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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

The Gnostic wing of Christianity, if it can even be called that today, has quite a few differences to Christianity and Catholicism.

If the old Gnostic Christians were here, they would hardly recognize what has happened to the original Orthodox Catholic Church or it's various offshoots in Protestantism or Islam. The Gnostic Christian Jesus would have a fit and would be quite disappointed I think. I know that this Gnostic Christian is.

The two main differences that moved the old Christians to kill Gnostic Christians and burn their scriptures was literalism in reading scriptures and the fact that the Gnostic version of Jesus was a Universalist.

That Gnostic Christian Jesus, and the Gnostic Christians of that flavor, (there are likely as many Gnostic sects as Christian sects), sees a spark of God in all people including women and gays. That fact, to me, makes Gnostic Christianity a more desirable denomination of Christianity than all the rest.

If a religion cannot abide with equality of the sexes then to my mind it is not a just religion and is not worthy of the support of moral people. Inequality is an immoral position and most of the Abrahamic cults are of that immoral persuasion.

As the superior Catholic theology, it is my hope that Gnostic Christianity will eventually bury the non-egalitarian and immoral Christian cults as their members recognize that equality is the right moral system for all to live under.

If you have investigated Gnostic Christianity, do you agree that from a moral POV, they are the superior Christian theology thanks to equality and Universalism?

Regards
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Tue May 27, 2014 7:12 pm

PG, as you know I do not believe in a creator, I believe life came about through abiogenesis, which to myself seems to be the only viable option. There are so many additions to the bible and Genesis itself is a pack of lies, you can pick so many holes in the bible that to pick them out would take all week.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Wed May 28, 2014 3:21 pm

We have covered all the present theories previously and I am aware of all the general ones put forward as the answer to life etc;

The one that no one can explain is, where did it all start and where did that which started come from in the first place.

In terms of time, this is far beyond our ability to comprehend.

The extent of the universe is the same.

If the universe is expanding then what through, and what is the extent of that and what is on the other side of that etc; etc;

There is no such thing as time, everything is and will be in one form or another for eternity.



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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed May 28, 2014 4:00 pm

polyglide wrote:He who laughs last Stu.

A particularly moronic aspect of the thinking of some religious types is the way in which they look forward to their inevitable demise because they think they'll go to heaven and everything will be just peachy. When it gets nasty is when that has an additional aspect of gleeful condemnation for those who don't believe so therefore won't make it. Of course, that's moronic too, because we'll all just be dead and gone.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Wed May 28, 2014 4:18 pm

If that is so, then our living has just been in vain.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Wed May 28, 2014 6:53 pm

Yep that's all it is PG ALL FOR NOTHING, now that's what we atheist believe, just a box of bones or an urn of ashes. No heaven or hell.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dan Fante on Thu May 29, 2014 8:44 am

polyglide wrote:If that is so, then our living has just been in vain.
Laughing Speak for yourself. I enjoy it on the whole.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Thu May 29, 2014 11:45 am

Hi Dan, I enjoy most of it too, just the end part I was talking about.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dan Fante on Thu May 29, 2014 12:25 pm

My point was really just that there doesn't have to be an afterlife or a god (in the Judeo-Christian sense anyway) for there to be a point to life. But I agree with you about death.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri May 30, 2014 9:53 pm

Shirina wrote:If atheism ever formed a church, then it would no longer be what it is.

Aside from not believing in deities, there are other aspects of atheism that sets it apart from religious belief. Yes, there will always be exceptions to the rule, but I think the following is generally true for most atheists.

For one thing, atheists tend to be free spirits, if you will. Many of us have a rebellious streak; we were the ones always getting in trouble for "talking back" or "sassing" or "giving lip."  We questioned authority, questioned why we do the things we do, and we questioned the things we believed.

Secondly, most atheists haven't made atheism a part of their own identity. If you insult Christianity, you may as well insult a Christian. To them, there is no difference between their own selves and their religion. The ego and the belief are inextricably intertwined. Atheists don't do that with atheism, and while we may identify as atheist, that doesn't make us who we are.

None of those things made us atheists nor are they the reasons for our atheism. But those traits allowed us to see religion in a more honest light - one that allowed for critical analysis, logic, and scrutiny rather than just blind faith. "Do as your told because I said so" never worked very well for those who often become atheists. If we are to obey, we want to know why we should - and if no good answer is forthcoming, we tend to go our own way.

Therefore, a "church" of atheism won't work very well. Because, as in any group setting, hierarchies will begin to form. People will separate into social cliques. People will seek power and leadership roles. Pretty soon, we really WILL be a chuirch with someone telling us what to do and what to believe - you're not a REAL atheist if you don't listen to the high priest. Things like evolution will become atheism's dogma and science will become atheism's god. That's what happens when you get a lot of peolple together.

And while I do agree that atheism needs to become a powerful political force - there are more of us than you think, but many are still hiding - and perhaps some sort of political organization could be created for the sake of activism. But a church? I think most atheists would turn up their noses at even the implication.

Hi' Shirina. Long time no 'see'. I agree with you. We already have athiest 'churches' in the UK. They are called pubs, social clubs, etc where friends get together and talk. The leader is usually the one who buys the first round of drinks. Of course the leadership changes hands when a second round is due Laughing Why bother with other places?

Of course it may be different in the States.






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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Fri May 30, 2014 10:39 pm

stuart torr wrote:PG, as you know I do not believe in a creator, I believe life came about through abiogenesis, which to myself seems to be the only viable option. There are so many additions to the bible and Genesis itself is a pack of lies, you can pick so many holes in the bible that to pick them out would take all week.

Ooo. I don't quite think that's true. To us it is wrong. But then 3000 years in the future we know differently. To those who wrote it, it was their only way of explaining the unexplainable. If Genesis is a pack of lies then we must say the same of the sources from which Genesis took its 'information'. Earlier civilisations like the Sumerian, for one. And the 'holes' are often the way you read the Bible. Are you a Hebrew living in the 1st century? Have you an Eastern mind that can understand Eastern thinking? I've already said on another thread about good and evil. The western good v evil. The eastern good and evil interacting, interconnected, complementary. In reading the Tanakh you are reading a book meant for Jews, written by Jews. If it weren't for Christianity 'adjusting' the Tanakh teaching you would probably never had read it. It would have remained with the Jews.
Of course it's not perfect, and much of it is allegorical, apochryphal. Some is discussion on different subjects (Job - why do the righteous suffer). A subject discussed even before the Book of Job and since.
The Tanakh/OT is worth reading. Like a crossword, if you can solve the clues you get the answer. And I love crosswords.  Basketball 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Fri May 30, 2014 11:30 pm

Well Trevor, you do the crossword and when you have completed it get back to me. IMHO Genesis is still a pack of lies like most of the Bible, which was written by man, long after the events of this hypothetical beings took place.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat May 31, 2014 9:27 am

stuart torr wrote:Well Trevor, you do the crossword and when you have completed it get back to me. IMHO Genesis is still a pack of lies like most of the Bible, which was written by man, long after the events of this hypothetical beings took place.

Before I go any further let me state I am agnostic.

Now. I agree the Bible was written by man. I don't agree that Genesis is a pack of lies. It was what they believed true at the time. We know differently now over a space of 3000 years. Using your thinking we would have to say that much early science was a pack of lies but that is not so. What may have been postulated then was truly believed. We know differently now because we have moved on. A lie is something 'told' known to be untrue, but that is not the case here.
Genesis only tells us what was believed then. We know differently now.
As to the hypothetical beings.
If we are talking of Adam and Eve and Noah then these are mythical beings 'translated' from earlier myths. Again to explain events they didn't understand.
From there on we have a story built up which gives Judaism a history. I agree that it is a story which gives an intro into the formation of the Jewish nation. You are right that this almost certainly only a story. However, remember that you were never intended to read it. It was for the Jews to accept or deny. Christianity brought it to your attention when they appropriated parts of it. For a couple of centuries after Jesus Christianity was looked on as a Jewish Sect.
Some of the Tanakh is historically true, some not. Some poetry, prose and theological discourse. Some very wise words from 'Solomon', and some 'prophetical' books, most of which are probably historical and not prophetical.

My previous post was about the creation, flood and 'sons of god' (Nephilim) stories which I wrongly thought were on your mind from your post.

Incidentally, if you're from Nottingham, England, I live just across the county border in Linolnshire.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat May 31, 2014 12:37 pm

Hi Trevor,
Well as an atheist you will know that I find the whole idea of god/jesus totally hypothetical, and the bible is just a book of stories used as a comfort blanket by theists to make them feel good. Using Noah and his flood as an example, how on earth do you think that this supposed creator managed to help NOAH to get a boat big enough for all the animals of the world 2x2 to fit in? also how did he manage to travel round the world to get these animals? also who cre
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat May 31, 2014 12:40 pm

Trevor sorry pressed send by mistake.
also who created the creator Very Happy 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat May 31, 2014 1:59 pm

My position is this. I believe a man named Jesus existed. An itinerant preacher who had some unusual things to say. (I do not believe in the miraculous). I believe this because of the references to a 'Jesus', 'Christus' who was crucified. Some are debatable, others I find convincing. But that is my opinion.

The Epic of Gilgamesh has a strikingly similar story in almost all details to that of the Bibles' Noah. And, despite what Christians say, the Epic came first. To go into the reasons I say that would take time and a Biblical history lesson, so I leave it.

Flood stories abound throughout civilisation and we know that there have been catastophic floods in Mesopotamia. Even today they have them.

The Epic of Gilgamesh is a series of stories made up about a real king of Uruk. This we know. But these are stories to give meaning to the world of creation and events.
Noah did not exist. The only ark we can be fairly sure of is the Ark of the Covenant which disappeared. It is recorded in the part of the Bible which is fairly accurate - the age of the kings of Israel.

We know the Israelites were in Palestine in the age of the Kings by archaeological finds, documents and confirmation on palace walls, etc found by the archaeologists.
We know that the northern kingdom of Israel was taken by the Assyrians, the people dispersed - never to return. The southern kingdom of Judah was taken by the Babylonians, the people into Babylon/ia. When Cyrus the Persian took over the Babylonian Empire he allowed many captives to return to Palestine. They remained there until there dispersal by the Romans in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE.

I find the Tanakh in particular fascinating because it leads into, and talks about, early cultures and civilisations. If you study the food and health laws of the Jews of the time, they were the same as many other cultures followed, usually for good reason. No eating pork which often carried disease/worms from grovelling in the dirt. Discernment of leprosy rules etc. Today we have medicines, they didn't.

Whoa. I'm rambling again. Sorry.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat May 31, 2014 3:24 pm

Trevor
never worry about rambling as I guessed what I was in for so to speak when I SAW YOUR POST, Laughing
I use to have long discussions with a theist, as to his belief and what made him feel that way, and he asked myself questions as to why I was an atheist.
One question you didn't answer in your ramble, was who created the creator? Jesus by any other name, as he has been given many names by many religions has he not, all we know for sure is that there was a preacher around in those times claiming to be the son of this unseen hypothetical creator. So what was he suffering from?
Some kind of brain disorder? as this Jesus would not have seen god the unseen creator now would he? but the Romans knew how to deal with madmen in their day did they not, yep they crucified them. Sad . Was it not under jewish religious law not to eat pink meat? not because it had been grovelling around in dirt? pink meat often meant it was under cooked.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat May 31, 2014 4:15 pm

stuart torr wrote:Trevor
never worry about rambling as I guessed what I was in for so to speak when I SAW YOUR POST, Laughing
I use to have long discussions with a theist, as to his belief and what made him feel that way, and he asked myself questions as to why I was an atheist.
One question you didn't answer in your ramble, was who created the creator? Jesus by any other name, as he has been given many names by many religions has he not, all we know for sure is that there was a preacher around in those times claiming to be the son of this unseen hypothetical creator. So what was he suffering from?
Some kind of brain disorder? as this Jesus would not have seen god the unseen creator now would he? but the Romans knew how to deal with madmen in their day did they not, yep they crucified them. Sad . Was it not under jewish religious law not to eat pink meat? not because it had been grovelling around in dirt? pink meat often meant it was under cooked.

Is there a creator?

Pigs were forbidden Leviticus 11. 7. And the pig, because it has a cloven hoof that is completely split, but will not regurgitate its cud; it is unclean for you.
8. You shall not eat of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

I don't think Jesus was 'suffering' from anything. I think he was trying to bring Israel back to their God, as any good preacher should do.
Jesus came to the Jews. He was seemingly highly knowledgeable about the Tanakh. He spoke to them in a way that they, as Jews, would understand. He never went to the gentiles though when they came to him he didn't turn them away. Christianity has interpreted what he said and formed Christianity. The Jews do not recognise the Christian doctrine. What did Jesus really say? We have words written by unknown writers. What we have are some wise sayings, but how accurate are his quoted sayings?
Did the Romans consider Jesus a threat? I can't see why they should. He never threatened them, kept within their laws. Was it to appease the Priesthood? After all, Pilate had chosen the High Priest. There are different reasons given as to why Jesus was crucified. At this distance in time, and not knowing the prevailing conditions it's hard to say IMO.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat May 31, 2014 6:32 pm

Hi Trevor.
Now Jesus being the son of Mary and the holy spirit? not god this unseen being? was the chosen one was he not? "trying to bring Israel back to their God" who was Israel's God? to them he was the creator, as with all religions just about they class jesus as Gods son, I should rephrase that and make it western religions. So god comes into it everywhere and he is supposed to be the creator of mankind, made the world and all living things in the first 6 days and on the 7th he rested. Pretty good stuff all that for this omnipotent being that no-one has ever seen except adam and eve of course. Laughing Also as you say, what did jesus actually say? the theists only have the quoted sayings, but on the religion forum get a theist to admit that and you may win a Nobel prize  Like a Star @ heaven
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat May 31, 2014 8:14 pm

stuart torr wrote:Hi Trevor.
Now Jesus being the son of Mary and the holy spirit? not god this unseen being? was the chosen one was he not? "trying to bring Israel back  to their God" who was Israel's God? to them he was the creator, as with all religions just about they class jesus as Gods son, I should rephrase that and make it western religions. So god comes into it everywhere and he is supposed to be the creator of mankind, made the world and all living things in the first 6 days and on the 7th he rested. Pretty good stuff all that for this omnipotent being that no-one has ever seen except adam and eve of course. Laughing Also as you say, what did jesus actually say? the theists only have the quoted sayings, but on the religion forum get a theist to admit that and you may win a Nobel prize  Like a Star @ heaven

I ought to have said this at the beginning but on other threads people know it.

I do not necessarily believe in everything I say. I usually comment on what the Bible is saying - whether I believe it or not. And if I do believe, I say so. The Bible tells us that Jesus, as a good Jew, did believe in Jahweh. He had been bought up, like all Jewish boys, to read and learn the Tanakh by the age of 12-13. That's why the Bible tells us that he confounded the teachers in the Temple. He had reached his BarMitvah and was now an adult under Jewish 'law'. This meant he could take part in reading in the Synagogue and discuss with older teachers and Rabbis. (Although the term Rabbi was not actually used till later than Jesus time). Jewish boys were not illiterate as some would have us believe.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat May 31, 2014 10:06 pm

Trevor, why do you not believe in everything you say? that is like saying what you say is not true. thumbsdown So you comment on the bible whether that is true or not, but if you do believe what it says you say so. Now that if I may say so is a typical agnostic position. My position is I will badger posters until they give a straight answer to a straight question, sarcasm So from now on Trevor for our discussions, can you please say only what you believe to be correct? so jesus by the age of 12-13 already circumcised then? was considered an adult under jewish law, so could take part in reading the Synagogue and discuss with older teachers and persons that were going to be called rabbis. I've never said jewish boys were illiterate at any time? Still missing the answer to the questions, a) who was the israels god? b) in all bibles there is a creator who creates the world and all life in it in the first 6 days and on the 7th he rests, who is that creator if not god, this hypothetical unseen omnipotent all powerful father of jesus?
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sat May 31, 2014 10:09 pm

Trevor got daughter over for access visit tomorrow, so any post will not be answered until later in the day ok.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sat May 31, 2014 11:31 pm

stuart torr wrote:Trevor, why do you not believe in everything you say? that is like saying what you say is not true. thumbsdown So you comment on the bible whether that is true or not, but if you do believe what it says you say so. Now that if I may say so is a typical agnostic position. My position is I will badger posters until they give a straight answer to a straight question, sarcasm So from now on Trevor for our discussions, can you please say only what you believe to be correct? so jesus by the age of 12-13 already circumcised then? was considered an adult under jewish law, so could take part in reading the Synagogue and discuss with older teachers and persons that were going to be called rabbis. I've never said jewish boys were illiterate at any time? Still missing the answer to the questions, a) who was the israels god? b) in all bibles there is a creator who creates the world and all life in it in the first 6 days and on the 7th he rests, who is that creator if not god, this hypothetical unseen omnipotent all powerful father of jesus?  

Then we have a problem. I don't know if there is a god, but the Bible and the Jews in the Tanakh certainly do.
Who was Israels god? Simply - they believe Jahweh. But it's more complicated than that. And too much for a late night post.
Jesus was circumcised as a baby.
Jesus was an adult with the rights of an adult 13.
According to the Bible
this hypothetical unseen omnipotent all powerful father of jesus? is a spiritual being. 'God is a spirit and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I was once a Christian but lost my faith through studying the Bible, the culture and background on which it was written and the comparison between Judaisms religion and that of other Mesopotamian c ultures.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:26 pm

Hi Trevor.
I do hope we have not got a problem, as I was enjoying our chats/discussions. It was just that I could not get my head round what you said yesterday, hence my post to you. Just your term that you do not believe everything you say? That is the term that I could not fully understand. I think that quite a few people have lost their faith through studying the bible, yet a lot more will say that it has strengthened their belief. You are a totally different agnostic to the one on the religion forum Trevor, as the one on the religion forum uses that as an excuse just to be argumentative, and that is a shame for all agnostics everywhere. I'm sorry if you don't want to chat anymore as I was just getting into the swing of things again.
please take care if you have no wish to chat, fingers crossed that you do.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:50 pm

stuart torr wrote:Hi Trevor.
I do hope we have not got a problem, as I was enjoying our chats/discussions. It was just that I could not get my head round what you said yesterday, hence my post to you. Just your term that you do not believe everything you say? That is the term that I could not fully understand. I think that quite a few people have lost their faith through studying the bible, yet a lot more will say that it has strengthened their belief. You are a totally different agnostic to the one on the religion forum Trevor, as the one on the religion forum uses that as an excuse just to be argumentative, and that is a shame for all agnostics everywhere. I'm sorry if you don't want to chat anymore as I was just getting into the swing of things again.
please take care if you have no wish to chat, fingers crossed that you do.

Hope you had a good day. Been through it myself.

I'm quite happy to chat, but as you say my motives are different to most to a/ Christians
b/ Atheists/agnostics

I've been on many religious sites over the years as a Christian and later as an agnostic. I've spent many years studying the Bible and I've spent years studying the background to the Bible, the civilisations, cultures, archaeology concerning the Bible and ancient codes. If you put all these things together you can see that the Bible inter-relates in many ways with the surrounding nations. Take the 10 commandments. Apart from Monotheism, the rest were already being practised in the codes of nations around in one way or another. Even Monotheism had been tried by Akhenaten in Egypt while he lived.
We mentioned the creation story. Christian literalists believe it. Atheists/agnostics say its just rubbish and lies. Actually its neither. It's simply the way that the writers tried to understand and put into words their ideas of creation from what they could see. They weren't telling lies, they believed it. Of course to us today, 3000 years later they were wrong in many ways though some things they got right. Ie. they realised that the world could not have come into existence all at once from their own experiences, so they divided (the Bible) it into 7 'days'.
I try to point this out to atheists/agnostics as well as telling literalist Christians their interpretation is also wrong.

Trying to interpret the Tanakh with western minds doesn't work unless you understand the eastern mind. A point I made on the other thread. If you were/are a Jew you understand what the Tanakh is saying. If you are not you can be led astray.
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject. Understanding another culture in which you have never participated is difficult.

Well, that's my way of thinking. Christianity has tried to do that and it is a mixture of Judaeo/christian/ heathen practises.

Still, that's only my thoughts.



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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Tosh on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:15 pm

Hello Trevor, are you agnostic about all gods or just one god?

I am agnostic about the actual existence of Jesus, a fairly new position, this discussion is very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EulhS8EkJk

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:34 pm

Hi Trevor.
Glad you are back, sorry to hear you have been through it, hope things are better at the moment. I've had a good day always is on sundays, as that is my access visit time with my daughter.
As you say that understanding another culture that you have never participated is difficult, twice as much for myself then as I have not studied the eastern mind/religion. I will do my best, scratch
You have done an awful lot of studying Trevor, which will put what is left of my mind into shadow I'm afraid.
The 10 commandments Trevor, they are still being practiced now by a few religions are they not? and they will be as long as religion exists, I'm sure you will agree with me on that one, so that is one part of the bible that is also in the Tanakh? yes or no?
Back to creation, now one presumes that the Tanakh and the Jewish people believe in the 7 day creation of earth? as that is where we get the day of rest from, our Sabbath day when the Christians go to church, and other religions too.
Please do not spare me Trevor, point out any mistakes I have made as that is what discussions are for in one sense, ie learning.
take care stu.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:42 pm

Tosh wrote:Hello Trevor, are you agnostic about all gods or just one god?

I am agnostic about the actual existence of Jesus, a fairly new position, this discussion is very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EulhS8EkJk


All gods. However I am convinced in my own mind that Jesus existed - as an itinerant preacher of some importance for his own time.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:05 pm

stuart torr wrote:As you say that understanding another culture that you have never participated is difficult, twice as much for myself then as I have not studied the eastern mind/religion. I will do my best, scratch
You have done an awful lot of studying Trevor, which will put what is left of my mind into shadow I'm afraid.
The 10 commandments Trevor, they are still being practiced now by a few religions are they not? and they will be as long as religion exists, I'm sure you will agree with me on that one, so that is one part of the bible that is also in the Tanakh? yes or no?
Back to creation, now one presumes that the Tanakh and the Jewish people believe in the 7 day creation of earth? as that is where we get the day of rest from, our Sabbath day when the Christians go to church, and other religions too.
 
Sorry. I have a habit of using the term 'Tanakh'. That is what the Jews call the Old Testament . A word made up of the 3 sections of the Old Testament .  Torah - Nevi-im - Kethuvim
Torah - the law
Nevi-im - the prophets
Kethuvim - the writings.
 
So the 10 commandments are in the Abramic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam in one shape or form.
The 7 day creation of earth is what the ancient Jews thought. Other ancient religions agreed that creation was in stages. Not necessarily 7 days. The day of rest comes from the Bibles account of God giving the 10 commandments.
Jews and Christians believe that the 10 Commandments were new when God gave them but in reality they were already in practise in other nations/civilisations of the time.
Please remember I am commenting on what the Bible says.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Tosh on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:31 pm

Trevor,

One thing has always bothered me, in the absence of divine revelation,what was the motive of Saul?

As the earliest source, how do we know he just did not invent the revelation and invent the mythical figure?
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Tosh on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:56 pm

Trevor, listen from 47.00.....there was a spiritual arch angel called Jesus that predates Paul.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:31 pm

Tosh wrote:Trevor,

One thing has always bothered me, in the absence of divine revelation,what was the motive of Saul?

As the earliest source, how do we know he just did not invent the revelation and invent the mythical figure?

A good point. What would be his motive? He was a Jew with Roman free citizenship, not bought. He was a rising star in the Pharisaic movement, good enough to be tutored by the best teacher, Gamaliel, who himself was an important and highly respected man. If we accept Saul was all of this, why would he throw it all up for the unknown. He would be an outcast. In fact, after his conversion he disappears for 14 years into the reaches of Asia Minor. It's that long before he appears on the scene again.
The other thing, of course, is that Saul refers to Jesus actions in his letters. The Last Supper. And the references to the Messiah from the OT. In the Epistles he wrote there is the indication that he really believes his 'revelation' was from Jesus.
Perhaps a relevant question would be - why does a normal man in the street become a Christian? Or a criminal genuinely turn to Jesus.

I think there are enough reference in documents to convince me that Jesus existed. I don't know that he was the Christ as Saul believed. I know that some references to Jesus are suspect but others are acceptable. Have you read the letters between Pliny and Trajan - Pliny asking Trajan how to deal with Christians, and Trajans reply.

'They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

Many religions start with a 'vision', message from a god etc.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Tosh on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:55 pm

One has to be careful about believing all of Paul's works were by him, some were certainly not, the mention of a last supper does not prove Jesus existed.

Anyway back to motive, let us assume Saul had some form of seizure causing him to hallucinate and suffer temporary blindness, do you thin his conscience created such an elaborate epiphany?

I don't accept early Christians were persecuted by the Jews, he was not a full blown God until the end of the century, so I don't believe Saul felt guilt nor had an epiphany of sorts.

I think he had a vision of the archangel Jesus and Mark personified the revelation....maybe.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:12 pm

Tosh wrote:Trevor, listen from 47.00.....there was a spiritual arch angel called Jesus that predates Paul.

Theology has many names for many angels which we never hear of unless we look. However Jesus is not one of them - at least not under that name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_theological_angels#J
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Tosh on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:19 pm

Trevor not according to 48.00 on the video.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:32 am

Well Trevor it looks like you have a more educated poster to chat to now, so I will leave you to it, if you still want me to chat let me know, but my knowledge is not so great these days my friend, take care.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:48 am

stuart torr wrote:Well Trevor it looks like you have a more educated poster to chat to now, so I will leave you to it, if you still want me to chat let me know, but my knowledge is not so great these days my friend, take care.

Stuart. I am happy to chat with you. My chat with Tosh need not interfere with our chat. I learnt by asking questions of those who knew. And I am still asking questions of more knowledgeable people than myself.

Please continue.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:27 am

Tosh wrote:Trevor not according to 48.00 on the video.

Yes. He mentions that Philo's theology includes Jesus, an archangel, who was the Logos, High Priest and son of God, yet not historical.
What he doesn't mention is that Philo also applies the same thinking/theology later on - to Melchizedek.

I've come across this but the whole matter is very complicated. Philo is talking in more mystical terms. Take Hebrews 3.1 The writer could be said to be using the same theology as Philo but later on writes about Jesus shedding his blood and dying. Now angels, as far as I know, do not die.
That the writers of the Epistles accepted the historical Jesus is obvious when they talk about Jesus, born of a woman. Gal. 4:4

There are many refutations of Carriers 'Theology', and many agreeing. Pay your money. Take your choice.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:16 pm

Hi Trevor.
I am glad you still want to chat honestly I am, as this gives me more to learn and is more of a pleasure than the other forum which as turned into the unprintable.
I'm glad you explained the word Tanakh to me as I could not find it anywhere, Laughing So that is the law, the prophets and the writings. So could you explain to me please what those three words mean separately, and ie law? is it the law of the country? or of god? so you have a clearer meaning of what I am asking. Before we go any further Trevor nobody ever prints my full name mate, my names Stu to everyone on any site it was just a fault with this sites mechanics that I had to print it out in full ok.
What always gets me Trevor and I know it does not you, is believers referring to Jesus as god too, why is this when they know he's is son? to myself when writing or speaking there are often mix ups because of this.
If the believers are then waiting for the second coming of their god, then surely he has been and been crucified? that's how I see things anyway Trevor.
best regards stu.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:41 pm

It is not a case of paying your money etc; it is considering the actual facts.

If you take life as just a result of any one of the theories put forward, put simply, a set of chain reactions, then just what is the point of any kind of life?.

Every animal other than humans comply to the way of life the creator decided for them, only humans have such a vast choice in every respect.

No matter how, or why, intelligence far beyond our present understanding is involved in the creation of both plant and animal life.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:18 pm

And what are the FACTS Polyglide?
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:20 pm

Not strictly true PG, as not every animal on earth can always get plentiful supply of food and water can they? is that the way your creator would have wanted them to die? this applies to humans also, dehydration and starvation in the third world countries. They do not have the luxuries of the lovely western world do they?
please try and think straight PG.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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