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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:07 pm

Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

The Gnostic wing of Christianity, if it can even be called that today, has quite a few differences to Christianity and Catholicism.

If the old Gnostic Christians were here, they would hardly recognize what has happened to the original Orthodox Catholic Church or it's various offshoots in Protestantism or Islam. The Gnostic Christian Jesus would have a fit and would be quite disappointed I think. I know that this Gnostic Christian is.

The two main differences that moved the old Christians to kill Gnostic Christians and burn their scriptures was literalism in reading scriptures and the fact that the Gnostic version of Jesus was a Universalist.

That Gnostic Christian Jesus, and the Gnostic Christians of that flavor, (there are likely as many Gnostic sects as Christian sects), sees a spark of God in all people including women and gays. That fact, to me, makes Gnostic Christianity a more desirable denomination of Christianity than all the rest.

If a religion cannot abide with equality of the sexes then to my mind it is not a just religion and is not worthy of the support of moral people. Inequality is an immoral position and most of the Abrahamic cults are of that immoral persuasion.

As the superior Catholic theology, it is my hope that Gnostic Christianity will eventually bury the non-egalitarian and immoral Christian cults as their members recognize that equality is the right moral system for all to live under.

If you have investigated Gnostic Christianity, do you agree that from a moral POV, they are the superior Christian theology thanks to equality and Universalism?

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by snowyflake on Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:48 am

I'm an atheist, Greatest. I think all religion is a form of psychological neediness and emotional immaturity for something that does not exist in reality. I find it unsurprising that you think that your religion is superior to any other. All religious people think this.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:56 pm

snowyflake wrote:I'm an atheist, Greatest. I think all religion is a form of psychological neediness and emotional immaturity for something that does not exist in reality. I find it unsurprising that you think that your religion is superior to any other. All religious people think this.


There you go doing what believers do. All the others in one simple basket. You did not even read the O P did you?

Do the other Abrahamic cults give full equality to women and gays? No they do not.

If you do not see our doing so as a plus for all, including atheist who like justice, then your sense of social justice is not well developed.

You also do not seem to understand that religion has little to do with psychological neediness and emotional immaturity. These links will bring your thinking up to speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:48 pm

Greatest, all religions are the same to myself, whether they are gnostic or not, I do not care which you support I will not hold it against you. Personally I am an atheist and that is that.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:00 pm

stuart torr wrote:Greatest, all religions are the same to myself, whether they are gnostic or not, I do not care which you support I will not hold it against you. Personally I am an atheist and that is that.

A better moral choice than the religions on offer.

That does not take away from the fact that if you have a decent social conscience, you will talk up Gnostic Christianity over the other religions as it is almost the only one that recognizes the equality of all people.

You may not care too much as you are likely not effected by inequality of women and gays my friend but think of the women in your family and all the other women and gays who will continue to suffer under the religions we have now if Gnostic Christianity does not ascend to the top of the immoral Abrahamic cults, Christianity and Islam.

To you, and I do not blame you, all religions are evil but remember that Gnostic Christianity is not as evil as the others.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:39 pm

True Greatest, as all of we atheists stand up for the rights of women and gays very vociferously.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:48 pm

stuart torr wrote:True Greatest, as all of we atheists stand up for the rights of women and gays very vociferously.

Not all from my experience but certainly the vast majority and you thus showing that you are superior in morals than the mainstream religions.

The only argument I ever have with atheists is when they do not believe in my personal apotheosis, and I cannot blame them for that, and we argue about forming an atheist church which I promote.

Most atheists do not acknowledge our groupish or tribal instincts and that is why it is taking atheism so long in becoming the majority.

I believe in a more progressive atheism and think that the huge religious machine needs to have a huge atheist machine against it if atheists want to be more effective. That machine will likely be called an atheist church. There are already a few around but not near enough.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:57 pm

A very interesting hypothesis you put forward there Greatest, although the idea seems straightforward in thinking and there is one giant stoppage point is there not? Why do none believers need a church?
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:54 pm

stuart torr wrote:A very interesting hypothesis you put forward there Greatest, although the idea seems straightforward in thinking and there is one giant stoppage point is there not? Why do none believers need a church?

Because they should recognize that their children have a tribal or groupish instinct and if there is no atheist church to appease that real need, then the religious church will get most of them. It is not to protect us free thinkers. It is for our children and the protection of their thinking ability.

If an atheist church existed at present, atheists would have the pathetic % of the population that they now have. Atheists would either be Gnostic Christians or pure atheists and the % would bury the religious just as secular governance has buried religious laws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6HUgrRlQ

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:37 pm

Greatest, we have a growing percentage of the population as it is, and I can only see us getting bigger, as the youngsters today are not interested in god, or going to church. So all I can see for the future is more and more churches closing as they are doing at the moment.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:53 pm

stuart torr wrote:Greatest, we have a growing percentage of the population as it is, and I can only see us getting bigger, as the youngsters today are not interested in god, or going to church. So all I can see for the future is more and more churches closing as they are doing at the moment.

No argument but note how long it took us to get here.

The way to beat religions is at their own game and the way atheism is dragging it's feet, I fear it will take at least two more generations. Perhaps I am just too impatient.

It remains though that if we do not appease the tribal natures of our children, too high of a % will be lost to bad religions. If we do not push to pave the way for them, they will not stay in the more demanding position of looking at the tribe from without.

That fear is what has kept women as second class citizens by religions all of these years.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by snowyflake on Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:32 am

Hi Greatest, of course I read the OP or else I would not have responded as I did. Getting arsey with me because I don't happen to agree with you is hardly a way to promote debate is it?

You are on here and on Amazon trying to show Christianity in it's failings to women and homosexuals and while I would agree that your gnostic christian stance is more open, it is still a belief in something that cannot be proven or tested. It's a personal experience that you have ascribed certain meaning to and which is real to you. It doesn't mean it is real. Trying to prove that one religion is superior to another makes your belief no different to any other religious belief which was the point of my post.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:13 am

There is only one true Christian religion and that is based on the belief in Jesus and all he stands for.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:39 am

Who was just some looney the romans didn't like.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by snowyflake on Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:36 pm

[quote="polyglide"]There is only one true Christian religion and that is based on the belief in Jesus and all he stands for.

[/quote]

Yes yes polyglide we all know that billions of people around the world are following the one true religion....whatever that may be.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:50 pm

One that follows false gods snowyflake.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Norm Deplume on Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:12 pm

polyglide wrote:There is only one true Christian religion and that is based on the belief in Jesus and all he stands for.


When you express it that way it leaves the possibility of a true Muslim religion, a true Zoroastrian religion, a true Norse pantheon religion...and on and on. In your world are there lots of untrue Christian religions? (The belief in Jesus and all he stands for is explicit in any form of Christianity.)

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:35 pm

snowyflake wrote:Hi Greatest, of course I read the OP or else I would not have responded as I did. Getting arsey with me because I don't happen to agree with you is hardly a way to promote debate is it?

You are on here and on Amazon trying to show Christianity in it's failings to women and homosexuals and while I would agree that your gnostic christian stance is more open, it is still a belief in something that cannot be proven or tested. It's a personal experience that you have ascribed certain meaning to and which is real to you. It doesn't mean it is real. Trying to prove that one religion is superior to another makes your belief no different to any other religious belief which was the point of my post.

Are you saying that Gnostic Christian beliefs in equality for all is somehow inferior to the other religions on offer?

Do you believe in equality for all?

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:40 pm

polyglide wrote:There is only one true Christian religion and that is based on the belief in Jesus and all he stands for.


Did the Jesus you know stand for equality for all or was he placing women and gays below men?

The Jesus I know believed all souls to be equal. It is a part of righteousness to Gnostic Christians.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

On Righteousness

The righteousness of God is a kind of sharing along with equality. There is equality in the heaven which is stretched out in all directions and contains the entire earth in its circle. The night reveals all the stars equally.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:44 pm

stuart torr wrote:Who was just some looney the romans didn't like.

They liked the one Christians now know. Rome invented him to like. That Roman book licker is not what the Jews wanted or expected of their messiah. Theirs was to live and rule. Not kiss Roman ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:47 pm

Norm Deplume wrote:
polyglide wrote:There is only one true Christian religion and that is based on the belief in Jesus and all he stands for.


When you express it that way it leaves the possibility of a true Muslim religion, a true Zoroastrian religion, a true Norse pantheon religion...and on and on. In your world are there lots of untrue Christian religions? (The belief in Jesus and all he stands for is explicit in any form of Christianity.)


True but it is hard to understand what Jesus wants. Some Christian cults allow only one wife for instance while another Christian cult will allow as many as you can afford. Some few are Universalist and while most demand a hell for all those they hate. Their God usually hates everyone they do. Chance? I doubt it.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Shirina on Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:56 pm

If atheism ever formed a church, then it would no longer be what it is.

Aside from not believing in deities, there are other aspects of atheism that sets it apart from religious belief. Yes, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but I think the following is generally true for most atheists.

For one thing, atheists tend to be free spirits, if you will. Many of us have a rebellious streak; we were the ones always getting in trouble for "talking back" or "sassing" or "giving lip." We questioned authority, questioned why we do the things we do, and we questioned the things we believed.

Secondly, most atheists haven't made atheism a part of their own identity. If you insult Christianity, you may as well insult a Christian. To them, there is no difference between their own selves and their religion. The ego and the belief are inextricably intertwined. Atheists don't do that with atheism, and while we may identify as atheist, that doesn't make us who we are.

None of those things made us atheists nor are they the reasons for our atheism. But those traits allowed us to see religion in a more honest light - one that allowed for critical analysis, logic, and scrutiny rather than just blind faith. "Do as your told because I said so" never worked very well for those who often become atheists. If we are to obey, we want to know why we should - and if no good answer is forthcoming, we tend to go our own way.

Therefore, a "church" of atheism won't work very well. Because, as in any group setting, hierarchies will begin to form. People will separate into social cliques. People will seek power and leadership roles. Pretty soon, we really WILL be a chuirch with someone telling us what to do and what to believe - you're not a REAL atheist if you don't listen to the high priest. Things like evolution will become atheism's dogma and science will become atheism's god. That's what happens when you get a lot of peolple together.

And while I do agree that atheism needs to become a powerful political force - there are more of us than you think, but many are still hiding - and perhaps some sort of political organization could be created for the sake of activism. But a church? I think most atheists would turn up their noses at even the implication.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:41 pm

Shirina

We have no argument but FMPOV, knowing that most of us have a groupish or tribal nature that will seek to appease itself, I know that if atheists do not create some kind of group to give their own some kind of fellowship then I cannot see your numbers growing as quickly as I would like.

Hard to say though as churches are closing in record numbers, so I hear. I have not tried to find the stats.

I do listen to sociologists like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

and leading atheists like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6HUgrRlQ

who say that some kind of atheist church or world wide organization is required.

I know that that goes against what most independent free thinkers think but the evidence is there I think.

I see doing so as atheists showing their social and moral duty to their own.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:38 pm

Shirina love you are exactly right, as an atheist if I had to go to church every sunday I would say no thank-you. Then try and find fellow atheists on-line as we do now and chat etc, you are right I believe in the fact that there are a lot of us in hiding so to speak, I know quite a few but they will not come on-line to chat and put our numbers up. A church is a big no no.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:33 am

There is no way in which to consider any other religion when you adopt the chance Jesus gave us after mankind had reached the point of no return regarding humankind's behaviour.

If you want to create false God's then that is what you are doing, it has nothing to do with those who believe in Jesus.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:06 am

stuart torr wrote:Shirina love you are exactly right, as an atheist if I had to go to church every sunday I would say no thank-you. Then try and find fellow atheists on-line as we do now and chat etc, you are right I believe in the fact that there are a lot of us in hiding so to speak, I know quite a few but they will not come on-line to chat and put our numbers up. A church is a big no no.

So you will not spend an hour with friends and neighbors in fellowship but will spend three on the web instead. Nah, atheists do not need fellowship.

Don't listen to that scholarly clip on your groupish instinct or give your children a place to exercise theirs. Lose then to a religion instead.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:11 am

polyglide wrote:There is no way in which to consider any other religion when you adopt the chance Jesus gave us after mankind had reached the point of no return regarding humankind's behaviour.

If you want to create false God's then that is what you are doing, it has nothing to do with those who believe in Jesus.


So to you, the Jesus you know is a real God who will ignore mankind for 2,000 years without giving us guidance and will suddenly come down and smite to his hearts content. A completely immoral view.

It would be like a deadbeat dad suddenly popping up in his son's life and blasting him for not doing things the fathers way.

If your God does as you think he will do, then he is a really large ass hole. I am not sure what that make his followers.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:27 am

God gave those prior to the birth of Jesus every option for good or evil, he stated clearly the path to take and it was ignored.

The guidance Jesus gave was and is, easier than previously, all he requests is to believe in him and his father.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:52 am

athiests rule PG.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:55 am

polyglide wrote:God gave those prior to the birth of Jesus every option for good or evil, he stated clearly the path to take and it was ignored.

The guidance Jesus gave was and is, easier than previously, all he requests is to believe in him and his father.

Would you believe an immoral deadbeat God or dad on moral issues?

If so, give your head a shake.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:00 pm

stuart torr wrote:athiests  rule PG.

I am not an atheist but agree in the sense that atheists do not have to make pretzels of their brains or shame themselves with idiotic and immoral edicts while hiding behind faith without facts.

They are like children that don't want to grow up. A huge success for the church who likes nothing more than dumbed down sheep. So much easier to fleece than intelligent goats.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:02 pm

polyglide wrote:God gave those prior to the birth of Jesus every option for good or evil, he stated clearly the path to take and it was ignored.

The guidance Jesus gave was and is, easier than previously, all he requests is to believe in him and his father.

Huh. Do you not believe in the trinity? How can God be before Jesus was born then?  headbang 

Or did God grow that third head later?

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:02 pm

Man is the one who decides his own morals and no one else.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:06 pm

polyglide wrote:Man is the one who decides his own morals and no one else.

As it should be. Only a fool would think that a genocidal son murdering God should guide men whose morals have surpassed his many years ago.

Note how no Christian in their right mind is asking for implantation of biblical law. Christians are foolish. Not crazy.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:26 pm

We consider death and brutallity etc; in human terms, God will only punish those who deserve to be punished.

Why should not those who deliberately do their own thing not be punished when it is against his wishes.

It is man that has done all the killing not God.

Just look at the state the world is in, it says it all regarding wether man is capable of governing himself without guidance.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:44 pm

polyglide wrote:We consider death and brutallity etc; in human terms, God will only punish those who deserve to be punished.

Why should not those who deliberately do their own thing not be punished when it is against his wishes.

It is man that has done all the killing not God.

Just look at the state the world is in, it says it all regarding wether man  is capable of governing himself without guidance.

If man is not then why is you absentee landlord not here correcting what he will torture and condemn us for?

As to how badly we are doing have a look and see that the sky is not falling except to fools who will not look at the evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

Like your God, you are way behind the times.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:48 pm

Greatest, I really do not think much of this gnostic Christianity, as the way you put it over is completely jumbled to make no proper sense whatsoever thumbsdown 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Shirina on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:01 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Note how no Christian in their right mind is asking for implantation of biblical law. Christians are foolish. Not crazy.


Come to America, then. You'll occassionally find politicians who are itching to make the Old Testament the official law of the land.

Go check out my blogs under the list of stupidity thread. There are several articles linked in there showing you what I mean. One moron state representative even said that parents should have the right to murder their kids if the kids are disrespectful ... because Deuteronomy says we can. No kidding.

Of course, that just means that too many American Christians are NOT in their right minds.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:03 pm

stuart torr wrote:Greatest, I really do not think much of this gnostic Christianity, as the way you put it over is completely jumbled to make no proper sense whatsoever thumbsdown 

Learning anything new is tough. Motivation and desire are required.

Those who do not recognize that t they have a spiritual side likely find it more difficult.

I do want to be clear though and it may be because i am French that I am not as clear as I would like.

Where did I lose you and what issue can I try to clear up.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:14 pm

Shirina wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Note how no Christian in their right mind is asking for implantation of biblical law. Christians are foolish. Not crazy.


Come to America, then. You'll occassionally find politicians who are itching to make the Old Testament the official law of the land.

Go check out my blogs under the list of stupidity thread. There are several articles linked in there showing you what I mean. One moron state representative even said that parents should have the right to murder their kids if the kids are disrespectful ... because Deuteronomy says we can. No kidding.

Of course, that just means that too many American Christians are NOT in their right minds.
 
I believe you. Have an example. Last two seconds. Priceless.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjR7AWSmI6o
 
P. S.

I thought you were a Brit.

Regards
DL
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