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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

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Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Just to prove what a liar I am, always “making things up as I go along”, I’ll add three more sources to the discussion, but no doubt that won’t convince the pig-headed amongst us:-
 
The Beveridge Report proposed an allowance of eight shillings per week for all children (apart from for a family's first child if one parent was working), which graduated according to age. It was to be non-contributory and funded by general taxation. After some debate, the Family Allowances Bill was enacted in June 1945. The act provided for a flat rate payment funded directly from taxation. The recommended nine shillings a week was reduced to five shillings, and family allowance became a subsidy, rather than a subsistence payment as Beveridge had envisaged.”
 
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Known as the Family Allowance, the 5 shillings a week payment was given to parents only for their second AND subsequent children, thus helping shore up the depleted population by encouraging more births. It continued through the post-war boom but was restructured when the economy turned down again, being reinvented as Child Benefit in the second half of the 1970s. The new payments were tax free and first-time mothers also became eligible.”
 
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“In the UK, child benefit is administered by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). The system was first implemented in August 1946 as ‘family allowances’ under the Family Allowances Act 1945, at a rate of 5s (= £0.25) per week per child in a family, except for the eldest. This was raised from September 1952, by the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1952, to 8s (= £0.40), and from October 1956, by the Family Allowances Act and National Insurance Act 1956, to 8s for the second child with 10s (= £0.50) for the third and subsequent children.

It was modified in 1977, with the payments being termed ‘child benefit’ and given for the eldest child as well as the younger ones; by 1979 it was worth £4 per child per week. In 1991, the system was further altered, with a higher payment now given for the first child than for their younger siblings.”

 
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:49 am

Our friend tlttf was talking about Ed Miliband's interview on 'The World at One' yesterday, not Ed Balls. As usual, his account bore no resemblance to the actual exchanges, but that won't concern someone who has previously posted libel about one Labour politician (and refused to retract it), before proceeding to make up stories about both of the Miliband brothers.

The verbatim interview, which of course tlttf could have provided but which wouldn't have satisfied his deceitful agenda, is here:-
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tlttf's message urged us to vote on Thursday. I'm sure we all will. In the council elections, he'll be voting for UKIP (the party with a candidate who's been photographed making a Nazi salute) in the hope that it will get Chelsea out of the EU. UKIP is the party that scares people with stories about 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians coming to Britain in January (that's everyone from both countries!) and whose leader has just lied on the radio about obesity causing more deaths than smoking.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Phil Hornby on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:57 pm

Well, it's an easy mistake to make - Miliband ...Balls.....they sound similar - if your head is stuck up your own bottom.

Just as, we imagine, do the words 'arse' and 'elbow' to dear old Landy!

But, be fair - where would we be without the cabaret....? Very Happy
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:27 pm

It’s a pity that, instead of making up stories or grubbing around tabloids looking for tripe that others have fabricated, tlttf can’t face up to the reality of what Ed Miliband has actually been doing – talking to people who don’t support Labour:-

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:56 pm

Wow Ivan, that would take Miliband year as there is so many of them Smile

How does it go again? Day one....refuse to answer the question...Day 2...Finally admit it

I guess he is no different from all the other politicians then....and the merry go round continues

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:17 pm

I guess he is no different from all the other politicians
blueturando. You haven't bothered to read the article, have you? Much easier to just post a fatuous comment instead, isn't it?

Ed Miliband is very different from other modern politicians, because instead of talking to hand-picked audiences in places like warehouses, he's prepared to engage with anyone in the street. Others might like to read the exchange he had with an unemployed man yesterday, even if it's too much bother for you:-

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:42 pm

Ivan wrote:
I guess he is no different from all the other politicians
blueturando. You haven't bothered to read the article, have you? Much easier to just post a fatuous comment instead, isn't it?

Ed Miliband is very different from other modern politicians, because instead of talking to hand-picked audiences in places like warehouses, he's prepared to engage with anyone in the street. Others might like to read the exchange he had with an unemployed man yesterday, even if it's too much bother for you:-

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Ed Miliband is out and about at the moment he was in Chesterfield standing on a pallete with a microphone in the centre of town answering questions from the people that gathered around by the time he was finished Ivan he had over 200 standing around him.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:42 pm

Getting on your soap box is no different from many other opposition politicians of the past. You can say and promise what you like to your audience in opposition as you don't have a record to defend at every question

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:46 pm

blueturando wrote:Getting on your soap box is no different from many other opposition politicians of the past. You can say and promise what you like to your audience in opposition as you don't have a record to defend at every question

You should know more than most about promises that are made before elections blue, if I remember correctly Cameron made plenty and so far he has broken some and not kept the rest that is some record. cheers
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Ivan on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:54 pm

politicians of the past
Precisely. Has there been anyone who was happy to take on hecklers since Harold Wilson did? Ed Miliband's approach is a breath of fresh air after so many politicians - on all sides - have been content to preach to selected audiences.

You can say and promise what you like to your audience in opposition
Just because Cameron was deceitful and cynical enough to lie about almost everything, and to keep his evil plans for the NHS well under wraps, it doesn't mean that "everyone is the same". That's just a tired old Tory line used to try to neutralise arguments when someone is losing.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:12 pm

You should know more than most about promises that are made before elections blue, if I remember correctly Cameron made plenty and so far he has broken some and not kept the rest that is some record

Now there is something we agree on Red, but you will happily accept Miliband when he does the same thing. You and I both know nothing will change, just the colour of the rosettes

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:26 pm

Evil plans for the NHS? Where have you been hiding for the last 15 years Ivan?

Did you think it was the tories that introduced are target driven rather than care given culture. Left NHS Trusts with massive long term debts over PFI. Lost billions on a failed IT systems and contracting medical procedures out to the private sector? Hmm I guess you probably do in your wierd little Labour world

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by blueturando on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:29 pm

Ed Miliband's approach is a breath of fresh

Miliband is a Bell end....Another millionaire posh boy without a clue.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:50 pm

Ivan
Thanks for posting the links - I've really been in two minds about Ed Milliband, and really felt for him on World at One on Monday, when he seemed to be getting bullied - but the pieces you have linked to present him as a politician with a bit more of the right stuff than most - I feel quite encouraged.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed May 01, 2013 8:31 am

blueturando wrote:Getting on your soap box is no different from many other opposition politicians of the past. You can say and promise what you like to your audience in opposition as you don't have a record to defend at every question

At least he is not making the taxpayer pay for his SETUPS like Cameron, on personal publicity events figures show that STAGING PM DIRECT events in the last two years has cost the taxpayer £50,000 excluding policing. It just goes to show he will do or say anything just to get on TV, does he not know that by going on " I'm a Celebrity Get me out of Here" it would not have cost the taxpayer £50,000 plus he would have got himself a lot more than 15 minutes of Fame just like Nadine Dorries, plus his audience is just the chosen few who will not ask akward QUESTIONS unlike Ed Miliband who took questions from real people not the pretend shower that Cameron has at PM DIRECT.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by skwalker1964 on Wed May 01, 2013 11:54 am

blueturando wrote:Evil plans for the NHS? Where have you been hiding for the last 15 years Ivan?

Did you think it was the tories that introduced are target driven rather than care given culture. Left NHS Trusts with massive long term debts over PFI. Lost billions on a failed IT systems and contracting medical procedures out to the private sector? Hmm I guess you probably do in your wierd little Labour world

'Target-driven culture' is just Hunt's way of trying to divert attention onto a supposed lack of a 'culture of compassion' rather than the real issue of understaffing that is so severe and chronic that frontline staff often have no chance of delivering the care and compassion they want to. Francis mentioned understaffing 243 times. Hunt mentioned it not once.

PFI turned out to be a bad idea - but in a context of trying to put right years of Tory underfunding, it looked like a good way to get something done.

Failed IT systems? Hunt plans to 'de-paper' the whole NHS and it doesn't take much in the way of brains to know what a disaster that's going to be. The DWP has only launched its new Universal Credit in one area and already it's a disaster - applications have to be done online and the website code won't accept any browser later than Internet Explorer 6!

Honestly, if you're a Tory supporter it's a bad idea to point fingers because there are always many times more pointing back.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed May 01, 2013 2:58 pm

blueturando wrote:Evil plans for the NHS? Where have you been hiding for the last 15 years Ivan?

Did you think it was the tories that introduced are target driven rather than care given culture. Left NHS Trusts with massive long term debts over PFI. Lost billions on a failed IT systems and contracting medical procedures out to the private sector? Hmm I guess you probably do in your wierd little Labour world

In regard to the NHS blue when did the Labour party refuse Cancer patients drugs to treat their illness ? whereas the Tories today they have put off giving 30 patients an answer for the drug Selective Internal Radiotherapy (magic bullet) for liver cancer I suppose in the hope that before they get round to saying NO those 30 patients will have died, just so that the UK public will not find out just how cold hearted they really are and how much further the privatization of the NHS has gone.
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Labour positioning

Post by oftenwrong on Sun May 19, 2013 12:35 pm

Tory Grandees like (failed) Chancellors Lamont and Lawson find themselves once again on familiar ground. The Party is divided in much the same way as it was in their day and they feel confident in picking up the cudgels to fight the anti-European fight that raged 20 years ago - and which looks like continuing right up to a 2015 election.

All that Labour really needs to do is remain watchful.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sun May 19, 2013 12:37 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Tory Grandees like (failed) Chancellors Lamont and Lawson find themselves once again on familiar ground. The Party is divided in much the same way as it was in their day and they feel confident in picking up the cudgels to fight the anti-European fight that began 20 years ago - and which looks like continuing right up to a 2015 election.

All that Labour really needs to do is remain watchful.

I do not think the Labour party should be sitting back and letting it all happen OW, but taking the time to think things through and then pointing out what the Tory gov't is doing to EFF up the UK economy.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Sun May 19, 2013 12:49 pm

If there are any voters unaware of the effect of a Tory-led Coalition already, Redflag, no amount of Labour pointing out is likely to penetrate.

Cameron, (like John Major) has lost control of his back-benchers, the result of which could be a repeat of 1997 at the next General Election.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Sun May 19, 2013 4:14 pm

ow said: If there are any voters unaware of the effect of a Tory-led Coalition already, Redflag, no amount of Labour pointing out is likely to penetrate.

The problem Labour are having is the same one they have always had, the tame Tory press machine, and the shielding of many facts by the BBC. If Labour want to win in 2015, I personally don’t think it will happen by default. Labour can not and must not allow the Tory led Coalition a moments breath, every time they open their lying gobs, they should be taken to task and show us all of the transparency Herr Cameron makes so much of.
Labour need to occupy 10 Downing Street by winning the next GE, not by the Tories losing it.

Going back some years when Thatcher’s RIP (rest in piss) recession bought Britain to its knees, I lost my Business then my House. Whilst talking to an old mate of mine and telling him what I thought of the Tories, he sprang to their defence, even to the point of querying the actual recession even existed. My mate was a London Transport underground train driver and earned good money, he wasn’t a regular TV watcher and other than War and motoring didn’t actually read a great deal. Why should this man who’s garden is rosy bother reading about things he wasn’t personally witnessing.
My point is How can we expect the public to know what is or isn’t happening unless they are informed. Much of the TV media that gets mentioned on cutting edge are usually shown during the day when many people are working or late at night when those same people have to be in bed to get up for the following day of slavery.
I see it as the Labour Party’s duty to see as many people are informed, and the best way for me would be for every Labour politician to take the Tory liars apart at every given opportunity.
We only have another 24 months left and it wont seem long before that becomes 12 months.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sun May 19, 2013 9:39 pm

oftenwrong wrote:If there are any voters unaware of the effect of a Tory-led Coalition already, Redflag, no amount of Labour pointing out is likely to penetrate.

Cameron, (like John Major) has lost control of his back-benchers, the result of which could be a repeat of 1997 at the next General Election.

I do hope your prediction is correct OW, but there is more to come of Scam..er..ins nastiness and it is in the Unversal credits and I'm sure the UK will then wake up to this Tory gov'ts nastiness then.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Mon May 20, 2013 7:26 pm

Unpleasant though we may find it, the Nasty Party forced its way into Government in 2010 with the aid of quisling Lib-Dems. (They thought the lying Tories would help move away from First-past-the-post elections and towards proportional representation. The fools.) The FIRST thing that Cameron did was ensure a Five-year-term in Government.

Accordingly there is not much anyone can do to change anything before 2015.
Unless the tainted coalition implodes - which is unlikely though not impossible unless the turkeys vote for an early Christmas.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Tue May 21, 2013 12:02 am

oftenwrong wrote:Unpleasant though we may find it, the Nasty Party forced its way into Government in 2010 with the aid of quisling Lib-Dems. (They thought the lying Tories would help move away from First-past-the-post elections and towards proportional representation. The fools.) The FIRST thing that Cameron did was ensure a Five-year-term in Government.

Accordingly there is not much anyone can do to change anything before 2015.
Unless the tainted coalition implodes - which is unlikely though not impossible unless the turkeys vote for an early Christmas.

You say turkeys do not vote for christmas OW, but if you check you will find that every coalition in the UK you will find it has always been the largest party that has pulled out which in this case would mean the Tories pull out of this messy gov't, do you think that will happen ?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Tue May 21, 2013 8:49 am

I sort of think we're in for the full nine yards Red - no change of government until 2015.
We've all seen the Nasty Party survive worse upheavals than this - and I do believe that nice Mr Hague might be having a little look to see if he can involve us in a bit of a war in Syria or thereabouts - just like the dead bitch - hoping to get a bit of jingoism going in time for the next General Election.
Where should the Labour Party position itself? - against war, against any more cuts to the SOCIAL SECURITY (not welfare) budget, in favour of enlightened education in state schools (not academies) and firmly on the side of getting the NHS back into public ownership.

And, most importantly, on the side of evidence based government - rather than the ideollogically biassed stuff we're seeing from the present incumbents.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by tlttf on Tue May 21, 2013 9:22 am

Labour party against war, this is surely turning into a spoof thread. Against winning a war possibly.

On a serious note boatlady what is the problem with an academy as compared to a state school?

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Tue May 21, 2013 10:41 am

boatlady wrote:I sort of think we're in for the full nine yards Red - no change of government until 2015.
We've all seen the Nasty Party survive worse upheavals than this - and I do believe that nice Mr Hague might be having a little look to see if he can involve us in a bit of a war in Syria or thereabouts - just like the dead bitch - hoping to get a bit of jingoism going in time for the next General Election.
Where should the Labour Party position itself? - against war, against any more cuts to the SOCIAL SECURITY (not welfare) budget, in favour of enlightened education in state schools (not academies) and firmly on the side of getting the NHS back into public ownership.

And, most importantly, on the side of evidence based government - rather than the ideollogically biassed stuff we're seeing from the present incumbents.

I hope your wrong boatlady as I do not think the UK could take this gov't until 2015, I agree we do not need any more cuts but there is one coming once Universal credits comes into being its to do with housing benefit I am awaiting the info from my MP once I get it I will put it on here for you all to have a read.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 21, 2013 12:49 pm

Redflag wrote:.... it has always been the largest party that has pulled out which in this case would mean the Tories pull out of this messy gov't, do you think that will happen ?

Your guess is as good as mine on that, Redflag, but Cameron is already on record saying that the present coalition will campaign as two distinctly separate parties, in the run-up to the next General Election.

He has to maintain the fiction that his Tory Party will get enough seats to form a Government next time.



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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Tue May 21, 2013 7:25 pm

If they have to separate before the next general election, does that mean towards the end of 2014 they will dissolve the coalition and then starts the fight for 2015 general election OW ?
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 21, 2013 8:01 pm

The decision which they make on timing could tell us a lot.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed May 22, 2013 8:50 am

OW what sort of thing would it tell us, ie if earlier ?, or waiting until the last minute ?. IMHO I think the top brass of the Lib-Dems will bring this coalition to an end earlier when the UK public start getting hot under the collar at the cuts.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by oftenwrong on Wed May 22, 2013 12:38 pm

If the Quisling Lib-Dems decide to jump ship for whatever reason, we shall see a sordid rush from the remaining Tory Nasties to show just how nasty they really can be without even the limited restraint imposed by their coalition partners.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Wed May 22, 2013 6:14 pm

Labour party against war, this is surely turning into a spoof thread. Against winning a war possibly.

On a serious note boatlady what is the problem with an academy as compared to a state school?

sorry tlttf - missed your post - to answer your questions
1) my opinion as to where the party should place itself is that it should be against war. I hold to the Quaker peace testimony, and believe that there is always a better solution than killing strangers. If you want, I will post a link.

2) re education - I'm a bit against anything that takes resources away from State schools - that means I'm against all private education, grammar schools, and along with them academies. I believe that EVERY child should have the BEST education available, that this should be freely available within the State system, and that any improvements to education should be evidence based and available within the State system - so far, I think many educationalists are unconvinced of the merits of academies. When the teaching profession comes out in favour of them, no doubt I would want every school to be an academy.

These are my opinions, based on my life experiences - I don't pretend to speak for the Labour or any other party.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Wed May 22, 2013 6:23 pm

oftenwrong wrote:If the Quisling Lib-Dems decide to jump ship for whatever reason, we shall see a sordid rush from the remaining Tory Nasties to show just how nasty they really can be without even the limited restraint imposed by their coalition partners.

It would be usless OW there are enough in the H.O.C to stop any nastiness of the Tories, if the Lib-Dems pull out they are still MPs and entitled to vote for or against any bill.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by tlttf on Wed May 22, 2013 6:26 pm

No problem boatlady, surely back in the days of the Grammar which was/is state funded, it helped those with the ability but no money to aspire to greater things. Personally I don't think a "one size/type education" suits everybody as the schools tend to lean toward mediocre and middle of the road education, this helps nobody.

From a personal view my own grandson attends a local academy (the first secondary school to be built in 30+years) and I can vouch for the fantastic job the teachers do there.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by boatlady on Wed May 22, 2013 7:04 pm

Glad the academy's working out for your grandson and I hope his education makes it possible for him to make a great success of his life.

Went to a Grammar myself and not too unhappy with the result, although I did notice at a recent class reunion that many of my school colleagues never seem to have been able to move on from that early bit of glory - still doing the same schoolboy (and girl) status games. In my experience, Grammar school education did not help us to learn to think for ourselves - just helped many of us to absorb the snobbery of the teachers we had (who all seemed to think they were meant for better things than educating the sons and daughters of the working class)

My point is, if some kids are having a quality education that helps them fulfill their potential, why can't they all? And it seems to me the answer to that question might be, that for every child getting the good education, there will be dozens put on the scrap heap. That's not fair - all children should have the chance to achieve all they can, and while we as a country spend money on elitist and experimental educational systems, there doesn't seem to be the money to give every one the fair chance they deserve.

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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by tlttf on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:33 am

Deleted. Off topic.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:16 am

boatlady wrote:Glad the academy's working out for your grandson and I hope his education makes it possible for him to make a great success of his life.

Went to a Grammar myself and not too unhappy with the result, although I did notice at a recent class reunion that many of my school colleagues never seem to have been able to move on from that early bit of glory - still doing the same schoolboy (and girl) status games. In my experience, Grammar school education did not help us to learn to think for ourselves - just helped many of us to absorb the snobbery of the teachers we had (who all seemed to think they were meant for better things than educating the sons and daughters of the working class)

My point is, if some kids are having a quality education that helps them fulfill their potential, why can't they all? And it seems to me the answer to that question might be, that for every child getting the good education, there will be dozens put on the scrap heap. That's not fair - all children should have the chance to achieve all they can, and while we as a country spend money on elitist and experimental educational systems, there doesn't seem to be the money to give every one the fair chance they deserve.


Good post boatlady and well thought out and very true, all kids should have the best education that we can provide for them no matter where they live or that there parents can not afford private education for them, all kids have talents within them and that is down to teachers to help nourish that talent and too bring it to its conclusion for the betterment of kids in there class.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by sickchip on Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:40 am

The problem for Labour is that by, in general, saying nothing they can appear to be in approximate agreement/collusion/cahoots with what the Tory led coalition are doing. This will simply reinforce the notion among cynical, perhaps disinterested, voters that 'it makes no difference who I vote for - they're all basically the same - none of them do anything for us'.

It's all very well playing a prolonged game of chess with the Tory party/press - but the Labour party still need to convince people they are the 'peoples' party.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by bobby on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:22 pm

It's all very well playing a prolonged game of chess with the Tory party/press - but the Labour party still need to convince people they are the 'peoples' party.

Absolutely.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Redflag on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:17 pm

bobby wrote:It's all very well playing a prolonged game of chess with the Tory party/press - but the Labour party still need to convince people they are the 'peoples' party.

Absolutely.

Its is time the Labour party got its finger out and started letting people see the difference between the Labour party and the other parties.
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

Post by Phil Hornby on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:28 pm

And there was me thinking I must be the only one...! Very Happy
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Re: Where should the Labour Party position itself? (Part 2)

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