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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Just to prove what a liar I am, always “making things up as I go along”, I’ll add three more sources to the discussion, but no doubt that won’t convince the pig-headed amongst us:-
 
The Beveridge Report proposed an allowance of eight shillings per week for all children (apart from for a family's first child if one parent was working), which graduated according to age. It was to be non-contributory and funded by general taxation. After some debate, the Family Allowances Bill was enacted in June 1945. The act provided for a flat rate payment funded directly from taxation. The recommended nine shillings a week was reduced to five shillings, and family allowance became a subsidy, rather than a subsistence payment as Beveridge had envisaged.”
 
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Known as the Family Allowance, the 5 shillings a week payment was given to parents only for their second AND subsequent children, thus helping shore up the depleted population by encouraging more births. It continued through the post-war boom but was restructured when the economy turned down again, being reinvented as Child Benefit in the second half of the 1970s. The new payments were tax free and first-time mothers also became eligible.”
 
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“In the UK, child benefit is administered by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The system was first implemented in August 1946 as ‘family allowances’ under the Family Allowances Act 1945, at a rate of 5s (= £0.25) per week per child in a family, except for the eldest. This was raised from September 1952, by the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1952, to 8s (= £0.40), and from October 1956, by the Family Allowances Act and National Insurance Act 1956, to 8s for the second child with 10s (= £0.50) for the third and subsequent children.

It was modified in 1977, with the payments being termed ‘child benefit’ and given for the eldest child as well as the younger ones; by 1979 it was worth £4 per child per week. In 1991, the system was further altered, with a higher payment now given for the first child than for their younger siblings.”

 
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by sickchip on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:54 pm

I disagree, albeit slightly, Redflag.

My point is the minimum wage ought to be increased to approx £10ph. This should be paid for by decreasing other person's salaries......thus narrowing the differential.

There is a problem with zero hour contracts, and other factors as you rightly point out.....and that is why the unions need to find strength and represent people again.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:00 pm

Along with the crap accommodation in overpriced privately rented housing.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:11 pm

sickchip wrote:I disagree, albeit slightly, Redflag.

My point is the minimum wage ought to be increased to approx £10ph. This should be paid for by decreasing other person's salaries......thus narrowing the differential.

There is a problem with zero hour contracts, and other factors as you rightly point out.....and that is why the unions need to find strength and represent people again.
 
I agree sickchip, the Unions need to pull up their socks and start telling this gov't their honest hard working members are suffering through their cuts, not the people that caused the mess the EFFING BANKERS.  I think if all Unions right across the UK banded together and had a word in Cameron,s shell like, it could prove very productive.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:33 pm

Phil Hornby wrote   " In these straitened times, please use both sides of the paper, for economy."

I tool your advice Phil, but no matter how I try, I can not manage on less than 3 sheets, 1 up, 1 down and 1 to polish.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:43 pm

I like Ed Miliband. I think he’s a decent, honest and compassionate man, in stark contrast to the corrupt serial liar and snake oil salesman who currently resides at 10 Downing Street.
 
I don’t often criticise the Labour Party in public. I’ve always thought that to do so just helps the party’s enemies, especially the Tories, who, as we’ve seen on this forum, will latch on to the most trivial non-story (such as ‘Ed Miliband telephoned Ken Livingstone’) and try to make something sinister out of it.
 
My criticism is that Labour should be making more effort to lead public opinion rather than follow it. I’ve always believed that the only way to deal with ‘uncomfortable’ or unpopular policies is to face up to them, present your point of view and persuade the voters that you are right. I’ve identified six topics where I think Labour should be doing that.
 
1. Unions  
 
Sunny Hundal argues that it was a sign of strength that Labour is willing to stand up to its biggest donor and tell it to stop interfering so blatantly; the Tories don’t have the guts to stand up to the City or big business. The controversy about what did or didn’t happen in Falkirk was hyped up by people who have an agenda against the unions.
 
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Since Thatcher came to power and rewrote the history of the 1970s, it’s been Tory policy to treat it as axiomatic that unions are ‘bad’. That’s because Tories know that it’s more difficult for them to continue redistributing wealth from the poor to the rich if the unions are in their way. It’s because of trade unions that workers have the right to paid holidays, maternity leave, health and safety at work and some degree of employment protection, although all of these things will be under threat if the likes of Tory donor Adam Beecroft get their way or if we leave the European Union. It’s no coincidence that this country was at its most equal in the 1960s and 1970s, and as journalist Mark Seddon has commented: "The increased pauperisation and privatisation of Britain would not be happening if unions were stronger”.
 
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6.5 million people in the UK are currently members of a trade union. Union membership increased by 59,000 during 2012. Private sector membership of trade unions is up for the second year in a row. A majority of the public remain supportive of the links between Labour and trade unions. 69% of Britons agreed with the statement “it is important that Labour retains its strong links with the trade unions because they represent many hard working people in Britain”.  The poll revealed that 90% of Labour voters said it was important that the Labour Party retained its strong links with unions. Labour was formed by trade unions and should make a positive case for why they are a ‘good’ feature in society for putting the brake on capitalist greed and ever-growing inequality.
 
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2. Welfare
 
The Tory campaign to set the working poor against the unemployed poor is utterly despicable, but so typical of a party that can only function by divide and rule and by creating imaginary demons – communists, then unions (miners in particular, Thatcher’s ‘enemy within’), then benefit claimants. Iain Duncan Smith has a track record of inventing statistics and ignoring inconvenient evidence which shows, for example, that most people on housing benefit are working. The best ways to reduce the benefits bill are to create jobs and to bring back rent controls.
 
Some Tory posters on the internet think they can pass the buck for Duncan Smith’s brutality, on the basis that it was Labour who first gave a contract to ATOS. They conveniently overlook the fact that it was Duncan Smith, not Labour, who produced the cynical test which ATOS now uses, making it close to impossible for anyone with a pulse to be eligible for disability benefit.
 
3. Immigration
 
In their desperate grub for votes from bigots and racist lowlife, the Tories have sunk into the gutter and identified another imaginary demon – immigrants. They’ve even adopted the old National Front slogan of ‘go home’, plastering it on the side of a van and sending it into areas of high immigrant population. The claim is that it’s intended to flush out illegal immigrants, but not even the most deluded Tory could possibly believe that a single person who doesn’t have the right to be here is going to up sticks and leave because it sees the van. What this disgusting antic will do is encourage the EDL and their ilk and make them think their actions have been legitimised by the government.
 
The Tories peddle the lie that there was “uncontrolled immigration” under Labour, when there has never been any such thing. There have always been border checks, apart from when John Major stopped exit controls and Theresa May briefly stopped all controls in the summer of 2011 and then passed the buck to a civil servant. Labour’s only mistake was when free movement for workers within the EU was introduced in 2004, it didn’t take steps to prevent too many immigrants settling in the same place at once, putting a great strain on schools, hospitals and housing.
 
Immigration is good for this country and that fact should be shouted from the roof tops. The NHS would collapse without immigrants, our ageing population could not be supported without immigrants (the birth rate in the UK was only 1.6 per woman in 2001), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy, and the Office for Budget Responsibility is saying that we still need 6 million more.
 
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4. The European Union
 
Ed Miliband has shown leadership here. He is right to oppose a referendum on our EU membership in four years’ time, because of the uncertainty which the proposal creates for the business world. He is also right to be opposed to a referendum in principle, because it is an aberration of parliamentary responsibility. It’s true purpose is to shore up Cameron’s position in the Tory Party and stop the hemorrhaging of Tory support to UKIP.
 
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But Labour shouldn’t just stop there. It should be positive, make the case for why we should remain in the EU and then defend that position vigorously against the ‘Little Englanders’ who lack any vision other than wanting to turn the clock back to the 1950s and a world which no longer exists.
 
5. The Tories’ record in office
 
It’s always awful and the voters need to be reminded of that over and over again. What the Tories never tell you is that they needed an IMF loan in 1956, they left behind a balance of payments deficit in 1964, and they gave us double-digit inflation in 1974. They don’t tell you that Thatcher left office in 1990 with inflation higher than when she came in, or that the Tories left office in 1997 with unemployment higher than when they came to power on the strength of those ‘Labour isn’t working’ posters in 1979. (They also don’t remind you of ‘Black Wednesday’ in 1992.) In 1997, Labour inherited a large deficit and high public sector debt (equivalent to 43.76% of GDP), yet government spending was at a historic low – 14th out of 15 in the EU.
 
6. Labour’s record in office
 
Ed Miliband should defend it vigorously. The Tories peddle the lie that every Labour government leaves behind a financial mess. It wasn’t true in 1951, not true in 1970, not true in 1979, and only true in 2010 because Brown had no alternative but to bail out the bankers when global capitalism proved itself to be a failure.
 
The longest uninterrupted period of growth in the UK economy in the last 200 years occurred when Gordon Brown was Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Tories supported Labour’s spending plans until the global credit crunch occurred, and the Tories supported the bailout of their banking cronies. Polly Toynbee writes:
 
Labour's spending worked. Why don't they defend it? Blair and Brown improved schools and hospitals and cut poverty – but never embedded this agenda in the national psyche. But the Tory myth has taken hold: that Labour squandered vast sums on wasteful programmes that didn't work. Benefits were ‘thrown at’ the idle instead of changing lives. All this is refuted by a wealth of statistics from Professors John Hills and Ruth Lupton and others in their reports on health, education and inequality. Reading this monumental research – ‘Labour's Social Policy Record: Policy, Spending and Outcomes 1997-2010’ – you can only wonder at how badly Labour has defended its record.”
 
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:16 pm

In France, and other Countries, the public reaction to any situation such as Britain has encountered under the Coalition, would have been Civil Commotion.

But that's not our way, so everyone must cross their fingers and hope for Ed Miliband to become our Robespierre.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:54 am

I think France is one of those countries that if the people are not happy with their gov't they tend to go on strike and block their ports so nothing moves, their Unions seem be more active and willing to do what is best for their members, unlike the Unions in the UK.
 
If Ed Miliband and the Labour party extracted its digit it would be able to put Cameron and the Tory party back in its Private Box for good.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:43 am

Ivan, thanks for the very detailed and thoughtful analysis - I'm sort of hoping you've sent a copy to Labour headquarters, because it seems to me that following some if not all of those ideas would certainly give Labour a bit more bounce and may help to defuse some of the horrible insidious Tory propaganda - give people a realistic alternative
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:32 am

I have been saying for quite some time that Ed Miliband needs to be seen in a fight for Governance. I honestly believe him to be a decent and honest man, perhaps that is why he fails in the street fighting arena, but being a nice, decent man will not get Labour elected, he needs as do all Labour MP’s and supporters to get down and dirty when dealing with an inherently dishonest and nasty Government as we now have.
I notice that Labours polling lead has reduce of late. I think the public now need to see just how dirty Herr Cameron and his rumba of rattlesnakes really are, they need to have the truth pushed in their faces in exactly the same way the Tories are now peddling their lies about Labour and everything else. How can the electorate expect to disbelieve Herr Cameron when he is never taken to task and challenged. If the public are told something by the Government, and the opposition fail in giving a robust condemnation in response, the public may and do IMHO end up believing the dishonest Tory speak.
Regarding all the Union nonsense, why does Ed Miliband constantly allow Cameron to pick the battlefield, we have seen and read the many posts from Steve Walker, Ivan et,al that there is loads of stuff Herr Cameron can be attacked on and until Labour decide to go to war with the Tory slag’s and fight on a battlefield of their choosing, the lead will diminish until Labour are fighting for their very existence.
We need that nice Ed Miliband as our Prime Minister, but unless he is prepared and prepared now to get his hands dirty and fight the Tories on matters that are fact and in a way the party faithful and the floating voters can get behind, I am now believing Labour can lose the next General Election. Herr Cameron was much better as opposition than Ed Miliband, but Ed I’m certain will make a much better Prime minister.
I sent an e mail to Ed Miliband and the reply I Received from Angela Eagle was basically to wait for the forthcoming manifesto. This is the problem, we can not afford to wait any longer we are loosing ground now and can not afford to lose any more. If every one who cares writes to Ed Miliband, perhaps he will get the message sooner rather than later.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:39 am

Hello boatlady, I think a part of the problem could be that the perception many have of the Tory party is that they are nasty, and Ed Miliband doesn't want to behave in the same way as them, unfortunately many ordinary working people don't have the same sensitivities.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:17 pm

Reality check.

The terms of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 mandate that the election will be held on 7 May 2015 (except in the event of a collapse of government or a two-thirds majority of MPs voting for an early election).

If a week is a long time in politics (Harold Wilson) then how much longer must two years be?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:23 pm

bobby wrote:I have been saying for quite some time that Ed Miliband needs to be seen in a fight for Governance. I honestly believe him to be a decent and honest man, perhaps that is why he fails in the street fighting arena, but being a nice, decent man will not get Labour elected, he needs as do all Labour MP’s and supporters to get down and dirty when dealing with an inherently  dishonest and nasty Government as we now have.
I notice that Labours polling lead has reduce of late. I think the public now need to see just how dirty Herr Cameron and his rumba of rattlesnakes really are, they need to have the truth pushed in their faces in exactly the same way the Tories are now peddling their lies about Labour and everything else. How can the electorate expect to disbelieve Herr Cameron when he is never taken to task and challenged. If the public are told something by the Government, and the opposition fail in giving a robust condemnation in response, the public may and do IMHO end up believing the dishonest Tory speak.
Regarding all the Union nonsense, why does Ed Miliband constantly allow Cameron to pick the battlefield, we have seen and read the many posts from Steve Walker, Ivan et,al  that there is loads of stuff Herr Cameron can be attacked on and until Labour decide to go to war with the Tory slag’s and fight on a battlefield of their choosing, the lead will diminish until Labour are fighting for their very existence.
We need that nice Ed Miliband as our Prime Minister, but unless he is prepared and prepared now to get his hands dirty and fight the Tories on matters that are fact and in a way the party faithful and the floating voters can get behind, I am now believing Labour can lose the next General Election. Herr Cameron was much better as opposition than Ed Miliband, but Ed I’m certain will make a much better Prime minister.
I sent an e mail to Ed Miliband and the reply I Received from Angela Eagle was basically to wait for the forthcoming manifesto. This is the problem, we can not afford to wait any longer we are loosing ground now and can not afford to lose any more. If every one who cares  writes to Ed Miliband, perhaps he will get the message sooner rather than later.
 
Thank you so much Bobby for pointing out what I have been seeing for months, and when Parliament comes back from recess I will write or email Mr Miliband if you could give me the email address you have used as I have sent a few emails but never got a reply.  Now going back to the beginning 2010 when everything was Labours fault and Ed and the MPs allowed that to continue to the point that people believed it that is what the "Drip Drip Effect" does to people and what Bobby has pointed out.
 
But I do agree that Cameron is going to get dirtier and more underhand to get him and his LEECHES back inot power in 2015, I would advise Mr Miliband and Labour MPs to extract their digits or they will end up visiting their local Job Centre Plus to sign on in May 2015, there is is only so much Labour core voters and members will take until they go elsewhere such as the People's Party or stand themselves as Independents anything to stop the Conservatives from getting another five years in gov't, that would be the DEATH of the UK.
 
As for the debacle of Labour being funded by the Unions, I am quite sure that Cameron and his Leeches would enjoy a history lesson of the ties between the Unions and the Labour party, as for who funds who Ed Miliband has PLENTY of ammo to throw back at the Conservatives as to who funds their party, City bankers got us into the mess we find ourselves in, but the bankers are not paying the price they still are getting their huge salaries and even bigger bonuses.  It's the low paid, sick, disabled and Unemployed that are paying that price plus the Unemployed are getting called scroungers and skivers when the unemployment stands at 2.5 million and I know that is not the true figure of the unemployed, the Cons have fiddled these figures by shoving people into Workfare or any work for nothing scheme.  
 
What is coming out now about the Tories and Lynton Crosby Lobbyist and Spin doctor in No10 will give the Labour party and Ed enough ammo, this along with the others that fund the Tory party tax avoiders some of their biggest donors keep their money in off shore accounts and all the gov't contracts they have handed out to their friends and donors.
 
We know you're a decent and a good man Ed, but now you have got to get those gloves off and come out fighting as dirty and underhand as Cameron and his LEECHES.cheers
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:15 pm

Hello Red. Use this link:-  

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I hope it helps.  Bob
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:33 pm

ow wrote:-
If a week is a long time in politics (Harold Wilson) then how much longer must two years be?
 
My wory ow is that we have had over 3 years of the Tory party and their tame media dogs (including the BBC) drip feeding the electorate anti Labour and pro Tory propaganda. When was the last time you watched an anti Government protest in its entirety, all we get is the occasional snippet and Bullingdon Dave Dimbleby with his regular Tory bias in either his choice of guest or his rarely allowing a Labour politician or supporter to have their full say.We now have less than two years to undo the 3 years +of Tory Brainwashing, and it aint happening yet, and needs to before it becomes much too late.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:07 pm

bobby wrote:
ow wrote:-
If a week is a long time in politics (Harold Wilson) then how much longer must two years be?
 
My wory ow is that we have had over 3 years of the Tory party and their tame media dogs (including the BBC) drip feeding the electorate anti Labour and pro Tory propaganda. When was the last time you watched an anti Government protest in its entirety, all we get is the occasional snippet and Bullingdon Dave Dimbleby with his regular Tory bias in either his choice of guest or his rarely allowing a Labour politician or supporter to have their full say.We now have less than two years to undo the 3 years +of Tory Brainwashing, and it aint happening yet, and needs to before it becomes much too late.

The Tories along with the aiders and abetters Lib-Dems have chanted the same old SHYTE about it being the Labour parties fault we have so much debt, and of course they would not tell the people of the UK the truth it was the TORY DONORS the CITY BANKERS that caused the MAJORITY of the debt and the Lib-Dems are just as guilty they would do anything for there Lords & Masters and some will more than likely get Tory safe seats by taking a Tory party membership card.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:18 pm

bobby wrote:Hello Red. Use this link:-  

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I hope it helps.  Bob
 
 
Thank you Bobby I have taken the address and will write Ed as what I have to say will not fit on a email, and hope they have the courage to answer my letter, at one point I will explain through PM to you at the moment the most important thing is to get Ed and the Labour to listen to their core voters & Members
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:27 pm

bobby wrote:
ow wrote:-
If a week is a long time in politics (Harold Wilson) then how much longer must two years be?
 
My wory ow is that we have had over 3 years of the Tory party and their.... drip feeding the electorate anti Labour and pro Tory propaganda....We now have less than two years to undo the 3 years +of Tory Brainwashing ....

Sometimes we can't see the wood for the trees. The only reason the Tories are still able to loudly beat their drum is the coalition support from Lib-Dems.

Remove that prop and the whole thing collapses into a short-term Election campaign.

Labour must attack the Lib-Dems on every front.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:02 am

I agree that its the Lib-Dem prop that is keeping the coalition together OW, but the question is will the Lib-Dems grow a backbone to quit the coalition ? after all they went against their own party policy to accommodate the Tory party or maybe it's just for the few crumbs of power that Cameron has thrown their way.
 
I think it is about time that Ed Miliband and the Labour party took off the boxing gloves and came out "Bare Knuckle Fighting" the Lib-Dems and the Tories, the L/Ds are quite happy to come out with the Tory Mantra It's All Labours Fault, so you're spot on, the Lib-Dems need to be attacked on every front so that the general public see them for what they are, the Tories Bitches.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:01 pm

sickchip. I guess this is an article which might meet with your approval:-
 
I know it’s the summer holidays, Ed, but what is Labour’s message?
 
by Owen Jones
 
Andy Burnham has made a commendable job of pummelling the Tories over the NHS, and they hate him for it. But he comes across as an isolated figure. The Shadow Cabinet appears to have made a vow of collective silence. It is the summer recess – the ideal time for Labour to shift the political agenda.

One of the great failures of Labour has been not rebutting the myth that overspending left us in this mess, the great lie of our time. The Tories backed our spending plans pound for pound until the end of 2008, they should say. The huge deficit we now have was caused by a collapse in tax revenues after a financial disaster, and social security spending going up because people lost their jobs.

Most social security spending goes on elderly people who pay in all their lives, Labour should say. Most working-age benefits go to people in work. The vast majority of unemployed people are desperately looking for work. Tax credits are subsidising low pay and housing benefit is subsidising landlords, so we’ll introduce a living wage and let councils build housing – creating jobs, too – which will bring down social security spending.

We are proud to be bankrolled by hundreds of thousands of supermarket shelf stackers, lollipop ladies and nurses, rather than hedge fund managers and legal loan sharks, should be Labour’s incessant message. It is not unemployed people or immigrants who are making you poorer, but the bankers who plunged Britain into disaster along with the Tories’ austerity policies. Borrow from Ronald Reagan, who famously asked in his 1980 presidential campaign: “Are you better off now than you were four years ago?”

 
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However, perhaps the call for action is being heeded:-
 
Labour to launch ‘cost of living crisis’ attack on Tories
 
by Sunny Hundal  
 
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:58 am

I voted for Andy Burnham in the leadership election and now I am glad he did not win, because he is the man that will give us back OUR NHS and tell the us the TRUTH about what the Tories are doing to our health service, and I hope that Ed Miliband ups his game and starts doing an Andy Burnham on the Tories.
 
I do agree it would be better for Labour party if Union members JOINED the Labour party that way they would be participating in which way the party goes plus be involved in the policy making as a member not the leaders of the Unions.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Adele Carlyon on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:38 pm

He could do a lot worse than listen to young Owen! That lad has an old head on young shoulders, and I find it hard to disagree with much of what he says Ivan.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:41 pm

I do think Owen Jones has mastered the knack of putting forward a strong, simple-sounding statement - heard him on Question Time and he was certainly setting out the stall.
Not sure the issues are really that simple, but the Labour Party could certainly do with a bit of that fire
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:42 am

boatlady wrote:I do think Owen Jones has mastered the knack of putting forward a strong, simple-sounding statement - heard him on Question Time and he was certainly setting out the stall.
Not sure the issues are really that simple, but the Labour Party could certainly do with a bit of that fire

Boatlady I agree with what you and Adele have said, I understand that Ed Miliband does not want to behave the way that Cameron does because Ed was brought up properly not DRAGGED up like Cameron and his Tory CRONIES.

But Ed needs to get some fire in his belly and work out how to hit back at Cameron without reducing himself to Cameron low life standards.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:12 am

Redflag said:  " But Ed needs to get some fire in his belly and work out how to hit back at Cameron without reducing himself to Cameron low life standards"

All Ed Miliband needs to do is to continue with honesty, only he needs to be seen doing so, he needs to attack this Tory led Coalition on all fronts. Some might say that Ed is keeping his powder dry, and he may well be doing that. But I for one believe he should be bringing to the publics (media allowing) attention all of the lies and false accounting, made by this rancid Government since May 10 2010. The Tories are getting away with their dishonesty for no other reason than they are being allowed to and as far as the general public see, are the only show in town.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by witchfinder on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:37 am

I prefer not to think too hard, or too long about politics at the moment because it makes me depressed; The Labour lead has gradualy been whittling away and now stands at half what it was at the begining of the year.

The first thing that Labour supporters must understand is that without middle England, without middle class votes, there cannot be a Labour victory, it therefore must follow that veering left would be a disaster, losing millions of middle class votes.
The Labour Party came back from the brink and was re-elected twice on the modern, moderate left of centre ticket, this ought to tell people something.

The Labour Party needs to be clear who they are, what they stand for, and to go out and shout as loudly as possible, but most of all they need to go on the attack, go for the vulnerable areas - the NHS - removal of employee minimum rights - public services.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:33 pm

bobby wrote:
All Ed Miliband needs to do is to continue with honesty, only he needs to be seen doing so, he needs to attack this Tory led Coalition on all fronts. Some might say that Ed is keeping his powder dry, and he may well be doing that. But I for one believe he should be bringing to the publics (media allowing) attention all of the lies and false accounting, made by this rancid Government since May 10 2010. The Tories are getting away with their dishonesty for no other reason than they are being allowed to and as far as the general public see, are the only show in town.
 
I think Bobby Ed Miliband with his MPs need to become attack dogs hitting the Tories Jugular with every lie false accounting and fiddling of figures (in many dept), the people of the UK can only take so much then they will take things into their own hands then Tories BEWARE.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:04 pm

I totally agree with you Witchy, as usual you have bought good sense and reasoning.

I personally wish Ed Miliband would take Labour somewhere near where Tony Blair stood.

The Blair Government was the only Government in my lifetime who really did stand for the Majority. He believed in helping the poor i.e. the minimum wage, and the social chapter and relatively low unemployment and assist business in order to fund our Social needs.

We are far beyond needing one party for one tribe, the working man has no right to a political party for themselves, no more than do the Tories, someone needs to be the cash earners in order to pay for the benefits earned by the less well off.

At the end of the day, what is the point of being in retail, if you live in a country where no one can afford to buy your goods, this really is a case of crass stupidity and short sightedness, what we need is for a Tesco’s employee having enough to by his weeks shopping at Sainsbury’s and vicy-vercy, a good way to circulate cash, and the more times the readies change hands, it is liable for tax, either income or VAT.

It would be interesting (if possible) if you could take a brand new £50.00 note and follow it till cremation. I wonder how much Tax would be paid out on that £50.00 note. Any Volunteers.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:49 pm

witchfinder wrote: The Labour Party needs to be clear who they are, what they stand for, and to go out and shout as loudly as possible, but most of all they need to go on the attack, go for the vulnerable areas - the NHS - removal of employee minimum rights - public services.
I think WF that is what the Labour voters are wondering about, when will the Labour party start the attack on the Tory LIES & SPIN, a lot are getting impatient with Ed and his MPs, they seem to be letting the Tories away with murder and if they do not get their finger out soon they will lose their core voters to another party because most people do not want another 5 years of a Tory gov't.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:46 pm

I wonder how much Tax would be paid out on that £50.00 note
As soon as a banknote is printed, it begins to lose value, because of inflation.  Keep it in your wallet for a year and it will only buy goods that today cost £47.  (In 1970 you could have bought a very nice house for about £3,000)

As to tax, the worth of a £50 note depends upon who you are. Poor people spend most of their income on just staying alive, so after the deduction of about 20% income tax at source (We're down to £40 already!) there is VAT to pay on a lot of purchases which chips another 20% off the "value" of that note before you can think about savings.  In terms of timespan, we work up to five months for the government before beginning to have some wages to spend as we wish.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:49 pm

Where should Cutting Edge position itself?
 
As you must have noticed, moonbeam has been giving the forum a facelift. (I’d ask her to do the same for me, but I suspect that might be beyond even her considerable talents). I hope the Tory trolls won’t be too excited by the colour scheme. It’s the same as that used by US Democrats, but moonbeam didn’t choose it for that reason, but something much more basic – she likes it! And so do other members of the forum staff.
 
I did wonder if, at the same time, the name of the forum should be changed. Some of us on the left might have preferred ‘The People’s Republic Of Cutting Edge’, but our Blairite members would possibly be at home with ‘New Cutting Edge’. In the end, we decided to leave the name as it is, but with the classy new logo which moonbeam has provided for us. Many thanks.
 
Apologies for going off topic. Embarassed
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:23 pm

A casual analysis of the postings to this forum over the past three years might suggest a name approximating to "Stuff the lot of 'em!"
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by witchfinder on Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:00 pm

When Ed was elected leader of the party back in 2010, many in the Tory ranks and their promoters in the right wing press immediately came up with the phrase "Red Ed", and suggested that the party was now firmly back in the pockets of the unions.

You have to ask yourself why did they say these things, and why were they quick to jump to these wrong conclusions ?, and of course the answer is because a Labour Party that shifts to the left would be less popular, it would lose supporters and lose votes.

I would point to recent events in Falkirk, and the robust reaction of Ed Miliband and the Labour leadership, all evidence suggests that there is not going to be any return to the unions running the Labour Party or any future Labour government - good news for those of us who want to see a decisive Labour victory in 2015 ( or before ).

What I would say, is that some radical ideas would be popular with the masses ( which should gladden the hearts of those people who are a touch on the millitant side ), for example - bring the railways back under state ownership, reverse the NHS reforms with the slogan "for public service, not for profit".

A moderate left of centre Labour Party CAN and indeed should have radical ideas.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:13 pm

witchfinder wrote:-
A moderate left of centre Labour Party CAN and indeed should have radical ideas.
Well we now have Andy Burnham's plan to integrate social care into the NHS, so that the same system which takes medical care of us also looks after us in old age. It would mean one service looking after the physical, the mental and the social, all of one person's needs.
 
Burnham says: "We are fundamentally failing in the way as a society we're caring for older people, because the system at the moment is one where we are cutting social care and letting people drift towards acute hospitals in ever greater numbers. And as the demographics change that's just increasing, and the sad thing about that is hospitals are not set up to deal with all of one person's needs. I'm talking about extending the NHS principle to social care, so everybody's in, so everybody contributes, but everybody's then covered for all their needs.”
 
How to pay for it? Burnham suggests a levy on death duties and says “the public are way ahead of politicians on this. Anyone who's seen their mum or dad or gran go through the current care system sees all of their savings get whittled away on care that just isn't worthy of the name. My argument is we will never, ever get the standards of care we aspire to for our parents, grandparents from a malnourished, minimum-wage, zero-hours social care system.”
 
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:11 pm

"Death Duties" didn't concern us much when the principal sufferers were Dukes and inheritors of a Stately 'ome under a post-war socialist government, but when the result of Maggie's Right To Buy sent property values on a continuing upward spiral the Law of Unintended Consequences brought ordinary homes into the net.

In recent times IHT has been massaged to allow modest family homes to pass without penalty on death from parents to the next generation, but all the current arguments in favour of better care for the elderly make a nonsense of inherited value.

Will a Labour government have the guts to make Death Duties once again imply the cost of dying to fall on the dead's Estate?


Last edited by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:43 pm

Where should the Labour Party position itself?

Well preferably not straddling a barbed-wire fence as some individuals seem to have elected to do this week.

Michael Winner only got as far as Death Wish 3, but a few members of the shadow cabinet seem intent on beating that score.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:06 pm

If you want to play a part in helping to develop Labour's next manifesto, this is the place to do it:-
 
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:16 pm

Regrettably, the only positive thing to be said about the Labour Party right now is that it is still there.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:18 am

And has many members who hope for a last-minute surge of whatever it takes to get this nasty government out and replace it with one that tries to represent voters from all walks of life - not just the rich ones.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by sickchip on Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:10 am

.....as I've predicted for some time - confidence in Labour is fading fast. The election is not a foregone conclusion as many here were predicting a while ago.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by blueturando on Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:04 pm

You've copy/pasted 37 lines from ‘The Guardian’ – more than twice the allowed limit – without even acknowledging the source.

Account suspended pending review by the moderation team.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by blueturando on Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:10 pm

Deleted. A further six lines copied from the same source as the previous 37 - and without any acknowledgement.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

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