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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

The Gnostic wing of Christianity, if it can even be called that today, has quite a few differences to Christianity and Catholicism.

If the old Gnostic Christians were here, they would hardly recognize what has happened to the original Orthodox Catholic Church or it's various offshoots in Protestantism or Islam. The Gnostic Christian Jesus would have a fit and would be quite disappointed I think. I know that this Gnostic Christian is.

The two main differences that moved the old Christians to kill Gnostic Christians and burn their scriptures was literalism in reading scriptures and the fact that the Gnostic version of Jesus was a Universalist.

That Gnostic Christian Jesus, and the Gnostic Christians of that flavor, (there are likely as many Gnostic sects as Christian sects), sees a spark of God in all people including women and gays. That fact, to me, makes Gnostic Christianity a more desirable denomination of Christianity than all the rest.

If a religion cannot abide with equality of the sexes then to my mind it is not a just religion and is not worthy of the support of moral people. Inequality is an immoral position and most of the Abrahamic cults are of that immoral persuasion.

As the superior Catholic theology, it is my hope that Gnostic Christianity will eventually bury the non-egalitarian and immoral Christian cults as their members recognize that equality is the right moral system for all to live under.

If you have investigated Gnostic Christianity, do you agree that from a moral POV, they are the superior Christian theology thanks to equality and Universalism?

Regards
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:20 pm

Not strictly true PG, as not every animal on earth can always get plentiful supply of food and water can they? is that the way your creator would have wanted them to die? this applies to humans also, dehydration and starvation in the third world countries. They do not have the luxuries of the lovely western world do they?
please try and think straight PG.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:00 pm

stuart torr wrote:Hi Trevor.
I am glad you still want to chat honestly I am, as this gives me more to learn and is more of a pleasure than the other forum which as turned into the unprintable.
I'm glad you explained the word Tanakh to me as I could not find it anywhere, Laughing So that is the law, the prophets and the writings. So could you explain to me please what those three words mean separately, and ie law? is it the law of the country? or of god? so you have a clearer meaning of what I am asking. Before we go any further Trevor nobody ever prints my full name mate, my names Stu to everyone on any site it was just a fault with this sites mechanics that I had to print it out in full ok.
What always gets me Trevor and I know it does not you, is believers referring to Jesus as god too, why is this when they know he's is son? to myself when writing or speaking there are often mix ups because of this.
If the believers are then waiting for the second coming of their god, then surely he has been and been crucified? that's how I see things anyway Trevor.
best regards stu.

The Tanakh, or Old Testament of the Bible, is actually the original Jewish Scriptures. They were in existence long before Christianity came into being.
Judaism divides the Tanakh into the 3 parts I mentioned.

Torah. The Law (supposedly written by Moses under God's guidance). It's the first 5 books of the OT (Old Testament). Often called the Pentateuch (5 books).
Nevi-im. The prophets. This includes books that the Christians would not call prophetical, Joshua, Kings etc.
Ketuvim. The writings. This includes books like Psalms, Job, Ruth and even Daniel, which Christians would call prophetical.

Try this to help. Some of the words (names) I printed vary slightly to those on the web. This is due to the Hebrew language.

The law. In very general terms this is what is written in the first 5 books as to how the Jews should live. The 10 commandments, religious ritual, health regulations, food and clothing permitted, marriages allowed, and property laws etc.

The second coming!

Jews and Christians have different views on this.

To the Jews Jesus was not the Messiah they expected from the Tanakh teaching. They expected someone who would rally the Jews and set them free, physically. Jesus didn't, so they rejected him and had him crucified. They await their Messiah still. (It must be said that there are Jews today (Messianic Jews) who do accept Jesus as their Messiah). These are in a minority. And it's also reckoned that today many Jews don't believe in God at all.
The Second coming is a Christian Doctrine. They believe that Jesus was the Messiah forecast in the Old Testament because they put their own interpretation on primarily Jews Scriptures. To them Jesus fulfilled the Jewish practise of sacrifice on Passover day, by dying in their place for their sins against God. By rising again he showed that death is not the end for those who believe in him. They believe he will come again a Second time and take those who believe in him to 'heaven'.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:03 pm

Ooops forgot to give you a link   Try this to help. http://www.biblebell.org/bible/HebOT.html
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:19 pm

Thanks Trevor.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:47 pm

Hi Trevor.
Apologies for being so long with my reply, but I was doing a bit of studying myself, great to get away from the other forum and have a chat about something interesting.
The ten commandments use to be read out daily did they not, during the period of the second temple, before the reading of the Shema Yisrael. But now it is only three times per year. Was this all due to the ancient parchment that only had the ten commandments on it and not the whole Torah?
So why is/was the Torah so important to the Rabbi's or Jewish followers then that has lasted so long Trevor?
Also in the Jewish bible Trevor, the ten commandments are in there twice, whereas in the Christian version I'm pretty sure that they are in only once. Does that mean that the two versions in the Jewish bible of the ten commandments are different from each other? sorry for more questions Trevor, but more information I get the more I ask. thumbsup 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:39 pm

stuart torr wrote:Hi Trevor.
Apologies for being so long with my reply, but I was doing a bit of studying myself, great to get away from the other forum and have a chat about something interesting.
The ten commandments use to be read out daily did they not, during the period of the second temple, before the reading of the Shema  Yisrael. But now it is only three times per year. Was this all due to the ancient parchment that only had the ten commandments on it and not the whole Torah?
So why is/was the Torah so important to the Rabbi's or Jewish followers then that has lasted so long Trevor?
Also in the Jewish bible Trevor, the ten commandments are in there twice, whereas in the Christian version I'm pretty sure that they are in only once. Does that mean that the two versions in the Jewish bible of the ten commandments are different from each other? sorry for more questions Trevor, but more information I get the more I ask. thumbsup 

True. But the Temple no longer exists, nor do sacrifices etc.
I don't think it had anything to do with - I presume you are talking of the Nash Papyrus - this piece of paper. This was presumed to be part of a liturgy.
Daily readings of the 10 commandments was halted because many Jewish elders believed that in doing so 'heretics' (non-Jews mainly) would say that the 10 commandments were more important than the rest of the Torah which was not read daily, and this was not true. Actually the practice still went on in places. That's it simply.

Why so long? To them it's Gods word. The same as the Bible to many Christians.

Both the Tanakh and the Old Testament contain 2 slightly different 10 commandments. Incidentally the Hebrew, in which the first Tanakh was written, does not refer to the 10 commandments, but the Hebrew words translate as 'the 10 sayings' or '10 statements'. We use the words 10 commandments.
These 2 slightly different variations were given at different times. The first at Sinai - this is usually referred to as the Ritual decalogue. It underlines the way they must live. That of Deuteronomy 5 is often referred to as the Ethical decalogue. It reminds them first of what God has done for them, and what he expects from them. Again I've kept it simple - not to insult your intelligence - but to save getting complicated.

Religious Jewish men would wear Tefillin (Phylacteries). These were small black boxes containing certain verses from Exodus and Deuteronomy, and prompted by the instruction in Deut. 6:5-8. One on the forehead and the other on an arm. Both tied on in a particular way. Most ordinary people did not take that instruction literally.
These were to remind them, 6 days a week, of God. On Sunday they left them off because it was felt that going to the synagogue would remind them of God. Very Happy 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:53 am

Hi Trevor.
So that is why they are read three times a year now, the first time late January/February which is from Exodus 20:2-14 which is the Parashat Yitro, the second late august/September from Deuteronomy 5:6-18 which is the Parashat Va'etchanan, now which one is read the third time Trevor to celebrate is it the Shavout? I see my Deuteronomy numbers are different to yours yet they were supposed to be taken from the Jewish bible. Laughing. When is the Shavout Trevor, if I have the name right, is that around xmas?
It would almost be a relief to go to the synagogue to take those boxes off would it not?
I was talking of the Nash papyrus which is kept in a museum is it not, and supposed to date back to I believe around 150bc but I'm not sure.
I'm learning some you see Trevor slowly but surely, which is good for myself as an atheist then it helps me see both sides of any debate that crops up without it breaking into an argument like on the other forum. Laughing 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:28 am

stuart torr wrote:Hi Trevor.
So that is why they are read three times a year now, the first time late January/February which is from Exodus 20:2-14 which is the Parashat Yitro,  the second late august/September from Deuteronomy 5:6-18 which is the Parashat Va'etchanan, now which one is read the third time Trevor to celebrate is it the Shavout? I see my Deuteronomy numbers are different to yours yet they were supposed to be taken from the Jewish bible. Laughing. When is the Shavout Trevor, if I have the name right, is that around xmas?
It would almost be a relief to go to the synagogue to take those boxes off would it not?
I was talking of the Nash papyrus which is kept in a museum is it not, and supposed to date back to I believe around 150bc but I'm not sure.
I'm learning some you see Trevor slowly but surely, which is good for myself as an atheist then it helps me see both sides of any debate that crops up without it breaking into an argument like on the other forum. Laughing 


Shavout. In June. Originally a harvest festival but later also associated with the giving of 10 commandments at Sinai. Remembering our seasons are different to Israels and they really have only 2 main seasons - Summer and Winter. Even the Bible doesn't mention Spring and Autumn as such as far as I can remember.

Your numbers were probably right. I should have posted Deut. 5
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:35 am

Work to do. Back after studytime. Crying or Very sad 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:47 am

Hi Trev.
Are you ok today? your post hasn't got it's usual style or friendliness about it, and you didn't answer all my questions like you normally do.
I'm not trying to show you up or anything like that, I just thought that a bit of studying on my part would help me understand our chats more, if you are not well take care.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:46 am

Are you ok today? your post hasn't got it's usual style or friendliness about it, and you didn't answer all my questions like you normally do.
I'm not trying to show you up or anything like that, I just thought that a bit of studying on my part would help me understand our chats more, if you are not well take care.
 
No problem. I am fitting in my visits to the internet with studying and other work. Studying is a good idea to understand others views and to be able to converse with them. Keep it up. One question you asked me made me stop and think hard. Very Happy
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:53 am

Oh I understand now, I will do a bit more studying myself then Trev, ready for your comeback. Laughing 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:42 pm

Hi Trev.
Well I've started it again now, just popped back on the old forum only for one poster saying how much trouble the churches have with the JEWS.
So I put my two penneth in from what I've learnt, let's see what he says to that. Laughing 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:52 pm

stuart torr wrote:Hi Trev.
Well I've started it again now, just popped back on the old forum only for one poster saying how much trouble the churches have with the JEWS.
So I put my two penneth in from what I've learnt, let's see what he says to that. Laughing 

That's interesting. Perhaps you should point out how much trouble the Jews have had from the Christian West down the centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:09 pm

Wow Trev.
the anti-semetism has been really bad down the years hasn't it?
If I were that race of people that could almost be taken as racism could it not.?
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:25 pm

stuart torr wrote:Wow Trev.
the anti-semetism has been really bad down the years hasn't it?
If I were that race of people that could almost be taken as racism could it not.?

I think it's a little bit difficult to differentiate between racism and religious hate. Jews were hated by Christians because they killed Jesus, the Christian Messiah. Another thing about the Jews is the ability of many to control finance and be rich enough to influence even a country's politics. This does not endear them to many people. Racism, IMO, relates to cultural dislike rather than religious.
AntiSemetism is really a misnomer - a term created in the 1800's. The Jews are only one part of the family of Semites which includes other peoples/nations related to them in the distant past.

Bedtime now. Have a good night.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by boatlady on Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:09 am

Anti-semitism can also be read as hatred and fear of people of the Muslim faith - Islam having arisen among the semite people - fortunately, no-one today indulges in this sarcasm sarcasm
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:16 pm

A touch of sarcasm there boatlady  Laughing it mainly occurs in the western world too does it not?
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:32 pm

We can all beg to differ and there is nothing wrong in that, however, ultimately, if there are direct conflicts of opinion then only one can be correct.

Much is made of the so called differences in the Bible, however, if the Bible was intended to deceive, then those implicated would have made the contents compatable in all respects so that you could not dispute the contents on the grounds presently used by some.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Ivan on Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:39 pm

Just a polite reminder that this thread is supposed to be about Gnostic Christianity:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism
 
If you want to debate ‘evidence’ about Jesus, Paul or God, this might be a more appropriate place to do so:-
http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t990-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god-part-2
 
Anti-semitism can be discussed here:-
http://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t575-to-hate-jews-is-to-hate-god
 
Members are requested to note:-
1. If you’re answering the most recent message on a thread, it isn’t necessary to re-post it.
2. Private conversations should be conducted via the personal messaging system.
 
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:50 pm

Hi Trev.
Why on this earth do the Christians carry on their anti-Semitic views even to this day? I mean how long has it been since their messiah died?
To myself it is ridiculous but that is just my opinion. now if you have had the message from Ivan as I have then we have to find a new thread to discuss on Trev, if you find the appropriate one let me know then I shall reply to your post ok.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:53 pm

polyglide wrote:We can all beg to differ and there is nothing wrong in that, however, ultimately, if there are direct conflicts of opinion then only one can be correct.

Much is made of the so called differences in the Bible, however, if the Bible was intended to deceive, then those implicated would have  made the contents compatable in all respects so that you could not dispute the contents on the grounds presently used by some.
First para: two people could be arguing and both could be wrong.
Second para: could you put that into plain English?
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:01 pm

When you are in a dispute it is usually accepted that one is right and one is wrong, at least to any sensible person.

Many use the fact that several contents of the Bible appear to conflict with each other and this is used as an excuse to decry it.


Any sensible person would not dispute anything with only two possible answers.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:03 pm

Sorry, dispute anything with more than.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:05 pm

polyglide wrote:When you are in a dispute it is usually accepted that one is right and one is wrong, at least to any sensible person.

Many use the fact that several contents of the Bible appear to conflict with each other and this is used as an excuse to decry it.


Any sensible person would not dispute anything with only two possible answers.
A good example would be two theists arguing over the nature of god. They would disagree but, since god doesn't exist, they would both be wrong in any case.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:14 pm

You are assuming, wrongly, that their is no God.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:20 pm

It was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. There's no real way of knowing if god exists but my point still stands in that, if god doesn't exist, they could both be wrong in having a particular view about him. I do assume he doesn't exist however and you certainly don't come close to providing any arguments to convince me otherwise. You frequently make stuff up as well.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by polyglide on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:38 pm

Now, Now, Dan, I do not make things up, I do make mistakes but believing in God is not one of them.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dan Fante on Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:44 pm

polyglide wrote:Now, Now, Dan, I do not make things up, I do make mistakes but believing in God is not one of them.
An example of you making things up would be your insistence that the theory of evolution dictates that all snowflakes would be identical.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:44 pm

To keep it on track. I have investigated Gnostic Christianity, and rejected it.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by stuart torr on Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:34 pm

Hi Trev.
Our other discussion will have to move to a different thread then, due to our gentle warning from Ivan, or he will make sure our conversation is not printed ok.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by trevorw2539 on Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:23 pm

stuart torr wrote:Hi Trev.
Our other discussion will have to move to a different thread then, due to our gentle warning from Ivan, or he will make sure our conversation is not printed ok.

On 'the evidence for the existence of God'.
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Jesus is the way and that way is the Gnostic Christian way. Not Christianity’s way.

Post by Greatest I am on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:07 am

Jesus is the way and that way is the Gnostic Christian way. Not Christianity’s way.

Isaiah 56:11) "They are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for the day of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORD occupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9) & (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between the righteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

The Luke and Mark quotes are referring to the following.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

For an extended view of that from my favorite philosopher. ----



You will note that the bible teaches Jesus’ way and Gnostic Christianity follows that good way, yet the church never teaches Jesus’ true way.

Why is Christianity ignoring and even hiding the only worthy Jesus and the teachings of his way?

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:39 pm

polyglide wrote:When you are in a dispute it is usually accepted that one is right and one is wrong, at least to any sensible person.

This is simply not true, as both positions could be wrong of course, and a dispute need not be limited to just two positions anyway. People usually try to limit a discussion to just two mutually exclusive positions to disingenuously favour their own opinion over a straw man argument they have created, or they are oversimplifying a complex position they have failed to properly grasp.

polyglide wrote:Many use the fact that several contents of the Bible appear to conflict with each other and this is used as an excuse to decry it.

It doesn't 'appear' to contradict itself, it demonstrably does just this, and it does it repeatedly, and on a broad range of ideas and claims. No 'sensible' person would think this was an 'excuse' to decry it either, as this inconsistency and inaccuracy is a compelling reason to doubt the claim that the bible is derived from an omniscient omnipotent deity, and more plausibly supports the idea it was subjectively edited after being cobbled together, from multiple human sources who disagreed over time on a wide range of subjects, as theists still do of course.  

polyglide wrote: Any sensible person would not dispute anything with only two possible answers

That's so wrong it's just silly, do you disagree with people who claim no deity exists? There are only two possible positions, either a deity exists or no deity exists.

I still don't quite grasp how gnostic Christianity is valid if the bible is just a book made up by groups of people, and no deity exists?


Last edited by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:45 pm

Dan Fante wrote:
polyglide wrote:Now, Now, Dan, I do not make things up, I do make mistakes but believing in God is not one of them.
An example of you making things up would be your insistence that the theory of evolution dictates that all snowflakes would be identical.

Well quite, the vast variation and speciation of life we now see is a cornerstone the theory of evolution is predicated on. The original seminal work by Darwin was called On The Origin Of Species. Anyone thinking evolution would produce identical forms doesn't doesn't understand it at all.
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Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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