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Do they understand?

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Do they understand?

Post by Heretic on Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

There is one kind of Christianity that never spoken about. This is the one where Christians see that the heart of God is broken because his children “Adam and Eve” chose the fruit of “the tree of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” rather than to live within his will and grow into his children. Mature children that would pass on through the generations his will and his Kingdom in their hearts. These children would not of needed a messiah because they would not of fallen.

It could be that this broken hearted God has worked tirelessly through the generations to establish the condition where a symbolic foundation could be made to start the restoration of mankind and at various levels through Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob eventually to Moses and through the history of the Jewish people up to the life of Jesus.

Jesus represents symbolically a rebirth of the ideal that Adam was meant to fulfil. Jesus would of established The Kingdom of God On Earth if the Jewish people had embraced him but instead for the sake of fear and a few other excuses. As a consequence of this betrayal by the Jewish people of God’s anointed one the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth could not be established, but there was enough of a foundation for God’s Kingdom to be established spiritually and for God to continue working with mankind but instead of through the Jewish people he elected to work through those that accepted and relied on Jesus as the foundation of their lives.

Parallels have been drawn between events in Jewish and Christian histories and significant events.

I don’t have time to check the reliability of the owners of the site but I have come across these ideas before http://www.puritans.net/news/parallelhistories022403.htm among other places I saw the essentials of Jewish / Christian parallel histories on a wall chart/poster in the office of a Catholic Priest.

What comes out to me from the Bible account of the Jewish people and early Christian history is how hard and how desperately God worked for man’s salvation and how that was don done primarily through the lives of significant people in a specific genealogy first of physically through the Jewish people and then spiritually through the Christians. This work has been tireless on the part of God but patchy on the part of those few significant men, men that everybody else needed to catch the coat-tails of.

The Jews still look for their Messiah, the Christians seek the return of theirs and Islam (which could be perceived as a successful attempt to bring the idol worshipping Bedouin into the monotheistic fold) are expecting a figure to come at some unspecified time in the future to wrap up history to some kind of conclusion [not dissimilar to Revelations and Jewish End time prophesies].

That was a very brief synopsis of monotheism but the striking thing is the effort of God and a tiny number of others. What gratitude does God get for this? From many people a false sense of gratitude and a shopping list, if I was God I might feel tempted to tell these where to go so it’s just as well I'm not God.

Where is the understanding of this parents broken heart, his patience, who can even imagine God crying each time one of us hurts him by, who can imagine wiping the tears of God and promising with every fibre in his existence that he will not hurt him again, who tries to undo all the harm they've done. I have seen this but not in a religious context. I have seen it when a repentant son asks his father for forgiveness, and seen the promise of good behaviour kept. Where it is not seen is in church, it is not seen in the prayers of Christians or in their hearts enacted (in their lives in other words).

[I will post this on two sites so if you happen to post on both then please forgive me but I have been thinking of this for a while].

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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:41 am

Now we are actually getting to the point.

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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:01 pm

Yep you hate the heat.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:17 am

polyglide wrote:Now we are actually getting to the point.
Which is?
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:57 am

You are not realy interested in the truth, you just like to argue on any basis irrespective of any merit that may be involved.

A completely negative attitude.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:53 am

In other words you can't answer. Again.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:56 am

No you do not understand again.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Dan Fante on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:00 pm

Could we just have a normal conversation for once? Because when you try to be clever you miss the mark every time. I asked what the point was that you alluded to and you can't even give a straight answer to that question. If you think you're kidding anyone you're party to some esoteric data you're sadly mistaken.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:33 pm

Hi Dan, well said mate.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:11 pm

I do not try to be clever, I deal in facts that need neither cleverness or anyhting else.

If you want a question answering, then put the question in a direct manner and not in some ill defined manner.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Dan Fante on Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:44 pm

polyglide wrote:I deal in facts that need neither cleverness or anyhting else.
Make it 'facts' and we'd be in agreement for once.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:04 pm

Like I said, cleverness, is for those with a limited ability to grasp 'facts'.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Dan Fante on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:07 pm

That's you trying to be clever one post after you've said you don't try to be clever.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:42 pm

Wrong again, eventually, eventually, you may just come to understand that it is far better to simplify matters than to become involved in deep water.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:26 pm

Sorry PG it is you that has got to deal in facts, Dan already does.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:35 am

The fact is I disagree.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:25 pm

too bad then PG
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:01 am

Yes, for those who disagree.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:11 pm

Never give up do you PG
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:28 pm

It is well worth the fight even to save just one person from the Devil's clutches.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:31 pm

keep fighting
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:18 pm

I will.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:51 pm

Shame
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:29 pm

On you.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:48 pm

And others when you are rude to ladies, like you were to Shirina earlier.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:15 pm

YEP lovely and warm, just like my CURRY last night.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:37 pm

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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:37 pm

That's how I felt last night, ahahah.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:17 am

I like Shirina but not her ideas.

I would not like to hurt her feelings other than to point out her lack of understanding of the truth.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:53 am

I don't think you have a lot to worry about re: hurting her feelings.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:39 am

Then I am happy.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Sat May 03, 2014 10:27 pm

I'm sure Shirina understands the truth very well.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Tue May 06, 2014 2:35 pm

But maybe does not realise the implications.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Tue May 06, 2014 5:44 pm

If you asked her yourself PG, I'm sure she would help you out.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Shirina on Wed May 07, 2014 2:22 pm

Dan Fante wrote:I don't think you have a lot to worry about re: hurting her feelings.




 jocolor
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Wed May 07, 2014 2:52 pm

That one made me laugh Shirina. Laughing 
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by Shirina on Wed May 07, 2014 3:28 pm

polyglide wrote:But maybe  does not realise the implications.

Actually, I do. In fact, that was one of the first threads that logic tugged on to unravel the tapestry of religious belief.

IF there was a god at all, I do not believe in this reprehensible paradigm that all those who don't believe and worship will be sent to a place of eternal torment. That goes double for a God that is supposed to be the source of goodness and morality. There is nothing moral about demanding love and worship and there certainly is nothing moral about eternal torture. What's worse is that the torture comes NOT as a result of being a bad person. No, it comes simply for failing to grovel and worship and accept eternal slavery in the chains of a supposedly "omni-benevolent" dictator-god. This is why I said before that love without respect is meaningless - it is the kind of love one has for an object, a non-person, or for an activity. "I love sports" or "I love my car."

IF there is a real god, and it turns out to be the God you worship, then who really cares where my soul goes because I would only be choosing between two different kinds of hell.

I've said this before, too - that a true Heaven would have to be one of our own creation, not some generic one-size-fits-all afterlife. In order for the latter to have any meaning, we would all have to be lobotomized at the Pearly Gates to remove all of the diversity and differences that makes each person unique. Instead, we would all like the same things and find the same Heaven to be a paradise. How boring is that? Plus, this sort of lobotomy would render our time here utterly moot since all that has made us who we are would be erased, replaced with some computer program that would allow us to behave properly while traipsing along those streets of gold.

And if that isn't enough, just think about the ramifications of a perfect paradise. Everything - and I do mean everything - that we do here on earth is to improve our lives and our surroundings in some way. Or, I should say, we improve it according to our own tastes. Thus every movement we make, from blinking our eyes to scratching an itch to fidgeting in our chair to taking a dump - they are all things that are designed to make our lives a little more comfortable. Our jobs, our families, our friends, our hobbies, our entertainment - ALL of it exists to help make our lives better.

BUT, in a place that is perfect, there isn't even a reason to sit down. We would have no motivation to even move, to blink, to breathe, to do anything at all except to stand motionless in a euphoric state. Don't you see that, the impossibility of a perfect paradise? Even assuming that your God is real and the Bible is true, haven't you ever asked yourself WHY God would put the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden knowing full well that Eve would be tempted and bring about the Fall? Well, it stands to reason that God realized that Adam and Eve would have no purpose in a perfect paradise - no reason to do a damned thing except frolick, and not even that, to be honest. No doubt God needed to create evil to give humanity something to strive for and fight against.

If there is a hell, we're already in it. That much I am convinced of (and I hate ending sentences with a preposition - should I thwack my hand with a ruler?)

But I do not believe, not for a second, that anyone is simply tossed into a place of torture simply for not believing in the right god. Sorry, but that is about as immoral as one can get. So I made a mistake, my judgment was faulty, I messed up. But it would be an honest mistake - and I cannot fathom any true god who would feel so slighted, so insulted, so offended as to doom me to eternal torment. A true god, a perfect god, would not have such a colossal ego and would likely be even more humble than we are. We're the ones with the pride - not this bloviating destroyer of cities and temper-tantrum-throwing crybaby who gets his kicks from pranking Abraham to kill his kid. Sorry, but no. No. No. No. No. and No.

Ergo, I think it is you who does not understand the implications - and while I do think you're generally a good person and strive to help others, you still cling to very primitive notions of what a god is and what a god should be. You still worship the tyrant, the petulant child who demands love and worship, the unpredictable psycho that destroys cities and murders kids to get at the Egyptian pharaoh. You still worship the kind of God that had entire civilizations wasting phenomenal amounts of time, money, lives, and resources building massive megolithic monuments and cathedrals almost as tall as skyscrapers. You still worship a human god with human failings such as jealousy, wrath, and narcissism. You still worship a Hebrew tribal god that isn't any more dignified, regal, moral, or sophisticated than the thousands of other perpetually angry gods that came before.

If there is a god, he/she/it will TRULY be incomprehensible, and if this god is moral, he/she/it will be TRULY moral - not this faux morality invoked by the Bible with its "do as I say, not as I do" teachings.

And I don't believe for a nanosecond that, even if a god such as yours exists, that he would punish me for my nonbelief. For all you know, my presence here, right now, on this forum, talking to you has a divine purpose neither of us are even aware of. Perhaps it is MY job to steer YOU in the right direction instead of the other way around. Whatever the case may be, if your god exists, then your god also assigned to me a purpose, and that purpose requires me to be an atheist. So that's what I am. Any god who would punish me for carrying out the role I was assigned is just a walking talking monstrosity that needs to be put down like a rabid dog.

And that's my dollar and two cents worth of input.

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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Fri May 09, 2014 10:49 am

You are only one dollar and two cents away from the truth then.

God does not demand anything.

He gives the options for us to either live the life intended or go our own way.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Fri May 09, 2014 4:46 pm

I shall be catching a different bus to then PG.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by polyglide on Tue May 13, 2014 2:23 pm

to then?
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by stuart torr on Tue May 13, 2014 6:36 pm

Don't be too slow crossing the road then PG.
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Re: Do they understand?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue May 13, 2014 8:34 pm

When computer programs have efficiently and accurately mapped every aspect of human psychology, will it still be possible to have discussions about God?
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Re: Do they understand?

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