Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

First topic message reminder :

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.

Excellent post, boatlady. I wish more people showed your compassion and decency instead of falling prey to the "let's hate everyone" mantra of right-wingers.

blueturando wrote:-
Anyone who wants to have a serious discussion on immigration/migration and its impacts is labelled a racist

Firstly, immigration is usually discussed by people who have a preconceived notion that immigration is a problem. By definition, all immigrants are foreigners, and this topic attracts xenophobes. That’s a short step from being a racist.

Secondly, this country has received immigrants throughout its history, but until the last sixty years virtually all of them have been white people. I doubt if those who came here when Rhodesia became Zimbabwe or when they could no longer live off the backs of black people in post-apartheid South Africa attracted much attention. When most people want to talk about immigration, they want to talk about non-white immigration, so they are being racist.

Finally, the majority of people who want to discuss immigration are racists. It’s the main topic with which people associate the BNP, a party which wants to blame immigrants for most of our ills, rather than right-wing governments which impoverish us with Friedmanite policies. The right-wing tabloids have for years tried to claim that most immigrants are bleeding the country by living on benefits, and they focus their attention on high-profile criminals like Abu Hamza. In the next breath they’re saying that immigrants have taken many of our jobs. Both scenarios can’t possibly be true, can they?

Ivan said: Finally, the majority of people who want to discuss immigration are racists.
I resent being called a racist simply because I discuss immigration. Immigration to me is when peoples from a different country move to another as did My Mother after marrying my Dad during WW2. It is very difficult if not impossible to discus immigration without the discussion involving Foreigners of one type or another.

Although I was born in London I was the subject of racism from members of my own Family, whereupon my Brother and I would be referred to as “ those Italian Kids”, This was from two of my Uncles in particular, and their treatment of we Italian Kids was never as it was to all of their other nieces and nephews as was later demonstrated after they died and the will read, but I will add, that doesn’t matter as I have much more than any of them ever did. Again I suffered racism, when I spent a bit of time living in Devon, where I was accused of nicking their jobs and putting up house prices etc. My point is you do not have to be foreign to be attacked by Racists

If we are not allowed to discus immigration because to some it is deemed as Racist, what must we do, just sit back and allow some of the unfairness that has crept into Britain go unchecked. I will use my right to free speech and will not accept being called a racist by people who know bugger all about who and what I am.

Immigration has become a problem in the UK, and sorry to attack your sensitivities but immigrants just happen to be foreign, or they wouldn’t be immigrants if they where British

Much of the discussion fails to take into account that many immigrants are people who were successful in their previous location, but forced to move for reasons of religion, politics or security-breakdown. They are usually resourceful enough to make a living in an alien environment. Not a drain on the economy, though possibly a threat to the indigent idle.

oftenwrong wrote:Much of the discussion fails to take into account that many immigrants are people who were successful in their previous location, but forced to move for reasons of religion, politics or security-breakdown. They are usually resourceful enough to make a living in an alien environment. Not a drain on the economy, though possibly a threat to the indigent idle.

"""indigent idle""" !, Where ?

It's the way he tells 'em !

oftenwrong wrote: It's the way he tells 'em !

It sure is. The trouble is, far too many British people feel the same way.

I resent being called a racist simply because I discuss immigration.

bobby. I haven’t called you or any other individual a racist; as you say I know “bugger all” about you. Ed Miliband has been talking about immigration, and I’m certain he’s not a racist. What I said was “the majority” of people who want to discuss immigration are racists – usually right-wingers who don’t live anywhere near immigrants – and I stand by that. As someone who has been on the receiving end of racism, I trust you can empathise with others facing that predicament.

Perhaps the issues that concern most people are integration and absorption. The Tories think all immigrants should speak English (even though quite a few of the indigenous population can barely do that), but they make an exception for rich foreigners buying up London properties. I wonder how many Brits who go and live in Spain can speak the language on arrival?

You can hardly blame immigrants for keeping themselves to themselves if all they receive is abuse and hostility. It may be anecdotal, but an Asian man speaking on Radio 4 yesterday said that as soon as he moved into his street, white people started moving out. If it’s only other Asian people who are prepared to live in proximity with Asians, you can hardly blame them for failing to integrate.

Maybe Ed Miliband put his finger on the problem when he said: ”The capacity of our economy to absorb new migrants was greater than the capacity of some of our communities to adapt.” You can read the whole of his recent speech here:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2012/12/full-text-ed-miliband-immigration-speech

What we mustn’t allow is the right-wing to play their usual game of divide and rule – setting the indigenous population against immigrants, just as the Tories try to distract attention from their own sick policies by trying to divide the working and unemployed poor.

Well put Ivan.

This shameful page from ‘The Daily Mail’ is typical of attempts to cause hysteria about immigration and avoid any rational discussion:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252675/Were-way-Britain-In-year-29-million-Romanians-Bulgarians-right-settle-Britain-claim-benefits-And-gipsy-community-hardly-wait-here.html

Immigration has been happening throughout our history. After the Normans conquered us in the 11th century, we had Angevins arrive in the early 13th century and an influx of Flemish weavers in the 14th century. 50,000 Huguenots (Calvinist Protestants) fled to England after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685. In the 1760s there were 15,000 Africans living in London. Indians started arriving in the 1790s and numbered 70,000 a hundred years later, most of whom were seamen. There was a steady influx of Germans throughout the 19th century (including Karl Marx!), and by the time of the 1911 Census, there were 53,000 of them here. Soon after that we had thousands of Russian Jews settling in the UK to avoid persecution.

According to the 2011 Census, the area of England and Wales with the lowest amount of immigration (and the ‘whitest’ population), and also the highest level of unemployment, is the North East. So the BNP and other nasty specimens on the right can’t blame that on “immigrants taking all the jobs”. So in what way was immigration bad for the UK during the early part of this century, when the economy was experiencing its longest period of uninterrupted growth for at least 200 years, and when crime fell by 43% during Labour’s thirteen years in office? And the global credit crunch wasn’t caused by immigrants coming to the UK.

Immigrants do tend to segregate when they arrive in a new country, which is understandable, especially if they are met with suspicion and hostility, but their children tend to integrate, especially if they attend the same schools as the indigenous youngsters. We’re told that immigrants have made our culture “worse”. Why, what are they supposed to have done? I don’t think they gave us ‘binge-drinking’, especially as the Moslem immigrants are most unlikely to drink alcohol at all.

Let’s be honest, for most readers of the Tory tabloids this is an excuse for being racist. If the only people coming to the UK were white, rich and middle class, 'Daily Mail' readers wouldn't be at all bothered about immigration.

Saw that - I did wonder whether they'd managed to expose themselves to some sort of legal action - it was, after all, a very racist piece and aren't there rules about that?

boatlady wrote:Saw that - I did wonder whether they'd managed to expose themselves to some sort of legal action - it was, after all, a very racist piece and aren't there rules about that?

We have a free press. I thought the article was disgusting. I read it online.

Ivan wrote:This shameful page from ‘The Daily Mail’ is typical of attempts to cause hysteria about immigration and avoid any rational discussion:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252675/Were-way-Britain-In-year-29-million-Romanians-Bulgarians-right-settle-Britain-claim-benefits-And-gipsy-community-hardly-wait-here.html

Immigration has been happening throughout our history. After the Normans conquered us in the 11th century, we had Angevins arrive in the early 13th century and an influx of Flemish weavers in the 14th century. 50,000 Huguenots (Calvinist Protestants) fled to England after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685. In the 1760s there were 15,000 Africans living in London. Indians started arriving in the 1790s and numbered 70,000 a hundred years later, most of whom were seamen. There was a steady influx of Germans throughout the 19th century (including Karl Marx!), and by the time of the 1911 Census, there were 53,000 of them here. Soon after that we had thousands of Russian Jews settling in the UK to avoid persecution.

According to the 2011 Census, the area of England and Wales with the lowest amount of immigration (and the ‘whitest’ population), and also the highest level of unemployment, is the North East. So the BNP and other nasty specimens on the right can’t blame that on “immigrants taking all the jobs”. So in what way was immigration bad for the UK during the early part of this century, when the economy was experiencing its longest period of uninterrupted growth for at least 200 years, and when crime fell by 43% during Labour’s thirteen years in office? And the global credit crunch wasn’t caused by immigrants coming to the UK.

Immigrants do tend to segregate when they arrive in a new country, which is understandable, especially if they are met with suspicion and hostility, but their children tend to integrate, especially if they attend the same schools as the indigenous youngsters. We’re told that immigrants have made our culture “worse”. Why, what are they supposed to have done? I don’t think they gave us ‘binge-drinking’, especially as the Moslem immigrants are most unlikely to drink alcohol at all.

Let’s be honest, for most readers of the Tory tabloids this is an excuse for being racist. If the only people coming to the UK were white, rich and middle class, 'Daily Mail' readers wouldn't be at all bothered about immigration.

Great post, Ivan. Another thing I think gets missed is the positive impact socially - and I mean way beyond melas and other kinds of festivals. My next-door neighbours are Pakistani, and there are periods where we almost live in each other's houses. If they find out my wife is working late or night shifts, they're invariably at the door with food, we have a huge laugh together - in short they're fantastic neighbours and enrich our lives. And the food is fantastic

I know it's becoming almost fashionable to bash 'multiculturalism', but I think the UK would be a poorer place if we were all anglo-saxon.

Oh, and their Christmas tree is bigger than ours, so they're doing their bit to assimilate...!

skwalker1964, Any chance you could take over as Editor of the Daily Mail?

Ivanhoe wrote:skwalker1964, Any chance you could take over as Editor of the Daily Mail?

Ha, somehow I don't think they'd like me at all!

To sum up. A dickhead is a dickhead regardless of colour or creed it comes packaged in.

Immigration has never been a problem, it's non integration that highlights differences and causes problems. The perception being that a foreigner arrives on the doorstep and is instantly housed and fed while we have indigenous people homeless.

You know what really frightens me bobby? All this immigrant bashing on this site.

This is how the Klan started in the mid South in the 1960's. This is how Hitler's Nazi's started.

It might not sound much just to hear one person talk negatively about immigrants and Asylum seekers. But shit sticks. And before we know where we are, we are back to Nazi descrimination.

There is a song in the musical South Pacific. Its called "Carefully Taught". If you havent listened, listen to it. It hits the nail right on the head.

Its not the immigrants we have a problem with its Governments and the EU that allowed uncontrolled immigration into our over crowded cities. We do not have the infrastructure, jobs or finances to support this. Immigrants are just trying to make a better life for themselves...Governments make the working class pay for it in so many ways

Must say I agree with both Blue and bobby on this subject. The facts are that the infrastructure we have in place can only cope with so much (hence cuts partially). As always when the subject arises most people fail to see that it's the lower paid working man/woman that ends up at the sh*t end of the stick.

QUOTE: "the EU that allowed uncontrolled immigration into our over crowded cities."

That's a two-way street. Any British National is entitled to seek work in any of the other EU Countries and may draw the local unemployment benefit as well as entitlement to Health benefits etc., just like a local resident.

But if we can't be a high-status Brain Surgeon, Bank Manager, or Company Director when we get there, we apparently don't want to be anything.

tlttf wrote:Must say I agree with both Blue and bobby on this subject. The facts are that the infrastructure we have in place can only cope with so much (hence cuts partially). As always when the subject arises most people fail to see that it's the lower paid working man/woman that ends up at the sh*t end of the stick.

What about the argument for more immigration? We're ageing, our birth rate is too low and some people think we won't be able to afford to look after our pensioners because there won't be enough working-age people.

I think there's potentially a strong argument for being more restrictive about the qualifications of people who come in - for the very reason of protecting low-paid jobs for those who are already in them or want them - but it's by no means the case that immigration has been a negative for this country.

Alf Garnett has a lot to answer for!

oftenwrong wrote:Alf Garnett has a lot to answer for!

You silly, moooo

skwalker1964 wrote: .... We're ageing, our birth rate is too low and some people think we won't be able to afford to look after our pensioners because there won't be enough working-age people....

Well, there's a coincidence!

The same fate awaits China.
Sooner. Because of Chairman Mao's restriction on family size at a maximum of two children per couple.

Just thinking about the question of immigration and whether it's associated with criminal behaviour - I don't claim a lot of knowledge of the issue, only my own experiences and feelings to go on,but ----
I do remember when Brits started going abroad for cheap foreign holidays, and found the bars and cafes in Spanish resorts were open day and night and selling alcohol, which you could sit out on a terrace and drink, not in a smoky scruffy old pub. I think quite often, English tourists interpreted that particular social norm as a permission to get bladdered every day, and behave in a loutish manner on account of being drunk. Many a young man has been surprised to spend a night in a Spanish jail because he didn't really understand the customs of a country where public drinking is not the same thing as public drunkenness.

Maybe sometimes people from other countries coming to England, with an imperfect knowledge of the language and not much experience of local customs, may sometimes make mistakes about what is and is not acceptable behaviour?

I don't know - it's just a question

Clearly there is a sharp learning-curve for anyone that finds themselves in a foreign country, and the sensible ones keep a low profile while they are acclimatising themselves. It really is comical for British to complain about immigrants - the only Nation more multi-cultural than us is the USA.
At School, children rapidly learn that to stand out is to invite trouble, so the bright ones adopt the protective camouflage of being just the same as everyone else.
The sheer illogicality of disliking "immigrants" as a generality is that we are often not even aware of any difference unless the individual has dark skin or a funny name. Frequently, the main objection seems to be that they are doing too well for themselves.

Which brings things back to simple envy.

Reality check!!

Told to leave 4 times - but migrant still gets a home
AN illegal immigrant from Nigeria who has been ord­ered out of Britain four times won the right yesterday to a council home and state handouts while she fights the latest bid for deportation.

http://beta.dailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk/371791/Told-to-leave-4-times-but-migrant-still-gets-a-home

What would the right-wing do to attract votes if it didn't have tabloid anecdotes to fuel the prejudices of the brainwashed and ignorant?

It has always been easier to blame the filthy foreigner for our shortcomings, and English History is full of instances of initial resentment of newcomers going on to profit from their knowledge or experience .

I don't have anything against immigrants or immigration, per se, but I do think there is a big problem when immigration policies allow a nation to be turned into a massive flophouse for people who have no real plans for their lives. This goes double when the immigrants have no real love of their new nation or its culture. All too often, they just want to move in to use the benefits while ignoring the culture, language, and sometimes even the laws of their new home.

In the US, yeah, we get millions of illegals coming in from Central and South America. There are so many now that even our presidential elections are influenced by the number of Latinos living here - some legally, some not. I have no issues with those who obtained citizenship the right way, as I did. I came to this country legally, and once I arrived, I became an American. I didn't just "raid the refrigerator" and ignore what being an American entailed. When I arrived in Britain, I busted my hump to learn English and now I speak and write it better than most natives!

Here, in the land of for-profit health care, I have to use a free clinic because this neuropathy nailed me just as I was coming out of grad school. No money. No job. No insurance. Here's what gets me. I have to wait months between appointments and even when I get an appointment, it is not unusual to sit in a packed waiting room for hours on end because the staff is overwhelmed by the number of patients. Even sitting there for hours, I don't hear a single word of English. Not one person. Not one. Even the television is tuned to a Spanish-speaking station. The signs are in Spanish. The magazines are in Spanish. North Carolina is nowhere near the border yet I feel like I'm not even in America anymore.

What bothers me is knowing that many of them are probably here in the US illegally. I can't prove that, but according the statistics, it's a safe bet. The clinic only asks for proof of residency in the county, not if you're a US citizen. Now, I'm not saying these people should be denied treatment. That would be inhumane. But I won't lie and say it doesn't bother me because it does. The fact that I have to wait so long between appointments and specialists have to be booked months in advance. In fact, I had to wait an entire YEAR to even be admitted because they weren't taking any new patients. It's frustrating knowing that I'm standing in a very long line consisting of so many illegals when I fought tooth and nail to get into this country legally. In some ways, I feel like a sucker for obeying the law - and we certainly don't encourage these people to assimilate by giving them everything in Spanish to the point where I, the English-speaking American, can't understand a word of anything being said anywhere in the building.

" ..it is not unusual to sit in a packed waiting room for hours on end because the staff is overwhelmed by the number of patients. .."

Protestations about immigrants soaking up the British benefits system usually ignore the reciprocal facility which British people enjoy when they go to live elsewhere in the European Community. Hundreds of thousands of British people now live in Spain, which has a better climate. They tend to make full use of the medical facilities, especially those who have retired, and the local Spanish people resent having to wait in queues full of Brits in order to see their Doctor.

What is your story in terms of migration, Shirina? UK first from ? and then to the US, what ages etc?

"...local Spanish people resent having to wait in queues full of Brits in order to see their Doctor."


(foxnews.com)

" Now, Senor Smeeth - apart from the fact you are British, what appears to be the problem...?"

Phil Hornby wrote:"...local Spanish people resent having to wait in queues full of Brits in order to see their Doctor."


(foxnews.com)

" Now, Senor Smeeth - apart from the fact you are British, what appears to be the problem...?"

Es que tengo un dolor agudo del monedero, Señor médico. I have a severe pain in the wallet, Doctor

Woman and daughter from East Europe receive £16000 p.y. in benefits. She will not work as 'we have a good life here'. This is all too familiar to most of us.

The OAP got a basic £102 pw pension last year if they had full points. Made up by means tested benefits to a higher figure - various. This is to go to a basic £144 pw in 2015. Undoubtedly other benefits will be reduced.

£16000 v £7250.

We can't even give our own people to a 'living' standard after a lifetime of working for the country, yet allow others to benefit at our expence.

Immigration. Bah Humbug.

Ivan wrote:What would the right-wing do to attract votes if it didn't have tabloid anecdotes to fuel the prejudices of the brainwashed and ignorant?

I am neither brainwashed not ignorant. Nor am I right 'winged'. I live among ordinary people who have to fight for 'rights' they have earned over 56 years of work as did their forebears. I am fully aware that there are many immigrants who work to earn a living. I am also aware of the millions we spend to sustain those who don't. Millions that our own population desperately need.

I realise the quote was not directed at my post. However I believe the point made is valid. Your 'tabloid anecdotes' are too often the tip of the iceberg.

[quote="bobby"][color=blue]Another point IMHO is that if an illegal immigrant is prepared to hang under a Lorry or any other means of transport to get here for no other reason than they want some of what we have and they don’t have.

If they are prepared to do that in order to get here, does that not tend to support the idea that they are desperate to escape an unbearable situation? And if you or I faced such a situation, wouldn't we want to escape it? There but for the grace of God go we, and while recognising the need for some control over the situation, we should keep a very humble attitude about it and stretch our reserves of hospitality and human kindness to the utmost to help.

If the indigenous population all earned a decent wage, more money would be paid to the exchequer to pay for the vital services, which then wouldn’t be under the pressures they are now. Its not always about nationalities, but also and more likely IMO about numbers.

Which is exactly why the Tories - and Farage - make noise about immigration but have no intention of really doing anything about it. Mass immigration - or anything else which results in a surplus labour force - forces down wages and the 'wealth creators' rake it in even more. Regular bank of England reports and papers by right-wing think tanks say it quite openly.