Is David Cameron a moron from the outer reaches of the universe? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

boatlady wrote:The face I want to kick

 
Get into the queue boatlady, there are a few million others awaiting to do more than kick him in the face, some would want to hang up up by his B****CKS, myself I would rather like to force him to do a REAL hard days work like cleaning public toilets with a toothbrush  

Phil Hornby wrote:Point taken, naturally - but Joe Public gets a little nervous these days about a Party which is too wedded to a grouping which is all-too-easily associated with the problems of the 1970s.

It's bad enough for Miliband to suffer constant attacks from Fleet Street's finest without actually having a target painted on his back...

But the people do not get too nervous when told that the Tory party is funded by the very people that caused the Financial crash of 2008 PH, bankers ahd hedge fund managers not forgetting those Tory donors that hide there money in an off shore account so they do not have to pay there RIGHTFULL AMOUNT of tax.  

Red, you're not wrong - to my mind in 2015 it's a straight choice - Labour or Tory - and I for one don't see how the country can cope with another 5 years of Tory policies.
If we do have another tory government we'll be a third world country at the end of it

Redflag wrote:

ghost whistler wrote:Never underestimate the power and appeal of stupidity!

Not when Blue Labour are doing what seems their level best to shoot themselves in the foot on a near daily basis.

I think we underestimate a tory victory at our peril. God help us if that comes true!

I do agree with your post GW, where I disagree is we do not know how Ed Miliband would proceed if the UK have the good sense to put a Labour gov't into power in May 2015, but we all have good imagination to work out what the Tories will do if England votes them back into power in 2015. The reason I mentioned England is Scotland does not VOTE Tory 18 years of Thatcher was more than enough for us Scots, it also worries me that if Scots get a sniff that England will vote the Tories back into power in May 2015 they WILL VOTE TO LEAVE the UK on the 18th September 2014 HENCE CUTTING OFF THEIR NOSE TO SPITE THEIR FACE.

I do believe that more Scots do NOT want to leave the UK but will think voting Yes is the lesser of the two evils. 

I agree it is more important to vote the tories out, which can only be done by returning a labour government.

I also agree we don't know what miliband will actually do.

Unfortunately i think to expect real change is naive. However the overriding priority is the removal of this awful government. We just have to hope Miliband will honour the promises he has made.

".... the overriding priority is the removal of this awful government."

Amen to that, but some correspondents seem to think that in order to get elected the Labour Party needs to present itself as a sort of Tory-party-lite.

Who is going to vote for a shape-changing nebulous entity whose simple desire is to get elected? The Lib-Dems already occupy that field.

Not 'Tory-lite', ow, but also not 'Labour Red' - if the horses are not be frightened...    

boatlady wrote:Red, you're not wrong - to my mind in 2015 it's a straight choice - Labour or Tory - and I for one don't see how the country can cope with another 5 years of Tory policies.
If we do have another tory government we'll be a third world country at the end of it

We are already a third world country boatlady, with the groweth of foodbanks and people that are working having to use them to feed themselves and there kids if this carries on we will be applying to other countries for aid from them.

bobby wrote:Unfortunately Boatlady, Labour (Ed Miliband) have left it far too late to get involved in a political fight. Herr Cameron and the rest of his Fascist henchpersons (a bit of pc there for you)  have had four full years of praying on the poor and the sick without hardly a word from Ed Miliband, that's four years of brainwashing and lies most of which it appears has been swallowed hook line and sinker. People will see any sort of opposition at this late date as nothing other than electioneering if not where was all the opposition whilst the Tory led Coalition busied themselves damning the very people who needed their help the most.
I fully agree with Redflag when she says Edd Miliband will make a "fine PM" but like any competition you need to be in it at the beginning, its no good just sitting on your Tukas leaving it till the end to start competing.
Every time I get a message from the Labour Party, they end by asking for money (donation) I have until around a year ago given, but that has stopped as I am now questioning as to what is happening with my moolah, I am not at all happy with the employment of this all but invisible  American David Axlerod  (could it be he has the wrong geezer and has employed Dr Herbert Axelrod the renown Tropical Fish Expert and he is busy designing an aquarium for 10 Downing Street just on the off chance  Ed Miliband gets to occupy it for a while.)
I know we are now seeing slight signs of a fight back but as I keep saying too little to late there have been a couple of Labour MP's who have been prepared to mix it with the Fascists but unfortunately they like all Labour activists have been left to their own devices.
With the Scottish in out vote looming Labour need to show them that Labour can oust the Tories or as sure as eggs is eggs the vote will be to leave the UK, they will not stop to think that they will be deserting the people to God knows how many more years of Tory (Fascist) rule but will only look to themselves. Even Redflag stated that she has considered voting to leave the UK, except that she has no trust for Salmond.
Had Ed Miliband made himself look electable as from the day after 2010's election, we may not now find ourselves in this position as the likely hood is that we would maintain the vote for a united Kingdom and would hang on to the 41 Scottish MP's..
Ed Miliband has unfortunately allowed himself to be bullied by both the Media and the Fascist Coalition and will leave the very people who have paid or worked for him to yet unlimited Tory Governments.
You can be rest assured that if the Tory Bastards get in for another Parliament, they will make electioneering changes to assure their remaining in Power indefinitely.

I am really sorry to see you so despondent bobby, NEVER SAY NEVER as far as the Tories are concerned you seem to have forgotten the people the Tory themselves have put off EVER voting for them sick disabled public sector workers all staff in OUR NHS the armed forces police fire brigade none of these people will want to vote Tory in 2015. I have been suffering depression due to illness that is why my posts of the past few weeks have not been a bit off, but things are getting better for me so I am hoping to come to England to do some campaigning for the Labour MPs for the upcoming general election and I can assure you and all on here I will be using the same nasty vile smear campaigning that the Tories will be using they will meet there match when they come up against me,the only difference will be I WILL BE TELLING THE TRUTH while they will keep up there BLOODY LIES which I will be waiting for so that I can make them CHOKE on there LIES and show the voting public just what the Tories stand for.

Instead of giving the Labour party donations why not where it is possible give your local Labour party your help in campaigning it may help you to get some of that anger out of your system, as you know I have done campaigning and it is good for the soul to get that anger out on the ones that deserve your anger makes you feel much better.  

   

Hear hear Red!!!

Red said:   "Instead of giving the Labour party donations why not where it is possible give your local Labour party your help in campaigning it may help you to get some of that anger out of your system,"

Hello Red.  I think you are misreading me, I am not by nature an angry person, I am one of those obnoxious people that wakes up with a smile and as often as not go back to bed with the same smile. I do though have a tendency to bite back very quickly, then just as quickly revert back to my happy self, in fact in that sense I am typical Italian.
As for helping my local Labour party with electioneering, I'm afraid  I live in the heart of Surrey and my MP is Jonathan Lord who is sitting pretty with around  90% support. As for my local Labour Party, I never see them, even when attending the polling stations there is never a Labour Member present, I do get the occasional letter which always contains a request for some cash. My point is Red that if I had the time, which I don't (business to run) I would be pissing in the wind as the overall effect in an area like this would be negligible, that is why I have up till recently taken what for me is the easy option and donated money. The thing is though Red, when they do not spend my cash in a manner that I agree with, my natural response is to withdraw my direct debit. I have always been a keen charity donator and that will continue, but to spend my moolah on a Yank spin doctor who I doubt understands the British Psyche is an absolute waste of assets, better get a British spin doctor who understands us.
So please Red do not think of me as a man with nothing better to do that to sit in front of my PC fuming, my life is far too comfortable for that, the Tory scum can not hurt me as I will be well off with or without them, in fact at present I am actually better off with them. The thing I hate is what they are doing to what IMHO was the best country in the world to live in, we have been a very compassionate people, we are not a people of extremes, our weather is never extreme and up till the past 30/40 years or so could walk down almost any street in comparative safety ( I wont go into detail about that as I don't want to be called a racist).
England a country that I used to be proud of, proud enough that at a time with no major unemployment  problems   I chose to join the Army, only  then be called a Fascist. 

I  think that you and I share many similarities -and views -, Bobby - one major exception being that I never had to tour the streets of Belfast with a rifle and with bricks raining down on my head.

But sincere thanks for doing that for me...

Hi Bobby as you alredy know I wnt doen to Eastleigh to help out with the by-election in 2013, here in Scotland we do not vote Toty AT ALL and as I have in my area a Labour councillor Labour MP and Labour MSP.   I do understand that there is not much you can do for the Labour party in your area what about the surrounding areas is there a Labour safe seat or an area that could turn to Labour I am quite sure they would be gratefull for any amont of time you could give them.   After I get the Independence vote here in Scotland out of the way on the 18th of September I will be heading down south to help the Labour party win the 2015 general election, I have asked Ivan White for a few names of Labour MPs that need envelopes stuffed or a bit of campaaigning done I do not intend to sit on my butt and let the Tories walk back into No10 because I know exactly what will happen our NHS will be gone and the Welfare safety net will also be gone which will force people onto the streets rioting and even worse.

For the first time today I went shopping (my weekly shop) to find the Trussell Trust in my local Tesco giving out leaflets asking people to contribute items of food to there trolleys which where sitting at the entrance and I will be putting this on twitter to let eveyone that will be shopping in Tesco right across Scotland, and this is 4th July 2014  if the Tories get back into power in 2015 I will leave it to the posters on here to work out what things will be like if England votes Tory in 2015.  

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BruGrnXCMAMsfff.jpg

Don't we deserve time off for good behaviour?  

"The Establishment" renders a sacrificial goat to the Leveson cause.

.... meanwhile, life in Chipping Norton returns to the status quo ante

Ivan wrote:Don't we deserve time off for good behaviour?  

Coulson got 18 months how about we give Scameron 18 years of a Labour gov't that should sicken his happiness, and it will also let Tory HQ know we are not going to put up with them privatizing OUR public sevices. 

Surely not - what about the dead bitch - Jeffrey Archer, Jimmy Saville, that regrettable person who has joined UKIP (Neil whatever) ? - just a time honoured Tory tradition really

(Neil whatever)

Hamilton

Thanks   

As far as we know, scum like Archer, Hamilton and Savile weren't "in the heart of Downing Street", taking part in the day-to-day running of the government as Coulson was.

Savile was entertained at Chequers every Christmas or New Year during Thatcher's premiership, but that doesn't mean he was involved in government decision-making. However, questions still need to be answered as to why Ken Clarke (the chain-smoking health secretary) and Edwina Currie put Savile in charge of Broadmoor in 1988. My guess is that he was blackmailing Thatcher because he was supplying Tory paedophiles with children and had the ability to bring down the government, but no doubt I'll again be accused of being a conspiracy theorist for suggesting such a thing.  

I do do not think that any one with an ounce of common sense would consider you to being a conspiracy theorist Ivan you are saying what millions are thinking but you have the courage of your convictions and are saying it out loud, but it is one theory I did not think of but have been trying to work out WHY this was covered up, and who seen to it that it was covered up we all know that it was someone in the Thatcher Tory gov't and the reason for covering up the imagination can come up with many reasons.   Well said Ivan  

It's difficult to avoid the strong feeling that Saville and his ilk must have had something on the Tory government of the times - so many people are now coming forward with stories of really quite gross abuses it's impossible to suppose they weren't generally known of at least in some circles

Usually referred to as "Tory Sleaze". But have the voters noticed?

boatlady wrote:It's difficult to avoid the strong feeling that Saville and his ilk must have had something on the Tory government of the times - so many people are now coming forward with stories of really quite gross abuses it's impossible to suppose they weren't generally known of at least in some circles

During both Tory and Labour Governments, in case you conveniently forget.

Let me think. 1997-2010 we were ruled by.. erm ...oh yes the Labour Party. And this wasn't going on then? And the Labour Party didn't know? This has little to do with party politics, only what parties want to make out of it and score points. In fact it has little to do with politics at all when you look at the whole spectrum. Cover-ups at local level, cover-ups at higher level.

Anyway, this is your left wing forum so I expect nothing else.

Good point - maybe I was mistaken in considering this as a purely Tory phenomenon - just I can't remember Savile being so feted by Blair's government (who of course had their own faults) so I didn't consider that the Labour government would be so implicated - but of course you're right - sauce for the goose is of course sauce for the gander

I see that this Tory gov't is behaving no different to the Thatcher gov't of 1979/97, the sleaze is pouring out and with the inquiries that are going on there will be a lot more to come for allthere is only 10 months to go from the next general election.

bobby wrote:Rest Assured Red. If any of the allegations fall at the feet of Labour Politicians, the voters will know about it before May 2015, but if it is predominately a Tory phenomenon we will not see it splashed all over the media  in time for the election.

Only on here would we see such a post.

This is 2014. Paedophilia is inter-political, involving all parties, clergy, laity and the public etc over decades. Try thinking about it. One paper has just headlined the Tories involvement. Can't remember which as I only glanced at the lurid headlines as I passed the news stand.

I guess as everyone seems to be looking for paedophilia, it's likely that very few instances will be undiscovered - whatever political party or religious affiliation the offenders espouse

bobby wrote:Rest Assured Red. If any of the allegations fall at the feet of Labour Politicians, the voters will know about it before May 2015, but if it is predominately a Tory phenomenon we will not see it splashed all over the media  in time for the election.

With the utter disgust within the UK public I do not think the Tories would dare attempt a cover up because it would have the same effect as the allegations coming out bobby, with the strong feeling in the UK they would start to think the Tories where covering up for their collegues in the Thatcher gov't, as it is at the moment the UK know it was a Tory gov't in power when these allegations first surfaced.

I do not think that Ed Miliband or the Labour party will allow this to die down more so Tom Watson or Simon Danscuk, they both have been on this for the last two years and Simon has been told by a senior Tory to drop this and as we have seen neither of them have listened to the threats.

Redflag wrote:

bobby wrote:Rest Assured Red. If any of the allegations fall at the feet of Labour Politicians, the voters will know about it before May 2015, but if it is predominately a Tory phenomenon we will not see it splashed all over the media  in time for the election.

With the utter disgust within the UK public I do not think the Tories would dare attempt a cover up because it would have the same effect as the allegations coming out bobby, with the strong feeling in the UK they would start to think the Tories where covering up for there collegues in the Thatcher gov't, as it is at the moment the UK know it was a Tory gov't in power when these allegations first surfaced.

I do not think that Ed Miliband or the Labour party will allow this to die down more so Tom Watson or Simon Danscuk, they both have been on this for the last two years and Simon has been told by a senoir Tory to drop this and as we have seen neither of them have listen to the threats.

And were still known when Labour were in power. Pot and Kettle come to mind.

trevorw2539 wrote:-
Redflag. Saving space by not quoting.

Good practice. So why not practise what you preach?   

Quoting previous messages

If you are answering the most recent message on a thread, there is no need to quote it. We only need to see messages once.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t391-posting-tips

trevorw2539 wrote:And were still known when Labour were in power. Pot and Kettle come to mind.

Not according to what I have heard trevor, not long after that dossier was handed over to a Tory Minister that dossier was shredded (this is my opinion) as I think there has been more than one cover up the first one was to make sure it did not come out into the public domain the second one was the shredding of the dossier done before a Labour gov't came into power.   I think you would do better to apply Kettle & Black at the door of this and previous Tory gov't.

About 18 months ago a man in his late  forties early fifties who when younger had been in a childrens home in North Wales, he said evey friday a mini bus was sent down for him and others from the home they where taken to London for the weekend and he told a reporter he was sexually abused by a Tory MP he describe the flat as having very expensive furniture Chippendale chairs ect, a few months later on twitter  eveyone was trying to work out who it was and Sally Bercow got into severe trouble and was sued in the courts I think you may remember this incident as I do not want to repeat why Sally was sued in case it gets me or this forum into trouble. 

trevorw2539. Tu quoque is a logical fallacy which literally translates as “you too”. This is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off the accused having to defend themselves and shifts the focus back onto the accuser.

The usual Tory reply to the suggestion that some members of Thatcher’s government were part of a paedophile ring is to try and smear Labour with:-

1. Cyril Smith – he was in the Labour Party before he joined the Liberals. But Smith left the Labour Party in 1966 when Rochdale council refused to vote for an increase in council house rents. No complaints were made about him until 1979, which David Steel chose to ignore. Interesting that Smith tried to form a new centre party with Edward Heath (a former Tory PM and paedophile) in 1978 and that he appeared on the ‘Clunk Click’ TV show hosted by Jimmy Savile (enough said).

2. The PIE - in 1976, the Paedophile Information Exchange latched onto the issue of gay rights and, along with thousands of other organisations, affiliated to the National Council for Civil Liberties (which changed its name to Liberty in 1989). Labour’s Harriet Harman worked for the NCCL as its legal officer from 1978-1982, and the Tories seem to think that taints her with paedophilia. Not so Leon Brittan, of course, who as Tory home secretary refused to ban the PIE in 1983.

There are judges, diplomats and entertainers under suspicion, and we all know about Catholic priests, though I don’t think they’re part of this investigation. But protest as much as you like, this is a political issue and it’s mainly (though not entirely) an issue surrounding the Tory government of the 1980s.

- It was a Tory home secretary who refused to ban the PIE and who mislaid the Dickens dossier.

- It was a Tory PM who made five applications for a knighthood for Savile and entertained him at Chequers every New Year. Labour PMs Blair and Brown didn’t.

- It was a Tory health secretary who inexpicably put Savile in charge of Broadmoor.

- A man who claims to have been abused as a boy by a senior Tory has accused the then Tory Welsh secretary William Hague of "stifling" a 1997 paedophile inquiry by preventing it from examining claims beyond the care system in North Wales.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9663457/William-Hague-stifled-1996-paedophile-report-says-victim.html

Anyway, this is your left wing forum so I expect nothing else......Only on here would we see such a post.

You’re welcome to post here, but is there any need to doubt our integrity with messages like those? This has got nothing to do with our political affiliations, the vast majority of allegations about paedophilia which are being investigated now concern Tories and their Establishment celebrity friends and that’s a fact, something which has been particularly scarce in your recent posts.

From what I’ve read in the past two years, although this is currently uncorroborated, there are two of those paedophiles in the government right now, one on the backbenches, one in the House of Lords and one working for the BBC – all still alive and all Tories.

Perhaps unsurprising to note that MPs are truly "Representative of The People".

Ivan.

I was not questioning anyone's intregrity, the inference was that the view was a 'left-sided' view, which one expects on here.

I know the meaning of Tu Quoque, having been there when it was first used in the 1700's. Well it feels like it some days.  

I'm not going to get into tit-for-tat quotes and Labour faults. They are there and you must be aware of them as you quote one of them. Perhaps you should look more closely at one of them. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/4949555/Harriet-Harman-under-attack-over-bid-to-water-down-child-pornography-law.html

I am politically 'agnostic'. If I vote I will decide if there is a 'god' I can believe in, and vote accordingly.

IMHO if the Labour Party insist on bringing up the 1980's they will do themselves more harm than good. Both parties have had 30 years to deal with this and have failed to do so. Joe public is not interested in 30 years ago, unless he was involved, he is interested in now. The public do not trust Parliamentarians.

I don't post on political subjects much, and certainly not on here. It seems to have become a self-gratifying talk shop of left wingers mainly agreeing among themselves.

Poor old Harriet Harman - never going to be allowed to forget that she was silly in 1978.

I had some pretty stupid ideas myself in 1978, but I have been mercifully allowed to move on and take my place in society without having it endlessly upcast.

I wonder if you still stand by all the lunatic fringe things you believed in your 20's, Trevor? Or have you changed your mind about anything?

trevorw2539 wrote:IMHO if the Labour Party insist on bringing up the 1980's they will do themselves more harm than good. Both parties have had 30 years to deal with this and have failed to do so. Joe public is not interested in 30 years ago, unless he was involved, he is interested in now. The public do not trust Parliamentarians.

I don't post on political subjects much, and certainly not on here. It seems to have become a self-gratifying talk shop of left wingers mainly agreeing among themselves.

As for the left bringing up the 80s trevor you seem to forget it was Thatchers Tory gov't that was in power, and it was the same Thatchers Tory gov't that the scandals & sleaze kept coming from, Hamilton Aitken are just two of several indescretions, at a later date it came out that Major had been at it with Edwina Currie in  the broom cupboards of the HOC, and him being a married man.   I do not see you telling the Tories not to bring up the years 1997/2010 because it will do them harm with the voting public just so the public are not interested in the last 13 years of Labour gov't the only thing they are interested in is NOW and the last 4 years of Tory austerity when they did not cause the financial crash of 2008 but the sick disabled not forgetting the unemployed who through no fault of there's where flung on the scrap heap then DEMONIZED and belittled by the same Tory gov't who where the ones that sacked them.  this was done not to cut the deficit but so the Tories could give there friends and Donors of the Tory party a tax cut of 5p for those earning £150,000 upwards.

This is nothing more than a gov't ran on Ideology of the Tory Mantra, give to those that have and take off the have nots. 

boatlady wrote:Poor old Harriet Harman - never going to be allowed to forget that she was silly in 1978.

I had some pretty stupid ideas myself in 1978, but I have been mercifully allowed to move on and take my place in society without having it endlessly upcast.

I wonder if you still stand by all the lunatic fringe things you believed in your 20's, Trevor? Or have you changed your mind about anything?

Then where do you NOT bring up things from the early years. You on this thread are harping on about the 80's and things people did then.
Labour is harping on about the 80's and many Tories are recognising the failings of the time. Since then ALL parties have ignored what they have known, but didn't want to deal with. Now someone has to.
The thing to do is to move on and deal with the problem without throwing stones at each other.
Perhaps the most unedifying place in the UK is now the Houses of Parliament. Many people I know have no trust in any party. And who can blame them. People don't want parties scoring points of each other. That's juvenile.
What people want is a prosperous future. What people want to know is what each party can do for them - as individuals, and as a nation. Then they can make up their minds.
Deal with the problem as a Parliament. While the parties are slinging stones the public are in the middle - wondering what sort of elected representatives they have elected.

Redflag. You post has gone off the topic I was discussing. I understood we were talking Paedophilia, not indiscretions of people having affairs. Some very famous people have had affairs, Tory and Labour, and it is not a criminal offence - at least not in the UK. It may not be something you approve of, but people are free to do what they wish in this way.

If this were a right wing forum I would say the same to them, but it isn't. All I've seen on here is Tory misdemeanors in the 80'. Are you naive enough to believe that Labour did not have the same problem? Would Labour have dealt with the situation any differently? They had the chance in the Blair years. Who knows?

Trevor - you seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar.
1) I was commenting on the fact that INDIVIDUALS sometimes believe things in their 20's that they would later blush to recall. The other point was that I can see parallels between the behaviour of the current government and the Tory government led by Margaret Thatcher in the '80's. Governments are not the same as individuals, and my point was that Harriet Harman (an individual) is capable of holding differing views at different parts of her life, and may in fact be today a completely viable human being, despite having had some silly ideas when she was younger - just like me and probably also you. I might also want to comment that I believe governments also are capable of moving on from foolish ideas - although I can't see much sign of this government doing so.

2) You are right of course - we've all gone wildly off topic - there is in fact a thread for discussing scandals associated with this government, and that would have been the proper place perhaps to locate this discussion.

In relation to the paedophilia allegations, maybe there's a bit of schadenfreude being expressed on the forum about the discomfiture of the current government which is having to deal with the fallout from events that seem to have taken place in the '80's - sorry if you find that distasteful - but I think we all appreciate that these are serious allegations and that the finger of blame may well come to rest on anyone at all.

I for one completely respect your non-aligned political position and no-one wants to force you into some kind of sinister left-wing mould; however, if you are going to make sweeping statements such as Labour is harping on about the 80's and many Tories are recognising the failings of the time. Since then ALL parties have ignored what they have known, but didn't want to deal with maybe you could give us some links to show where this is happening? Because my impression is that the opposition are mostly commenting on what's happening in the here and now and making promises for the future.