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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:07 pm

First topic message reminder :

Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

The Gnostic wing of Christianity, if it can even be called that today, has quite a few differences to Christianity and Catholicism.

If the old Gnostic Christians were here, they would hardly recognize what has happened to the original Orthodox Catholic Church or it's various offshoots in Protestantism or Islam. The Gnostic Christian Jesus would have a fit and would be quite disappointed I think. I know that this Gnostic Christian is.

The two main differences that moved the old Christians to kill Gnostic Christians and burn their scriptures was literalism in reading scriptures and the fact that the Gnostic version of Jesus was a Universalist.

That Gnostic Christian Jesus, and the Gnostic Christians of that flavor, (there are likely as many Gnostic sects as Christian sects), sees a spark of God in all people including women and gays. That fact, to me, makes Gnostic Christianity a more desirable denomination of Christianity than all the rest.

If a religion cannot abide with equality of the sexes then to my mind it is not a just religion and is not worthy of the support of moral people. Inequality is an immoral position and most of the Abrahamic cults are of that immoral persuasion.

As the superior Catholic theology, it is my hope that Gnostic Christianity will eventually bury the non-egalitarian and immoral Christian cults as their members recognize that equality is the right moral system for all to live under.

If you have investigated Gnostic Christianity, do you agree that from a moral POV, they are the superior Christian theology thanks to equality and Universalism?

Regards
DL
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:55 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:As all the commandments are sourced and adapted from earlier religions, I guess the answer is neither.

The source does not speak to the veracity of what is given.

Strange that you cannot evaluate the morality of two given systems.

Usually only Christians are that shallow in their thinking.

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DL

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Jsmythe on Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:13 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Nicely put.

The rule # 3 should take care of the evil acts you speak of as it asks that we use harm/care as our reciprocal response.

If harm is done to us, we should not reward that harm with good as that rewards evil actions. Harm must be matched with harm so that we can protect ourselves.

As to AronRa, on which commandment is your criticism focused on? Or was yours just an all encompassing criticism?

Regards
DL

Oh yes # 3 , a good inclusion you put there, which is quite similar to the early covenant with Noah:

Genesis 9

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

6 Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.


As to AronRa ... It is more his version of interpretation , which is his right to have that opinion of course.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:54 pm

Laughing  Not quite turning the other cheek that. Oh well, another contradiction. What a poorly put together book.

Your biblical knowledge is superior to most believers. That is often the case with those who critique Christianity.

You are correct about AronRa of course. I just wondered where you did not agree with him.

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DL
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:48 pm

Greatest I am wrote:

The source does not speak to the veracity of what is given.

I'm not sure that's entirely true, if the source is widely touted as being an omniscient deity then the fact it's commandments appear to be plagiarised and human in origin is compelling evidence they lack the veracity intended. Personally I don't find the ten commandments very useful at all. The first four are different ways for an alleged deity to demand the saccharine worship of it's created 'pets', and so are nothing to do with morality at all.

Honouring your parents has to be qualified and not absolute, as it is axiomatic that some parents don't deserve to be honoured. Moratoriums on theft and murder are evidenced as ubiquitous in human morality and societies that long predate Abrahamic religions, so hardly suggest the source as divine here. Committing adultery can be immoral I'd say, but humans  are fallible and the idea that it is deserving of being tortured, let alone for eternity after you die, is absurdly 'immoral' IMHO, far more immoral than adultery ironically, since we measure the morality fo an act by the consequences it produces and the relative suffering here of eternally torturing someone as opposed to cheating on them, speaks for itself. Not lying about others is probably as profoundly moral as the ten commandments get, without resorting to the obvious by prohibiting murder and theft, though these have not stopped adherents from doing both of course, throughout a long and bloody history, starting with many such narratives in the bible, and moving on through the crusades, the inquisition, countless wars, the virulent antisemitism of Nazism, not forgetting the appalling slave trade, and all often citing canonical scripture as justification.

The last three are an attempt at thought control, as absurdly pointless as they are immoral. Why shouldn't people covet what ever they choose, we all do this all the time, it is harmless in and of itself and probably part of nature to covet things we see. To quote Matt Dillahunty "Why shouldn't I covet my neighbour's ass, especially if they have a nice ass"?

From Wikipedia

"The Ten Commandments form the basis of Jewish law, stating God's universal and timeless standard of right and wrong"

I find that claim absurd, for the reasons stated. They're not timeless for a start, they're not universal either, many human societies do not view adultery as immoral, nor monogamy as a necessary ingredient of marriage. Most of the commandments have nothing to do with human concepts of right and wrong as I stated above, but are arbitrary religious dogma, derived "allegedly" from divine diktat.

If we are capable of reasoning what is moral and what not we needn't be given moral absolutes (even from a deity) if we are not then we have method of determining what is moral or not anyway, so we would be unable to tell if the ten commandments are moral.

Personally I'm in agreement with Sam Harris "The Moral Landscape", that morality and well being are inextricably linked. Though this is a subjective moral claim it is pretty hard to argue against the idea that best moral systems should maximise emotional and physical well being. One this is agreed we can use reason and empirical evidence to determine how moral actions are.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:06 pm

Oh yes # 3 , a good inclusion you put there, which is quite similar to the early covenant with Noah:

Genesis 9

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

6 Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Unless God directly sanctions killing and the shedding of blood of course, which the bible
indicates he does quite often.

Exodus 22

"18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Deuteronomy 17

"17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Deuteronomy 13:

"8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death,"

There are many many more of course...
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:42 am

[quote="Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD"]


I'm not sure that's entirely true, if the source is widely touted as being an omniscient deity then the fact it's commandments appear to be plagiarised and human in origin is compelling evidence they lack the veracity intended.

The veracity of not stealing or killing is obvious, regardless of who says it.

We do not know who put those words first and yes, they have been plagiarized by most religions.

Whatever commandments, which is a poor word as they are only moral suggestions, you believe have veracity, have likely also been plagiarized from older sources.

We do not really care who came up with them when we accept them as worthy to be followed.

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DL
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Greatest I am on Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:47 am

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:
Oh yes # 3 , a good inclusion you put there, which is quite similar to the early covenant with Noah:

Genesis 9

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

6 Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Unless God directly sanctions killing and the shedding of blood of course, which the bible
indicates he does quite often.

Exodus 22

"18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Deuteronomy 17

"17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Deuteronomy 13:

"8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death,"

There are many many more of course...

Yes, but you will note that God exceeds and eye for an eye when he kills adulterers who have not killed anyone. It seems even God screws up on the Golden Rule.

Regards
DL
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by snowyflake on Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:55 pm

Which is evidence that the bible and gnostic christianity is just as man made as any other belief system.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:43 pm

That phrase "man-made" is what seems to cause us the most trouble. Who or what "made" man in the first place? The sheer complexity of the human body defies a glib explanation.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Jsmythe on Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:07 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:

Unless God directly sanctions killing and the shedding of blood of course, which the bible
indicates he does quite often.

Exodus 22

"18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Deuteronomy 17

"17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Deuteronomy 13:

"8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death,"

There are many many more of course...

There is no indication to the biblical quotes above that stonings took place in the bible. These of course were laws of deterents. Perhaps these deterents did work after all !? Smile

Anyway both Exodus and Deuteronomy as I mentioned were deterents like martial law because of the context to BOTH relating to the worshipping false gods especially incuding "human blood sacrifices" along with the other abominable and corrupt practices associated with these types of worships.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

Post by Jsmythe on Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:14 pm

oftenwrong wrote:That phrase "man-made" is what seems to cause us the most trouble.  Who or what "made" man in the first place?  The sheer complexity of the human body defies a glib explanation.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

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