Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

by **Ivan** Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.

by biglin Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:57 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Medical opinion suggests that sitting on the fence may aggravate hemmorrhoids.

Cobblers!

If you can't tell the difference between refusing to buy the soap on offer and sitting on the fence I suggest you get out into the real world a bit more.

And it's always better in life to THINK before you act or you wind up falling over a cliff!

And of course your brain ceases to function and you become a robot!

by biglin Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:00 pm

Political fence sitters who refuse to accept any political party and engage in complaining in a political disscussion, are a pretty useless bunch of creatures IMO.

My husband is an anarchist. His answer to that would be that people who accept the propaganda and brainwashing of any political party were a pretty useless bunch of creatures.

I'm not an anarchist though I do think the anarchist critique of the state is pretty unanswerable.

I'm a libertarian - something that scares the hell out of socialists who, like conservatives, are instinctively authoritarian and repressive.

by Mel Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:37 am

Look!!!!biglin, no need to get out of your pram. "Cobblers!"??? Not so, those who were brainwashed by the Tory media/press/ propaganda bias against Brown and NL are responsible for letting these barstewards in by the back door. Yes I mean those who foolishly thought that the LD's would be a better alternative and took their vote from Labour.

From what you have said --
"Like I said, I've only voted Tory once and I didn't like doing it but at the time I felt it was the lesser of two evils."

Was that at the last election biglin?

by biglin Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:01 pm

Mel wrote: Look!!!!biglin, no need to get out of your pram. "Cobblers!"??? Not so, those who were brainwashed by the Tory media/press/ propaganda bias against Brown and NL are responsible for letting these barstewards in by the back door. Yes I mean those who foolishly thought that the LD's would be a better alternative and took their vote from Labour.

From what you have said --
"Like I said, I've only voted Tory once and I didn't like doing it but at the time I felt it was the lesser of two evils."

Was that at the last election biglin?

Let's respond to that in reverse order.

No, I voted Labour in 2010.

I've never allowed myself to be brainwashed by the media, left or right. The whole thing is a childish circus and it's all propaganda so I try to make up my own mind. As someone once said, 'don't bother reading between the lines/In the Mirror or the Times.'

If you seriously think that people turned against Labour in 2010 (and I speak as someone who DID vote for them - I voted Tory in 2005 actually) simply because of media brainwashing you must have a total contempt for the people of Britain (most authoritarians do - left and right).

People voted - and I talked to LOADS of people - on a range of issues. Most people I talked to agonised over the issue and were genuinely unsure who to vote for.

For what it's worth the Lib Dems have helped to put the brakes on the the Tories. Without them Dodgy Dave would have had a majority and you'd have a LOT more to complain about.

I guess fanatics are always incapable of seeing any point of view than their own.

by **Ivan** Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:43 pm

For what it's worth the Lib Dems have helped to put the brakes on the the Tories.

You are joking! The Tories have handed the NHS over to their corporate backers, destroyed the welfare state, and are now busy privatising everything in sight, even police dog handlers! Far from putting a brake on the Tories, the Lib Dems have been facilitators to the most right-wing government this country has had for more than a century.

by **Phil Hornby** Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:26 pm

The LibDems ( and not least Clegg) have shown themselves to be a bunch of shabby opportunists who were more than willing to dispense with all the principles they purported to hold dear prior to May 2010, and to be content to prostitute themselves in any necessary way to grab and hold onto power.

Since it is highly unlikely they will see power again for decades one must trust they are making the most of it now before they go down in history as a shameless outfit who could not be trusted to look after a kid's lollipop at a birthday party...

by blueturando Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:01 pm

I guess fanatics are always incapable of seeing any point of view than their own

.

What could you possibly mean Biglin

You are joking! The Tories have handed the NHS over to their corporate backers, destroyed the welfare state, and are now busy privatising everything in sight, even police dog handlers! Far from putting a brake on the Tories, the Lib Dems have been facilitators to the most right-wing government this country has had for more than a century..

Ahhh yes, right on cue....Now I know what you mean

by **Ivan** Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:13 pm

LOL.

by Mel Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:39 am

"always incapable of seeing any point of view than their own"

Seems that the "fanatics" are not alone!!!

"I guess fanatics are always incapable of seeing any point of view than their own."
In your own words biglin---" Cobblers". Laughing

by oftenwrong Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:40 am

The current recession has pushed into the background any awareness people might have had, that much of Britain's wealth originated from the efforts of foreigners coming to our shores. French Protestant Huguenots brought their knowledge and silk-weaving skills here in the 16th.C., to our mutual advantage.

In the late-19th Century, the church at the corner of London's Brick Lane became a synagogue, as thousands of Jews moved into Spitalfields in the Huguenots's wake. More than 2 million Jews left Eastern Europe between 1881 and 1914, prompted by economic hardship and increasingly ferocious persecution following the assassination of Tsar Alexander II in 1881.

Their economic contribution was supplemented by a similar wave of educated wealthy and industrious refugees of Nazi Germany. Post-war partition of India brought here numerous people accustomed to earning their living through hard-work, augmented by Immigrants from Britain's former Caribbean colonies.

It's ironic that the origin of Victorian greatness lay in the British Empire, whose inhabitants appear not to be welcome here in the 21st.C.

by **Phil Hornby** Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:01 pm

If only they hadn't been foreigners we could have given them some credit.... Shocked

by Redflag Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:33 pm

Ivan wrote:
For what it's worth the Lib Dems have helped to put the brakes on the the Tories.
You are joking! The Tories have handed the NHS over to their corporate backers, destroyed the welfare state, and are now busy privatising everything in sight, even police dog handlers! Far from putting a brake on the Tories, the Lib Dems have been facilitators to the most right-wing government this country has had for more than a century.

Agree with what you have said Ivan, what is it that the Tories hate the public sector is it just because they can up there donors profit so the Tory party funds are boosted ??.

by Stox 16 Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:09 am

Redflag wrote:
Ivan wrote:
For what it's worth the Lib Dems have helped to put the brakes on the the Tories.
You are joking! The Tories have handed the NHS over to their corporate backers, destroyed the welfare state, and are now busy privatising everything in sight, even police dog handlers! Far from putting a brake on the Tories, the Lib Dems have been facilitators to the most right-wing government this country has had for more than a century.

Agree with what you have said Ivan, what is it that the Tories hate the public sector is it just because they can up there donors profit so the Tory party funds are boosted ??.

Hi Red
Well I sure know who I will be voting for come the next election and its the Labour party and I do not care who knows it either.

by Stox 16 Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:14 am

Mel wrote:biglin Quote--"On right-wing forums I'm generally considered a socialist or even a communist; on left-wing ones I'm generally considered a right-wing Tory or even a fascist.

I'm NONE of those things.

I'm an independent, broadly centre-left person"

My question is biglin, does that register you as a UKIP?

Hi Mel
well I happen to believe you're politics are spot on in my view.... Centre left is the best place to be.

by biglin Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:34 pm

Ivan wrote:
For what it's worth the Lib Dems have helped to put the brakes on the the Tories.
You are joking! The Tories have handed the NHS over to their corporate backers, destroyed the welfare state, and are now busy privatising everything in sight, even police dog handlers! Far from putting a brake on the Tories, the Lib Dems have been facilitators to the most right-wing government this country has had for more than a century.

That's just paranoid bullshit and a totally dishonest and typically authoritarian attitude.

Just what you'd expect from socialists - repression, control and bigotry!

And the idea that this is the most right-wing government Britain's had for over a century could ONLY be said by someone who knows nothing about history.

The state is and always HAS been the ENEMY of the people; the history of Britain has been the story of the people fighting to get rights AGAINST the state.

Of course conservatives and socialists are both authoritarian and repressive; that's their whole raison d'etre.

And I voted Labour in 2010 (reluctantly) so you can't blame ME for putting the coalition in power.

Try and think outside the comfort zone of the brainwashed propaganda you've been exposed to by your left-wing fascist buddies.

Just like I'm constantly saying the same thing to the right on the right-wing boards I belong to.

Extremism, dogmatism, paranoia and the terrible love of authoritarianism is what makes socialists and conservatives so dangerous to democracy.

The state is the enemy, always has been and always will be.

Its powers need to be drastically curbed so the people can take control of their country.

by biglin Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:41 pm

Stox 16 wrote:
Redflag wrote:
Ivan wrote:
For what it's worth the Lib Dems have helped to put the brakes on the the Tories.
You are joking! The Tories have handed the NHS over to their corporate backers, destroyed the welfare state, and are now busy privatising everything in sight, even police dog handlers! Far from putting a brake on the Tories, the Lib Dems have been facilitators to the most right-wing government this country has had for more than a century.

Agree with what you have said Ivan, what is it that the Tories hate the public sector is it just because they can up there donors profit so the Tory party funds are boosted ??.

Hi Red
Well I sure know who I will be voting for come the next election and its the Labour party and I do not care who knows it either.

You've got every right to be closed-minded, dogmatic and regard everyone who disagrees with you as either stupid, immoral, naive or ignorant.

Of course those attitudes don't make what you say anything other than opinions rather than facts.

I still don't know who I'll vote for because I keep an open mind and sometimes it's better to have one lot in and sometimes another.

As I say, I voted Labour last time, Tory the time before, Lib Dem the time before that and Labour in 1997 (my first election).

Just think though - a CLOSED mind is an EMPTY mind because it doesn't allow you the possibility of error or of being influenced by reality.

If you want to behave like the Inquisition, the religious right in America or the Taliban and scream 'one way - one party - only one right choice' - that's fine.

I wouldn't dream of trying to tell anyone else how they should vote.

All I can say is that people like me - the floating voters - are the ones who decide elections.

And right now I'd like to hear some arguments about why I should vote Labour again instead of just the relentless football chant style sloganising.

Come on, guys; have you got the bottle to try and persuade me?

I'll help you out by saying that if there was an election tomorrow I'm divided between Lib Dem and Labour.

I don't like many policies in BOTH parties and I don't like the leaders of either one so try and persuade me.

Let's hear some rational arguments about why I should vote Labour rather than Lib Dem.

And just bleating about the NHS is not going to do it for me, by the way.

You need to try and energise your arguments a bit better than just slogans.

by KnarkyBadger Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:36 pm

Well it comes to elections I vote Left if I can but with Labour if I cant. Its not ideal voting labour as i'm a socialist (Labour certainly hasnt been that in my lifetime!) But not voting is not an option in my opinion, even if you spoil your ballot its counted, making it that tiny bit harder for the bas*****s to take away the right to vote. As for anarchism as a wise old comrade of mine always says "posing is not a political stand point!"

by blueturando Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:03 pm

Biglin........Excellent posts...the best I have read on here for a long time infact..

I am now waiting with baited breath for the responses...My guess is that the 'football chants style sloganising' is about as intellectual as you will get back, but if someone could provide viable reasons for who you 'should' vote for...not who you shouldn't...then it will be a first for cutting edge.

by Mel Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:42 pm

It seems to me biglin that your "floating voter" tactic is a complete waste of your time and has no benefit whatsoever for the party you wait to see (in your opinion) is the best of three. First you say you voted in 2005 for the Tories, they failed and so did you, correct??
Second in 2010 you say you voted Labour, they failed and so did you, correct??
Now then biglin, if you are voting Lib Dem at the next election, you will have failed yet again, correct? IMO not a lot of good you voting at all with respect as in any case you are aparently not in favour of any of the main three parties, so why bother?

I am NOT tring to tell you which party to vote for, because you obviously do not know which one if any will take your fancy at the eleventh hour.
It seems a shame if you are correct when you say it is the floating voter who decides the election. In that case if you are correct, then God help us all as we will get a government decided by ditherers. Rolling Eyes

by **Ivan** Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:44 pm

biglin. For your information, I have two degrees, one of which is in History, and would respectfully suggest that you have no idea of what fascism is. Try looking up Mussolini’s definition, he should know. It fits like a glove the transfer of much of the state from democratic accountability to corporate control which Cameron and his gang of carpetbaggers are presiding over, and which the Lib Dems are doing nothing to stop. Perhaps, as you think you know so much, you will enlighten us as to which, in your opinion, was the most right-wing government in the UK in the last century, and why?

So you voted Tory in 2005 and wanted Michael Howard to be Prime Minister? I remember what Oliver Letwin said during the campaign: “Give us five years of a Conservative government and there’ll be no such thing as the NHS.” That appealed to you, did it?

If the state is the enemy, what are the alternatives? Anarchy or control by multinational corporations, maybe rule by Rupert Murdoch? You speak like a true Tory – demonise the state and then privatise all of its functions! And you’d have to go a long way to find more “repression, control and bigotry” than we’ve had in the last two years. Yes, the British people have had to fight to gain rights from outside Parliament, as one of my heroes, Tony Benn, has long since argued. The state is not the enemy, but most of the people running it are.

Again you talk like a Tory when go on about brainwashing. That comes from the media, most of which feeds us a constant drip of right-wing propaganda because it’s owned by megarich businessmen. It’s only people on the left who seem to have sufficient critical faculties to resist the brainwashing.

The fact that you’re still a member of this forum proves you wrong on the ‘authoritarian’ remark. People have been kicked off other sites for far less than your latest rants, but we’re more tolerant and democratic in the way that moderation is handled. However, you are in breach of the rules which you signed up to when you joined us, and so I suggest you take another look at them before making any further posts:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

Maybe now we can get back to the subject of the thread?

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:46 pm

Yes, you never get any 'sloganising 'with the Conservatives ( eg moronic stuff like 'Labour Isn't Working' , 'New Labour , New Danger' ; 'If You Want a N****r For a Neighbour, Vote Labour', etc., etc.) .

And given that anybody not supporting the Tories is apparently devoid of intellect, for who else dare one vote...?

Shocked

by oftenwrong Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:37 pm

There are always some people who could start an argument in an empty room.

by Redflag Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:50 pm

tlttf wrote:Quite right melly, they do tend to move in the same circles, both went to the school of Blair politics and both know that the plebs have a political memory not exceeding 18 months, so say anything knowing people will put their own spin on it regardless.

The Tories have ruled this country until the birth of Labour, and how many Tories went to either Oxford or Cambridge the majority of them, because they always made sure the rich elite of the UK made money off the backs of what you call plebs ( which in my book is an insult) a better phrasing would have been the working man/woman.

by Stox 16 Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:57 pm

Ivan wrote:biglin. For your information, I have two degrees, one of which is in History, and would respectfully suggest that you have no idea of what fascism is. Try looking up Mussolini’s definition, he should know. It fits like a glove the transfer of much of the state from democratic accountability to corporate control which Cameron and his gang of carpetbaggers are presiding over, and which the Lib Dems are doing nothing to stop. Perhaps, as you think you know so much, you will enlighten us as to which, in your opinion, was the most right-wing government in the UK in the last century, and why?

So you voted Tory in 2005 and wanted Michael Howard to be Prime Minister? I remember what Oliver Letwin said during the campaign: “Give us five years of a Conservative government and there’ll be no such thing as the NHS.” That appealed to you, did it?

If the state is the enemy, what are the alternatives? Anarchy or control by multinational corporations, maybe rule by Rupert Murdoch? You speak like a true Tory – demonise the state and then privatise all of its functions! And you’d have to go a long way to find more “repression, control and bigotry” than we’ve had in the last two years. Yes, the British people have had to fight to gain rights from outside Parliament, as one of my heroes, Tony Benn, has long since argued. The state is not the enemy, but most of the people running it are.

Again you talk like a Tory when go on about brainwashing. That comes from the media, most of which feeds us a constant drip of right-wing propaganda because it’s owned by megarich businessmen. It’s only people on the left who seem to have sufficient critical faculties to resist the brainwashing.

The fact that you’re still a member of this forum proves you wrong on the ‘authoritarian’ remark. People have been kicked off other sites for far less than your latest rants, but we’re more tolerant and democratic in the way that moderation is handled. However, you are in breach of the rules which you signed up to when you joined us, and so I suggest you take another look at them before making any further posts:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

Maybe now we can get back to the subject of the thread?

Top draw reply that Ivan. hats off too you

by Stox 16 Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:58 pm

Redflag wrote:
tlttf wrote:Quite right melly, they do tend to move in the same circles, both went to the school of Blair politics and both know that the plebs have a political memory not exceeding 18 months, so say anything knowing people will put their own spin on it regardless.

The Tories have ruled this country until the birth of Labour, and how many Tories went to either Oxford or Cambridge the majority of them, because they always made sure the rich elite of the UK made money off the backs of what you call plebs ( which in my book is an insult) a better phrasing would have been the working man/woman.

Cannot disagree with this post Red. well said

by Stox 16 Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:04 am

Phil Hornby wrote:Yes, you never get any 'sloganising 'with the Conservatives ( eg moronic stuff like 'Labour Isn't Working' , 'New Labour , New Danger' ; 'If You Want a N****r For a Neighbour, Vote Labour', etc., etc.) .

And given that anybody not supporting the Tories is apparently devoid of intellect, for who else dare one vote...?

Well I would say the IQ of the centre left is much higher than that of the Centre right. In fact I would say name calling is very common on most right wing forums. but then this is how they debate in my own view.

by blueturando Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:09 am

The fact that you’re still a member of this forum proves you wrong on the ‘authoritarian’ remark. People have been kicked off other sites for far less than your latest rants, but we’re more tolerant and democratic in the way that moderation is handled. However, you are in breach of the rules which you signed up to when you joined us, and so I suggest you take another look at them before making any further posts:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

Maybe now we can get back to the subject of the thread?

Biglin....there you have it!!! This piece of Ivans post is all you need to know about being ‘authoritarian’. Pose a few uncomfortable questions and you get shouted down, silenced and threatened by 'the rules'...Rules which still appear to go in one direction dispite previous assurances that all is fair in the cutting edge world.....Have we turned into China here?
A very disappointing and quite shamefull response to your excellent posts

by Stox 16 Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:48 am

biglin wrote:
Stox 16 wrote:
Redflag wrote:
Ivan wrote:
For what it's worth the Lib Dems have helped to put the brakes on the the Tories.
You are joking! The Tories have handed the NHS over to their corporate backers, destroyed the welfare state, and are now busy privatising everything in sight, even police dog handlers! Far from putting a brake on the Tories, the Lib Dems have been facilitators to the most right-wing government this country has had for more than a century.

Agree with what you have said Ivan, what is it that the Tories hate the public sector is it just because they can up there donors profit so the Tory party funds are boosted ??.

Hi Red
Well I sure know who I will be voting for come the next election and its the Labour party and I do not care who knows it either.

You've got every right to be closed-minded, dogmatic and regard everyone who disagrees with you as either stupid, immoral, naive or ignorant.

Of course those attitudes don't make what you say anything other than opinions rather than facts.

I still don't know who I'll vote for because I keep an open mind and sometimes it's better to have one lot in and sometimes another.

As I say, I voted Labour last time, Tory the time before, Lib Dem the time before that and Labour in 1997 (my first election).

Just think though - a CLOSED mind is an EMPTY mind because it doesn't allow you the possibility of error or of being influenced by reality.

If you want to behave like the Inquisition, the religious right in America or the Taliban and scream 'one way - one party - only one right choice' - that's fine.

I wouldn't dream of trying to tell anyone else how they should vote.

All I can say is that people like me - the floating voters - are the ones who decide elections.

And right now I'd like to hear some arguments about why I should vote Labour again instead of just the relentless football chant style sloganising.

Come on, guys; have you got the bottle to try and persuade me?

I'll help you out by saying that if there was an election tomorrow I'm divided between Lib Dem and Labour.

I don't like many policies in BOTH parties and I don't like the leaders of either one so try and persuade me.

Let's hear some rational arguments about why I should vote Labour rather than Lib Dem.

And just bleating about the NHS is not going to do it for me, by the way.

You need to try and energise your arguments a bit better than just slogans.

Out of total interest have you ever been a member of the National Labour party? as you seem to believe that you know all about it?

by **Ivan** Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Biglin....there you have it!!! This piece of Ivan’s post is all you need to know about being ‘authoritarian’. Pose a few uncomfortable questions and you get shouted down, silenced and threatened by 'the rules'…..A very disappointing and quite shameful response to your excellent posts.

blueturando. With reference to those so-called “excellent posts”: it beggars belief that anyone could argue that it’s good if Labour wins power for a few years and takes us towards a caring society with good public services, only for it then to be good for the Tories to get in and destroy all the progress that’s been made.

I’m not really sure why you’re trying to ‘mix it’ here over something which seems very straightforward. Forumotion.com, the French site owners, disapprove of personal insults, and anyone joining this forum has to sign to say that they are aware of that. Our posting rules reiterate that remark:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

I would have thought that “paranoid bullshit”, “totally dishonest” “typically authoritarian”, “closed-minded”, “dogmatic”, “fanatic” and maybe even “someone who knows nothing about history” amount to personal insults, don’t they? But I can take care of myself, and I don’t doubt Stox and Redflag can too, so nobody’s running to Shirina and her moderation team. However, it’s still the case that the rules are being broken and it would be better if things didn’t escalate.

One of our now dormant members, who had ambitions to run for the US Senate, was kicked off a right-wing forum instantly for making one brief remark to a moderator. That’s authoritarianism. Nobody’s preventing biglin, you or anyone else from expressing your views, and nobody will ever be thrown off this forum without the approval of at least three of the five moderators.

Now, without wishing to sound “authoritarian”, just a little reminder of what this thread is about – Immigration into the UK - could there ever be a political consensus on this issue? There are other threads for discussing the relative merits of political parties.

by blueturando Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:48 am

I’m not really sure why you’re trying to ‘mix it’ here over something which seems very straightforward. Forumotion.com, the French site owners, disapprove of personal insults, and anyone joining this forum has to sign to say that they are aware of that. Our posting rules reiterate that remark:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

I would have thought that “paranoid bullshit”, “totally dishonest” “typically authoritarian”, “closed-minded”, “dogmatic”, “fanatic” and maybe even “someone who knows nothing about history” amount to personal insults, don’t they? But I can take care of myself, and I don’t doubt Stox and Redflag can too, so nobody’s running to Shirina and her moderation team. However, it’s still the case that the rules are being broken and it would be better if things didn’t escalate

Seriously Ivan? If you think these are personal insults you should try reading some of the ones directed at any poster who does not follow the Labour mantra on cutting edge. Would I take it personally...No. Would I hide behind 'The Rules'....No, never!!!
But I agree with sticking to the subject matter of any thread. If I may, in future can I point out the many times this abused, but totally ignored? Thank you

by Mel Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:23 am

blue,
Look back at the last dozen or so posts here on this thread please.
You will find there is not a sign of rule breaking until Biglin got over heated
and went for Ivan with Quote "That's just paranoid bullshit and a totally dishonest and typically authoritarian attitude.

Just what you'd expect from socialists - repression, control and bigotry!"

She refers to Ivan as a "paranoid bullshitter", as being "dishonest", an "authoritarian" and a "bigot" to boot and more.

Come on now, please stop trying to mix it up, it is not really necessary.

by ROB Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:43 am

fascism [fash-iz-uhm]
fas·cism [fash-iz-uhm]
noun
1. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism?s=t

by bobby Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:45 am

I have just read back through the last two pages, and only two posts are anywhere near on topic, even our moderators get themselves embroiled in off topic discussions. This shows clearly the need for more flexibility, as our hard working moderators are simply digging themselves into a hole that will be difficult if not impossible to get out of.

by **Ivan** Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:09 am

blueturando. At least we agree about threads going off topic! I suggest that in future if you notice a thread going awry for more than two or three posts, you bring it to the attention of the board moderator. Thanks.

by Boudica Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:33 am

To quote Terry Pratchet's Lord Vetinari, "alloys are stronger".

I have no issue with immigration, per se. People who come with desperately needed skills are vital to our economy. If you're running from life-endangering persecution, I'll make up a bed on my sofa for you.

My issue is with people who are deliberately not in work, but take from the system. As, in my experience, the people who fall in to this category are overwhelmingly white British, I have issues with the whole 'immigrants come here for the benefits' argument.
Furthermore, I also object most strongly to the 'immigrants come over here and take our jobs' tripe. We seem to be breeding a culture of 'I'm too good for that job. But I don't want a foreigner to do it either'.

Time to look closer to home?

by oftenwrong Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:40 am

Now you're introducing logic into an argument which has so far always managed without it.

by Ivanhoe Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:34 am

Boudica wrote:To quote Terry Pratchet's Lord Vetinari, "alloys are stronger".

I have no issue with immigration, per se. People who come with desperately needed skills are vital to our economy. If you're running from life-endangering persecution, I'll make up a bed on my sofa for you.

My issue is with people who are deliberately not in work, but take from the system. As, in my experience, the people who fall in to this category are overwhelmingly white British, I have issues with the whole 'immigrants come here for the benefits' argument.
Furthermore, I also object most strongly to the 'immigrants come over here and take our jobs' tripe. We seem to be breeding a culture of 'I'm too good for that job. But I don't want a foreigner to do it either'.

Time to look closer to home?

by **Ivan** Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:16 pm

Ivanhoe. It might be a good idea if you read Boudica’s post again, as you seem to have misunderstood what it was about. She’s not right-wing, she has no issue with immigrants and she doesn’t accept that they come here for the benefits. She’s no doubt as aware as you are that there isn’t a “gravy train” for them here.

Boudica has said on another thread that she teaches in a deprived area, so she’s probably encountered parents who are long-term unemployed. She makes a fair point that ‘little Englanders’ say they don’t want people coming here to take our jobs, yet many (not all) of them would be reluctant to accept menial work themselves. I’m also sure that true blue Tories wouldn’t want jobs that they consider should be done by ‘plebs’.

by Ivanhoe Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:54 pm

Boudica wrote:-
My issue is with people who are deliberately not in work, but take from the system. As, in my experience, the people who fall in to this category are overwhelmingly white British

Boudica, I have an issue with people who demonize white British people who are out of work, long term or short term. This country is full of such people. This demonizing mindset brings the country down.

by ROB Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:25 pm

Boudica,

I’ve no dog in this fight, but the scenario you paint is eerily familiar. In one of the most populous US cities, certain corners at certain intersections would, by daybreak, fill up with potential day laborers, all of whom were Mexicans or Central Americans, some of whom were legal, some of whom were illegal. Within an hour or two of daybreak, say 8:00 or 9:00 am, all had been picked up by employers in need of day to day laborers.

A “hue and “cry” arose about these laborers’ daily presence in the areas/neighborhoods where they awaited pickup. It had to do with “appearance”; “they make our neighborhood look like…”, etc. The crime rate didn’t increase because of their daily presence; no measurable damage was incurred by complaining residents whatsoever.

There were certainly racial undertones to the outcry, though no one would come out and own up to this underlying motive. Also, the same owner that complained about the day laborers’ presence on the corners at 6:00 AM had no complaints about the same laborers’ presence on their properties later that day working their tails off “on the cheap” in the employ of the homeowners’ contractors.

A park I frequented as a young adult had deteriorated into an open air illegal drug market by my mid-30s, so I crossed that park off my list of destinations. One Sunday, my family and I happened to drive by that park during the early afternoon. Much to my surprise, the drug dealers and “clients” were nowhere to be seen, replaced by Mexican and Central American families. While the women hung out around the picnic tables and bar-b-q grills and the children played around them, the men were hard at it on the grass, competing against one another in skillfully played soccer (futbol, football to you) matches which took up so much space that there was no room left for the drug peddlers. The day laborers (mostly) and their families re-claimed a park simply by acting like families ought to act on Sunday afternoon.

Illegal immigration is a serious problem in the US. We shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water as we struggle to solve this problem.

Last thought: Same city, same time period – At perhaps 90% of 7-11’s and other convenience stores, beggars wearing good shoes hassled people for handouts. We (several folks I knew) took an informal observational survey over a significant period of time to find out if we could perceive any patterns to this begging and hassling. There were several, among which was that, over several years of observation by maybe nine or ten people, not one (nada, none) of the beggars/hasslers were Mexican or Central American. Buncha white guys, buncha black guys, a few white and black females.

by Ivanhoe Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:35 pm

Boudica wrote:-
I also object most strongly to the 'immigrants come over here and take our jobs' tripe. We seem to be breeding a culture of 'I'm too good for that job. But I don't want a foreigner to do it either'.

Time to look closer to home?

Boudica, being a British person myself born and bred, I have no truck in saying that largely we British, moan, moan moan, about our living conditions, but we prefer to be nationalistic about soccer, until things affect us personally, then it's all too late.

In short we have the country and the government we deserve.

Incidently I believe the students/young people of this country have far more political awareness and fighting spirit than those in my generation, mid 60's and younger, say down to 30.

Yes immigrants come here to work at our menial jobs, but who made them menial, we did, because we have no political savvy, and no working class solidarity in this country.

Now 20 people are chasing one job, it is the dog eat dog society that Thatcher wanted.

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