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Victorian Britain

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Victorian Britain

Post by astradt1 on Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:55 pm

It would seem that academics have finally woken up, to what some have been saying here on Cutting Edge for some time, that this government is pushing Britain back to the Great Victorian era, with it's values as loved by John Major.

The latest claim is that IDS plans for Benefits will be like bring back the Poor Laws of Victorian times.....

Britons In 'Forced Penury' Due To Victorian Welfare Rules, Leading Academics Warn

Iain Duncan Smith's welfare reforms are forcing many Britons into "forced penury" as they mark an increasing return to the principles of the Victorian "Poor Laws", leading academics have warned.

Dr Chris Grover, senior lecturer in social policy at Lancaster University and an expert on the history of national insurance, told the Huffington Post UK: "We are in a situation where for many people we are heading to a situation of forced penury that is some distance from the optimism that helped frame the introduction of National Insurance benefits in 1912."

Dr Grover's stark warning was echoed by Hartley Dean, social policy professor at the London School of Economics, who told HuffPostUK that successive governments have "retreated from the principles of National Insurance in favour of stigmatising means-testing benefits."

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Some of us on here felt that Gove was trying to push Education back into the Victorian era and I have been think about the fact that the Armed forces are going to have to rely more on Reservist Forces to be able to carry out many of it's commitments is like have the old Militia or Yeomanry...

We have had Electricity Companies state that we should get ready for more frequent power cuts.

And the owner of the Care Home I work in has, in the interest of making a bigger profit decided that he will only pay enhanced bank holiday pay for Christmas day and New Years Day (both at double time) and for Boxing Day he has paid time and a half.......There has been no rise in the basic rate for the past 3 years.
Almost Dickensian...IMHO...

Does anyone else feel or have similar experiences?
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:18 am

.... only now we don't have all that lovely lolly being squeezed out of an Empire, there's only poor Brits to persecute.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:16 pm

The Tories made it as plain as the nose on your face that they would take us back to Charles Dickens times, the reason is then the Tories had total power over us plebs there was no twitter or facebook then and most of us plebs did not have enough BACKBONE to stand up to the landed SCUMBAGS. :yeahthat:
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Ivan on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:44 pm

'Absolute poverty' of Victorian age has returned to the UK, says Labour MP

Michael Meacher has accused Osborne of shrinking the state for ideological reasons, causing the "cruel and unnecessary imposition of poverty". He slammed the "Dickensian" bedroom tax and Atos, the firm tasked with carrying out work capability assessments.

Mr Meacher said:

"I think it is clear something terrible is happening across the face of Britain - we are seeing the return of absolute levels of poverty which have not existed in this country since the Victorian age more than a century ago. Absolute poverty, of course, is when people haven't the money even to pay for their most basic needs and the evidence for that is all around us. There are now at least 345 food banks and according to the Trussell Trust, emergency food aid for at least three days was given to 350,000 households in this last year. The Red Cross is setting up centres to help the destitute, just as they do in developing countries.

Is all this brutality towards the poor really necessary? Is there any justification in intensifying the misery as the chancellor clearly intends, both by winding up the social fund and more particularly and most of all by imposing another £25 billion of cuts in the next parliament - half of it on working age benefits? After £80 billion of public spending cuts, after £23 billion cuts in this parliament so far, the deficit has only been reduced at a glacial pace, How can it be justified to carry on imposing such abject and unnecessary destitution on such a huge scale, when the benefits in terms of deficit reduction are so small as to be almost derisory?"


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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:55 pm

It's not obvious why anyone should be surprised at Britain's return to Victorian Values since that was a period of enormous wealth alongside grinding poverty.

The illusion of equality fostered at the end of WW2 has been eroded by the simple fact that wealthy people can persuade (any) government to maintain a legal structure that favours Ownership at the expense of fair shares.

Like the United States, we have private personal wealth amidst public squalor - much the same as in Rome a couple of thousand years ago.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:33 am

Great post OW and you have hit the nail on the head, this shower of VILE NASTY BLUE VERMIN who are poor excuse for what is known as the human beings, in days long gone when Charles Dickens was writing his book Oliver Twist that is where this gov't want to take us back to, so that the rich and wealthy can have that same amount of power & control over us mere mortals which make me wonder WHEN is the majority of the UK public going to stand up to them and say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:21 am

I suspect the sad reality is that we are already operating within the parameters of Victorian Britain.

This fact is masked to some extent by the fact that even the poorest people tend to have some level of access to technology (mobile phones, internet access, flat screen TV), and, thanks to cheap clothing due to slave conditions in clothing factories abroad, and cheap food, thanks to lack of regulation of food production, along with inhumane factory farming methods, the differences between rich and poor are less glaringly obvious to the naked eye.

Rich and poor eat for example burgers - if you're rich, you will get your burger at a restaurant where it will be made of the very best steak and will be served on an artisan baked bread roll, alongside a salad of vine tomatoes and micro greens. It will probably cost you £50 or more and will provide a luxurious and nourishing meal - if you're poor, your burger will come from Tesco's, may contain horsemeat, will certainly contain a lot of fat and gristle, will be served on a bun of over processed, nutrient-free white pap. You may well eschew the salad because it's expensive, in favour of a dollop of 'tomato' ketchup which is mostly sugar and chemicals. Your burger is likely to cost 50p or less, and to give you a very little low quality nutrition. However, the fact that you and the rich person are both eating a meal that is called by the same name, shares working-class credentials and is seen to some extent as a luxury product, will for most people effectively mask the glaring differences between the two meals, and the obvious consequences for the well being of the two consumers.

I believe we now have again the basic social structure of Victorian Britain - you don't see the poor down the gin palace any more, or barefoot children in ragged clothes to any extent. We don't have at least in East Anglia beggars in the street to any extent - and this enables the 'haves' to ignore the enormous gap between them and those who are only one day away from absolute destitution, and even from those who have reached absolute destitution.

The poor may be always with us, but these days it is far too easy not to see them.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:21 pm

QUOTE: "....you don't see the poor down the gin palace any more, or barefoot children in ragged clothes to any extent."

Which may only be due to the fact that our nurturing government are but halfway-through their desire to dismantle the Welfare State.  God Help the less able if the Tories get re-elected in 2015.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:32 pm

I agree OW if England is daft enough to believe the Tories at the general election in 2015 they will get a real nasty surprise of the WORKHOUSE back in action before the end of 2015.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:23 pm

I don't think we will get the workhouse - thanks to housing benefit (which they won't stop imo) the poor can starve discreetly and invisibly in the (dis)comfort of their own homes.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:44 am

Boatlady IMHO I think you have got this one very wrong, Osborne is saying he will cut another £25bn from ?? £12bn from Welfare so where is the other £13bn coming from ?  IMHO the entire £25bn will come out of Welfare because Osborne and the Tory party do not give two F**KS what happens to the normal man/women in the UK.   All they care about is their own kind ( the ones that can pour money into Tory funds) that way there will be no Labour party nobody to stick up for the working man/women the way it used to be in Charles Dickens time when the Labour party did not exist leaving the Tory party in power all of the time, no election and definitely no DEMOCRACY  deadhorse
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:08 pm

Please, Red, I hate to hear social security benefits , which are after all a right in a civilised society, termed as 'welfare'. I do think the language we use is important, and if for no other reason I would not call social security benefits welfare because that's how the government and the right wing press choose to term them in order to demonise claimants.

I think, although a huge slice is being shaved off the benefits bill, the provision of housing benefit remains the responsibility of local authorities, who will be very reluctant to impose cuts that result in an increase of street homelessness. People will perhaps be driven to accept less and less decent accommodation, and common lodging houses and hostel accomodation may increase in number - but I think we will not see a significant increase of people living, and dying , in our streets - they will quietly starve and freeze in whatever small private space is allowed them.

In my small town, I am aware every day of people, many of them, reduced to penury and destitution by the changes to and the inefficiency of the benefits system - they come to get a voucher for the food bank, then they go home. Being in public space costs money, whereas at home  at least you can go to sleep.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:24 pm

There are no published statistics for the number of families in Britain that go to bed at 7.30 p.m. in Winter to keep warm, but I'd bet that it's more than just a few.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:17 pm

Judging by the condensation you can see on windows, lots of my neighbours are keeping the heating off this winter
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:25 pm

Were you paying attention in Physics, boatlady, or making paper darts? Condensation of water vapour in the home occurs on every cold surface when the outside temperature is lower than the interior. Water vapour is produced by cooking, showering and breathing, so if you just tell your neighbours to stop doing those things you can watch their little faces light up in gratitude.

Or not, as the case may be.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:23 pm

lol! 
But it is worse when the interior isn't heated at all - there's very rarely any condensation in my (warm, well maintained) house

Actually, as you're asking - no, I didn't pay a lot of attention in Physics - mostly checking my hair
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:18 am

boatlady wrote:Please, Red, I hate to hear social security benefits , which are after all a right in a civilised society, termed as 'welfare'. I do think the language we use is important, and if for no other reason I would not call social security benefits welfare because that's how the government and the right wing press choose to term them in order to demonise claimants.

I think, although a huge slice is being shaved off the benefits bill, the provision of housing benefit remains the responsibility of local authorities, who will be very reluctant to impose cuts that result in an increase of street homelessness. People will perhaps be driven to accept less and less decent accommodation, and common lodging houses and hostel accomodation may increase in number - but I think we will not see a significant increase of people living, and dying , in our streets - they will quietly starve and freeze in whatever small private space is allowed them.

In my small town, I am aware every day of people, many of them, reduced to penury and destitution by the changes to and the inefficiency of the benefits system - they come to get a voucher for the food bank, then they go home. Being in public space costs money, whereas at home  at least you can go to sleep.
 Sad
 
Boatlady I hate the fact that people cannot get work with decent wages so they can pay their gas electric bills and put food on the table for their family, rather than any way I describe what people of the UK who have worked for and paid into the system that is a safety net when things go wrong in their lives.  If you think the Tories will have any sympathy for those are struggling you are very much mistaken, within the last few months Diddy Giddy has came out and said those under 25 WILL NOT RECEIVE housing benefit also that he will cut another £25bn from OUR public services with £12bn from benefits but has not mentioned where the other £13bn wll come from, knowing the nature of the beast I would say the lot will come off benefits so where will that leave the people that need housing benefit boatlady, I think you give the Tories too much praise in what they will do and will not do for the people that are struggling in the UK. deadhorse
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:14 pm

I think, although a huge slice is being shaved off the benefits bill, the provision of housing benefit remains the responsibility of local authorities, who will be very reluctant to impose cuts that result in an increase of street homelessness. People will perhaps be driven to accept less and less decent accommodation, and common lodging houses and hostel accomodation may increase in number - but I think we will not see a significant increase of people living, and dying , in our streets - they will quietly starve and freeze in whatever small private space is allowed them.


Red, I'm not sure which bit of the above convinces you of my sympathy for the Tories.
The point I was trying (and it seems failing) to make is that a preponderance of street homeless and desperate people with nowhere to go is going to be seen as dangerous, and will therefore not be part of the picture.
Local authorities, in my view, are going to try and manage this, sometimes through the use of custodial sentences in HMP, but more often by supporting the opening of hostels for the homeless (we have four in our town of 40000 souls, one of which is specifically for the under 25's). Under 25's who are at risk of actual homelessness will still I believe be able to get some minimal support from benefit income, which will finance extremely basic accommodation - under 25's who still have a family home will have to stay there unless and until they can prove indisputably that this is not an option.

I don't think we are going to see workhouses, in the Victorian sense, because I think this would be a public relations nightmare for the government - but I think we will see a sharp increase in deaths due to factors connected with malnutrition, unhealthy living environments and inadequate health care, and I suspect this is part of the government's plan. These deaths will take place in private, and will not attract the negative publicity that deaths in a large institution like a workhouse or a concentration camp would - they will still serve to dispose of the surplus population (by which I mean those people the industrial machine no longer requires).

I am just as horrified as you about the way things are going - please don't get cross with me because I express my views in a different way.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by buckspygmy on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:33 pm

boatlady wrote:[
I don't think we are going to see workhouses, in the Victorian sense, because I think this would be a public relations nightmare for the government - .

19000, (nineteen thousand) people being sent to Camborne food bank last October already is a public relations nightmare for the government.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:54 pm

True, but I think the difference is that they go one by one, and are thus judged one by one.

If you have a situation where, say a journalist could go into a large building full of people who are all starving and in rags, while supposedly being there to be 'cared for' - that's a serious nightmare. I remember all the photos from the Romanian orphanages - what a groundswell of public outrage!!!

Individuals can be judged individually - they may be 'feckless', they may not have spent their money 'wisely' - if you've got a hundred individuals all in the same situation, then it's harder to be judgemental - that's why I don't think we'll see anything as noticeable as a workhouse under this government - it would make them look even worse.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:25 pm

All such discussions revolve around the visible inequality between Have-nots and the Have Yachts.  It's not logical to denigrate people who have worked hard and done well for themselves, but the national tax arrangements should include a substantial fair-play mechanism that will give the less-advantaged a reasonable standard of living.

An obvious start could be on a revision of IHT, which used to be called "Death Duties" that cut a swathe through the landed gentry following WW2, and ensured that the great unwashed obtained access to stately 'omes for the first time ever.  

Taxing the dead is fruitful and painless.  Only those expecting an inheritance which they may or may not "deserve" will feel deprived.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:00 pm

Works for me - once I turn up my toes, anyone who wants can have my little all.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:32 pm

Boatlady I think if you check the figures for homelessness you will see they have risen sharply since 2010, also those in bed & breakfast have risen since the VILE & NASTY bedroom tax came into effect in April 2013 and this includes families with kids imagine a kid in bed & breakfast over the xmas period SHAMEFUL for any colour of gov't.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:38 pm

boatlady wrote:True, but I think the difference is that they go one by one, and are thus judged one by one.

If you have a situation where, say a journalist could go into a large building full of people who are all starving and in rags, while supposedly being there to be 'cared for' - that's a serious nightmare. I remember all the photos from the Romanian orphanages - what a groundswell of public outrage!!!

Individuals can be judged individually - they may be 'feckless', they may not have spent their money 'wisely' - if you've got a hundred individuals all in the same situation, then it's harder to be judgemental - that's why I don't think we'll see anything as noticeable as a workhouse under this government - it would make them look even worse.

Sorry if you think the Tories would be bothered about what anybody said about them in regard to WORKHOUSES, it would be like "WATER OFF A DUCKS BACK"  They do not give two hoots for anybody else but their own and their wealthy donors, they would turn on their own Tory MPs if it suited them or put a few quid in their wallet. headbang
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by boatlady on Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:45 pm

I am aware of the homelessness statistics - that's not the same as street homelessness - homelessness includes people who are 'sofa surfing' staying in homeless hostels and night shelters, staying in B@B's - street homeless means having no roof over your head - a fairly common fate I believe in Victorian Britain, but one that I believe we will not see to any extent in our lifetimes.

Clearly, I've upset you in some way - let's just agree to differ. I will continue to do what I am doing to moderate the effects of this government's atrocities for the people I can reach - you carry on doing whatever it is you are doing - as I said
I am just as horrified as you about the way things are going - please don't get cross with me because I express my views in a different way.


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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:34 am

Boatlady  I am not cross with you I just think you are giving the Tories too much credit that they do not deserve, I will put a letter on word for word that is in todays Daily Mirror letters page and the rest of the letters are in the same vein, one in the texts sent to the Daily Mirror is asking is there a  TUC and why it is not calling a General Strike to dispose of this EVIL gov't NOW not in 2015.   THIS IS THE LETTER I MENTIONED
 
The drastic fall in the jobless total is partly due to some unemployed people being discounted because they've had their Jobseekers Allowance stopped as a result of the new sanctions.   That along with the deliberate delaying of benefits payments, is another devious and cynical ploy by a Tory-led gov't that's determined to lie and con its way to a second term.   They do not care about the hardship faced by the long term unemployed.  Power is everything to them so lets deny them that.  (John Wilson Carnforth Lancs.)
 
I know what is in this letter may sound cruel & nasty to you but I was listening to Radio 5 QT extra time and a male came on and told his story of being sanctioned because he did what Job Centre Plus had told him to do attend College for English & Maths the person has GCSEs in both Maths & English from his time at school, and had his benefits stopped because he did what he was told to do.
 
All I am saying boatlady what is happening in your part of the UK is not the story right across the UK, and the Tories are Nasty enough to bring back the Workhouses if England gives them another term in 2015 God help us if that does happen. cheers
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:26 pm

Some people may be tackling the problem of income disparity from the wrong angle.

Consumers withdrawing their custom from greedy Companies will in many circumstances be much more effective than workers' withdrawing their labour by going on strike.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by biglin on Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:47 pm

History is one of my passions and it always saddens me when people wilfully overlay it with propaganda.

Left and right are equally guilty of this deliberate mystification.

The simple answer is that the proposed welfare changes are NOTHING like the Poor Laws under the Victorians and it's simply dishonest to pretend that they are.

It's one thing opposing the changes and saying they're unfair, hitting the poor hardest and so on.

That's pretty broadly true.

But to overegg the pudding by comparing it with Victorian times is simply dishonest!

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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:38 pm

biglin I do not think anyone on this forum is over egging the pudding, we all see what is going on in our own areas and then report on this forum, if the Tories are allowed to get on with it we all would be on the streets or in Workhouse type places at the moment it is in Bed & Breakfasts with there kids and that is down to the cruelest tax of all Bedroom Tax and is just as NASTY as Thatchers Poll Tax.

What I can not understand is when the Poll Tax was brought in people got so angry they stood up to the Thatcher gov't, who eventually dropped it due too pressure from the people but the people of the UK have not stood up to this Incompetent gov't regarding the Bedroom tax YET pokenest 
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:55 pm

The simple answer is that the proposed welfare changes are NOTHING like the Poor Laws under the Victorians and it's simply dishonest to pretend that they are.

"Thin end of the wedge" may apply.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by bobby on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:51 pm

Hello Red, I think the problem is that the Poll Tax affected everyone whereas the Bedroom Tax affects only a minority. We still have a Thatcherite dog eat dog mentality in Britain, and the Tory Bastards know exactly how to milk it, its divide and conquer.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Ivan on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:16 pm

biglin wrote:-
to overegg the pudding by comparing it with Victorian times is simply dishonest!
We can all sit in our ivory towers and tell ourselves that what we don’t see under our noses can’t possibly be happening. Cranleigh is a prosperous town (its inhabitants insist on calling it a village for some reason) in leafy Surrey, eight miles south east of Guildford. Most people couldn’t dream of being able to afford to buy a house there. It now has a foodbank. Horsham is one of the most prosperous towns in West Sussex, if not the whole country. It now has a foodbank. There are now over 1,000 foodbanks in the UK, feeding around 500,000 people. I’ve never heard of anything like this before in my lifetime.
 
Rickets – softening of the bones – is one of the most frequent childhood diseases in many developing countries. The disease was common in Victorian England, but largely disappeared from the Western world in the latter half of the 20th century, thanks to vitamin D being added to everyday foods such as margarine and cereal. It’s now making a comeback in this country.
 
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Here we have Oxfam's director of UK poverty, Chris Johnes, being “dishonest”:-
 
"Despite the government's rhetoric about making work pay, having a job is no longer necessarily enough to lift someone out of poverty. More working-age adults in poverty now live in working households than in workless ones. The government is justifying huge cuts to welfare support for people on low incomes by saying this will incentivise work, but there simply aren't enough decent jobs available. We need to see income being distributed more fairly if we are to make any impact on reducing levels of poverty. If we carry on down this path, the UK will return to levels of inequality not seen since Victorian times."
 
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:28 pm

It is becoming depressingly easy to empathise with cattle: Born in controlled circumstances, housed and fed adequately though not ideally, led around by the nose and eventually put to use in the exclusive service of Investors.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by biglin on Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:55 pm

Yes, that last comment is very true; the fundamental problem is that both socialists and conservatives are authoritarian and love repressing the people and are both the enemies of the people.

Each are wedded to oppression and both believe in evil philosophies.

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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by biglin on Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:58 pm

And for what it's worth I've come from a poor background and I know what it's like to wonder where your next meal is coming from.

There's all the difference in the world between helping poor people, destroying capitalism and the class system - all things I agree with - and fostering a culture of dependency, entitlement and parasitism.

If you've had to sleep out under the stars, scrabble around for food and even steal to survive - I have - you know the difference between needs and wants.

The people who want to live on the valium of benefits have no idea what it is to be poor, hungry, cold and exhausted.

They live in their featherbedded lifestyle while the real poor struggle for survival.

biglin

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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:54 pm

Oh well. There goes working-class solidarity.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by buckspygmy on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:13 pm

biglin wrote:And for what it's worth I've come from a poor background and I know what it's like to wonder where your next meal is coming from.

There's all the difference in the world between helping poor people, destroying capitalism and the class system - all things I agree with - and fostering a culture of dependency, entitlement and parasitism.

If you've had to sleep out under the stars, scrabble around for food and even steal to survive - I have - you know the difference between needs and wants.

The people who want to live on the valium of benefits have no idea what it is to be poor, hungry, cold and exhausted.

They live in their featherbedded lifestyle while the real poor struggle for survival.

Goodness gracious me someone is out of touch.
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Redflag on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:48 am

Ivan wrote:-
Rickets – softening of the bones – is one of the most frequent childhood diseases in many developing countries. The disease was common in Victorian England, but largely disappeared from the Western world in the latter half of the 20th century, thanks to vitamin D being added to everyday foods such as margarine and cereal. It’s now making a comeback in this country.

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Thank you IVAN for pointing out the rise in Rickets in the UK in the 21st century Britain, there are some on here that still have their heads in the clouds in regard to the REAL NASTINESS of the Tories and those that aid and abet them the Fib-Dems, they have walked through the yes lobby with the Tories for those bills that have forced working people to go cap in hand to the food banks and now have decided to speak out about the Tory Ideology (Vince Cable) what a two faced rat-bag. cheers
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:31 pm

buckspygmy wrote:
biglin wrote:And for what it's worth I've come from a poor background and I know what it's like to wonder where your next meal is coming from.

There's all the difference in the world between helping poor people, destroying capitalism and the class system - all things I agree with - and fostering a culture of dependency, entitlement and parasitism.

If you've had to sleep out under the stars, scrabble around for food and even steal to survive - I have - you know the difference between needs and wants.

The people who want to live on the valium of benefits have no idea what it is to be poor, hungry, cold and exhausted.

They live in their featherbedded lifestyle while the real poor struggle for survival.

Goodness gracious me someone is out of touch.

buckspygmy, With all of your suffering, I bet you are a Tory supporter ?

Ivanhoe
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Re: Victorian Britain

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:27 pm

Although we must all feel total sympathy for anyone suffering a flooded home as a result of the very unkind weather recently, it is noticeable that the maximum publicity has been generated by the (mostly Tory, Range Rover and green-wellies) minority of people residing in the rural fastness of the Somerset Levels. Resulting in a knee-jerk flurry of activity from Government personalities, not apparently duplicated in places such as Aberystwyth.
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Re: Victorian Britain

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