Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

First topic message reminder :

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.

"Just to end this, I would like to say I am in favour of immigration...in a sensible and controlled way
It was inevitable that if thousands upon thousands were let in under the last administration (and this one) then there would be huge numbers of people fighting over finite job opportunities. This in turn creates a culture where unscrupulous employers can take advantage and pay below the going rate knowing there are always other people who will take the jobs if their current employees complain"

That part of your post is somewhat true blue. However you spoil it by
saying "It was inevitable that if thousands upon thousands were let in under the last administration (and this one)". You say it as if both parties could have curbed the amount of immigrants "let in", they couldn't, as we keep telling you, EU ruling for Gods sake man.

This is where Tory propaganda via the press/media feed false information of blame to the masses and they fall for it hook line and sinker. "It's all New Labours fault" Pha!!!. Ignorance is bliss!!!

That part of your post is somewhat true blue. However you spoil it by
saying "It was inevitable that if thousands upon thousands were let in under the last administration (and this one)". You say it as if both parties could have curbed the amount of immigrants "let in", they couldn't, as we keep telling you, EU ruling for Gods sake man.

I think you might be wrong there Mel. Other EU Nations had laws in place to restrict the number of migrants from eastern european nations. Tony Blair decided not include the UK in this.
I remember watching question time at the time when these eastern european nations were going to join the Eu and the Labour chap on the panel would not change from his view that expected arrival figures would be 15,000...when everybody including most of the audience members knew this would not be the case...He knew it too, but was just following the figures fed to him be the spin machine.

So why were we all lied to...and why are the current lot still carrying on with the lie? What was the purpose of this mass immigration over a short period of time?

The French and the Italians will tell you MEL, that EU rules are to be applied by the British, and brushed aside by themselves!

Determination by our MEPs THAT'S wot's needed


But then, they are so content swilling around in that centrally heated trough that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong in the world!


EDIT

Should read

"NOTHING wrong in the country that payes their wages and nurses their lifestyle"

This is where Tory propaganda via the press/media feed false information of blame to the masses and they fall for it hook line and sinker. "It's all New Labours fault" Pha!!!. Ignorance is bliss!!!.

Doh!!!!! Who was in government at the time? Mickey Mouse???

If we are going along those lines, then don't blame the Tories for NHS reforms, the increase in tuition fees ect...Its just Labour propaganda via the left wing press...Ignorance is indeed bliss!!!

What false information have we been fed by your so called Tory media Mel?

Bloo, Hello,

I remember Claire Short on QT espousing this open doors as the best thing since sliced bread! I remember opposition MPs espousing this as well - names who were hardly known then and climbing over each other's backs now to get in the news. It was Tony Blair's idea angd Gordon went along with it (as did the Tory, opposition leadership) and ALL can hold their heads in shame!

Now that I agree with Astra and we can see the coalition going along the same lines. The reason they all went for it originally was because we were all experiments in their EU project. The EU is another nice revenue stream for MP's and hangers on once their government has been voted out of office. The same will happen with the Tories and Lib Dems...They should all hold their heads in shame.....but 99% of politicians have no shame

Yeah but??????

What do you say to the (Tory) accusation at the time, that Brown was only doing this in the hope that he was bringing in more Labour voters??



Didn't work did it?

Maybe that was part of the plan Astra, but you would need to be in the inner circle to find out the truth of their motives. In reality the outcome has pis*ed off many traditional working class Labour voters as they are the ones being squeezed out of jobs and homes by too many economic migrants. I am sure in many areas education and healthcare is suffering from the effects too.

Sensible numbers of immigration is not a bad thing, in fact it's a good thing and very beneficial to our economy and nation as a whole

I have NEVER seen anyone say that Immigration is a BAD thing and should be STOPPED now.

It is a common ploy, and Blue, you have stepped into it, without prompting.
immigration in healthy numbers for the recieving administration IS a good thing. But what we are experiencing now is decidedly UNHEALTHY! and only the mullas in Brussels are enjoying this, as at last, after 2,000+ years, they are FORCING their will on the British Society

What seems to be the problem with allowing a person to earn a day's wage for a day's work?

Is EVERYONE turning fascist?

oftenwrong wrote:What seems to be the problem with allowing a person to earn a day's wage for a day's work?

Is EVERYONE turning fascist?

Erm. Lack of jobs?

"What false information have we been fed by your so called Tory media Mel?"

How many more times blue. The Tory press feed Joe public with coloured and muddied information. They pander to the guillible by slipping in little articles that suggest just as you seem to think that Labour created open door policy on immigration when they were bound by EU ruling with no cealing on the amount allowed in.
I accept that some other EU countries have less to offer the immigrant than the UK, hence more tend to come here for the better opportunities.

Where you and many others have been misled is that the UK can restrict or indeed increase only foreign professionals/experts/ into the UK. This is where Cameron has attempted to fool the public when he said he would "cut" immigration. He of course failed to explain that these minority much needed professionals who fill the gap where our own expertise does not exist, are the only immigrants that the UK can legally control and who come here from outside the EU.

Same old story, the Tory press/media take a few bad twisted examples and offer them up to the Tories to assist the implementation of their evil Tory ideology. One bad benefit cheat is highlighted to make that the rest of claimants are of the same mould. Same applies to immigration the real truth is hidden.

Politicians need a "bogey-man" with which to frighten us.
Hitler, Communsits, the IRA, immigration - anything will serve to explain why they do what they do, and fail to do what they should.

Mel.......I dont understand your point. Tell me where the Tory press (as you put it) have mis-informed the public? And why didn't you respond to my point that other nations had measures put in place to restrict migrants from eastern europe, but Blair decided not to take up this option? Do you think that was a mistake by Blair, or are you in denial of this fact.

I thought we were going have a sensible discussion on Immigration? I guess not

Miliband now thinks New Labour made errors on Immigration, so do you agree with him or is he feeding us with the same mis-information as the Tories?

oftenwrong wrote:What seems to be the problem with allowing a person to earn a day's wage for a day's work?

Is EVERYONE turning fascist?

With all the sackings within the public sector plus the kick back effect on the private sector which is evident on every high street the length and breadth of the UK, nobody can get a decent days pay for a decent days work OW, we are not turning facist why is it when immigration is talked about people come up with names to call them, no wonder every gov't is scared Witless to mention immigration I mean outside of the EU.

"Miliband is simply making a statement to appease the masses"

Playing Cameron at his own game."

Blue, my comment above was posted on this thread a few posts ago. If you are going to come here and question me on various issues, which is fine as long as you please take the trouble to read my prevous posts which already answer your questions and I really do not wish to keep on reapeating myself just for your benefit, with respect.

Quote "And why didn't you respond to my point that other nations had measures put in place to restrict migrants from eastern europe"

Again I thought that I had answered your question in my last post here blue. The fact is that the only restrictions (if you can call them that) is that other EU countries do not offer the same benefits to their own people, let alone immigrants, as we do here in the UK.
I perhaps agree with some that immigrants should not be afforded the free health and Social Security benefits that we in the UK so readily offer them.
However other EU countries have to abide by the same rules that we do here in the UK regarding no limits on numbers coming in.

Redflag wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:What seems to be the problem with allowing a person to earn a day's wage for a day's work?

Is EVERYONE turning fascist?

With all the sackings within the public sector plus the kick back effect on the private sector which is evident on every high street the length and breadth of the UK, nobody can get a decent days pay for a decent days work OW, we are not turning facist why is it when immigration is talked about people come up with names to call them, no wonder every gov't is scared Witless to mention immigration I mean outside of the EU.

But government figures show that unemployment reduced in May .....

"Unemployment in the United Kingdom has fallen by 51,000 in the three months to April, according to newly released statistics. The number of people registered out of work between February and April stood at 2.61 million."

Don't you believe them?

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-unemployment-figure-down-51-093818350.html

OW. Thanks for the website. It's always interesting to see these sorts of figures in totality. Not a figure taken out of context.

It's rather like tweaking the bathroom scales and finding your weight has gone down, although your waist is 2 inches wider - and 2 inches lower

Proof that you're losing weight - or your marbles

Blue.... I have never called anyone on here a racist or bigot for even trying bring up the subject of uncontrolled immigration. if I have Blue then please feel free to show me. as I have no issue at saying I am sorry or that I am wrong to anyone.

So are we only now allowed to have our opinion since Miliband has come clean and recognised there is and always was a legitimate issue? Because its high time we all debated this. its not about Ed Miliband is it or what and when he said it is it. but that a major political figure has said it. I have never agreed with economic exploitation of either Eastern Europeans or British workers alike. nor have I supported any idea that this sort of immigration. In fact I have campaigned to have this whole policy looked at inside the party.

What I think Ed Miliband is talking about is this whole question of economic exploitation and how immigration has played its part in this? I have no time at all for racism at all nor am I at all interested in the general Extreme right wing views on immigration. as the whole question of immigration within the UK is a question of economics and economic exploitation of both UK People and Eastern Europeans alike nothing else. its this that Ed Miliband was talking about in my view. its this that need rejecting as its damaging to all sides and our economy here and within Europe as a whole.

As the fact is immigration has happened over 100s of years not just since 1997 to 2009 or because the EU has come into being. as we have always had immigration well before this. you only need to read the History of the UK to see this is a fact of life. in fact the East end of London was built on immigration. but what we have now is a plain case of companies using economic exploitation of both UK People and Eastern Europeans alike that is clearly against UK employment law.

in fact I have never be interested in playing to any gallery of voters, as i will always leave this to others. but I am interested in economic discrimination and economic exploitation of people for private gain. just like I am interested in fair trade goods for a fair price.

Now if you wish to say its only OK to talk about this because Ed Miliband has said it. then fine... if needs must. but please for give me in not joining in Blue. as it does not interest me who said what or when it was said. if you believe that him saying this heads of the BNP then please tell me how many votes the BNP have within the UK? would you say 4% Maybe? well not many votes in that then is it? No this is just about economic exploitation of people for private gain.

"Unemployment in the United Kingdom has fallen by 51,000 in the three months to April, according to newly released statistics. The number of people registered out of work between February and April stood at 2.61 million."

Don't you believe them?

http://www.itv.com/news/tyne-tees/story/2012-06-20/jobless-figures-rise-in-the-north-east/



Says it all really, the feckless bunch of lying toads!



"Unemployment in the North East has risen in the three months to April.

145,000 people were out of work in the region between February and April, up by 8,000. 11.3 per cent of the workforce are unemployed.

Nationally, the jobless total *dropped *by 51,000 to 2.61 million."

Stox, please consider the fact that BECAUSE of EU regulation, we cannot get rid of undesirables once they are here. To ADD insult to injury, we cannot stop these people coming here iffin they want to - coz it's against their human rights to stop them! + the border control is so unfit for purpose, we could not stop Hugo Chavez coming in even if we wanted to!

What about the human rights OF OUR GRANDCHILDREN, DO THEY NOT COUNT IN ALL OF THIS?

Hear hear astra.

Nationally, the jobless total *dropped *by 51,000 to 2.61 million."
.

I would imagine this is down to more part time workers and Seasonal placements though?!

Bloo,
OK its good that the figures show a temporary dip, more to the hiring hands for the Olympics (many of course, unpaid)


What I gripe at, is the fact that the North East has been left out of ANY comment whatsoever!

I hope this bears ill for the deniers those who would ignore this detail.

The unemployment figures in the north west are up yet again. The north west has one of the highest levels of unemployment. I don't expect that to change either in the next couple of decades!

That's the thing Adele,

Those numpty party sychophants (either party) will NOT admit to bad news, except if it is "Deemed a good day for declaring bad news"

Incidentally what are the figures for the North West?

Got it - UP 8,000 to 9.4%

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2012-06-20/unemployment-in-the-north-west-increases-by-8-000/


Something HAS to be done.

Lets face it, you only have to watch Tv for a while to realise that most people in the media and probably many in government think there is only life in London and the rest of us can just be ignored

hello Bloo

Why don't the "local party Members of parliament (small case deliberate) get stuck in and make SOOOOOOOOOOO many noises that this cannot be ignored.
EDIT - Nick Broon was a waste of space during the BSC crisis and we STILL have him!

Why don't the local media (excepting the BBC) get stuck in and say "Hay, if you don't get some work for us, no one is gonna afford to buy our newspapers"

Why don't the local people get stuck in - OH! That's right! It's just NOT the 'British Way!

blue "I would imagine this is down to more part time workers and Seasonal placements though?!"

I'm certain that you are correct blue. Try telling Osborne that though.

"I would imagine this is down to more part time workers and Seasonal placements though?!"

Great, so there won't be any more Tottenham Riots, 'cos the 'hood will be like washing plates and makin' sandwiches, innit?

But didn't the numbers also say that the number claiming benefits was UP?

Lets get back to the title topic.....

Astra Quote "Stox, please consider the fact that BECAUSE of EU regulation, we cannot get rid of undesirables once they are here. To ADD insult to injury, we cannot stop these people coming here iffin they want to - coz it's against their human rights to stop them! "

100% correct my friend, although the Tory media/press still feed the guillable uneducated that Labour could have stopped the flow of immigrants here. On the other hand Cameron has raised the bar by claiming he will control immigration, when he knows full well he cant.

All the incorrect publicity encourages racism by the very fact that it encourages anger in those who are led to believe otherwise.

astra wrote:Stox, please consider the fact that BECAUSE of EU regulation, we cannot get rid of undesirables once they are here. To ADD insult to injury, we cannot stop these people coming here iffin they want to - coz it's against their human rights to stop them! + the border control is so unfit for purpose, we could not stop Hugo Chavez coming in even if we wanted to!

What about the human rights OF OUR GRANDCHILDREN, DO THEY NOT COUNT IN ALL OF THIS?

But I think that if some one commits a crime punishable by prison that should be the end of there stay in the UK, and that also goes for those immigrants from outside the EU.

But I think that if some one commits a crime punishable by prison that should be the end of there stay in the UK, and that also goes for those immigrants from outside the EU

.


Correct 'Flag, but you know as well as I do that it is the judges in London, Brussels and Strasbourg who are the flies in the ointment, and leave the British Taxpayer with the EXPENSIVE and UNJUSTIFIABLE (by anybody's reckoning) route of having to put up with or pander to their whims!

Re: Immigration into the UK - could there ever be a political consensus on this issue?


I personaly dont think there will ever be any form of consensuson immigration. Since the Tory Edward Teeth took us into Europe, we have had little choice as to where it would lead us. We as a Nation have had to suffer many injustices as well as benefits to the indigenous population, and are now officially a Multi - Cultural Nation. Being half Italian and Half English, some might ask “ who is he to talk” but as a child I followed my family, I didn’t lead, but was bought up predominantly in London, and have an attitude shared by many Londoners. As I said we are now officially a Multi - Cultural nation as are many other European Nations, but who ever asked the indigenous populations if they wanted England, Italy, France, Germany etc if they wanted to become Multi - Cultural, no one ever asked me, or better still, no one ever asked my Old Dad who spent 6.5 years away from home fighting for England to remain English.

I have no objection to foreigners coming here to work, and I know several who have done just that, what I do object to is it seems, once the dodgy ones get a foot/sandal hold in another’s country, its all but impossible to get rid of them. It seems to me that the reason given by many who come here is to have a better life, and who can blame them, but many come from veritable shit holes, then spend all their time trying to turn England into a similar shit hole than the one they left, both they and we would have been better off if they stayed where the where.

If all went by the old maxim of “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” we wouldn’t have half the misery foist upon us by unwanted and unnecessary immigration. As soon as an illegal immigrant sets foot on British soil, by the very fact they got here illegally should means they have forfeited any right to stay here and to be protected by British/European law. Even the legal Immigrants should if found guilty of a criminal act, should also have to forfeit any rights to legal status or protection. We could even survive Herr Cameron’s cuts to the Police. If we rid ourselves if foreign criminals.

Hello Bobby, how you doin'?

If we rid ourselves if foreign criminals.

There is NO such a thing as a "Foreign Criminal" Bobby. All imigrants are cuddly, nice and friendly toward us!

The Polish cabal has started up around Aviemore again, as they are getting in eachother's way, standing on each others feet, poaching each other's Turf. Yes, a turf war in Scotland, and these Poles are at each other's throats, blood IS being spilt - not a river, I'll grant you, but a rivulet all the same. (better not continue THAT one) The child sacrifices seem to continue in the "Home Counties" but that is OK, just let them play. Girls are being lifted off the pavements, but in Brussels, this is all OK and par for the course and our elected MP's cower and pander to all comers. MEP's are in this mix somewhere, supposedly to put our intrests and requirements before the EU cabal. I do not see an end to this sadly.

I have found it interesting that Dave and his party have been critical of open immigration including that from the EU, have said nothing about what could be taken as an open invitation to those, from France, who would be subject to the possible 75% tax the new French government has talked about.....

It would seem, to me, that this is another one of Thatchers policies he has taken on board.....

Does anyone else remember when Hong Kong was going to be given back to China, Thatcher said only those, from Hong Kong, with a couple of Hundred Thousand Pounds or more would given the right to enter the UK.......

Hello V Mate. I am doing quite well, although the Menears has made a comeback, nowhere near as violent as it was before, but I read that it lasts from 5 - ten years and there was very little likelyhood of a return, my first bout lasted eleven years with a full respite for around two. The Doctor must have been a Tory as all he said was lies. Never mind V, their are many worst off than me.

Then why not abandon ship, right now, and let its co-captains, y’all’s loyal friends

an excellent idea RoB, but there is not an insurance company who would cover the wife OR myself due to our illnesses.

Just for curiosity, I asked Shirina to see what it would take for us to move over the pond - impossible!

Germany and France friends?, only if you have friends to accept you, money, and plenty of it, and the good health of a line backer!

People who have had strokes and have cancer just ain't welcome (unless it is the UK you are coming to, of course!)

OH!!

Got ya now

There are far too many blinckered sods who think the EU is a good idea, (and I admit it SHOULD BE, but not in it's present format) and if we go in we can change it to the way WE would like it! Never Happen! Best IMO to throw it up in the air and start again!

Curious how a discussion on immigration always finishes as a commentary on money.