes to college,and also for when she is older. I just hope I live long enough to find out if she does go to college etc,as that would make me one hell of a proud dad. If I lived long enough to see her get a great job I would die even happier. Me I don't give a damn about me they can throw me on the local tip won't know owt about it will I. Sad 
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Tosh on Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:45 pm

Evening stu,

Those close to death experience a sense of departure, except it is not their soul but their senses that are leaving, the last to shut down is fear and this is why some feel a sense of contentment or unafraid of dying. There was a documentary on the 40th anniversary of the Andes crash, the most fascinating details were the experiences of two men who were entombed in packed snow after an avalanche, both talked about being able to see themselves from the outside, followed by a life of rapid memories, contentment and departing toward a white light, the white light is the last image of our visual senses as they close down.

Our mind will create any concept to keep us fighting for survival, it will not let us die without a fight, all of these phenomena enhance well being in one way or another.

Out of body experience is an attempt at problem solving, trying to find a solution.
Memory recall is to keep us fighting for life.
Contentment or fear removal is to stop our heart exploding from stress.
The journey to the white light is a beckoning immortality.

In the famous last words of Steve Job...." OH WOW.....OH WOW...OH WOW ".
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:19 pm

That has described how I went twice whilst on a life support machine Tosh, when I died twice I expect. They only gave me 11 hours to live and I suprised them all even my neurologist. I feel like saying WOW after reading your post honestly. Thanks for posting it mate.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:37 pm

Tosh, I am actually in tears mate, one because I use to be a staff nurse aswell, so now I realise just how close to dying I actually was. Not once but twice aswell,the staff must have fought like hell to get me back to life again. I know they had to shock me, I still bear the marks as the hairs on my chest do not grow back there. I wish to talk so much but I can't can I, NEVER MIND.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Heretic on Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:09 pm

I was listening to one of those street preachers and at the end of his speech (it was hardly a sermon) I described to him my wife's beliefs and asked where she would be and he said in no uncertain terms that she would be in Hell. I told him in front of his audience that those were the beliefs of my wife and she was now dead. I continued by saying that I would far rather be in the hell he described than any heaven that had him in it. My reaction drew a lot of applause.

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by polyglide on Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:27 am

Atheists will be the same as someone who is told their hand will be burnt if they put it in the fire and ignore the warning.

That is not to say they will be burnt alive in hell, I believe they will be denied the life that is promised to those who believe in Jesus and his promise.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by polyglide on Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:33 am

If he was not a true Christian then he will end up where you will and you may be able to talk about your regrets in being atheists, I do not believe in hell fire etc; it is terminology meaning not a place as good as it could be, to put it mildly
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Heretic on Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:41 am

polyglide wrote:Atheists will be the same as someone who is told their hand will be burnt if they put it in the fire and ignore the warning.

That is not to say they will be burnt alive in hell, I believe they will be denied the life that is promised to those who believe in Jesus and his promise.
And that is all a self respecting atheist wants, total oblivion, a death that extends beyond eternity, beyond time and beyond the universe. Death, non-existence or whatever you want to call it. It is the only way to end an eventful life full of loves and hates, joys and weeping, a wife and children. Would I be happier in a heaven with my wife, I suspect I might but here is the question; If I see any heaven without my wife as hell and any hell with my wife as a great deal more than bearable and if you then multiply that confusion by the billions of relationships of couples and parents and friends and children and everyone, how is it possible to have a 'heaven' and a 'hell'? It just does not make any sense. One Christian that tried to explain how this was possible talked about god casting a veil over our memories so that we would forget people that are not with us. Take away my memories and I am no longer me and I wouldn't care where I was.

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It comes to us all in the end...

Post by Bellatori on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:20 pm

There is a real irony for my part in this thread. Three hours after posting this, whilst at a meal with my family I suffered a TIA Crying or Very sad . It rather brought everything into sharp relief Smile  We all get the same... one life. We are all guaranteed the same outcome, one death. It is what happens in between that matters. To fritter that time away on make believe is a terrible waste of a commodity that is always in short supply - ones life.

Hell is just a bit of religious spite. The fact that people do not actually take it literally never seems to help them take the next logical step which is to question why, if hell is merely allegorical, then why is any of the rest of the religion different. Could it not ALL be allegorical? Or to put it bluntly... if hell is bollocks then why not all the rest? Very Happy 

No one wants to die (well no one normal anyway). We don't like to talk about it because it is so final. Is that not what religion is for? To give us an excuse not to think about the unthinkable; our own mortality. An important psychological crutch BUT still a crutch nonetheless.

Heinlein had the right of it.
History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
Well pollyglide, I leave you with Dylan Thomas

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Heretic on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:24 pm

Loses something without Richard Burton reading it but a powerful reminder just the same.

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Bellatori on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:27 pm

Heretic wrote:Loses something without Richard Burton reading it but a powerful reminder just the same.

Heretic
Agreed. I have a copy of his reading of Under Milk Wood. He had a magic voice. It is definitely the Welsh. I have audio books of The Weirdstone of Brisingamen and The Moon of Gomrath both read by the late Philip Madoc. Absolutely brilliant. The voice makes the words live Smile 

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:30 pm

As we're name-dropping, a grammarian like Richard A Heinlein might have insisted upon the thread-title reading, "How are we atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?"

But who's counting anyway?
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by stuart torr on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:25 pm

Well done Heretic, if I COME ACCROSS A STREET PREACHER I will remember to do the same my man well done.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:59 pm

polyglide wrote:Atheists will be the same as someone who is told their hand will be burnt if they put it in the fire and ignore the warning.

That is not to say they will be burnt alive in hell, I believe they will be denied the life that is promised to those who believe in Jesus and his promise.
Fortunately you'll be spared the cruel knowledge that you have wasted so much of your life on this delusion, as that would indeed be too cruel. I am interested however, to hear you explain how anyone can claim a being that is omniscient omnipotent, and orchestrates a scenario where it knows as a certainty that billions will be punished and even tortured, not just during their lives, but afterwards as well, most theists claiming this torture will be eternal of course, is in any way benevolent?
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Bellatori on Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:42 pm

oftenwrong wrote:As we're name-dropping, a grammarian like Richard A Heinlein might have insisted upon the thread-title reading, "How are we atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?"

But who's counting anyway?
Robert A Heinlein for a start Smile Smile  Exclamation 

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Tosh on Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:08 pm

It is one thing to simply ignore the biological origins of our consciousness, it is another to assume our consciousness will end up somewhere good or bad. Assuming our consciousness can survive without a physical brain, it will stay in our universe and either exist in our dimensions or end up in other dimensions in our universe( seemingly they may be 11).

Why we should believe any one of these states to be good or bad is simply copying models from our natural world, which in essence describes the template for all supernatural phenomena, we just cannot help our mirror neurons from reflecting.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Shirina on Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:52 pm

Heretic wrote:If I see any heaven without my wife as hell and any hell with my wife as a great deal more than bearable and if you then multiply that confusion by the billions of relationships of couples and parents and friends and children and everyone, how is it possible to have a 'heaven' and a 'hell'?
Heh, I've thought about this in a very real sense.

The vast majority of my biological family are Hindus (of varying devoutness). None of them are Christian.

So if I were to become Christian and was whisked away to Heaven when I died, there wouldn't be anyone there for me except a bunch of effing strangers. Yeah ... like that's a big incentive to convert, right?

Of course, there's no sadness in Heaven (supposedly) so I would be happy and cheerful in my loneliness. I can only assume by this that God is, in reality, a Prozac dispenser.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Heretic on Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:37 pm

Shirina wrote:So if I were to become Christian and was whisked away to Heaven when I died, there wouldn't be anyone there for me except a bunch of effing strangers. Yeah ... like that's a big incentive to convert, right?
It's almost as though somebody had failed to think about this before creating two such eternal places. I only wish some of the people that preached this rubbish had to see the consequences of what it would of been like before their turn for oblivion.

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:51 pm

Many of my school friends were unattracted by the depiction of a Heavenly life perched on a cloud and playing a lute. A straw-poll indicated a clear preference for the other lot, who were promising various quantities of virgins.
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ATHEISTS DEMISE

Post by stuart t on Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:42 pm

Well I KNOW WHICH PLACE I WANT TO GO. Given the choice I would go to where it was warm wouldn't feel cold in winter then would I? No(Stu)


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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Heretic on Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:17 am

oftenwrong wrote:Many of my school friends were unattracted by the depiction of a Heavenly life perched on a cloud and playing a lute.  A straw-poll indicated a clear preference for the other lot, who were promising various quantities of virgins.
It didn't mention that those virgins were men?

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by polyglide on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:23 pm

I can understand the implications of the love, hate, and all the other feelings that we humans experience and that life without our loved ones and our memories would seem that life has been a waste of time.

However,we are here and we do all experience the challenges of life and with all the problems and seeming unfairness, it is hard to understand and anyone who feels that all our feelings and relationships have come about by pure chance must be unable to comprehend facts.

I do not know what form the life promised by Jesus will entail nor does anyone else, the point is if thre is no life beyond out earthy existance then we might just as well not have existed./




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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Bellatori on Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:16 pm

polyglide wrote:...the point is if thre is no life beyond out earthy existance then we might just as well not have existed.
Now you approach wisdom. This is why improved intelligence may not be a survival attribute. Dinosaurs lasted millions of years whilst the biggest mammal was the size of a shrew without the need for intelligence. I posted elsewhere about the 'Why should we get up in the morning' reason that religion developed along with intelligence. It is a survival attribute. But it is like a tail used for swinging through the trees and for balance. There comes a point in the development of a species where things become vestigial e.g. appendix. They are no longer required. This is the position of religion now. In fact I would posit that its influence is actually malign on the survival of homo sapiens.

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Heretic on Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:38 pm

polyglide wrote:I do not know what form the life promised by Jesus will entail nor does anyone else, the point is if thre is no life beyond out earthy existance then we might just as well not have existed./
BINGO!!!

And yet we create meaning, understanding too.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:28 pm

polyglide wrote:anyone who feels that all our feelings and relationships have come about by pure chance must be unable to comprehend facts.
So you're saying, then, that I can blame god for various things in my life - like being stuck with my psychotic aunt whom I had yet another physical altercation with just two days ago. My thumb and legs still hurt from that ridiculous exchange. Yeah, thanks God, for bringing that witch back into my life so I can live in stress and apprehension. I really appreciate it, you prick. As if I didn't have other things to worry about.

polyglide wrote:the point is if thre is no life beyond out earthy existance then we might just as well not have existed.
That's utter rubbish. The value of something isn't dependent upon how long it lasts. I suppose one must assume there's no point to the Bible since it doesn't have an infinite number of pages. One may as well say that there's no point to seeing a movie because it doesn't go on forever; there's no point in loving another unless we live for eternity; there's no point in finding enjoyment in life because enjoyment doesn't go on ad infinitum.

So many people - so many civilizations wasted their time always pining and preparing for the "next" life while neglecting the one they currently have. All too often, believing in these "next" lives makes committing horrible acts of brutality permissible in THIS life. We only have to look at suicide bombers to see just what I mean - yeah, who cares if I blow myself up and kill a hundred people along with me. I'll be going to heaven (yay!) where I'll sit at my Lord's right hand, eat grapes from golden bowls, and have beautiful virgins fanning me with peacock feathers. Woohoo! I can't wait! Gimme that vest of explosives and let me get out there. Hurry up already. Heaven, here I come .... !

Despicable.

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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:16 pm

Firstly Shirina, let me say how sorry I am regarding your aunt. I posted on one thread and I will repeat it on here, that your mood today seems to be down. You are so right about the suicide bombers i'm afraid, why just blow thereselves up when they can take a hundred or more with them. They are the times that I am glad that i'm not the president or prime minister of the UK.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by Shirina on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:26 pm

stu wrote:Firstly Shirina, let me say how sorry I am regarding your aunt.
Thanks.

She's a Grade A psycho ... and I really do mean that in a literal sense. My whole family is pretty well disgusted with her, even her own children. It's just that I'm an easy target ("easy" meaning "within easy reach"). I'm the only one who will actually stand up to her, though. Everyone else walks around her as if they were treading through a minefield. Perhaps if more people in my family grew a pair instead of letting her walk all over us, she would get the hint.

In a lot of ways, she is like a terrorist - always making unreasonable demands and using intimidation to get them. If you don't meet her demands, and do so with a happy face, then BOOM!

I don't stand for it, so I tend to make her explode - and then we fight. Unfortunately, when she gets angry, she lunges. The time before last, she went for my throat. I had to push her all the way across the kitchen and up against the refrigerator while warning her I'd call the police if she touched me again. We have pretty strict rules here in the US about domestic violence. I could get her locked up.

Anyhow, there's nothing for it now, I guess. I just hate being here. My life used to be rather peaceful and stress-free. Having to move back home was like being dropped into a blender and it's driving me barmy.
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Re: How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:35 pm

I understand exactly what you are saying Shirina, and from where you are coming from so to speak. I use to be a nurse and had to care for patients very similar to your aunt, is she not on any medication love?
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