Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

First topic message reminder :

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.

Boudica wrote:-
I also object most strongly to the 'immigrants come over here and take our jobs' tripe. We seem to be breeding a culture of 'I'm too good for that job. But I don't want a foreigner to do it either'.

Time to look closer to home?

Boudica, being a British person myself born and bred, I have no truck in saying that largely we British, moan, moan moan, about our living conditions, but we prefer to be nationalistic about soccer, until things affect us personally, then it's all too late.

In short we have the country and the government we deserve.

Incidently I believe the students/young people of this country have far more political awareness and fighting spirit than those in my generation, mid 60's and younger, say down to 30.

Yes immigrants come here to work at our menial jobs, but who made them menial, we did, because we have no political savvy, and no working class solidarity in this country.

Now 20 people are chasing one job, it is the dog eat dog society that Thatcher wanted.

Ivanhoe. In future, don't go and delete the contents of a message after it's been answered. It's a sneaky thing to do and it can make a nonsense of subsequent posts. Thank you.

Ivan wrote:Ivanhoe. In future, don't go and delete the contents of a message after it's been answered. It's a sneaky thing to do and it can make a nonsense of subsequent posts. Thank you.

Ivan, please accept my apologies.


Ivanhoe

Thanks.

Ivanhoe wrote:

Boudica wrote:-
My issue is with people who are deliberately not in work, but take from the system. As, in my experience, the people who fall in to this category are overwhelmingly white British

Boudica, I have an issue with people who demonize white British people who are out of work, long term or short term. This country is full of such people. This demonizing mindset brings the country down.

I'm sorry - I've obviously not made myself very clear. I was simply trying to put the alternative view that is seldom considered by many of the immigrant-loathing folks I deal with in my area.

I know many amazing white British families who work 2 or 3 jobs each to manage their financial obligations. Unfortunately, I also know several who don't and believe that cleaning, shelf-stacking and the like is below them. As a teacher, I spend my working life trying to improve the prospects of my students, many of whom are from a deprived area with an FSM rate far higher than the national average. I believe in my students and endeavour to help them to believe in themselves. I would be the last person to demonise any of our citizens, particularly in a crass generalisation.

I am a well educated woman and have worked many 'unskilled' jobs over the years. I say unskilled, but cleaning a house properly or waiting on tables well takes a whole raft of skills that simply aren't appreciated by those who've never done it.

I apologise if you find my remarks offensive.

Boudica wrote:

Ivanhoe wrote:

Boudica wrote:-
My issue is with people who are deliberately not in work, but take from the system. As, in my experience, the people who fall in to this category are overwhelmingly white British

Boudica, I have an issue with people who demonize white British people who are out of work, long term or short term. This country is full of such people. This demonizing mindset brings the country down.

I'm sorry - I've obviously not made myself very clear. I was simply trying to put the alternative view that is seldom considered by many of the immigrant-loathing folks I deal with in my area.

I know many amazing white British families who work 2 or 3 jobs each to manage their financial obligations. Unfortunately, I also know several who don't and believe that cleaning, shelf-stacking and the like is below them. As a teacher, I spend my working life trying to improve the prospects of my students, many of whom are from a deprived area with an FSM rate far higher than the national average. I believe in my students and endeavour to help them to believe in themselves. I would be the last person to demonise any of our citizens, particularly in a crass generalisation.

I am a well educated woman and have worked many 'unskilled' jobs over the years. I say unskilled, but cleaning a house properly or waiting on tables well takes a whole raft of skills that simply aren't appreciated by those who've never done it.

I apologise if you find my remarks offensive.

"""""""""I know many amazing white British families who work 2 or 3 jobs each to manage their financial obligations. Unfortunately, I also know several who don't and believe that cleaning, shelf-stacking and the like is below them. """""""""""""

Boudica, Why do you think that many British families work two & three jobs to pay their bills ?

Ivanhoe wrote:-
Ivan, please accept my apologies.

Constant dripping can wear away even the hardest stone.

As a matter of interest approx 25% of children born in the UK came from non-uk born parents. So is immigration a problem simply because we can not afford the public amenities they will require to survive?

tlttf wrote:As a matter of interest approx 25% of children born in the UK came from non-uk born parents. So is immigration a problem simply because we can not afford the public amenities they will require to survive?

And whose fault is this?

Answer. Over 30 years of right-wing rule in Britain, undermining and underfunding all of our vital services. Neither immigrants nor immigration is the problem. British Tory voters are the problem.

Can we agree with the general perception that the only time that British Tory voters engage in sex is on Saturday night after the ingestion of alcohol?

oftenwrong wrote:Can we agree with the general perception that the only time that British Tory voters engage in sex is on Saturday night after the ingestion of alcohol?

If we could only convince them that even that is far too often for right-minded people we would have a chance of wiping them out within a few generations.

On the positive side, if not for the Saturday night for the right minded the country would soon be full of inbreds.

Saturday night for the right minded the country would soon be full of inbreds

Not the way the immigrants are attacking our young women and thereby trying to breed us out of existance!

Kinda like wot the Normans tried on in the C13!

I thought that was the Vikings, astra. The genuine original Brits are all in Wales.

In 1200, in Scotland, the magistrate had the right to have first "pop" at the bride on her wedding night, hopefully making her pregnant. Loosely alluded to in Braveheart but skipped over all the same. the soldiers took the example and went full ahead with the idea

Ah, yes! The licentious soldiery. http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usebooks/lang-shorthistory/section17.html

Who shall guard The Guards?

weapons always cleaned and oiled, at the ready!

The 2011 Census figures released today form interesting reading.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2012-12-11/white-british-the-minority-in-london/

.... and here, what you've all been waiting for, is a glimpse of the Future ....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UK HEADLINES FROM THE YEAR 2030

Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions.

White minorities still trying to have English recognised as the UK 's third language.

Children from two-parent, married, heterosexual families bullied in schools for being 'different'. Tolerance urged.


Manchester schoolgirl expelled for not wearing her Burqa.

Japan announces whale meat no longer consumed as whales are now extinct, and the scientific research fleet is unemployed. UK Government has told the Japanese that Grey Squirrels taste not dissimilar to whale meat.

Britain now has ten Universities of Political Correctness. Professor Goldman of LUPC says there is still a long way to go in the fight to stop people saying what they think.

Britain 's deficit £10 trillion and rising. Government declares return to surplus in 100 years which is 300 years ahead of time. Prime Minister Mohammed Yousuf claims increased growth through more immigration is the secret to success.

Baby conceived naturally. Scientists stumped.

Iran still isolated. Physicists estimate at least ten more years before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.

France pleads for global help after being taken over by Islam. No other country comes forward.

Jose Manuel Rodrigez Bush says he will run for second term as US President in 2032.

Post Office raises price of stamps to £18 and reduces mail delivery to Wednesdays only.

After a ten-year, £75.8 billion study commissioned by the Labour Party, scientists prove diet and exercise is the key to weight loss.

Average weight of a British male drops to 18 stone.

Japanese scientists create a camera with such a seriously fast shutter speed they can now photograph a woman with her mouth shut.

Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil and human rights. Victims to be held partly responsible for crime.

Average height of professional basketball players is now nine feet, seven inches.

New law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly swatters and rolled-up newspapers must be registered by January 2035 as lethal weapons.

Inland Revenue sets lowest tax rate in decades at 75 per cent.

Bradford City win FA Cup Final, beating Hindu Hornets 4-1.

You forgot : ' Pease Pottage Conservative Club continues to defend its 'White Male only' membership policy...

Prime Minister Mohammed Yousuf declared Honorary Sahib by Pease Pottage CC Kolkota Loyal Irregulars Division. (Subject to a recount).

Good post OW.....very funny, but in some ways it may not be far from the reality

Now that I'm officially a minority perhaps the government will give me loads of perks so that my feelings won't be hurt.

Good post OW.

blueturando wrote:Good post OW.....very funny, but in some ways it may not be far from the reality

No gov't can stop EU migrants from coming in and here in the UK they have everything they need free health treatment and welfare payments and right to a home from the council, and yet if we go to their country we get S.F.A.

That's one of the issues Redflag.....There seems to be imbalance here somehow and I don't know why this is?

The question nobody seems to be able to answer is why so many Britons feel oppressed in their own Country, at the same time as thousands of foreigners desperately want to come and live here.

One of the reasons is...and there was a good example of this on Question Time last night by Will Self. Anyone who wants to have a serious discussion on immigration/migration and its impacts is labelled a Racist.....Thanks for that Will

The question nobody seems to be able to answer is why so many Britons feel oppressed in their own Country, at the same time as thousands of foreigners desperately want to come and live here.

Oppression is a matter of degree. Immigrants trying to get into Britain are even more oppressed in their nation than Britons are in theirs, but that doesn't mean Britons aren't oppressed.

Shirina wrote:

The question nobody seems to be able to answer is why so many Britons feel oppressed in their own Country, at the same time as thousands of foreigners desperately want to come and live here.

Oppression is a matter of degree. Immigrants trying to get into Britain are even more oppressed in their nation than Britons are in theirs, but that doesn't mean Britons aren't oppressed.

The free market with State intervention enslaves us. We might think we are a free country, but we are not.

Blueturando said.: One of the reasons is...and there was a good example of this on Question Time last night by Will Self. Anyone who wants to have a serious discussion on immigration/migration and its impacts is labelled a Racist.....Thanks for that Will

Dead right bluey mate. This same Will Self is the same cretin who boasted about his Father being a Conscientious objector in World War 2. He seemed to think his Father was being brave standing/skulking for his beliefs. What he failed to realise was. What was it that gave his Cowardly Father the right to skulk, whilst my Father and many like him, went of and fought. That right was earned by other Soldiers from earlier generations. it’s a bleeding good job they didn’t chose to sit on their arses whilst god knows who would have invaded us and imposed whatever rules they wanted to a defeated nation. Will Self IMHO is the biggest scumbag imaginable and shouldn’t be allowed to pollute our country and the air we breath.
Note I am not being Racist, but am being very Selfist.

bobby wrote:Blueturando said.: One of the reasons is...and there was a good example of this on Question Time last night by Will Self. Anyone who wants to have a serious discussion on immigration/migration and its impacts is labelled a Racist.....Thanks for that Will

Dead right bluey mate. This same Will Self is the same cretin who boasted about his Father being a Conscientious objector in World War 2. He seemed to think his Father was being brave standing/skulking for his beliefs. What he failed to realise was. What was it that gave his Cowardly Father the right to skulk, whilst my Father and many like him, went of and fought. That right was earned by other Soldiers from earlier generations. it’s a bleeding good job they didn’t chose to sit on their arses whilst god knows who would have invaded us and imposed whatever rules they wanted to a defeated nation. Will Self IMHO is the biggest scumbag imaginable and shouldn’t be allowed to pollute our country and the air we breath.
Note I am not being Racist, but am being very Selfist.

Immigration isnt the problem in the country, and neither are immigrants. The problem is the British, ie my own race. We had the Empire. This remains in some people's genes.

P.S. I like most of what Will Self says. The problem is in general, again again in my view, he is rarely listened to by Question Time audiences. I think he talks above their heads, they arent ready for what he says.

bobby wrote:Ivanhoe, you continualy berate the British people, so why dont you look for happiness and become someone elses immigrant.

booby, What a pathetic response.

I berate my own kind because they deserve to be berated.

We dont stand and be counted like the Greeks, the French, and the German's. We are by and large an introverted nation full of pompasity, and pretensions.

And look where it has got us !

A right wing Tory lead coalition who are driving down the role of the State in favour of privatisation and charities.

.

booby, What a pathetic response.

So you have now resorted to childish name calling, just as you did with TLTTF, and this isn't the first time you have refered to me as booby, on my keyboard the o and the b are quite a distance apart so I guess either your eyes are still phukt up or you are showing us just what a childish pratt you really are.

Can anyone provide assistance to those who wish to separate themselves from other British?

bobby wrote:.

booby, What a pathetic response.

So you have now resorted to childish name calling, just as you did with TLTTF, and this isn't the first time you have refered to me as booby, on my keyboard the o and the b are quite a distance apart so I guess either your eyes are still phukt up or you are showing us just what a childish pratt you really are.

bobby, I apologise for the error in your name.

If you want the answers to the inequality in this country read the link at the bottom?

HOW LABOUR OPENED THE DOOR TO THE BIGOTRY AND DISTRUST IN BRITAIN
Some cities have had to adapt to the change

Sunday December 16,2012
By Kirsty Buchanan

IT was a stark reminder that Lab­our’s open-door immigration policy was on a scale unprecedented in modern times. The 2011 Census confirms that in 10 years of Labour rule nearly 4 million people arrived in the UK, creating the biggest social and cultural upheaval in more than a century.


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/364977

tlttf wrote:If you want the answers to the inequality in this country read the link at the bottom?

HOW LABOUR OPENED THE DOOR TO THE BIGOTRY AND DISTRUST IN BRITAIN
Some cities have had to adapt to the change

Sunday December 16,2012
By Kirsty Buchanan

IT was a stark reminder that Lab­our’s open-door immigration policy was on a scale unprecedented in modern times. The 2011 Census confirms that in 10 years of Labour rule nearly 4 million people arrived in the UK, creating the biggest social and cultural upheaval in more than a century.


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/364977

If you think that your MOB are doing any better tittf you are DELUDED, come April you will see how unfair and nasty this shower of dick heads are, if they want everybody to work they have quite a lot of problems to solve, there is 2.51 Million unemployed so that is there first job then force employers to pay a "LIVING WAGE" so that people in work do not have to rely on benefits while WORKING, and if they can not do that if they want to bring in cuts to the benefits bill they are going to have to force food prices down the utilities companies to bring down there prices and finally the private Landlords to accept reasonable rents and not the EXORBITANT rents they are asking now.

Once again, I have no clever statisitics, but, in the area where I live, inner city, old and crumbling housing, most of my neighbours are from other nationalities. They are ususally friendly and considerate, except on occasions where unwritten rules have not been understood, clean and tidy, with well behaved children. They make the properties they live in look as niice as possible, even though usually renting at extortionate rents.
As I go out and about, I see those same neighbours, queueing for the transport to their thoroughly unpleasant jobs in the chicken factories locally, or wearing the uniforms of one or other of the caring agencies, running our local shops, spending money in our local community; in short, doing everything that is calculated to improve my neighbourhood.
I don't see why any of that is a problem.

Excellent post, boatlady. I wish more people showed your compassion and decency instead of falling prey to the "let's hate everyone" mantra of right-wingers.