Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Page 8 of 15 Previous  1 ... 5 ... 7, 8, 9 ... 11 ... 15  Next

Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivan on Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Writing for ‘Compass’ in July this year, Lisa Nandy MP said: “For most of my lifetime, politics has been based on a belief that the only way to win elections is to seek out the centre ground, but it is surely an essential plank of a democracy that politicians should provide leadership and not just follow; as Robin Archer of the LSE says, to seek to define and not just seek the centre ground”. She continued by saying that people on the left in politics have to tackle the issues which make us feel uncomfortable – welfare reform, law and order and immigration.
http://www.compassonline.org.uk/news/item.asp?n=13151&offset=50

Let’s tackle the issue of immigration. The right-wing press has been indoctrinating us for years with claims that most immigrants are living on benefits, while at the same time saying that they’ve taken many of our jobs, and of course both scenarios can’t possibly be true. We’re told that the country is already overcrowded; it’s not, only S.E. England is, although we are now the most densely populated country in Europe. We’re told that immigration increases crime (our prisons do indeed hold a disproportionate number of people who weren’t born here) and increases the threat to our security. By increasing the labour force, does immigration suppress wage levels?

In the 1970s, the National Front used to peddle the spurious argument that as there were a million people unemployed in the UK at the time, all we had to do was repatriate a million immigrants and there would be no unemployment. Anyone with half a brain can work out that by reducing the population by a million, you would have a million fewer consumers to buy goods and services, thereby reducing demand and creating unemployment. There would also be a million fewer taxpayers (even those not working pay VAT).

So why have successive UK governments over the last fifty years allowed and even encouraged immigration?
Not out of charity but out of necessity. Firstly, to do jobs which the indigenous population didn’t want to do, or didn’t have the skills to do. The NHS would have collapsed years ago without immigrant doctors and nurses. Secondly, Europe has a declining birth rate, which is threatening to make it difficult to pay for pensions for future generations. Most immigrants are of working age, which means they consume less of the services provided by the state, such as health care and education, and pay more in taxes. Home Office research in 2002 suggested that immigrants paid £2.5bn more in taxes than they took in benefits.

Perhaps if more of us showed a positive attitude to immigrants, welcoming and celebrating diversity instead of perceiving it as ‘a problem’, immigrants might feel less of a need to retreat into ghettos, where some of them succumb to religious fanaticism and terrorism.


Last edited by Ivan on Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down


Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivan on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:18 am

Excellent post, boatlady. I wish more people showed your compassion and decency instead of falling prey to the "let's hate everyone" mantra of right-wingers.

Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivan on Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:20 am

blueturando wrote:-
Anyone who wants to have a serious discussion on immigration/migration and its impacts is labelled a racist
Firstly, immigration is usually discussed by people who have a preconceived notion that immigration is a problem. By definition, all immigrants are foreigners, and this topic attracts xenophobes. That’s a short step from being a racist.

Secondly, this country has received immigrants throughout its history, but until the last sixty years virtually all of them have been white people. I doubt if those who came here when Rhodesia became Zimbabwe or when they could no longer live off the backs of black people in post-apartheid South Africa attracted much attention. When most people want to talk about immigration, they want to talk about non-white immigration, so they are being racist.

Finally, the majority of people who want to discuss immigration are racists. It’s the main topic with which people associate the BNP, a party which wants to blame immigrants for most of our ills, rather than right-wing governments which impoverish us with Friedmanite policies. The right-wing tabloids have for years tried to claim that most immigrants are bleeding the country by living on benefits, and they focus their attention on high-profile criminals like Abu Hamza. In the next breath they’re saying that immigrants have taken many of our jobs. Both scenarios can’t possibly be true, can they?
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by bobby on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:41 pm

Ivan said: Finally, the majority of people who want to discuss immigration are racists.
I resent being called a racist simply because I discuss immigration. Immigration to me is when peoples from a different country move to another as did My Mother after marrying my Dad during WW2. It is very difficult if not impossible to discus immigration without the discussion involving Foreigners of one type or another.

Although I was born in London I was the subject of racism from members of my own Family, whereupon my Brother and I would be referred to as “ those Italian Kids”, This was from two of my Uncles in particular, and their treatment of we Italian Kids was never as it was to all of their other nieces and nephews as was later demonstrated after they died and the will read, but I will add, that doesn’t matter as I have much more than any of them ever did. Again I suffered racism, when I spent a bit of time living in Devon, where I was accused of nicking their jobs and putting up house prices etc. My point is you do not have to be foreign to be attacked by Racists

If we are not allowed to discus immigration because to some it is deemed as Racist, what must we do, just sit back and allow some of the unfairness that has crept into Britain go unchecked. I will use my right to free speech and will not accept being called a racist by people who know bugger all about who and what I am.

Immigration has become a problem in the UK, and sorry to attack your sensitivities but immigrants just happen to be foreign, or they wouldn’t be immigrants if they where British
bobby
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:48 pm

Much of the discussion fails to take into account that many immigrants are people who were successful in their previous location, but forced to move for reasons of religion, politics or security-breakdown. They are usually resourceful enough to make a living in an alien environment. Not a drain on the economy, though possibly a threat to the indigent idle.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:54 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Much of the discussion fails to take into account that many immigrants are people who were successful in their previous location, but forced to move for reasons of religion, politics or security-breakdown. They are usually resourceful enough to make a living in an alien environment. Not a drain on the economy, though possibly a threat to the indigent idle.

"""indigent idle""" !, Where ?
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe
Deactivated

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:16 pm

Laughing It's the way he tells 'em !
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:19 pm

oftenwrong wrote: Laughing It's the way he tells 'em !

It sure is. The trouble is, far too many British people feel the same way.
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe
Deactivated

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivan on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:06 pm

I resent being called a racist simply because I discuss immigration.
bobby. I haven’t called you or any other individual a racist; as you say I know “bugger all” about you. Ed Miliband has been talking about immigration, and I’m certain he’s not a racist. What I said was “the majority” of people who want to discuss immigration are racists – usually right-wingers who don’t live anywhere near immigrants – and I stand by that. As someone who has been on the receiving end of racism, I trust you can empathise with others facing that predicament.

Perhaps the issues that concern most people are integration and absorption. The Tories think all immigrants should speak English (even though quite a few of the indigenous population can barely do that), but they make an exception for rich foreigners buying up London properties. I wonder how many Brits who go and live in Spain can speak the language on arrival?

You can hardly blame immigrants for keeping themselves to themselves if all they receive is abuse and hostility. It may be anecdotal, but an Asian man speaking on Radio 4 yesterday said that as soon as he moved into his street, white people started moving out. If it’s only other Asian people who are prepared to live in proximity with Asians, you can hardly blame them for failing to integrate.

Maybe Ed Miliband put his finger on the problem when he said: ”The capacity of our economy to absorb new migrants was greater than the capacity of some of our communities to adapt.” You can read the whole of his recent speech here:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2012/12/full-text-ed-miliband-immigration-speech

What we mustn’t allow is the right-wing to play their usual game of divide and rule – setting the indigenous population against immigrants, just as the Tories try to distract attention from their own sick policies by trying to divide the working and unemployed poor.
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:50 pm

Well put Ivan.
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe
Deactivated

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivan on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:22 pm

This shameful page from ‘The Daily Mail’ is typical of attempts to cause hysteria about immigration and avoid any rational discussion:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252675/Were-way-Britain-In-year-29-million-Romanians-Bulgarians-right-settle-Britain-claim-benefits-And-gipsy-community-hardly-wait-here.html

Immigration has been happening throughout our history. After the Normans conquered us in the 11th century, we had Angevins arrive in the early 13th century and an influx of Flemish weavers in the 14th century. 50,000 Huguenots (Calvinist Protestants) fled to England after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685. In the 1760s there were 15,000 Africans living in London. Indians started arriving in the 1790s and numbered 70,000 a hundred years later, most of whom were seamen. There was a steady influx of Germans throughout the 19th century (including Karl Marx!), and by the time of the 1911 Census, there were 53,000 of them here. Soon after that we had thousands of Russian Jews settling in the UK to avoid persecution.

According to the 2011 Census, the area of England and Wales with the lowest amount of immigration (and the ‘whitest’ population), and also the highest level of unemployment, is the North East. So the BNP and other nasty specimens on the right can’t blame that on “immigrants taking all the jobs”. So in what way was immigration bad for the UK during the early part of this century, when the economy was experiencing its longest period of uninterrupted growth for at least 200 years, and when crime fell by 43% during Labour’s thirteen years in office? And the global credit crunch wasn’t caused by immigrants coming to the UK.

Immigrants do tend to segregate when they arrive in a new country, which is understandable, especially if they are met with suspicion and hostility, but their children tend to integrate, especially if they attend the same schools as the indigenous youngsters. We’re told that immigrants have made our culture “worse”. Why, what are they supposed to have done? I don’t think they gave us ‘binge-drinking’, especially as the Moslem immigrants are most unlikely to drink alcohol at all.

Let’s be honest, for most readers of the Tory tabloids this is an excuse for being racist. If the only people coming to the UK were white, rich and middle class, 'Daily Mail' readers wouldn't be at all bothered about immigration.

Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by boatlady on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:33 pm

Saw that - I did wonder whether they'd managed to expose themselves to some sort of legal action - it was, after all, a very racist piece and aren't there rules about that?
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:57 pm

boatlady wrote:Saw that - I did wonder whether they'd managed to expose themselves to some sort of legal action - it was, after all, a very racist piece and aren't there rules about that?
We have a free press. I thought the article was disgusting. I read it online.
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe
Deactivated

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by skwalker1964 on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:02 pm

Ivan wrote:This shameful page from ‘The Daily Mail’ is typical of attempts to cause hysteria about immigration and avoid any rational discussion:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2252675/Were-way-Britain-In-year-29-million-Romanians-Bulgarians-right-settle-Britain-claim-benefits-And-gipsy-community-hardly-wait-here.html

Immigration has been happening throughout our history. After the Normans conquered us in the 11th century, we had Angevins arrive in the early 13th century and an influx of Flemish weavers in the 14th century. 50,000 Huguenots (Calvinist Protestants) fled to England after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685. In the 1760s there were 15,000 Africans living in London. Indians started arriving in the 1790s and numbered 70,000 a hundred years later, most of whom were seamen. There was a steady influx of Germans throughout the 19th century (including Karl Marx!), and by the time of the 1911 Census, there were 53,000 of them here. Soon after that we had thousands of Russian Jews settling in the UK to avoid persecution.

According to the 2011 Census, the area of England and Wales with the lowest amount of immigration (and the ‘whitest’ population), and also the highest level of unemployment, is the North East. So the BNP and other nasty specimens on the right can’t blame that on “immigrants taking all the jobs”. So in what way was immigration bad for the UK during the early part of this century, when the economy was experiencing its longest period of uninterrupted growth for at least 200 years, and when crime fell by 43% during Labour’s thirteen years in office? And the global credit crunch wasn’t caused by immigrants coming to the UK.

Immigrants do tend to segregate when they arrive in a new country, which is understandable, especially if they are met with suspicion and hostility, but their children tend to integrate, especially if they attend the same schools as the indigenous youngsters. We’re told that immigrants have made our culture “worse”. Why, what are they supposed to have done? I don’t think they gave us ‘binge-drinking’, especially as the Moslem immigrants are most unlikely to drink alcohol at all.

Let’s be honest, for most readers of the Tory tabloids this is an excuse for being racist. If the only people coming to the UK were white, rich and middle class, 'Daily Mail' readers wouldn't be at all bothered about immigration.

Great post, Ivan. Another thing I think gets missed is the positive impact socially - and I mean way beyond melas and other kinds of festivals. My next-door neighbours are Pakistani, and there are periods where we almost live in each other's houses. If they find out my wife is working late or night shifts, they're invariably at the door with food, we have a huge laugh together - in short they're fantastic neighbours and enrich our lives. And the food is fantastic Smile

I know it's becoming almost fashionable to bash 'multiculturalism', but I think the UK would be a poorer place if we were all anglo-saxon.

Oh, and their Christmas tree is bigger than ours, so they're doing their bit to assimilate...!
skwalker1964
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:59 pm

skwalker1964, Any chance you could take over as Editor of the Daily Mail?
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe
Deactivated

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by skwalker1964 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:25 am

Ivanhoe wrote:skwalker1964, Any chance you could take over as Editor of the Daily Mail?

Ha, somehow I don't think they'd like me at all! Smile
skwalker1964
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by tlttf on Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:19 am

To sum up. A dickhead is a dickhead regardless of colour or creed it comes packaged in.

Immigration has never been a problem, it's non integration that highlights differences and causes problems. The perception being that a foreigner arrives on the doorstep and is instantly housed and fed while we have indigenous people homeless.

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Immigration

Post by bobby on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:19 pm

I remember back in around 1968/9 when the Barking Council did a deal with the Government and the Ford Motor Company, If Fords could guarantee Certain West Indians a job, Barking Council would guarantee them a home, irrespective of the allready large waiting lists. This sort of deal was being done all over the place.

Before anyone says anything, I knew personally some of the West Indians who benefitted from this deal.
bobby
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:41 pm

You know what really frightens me bobby? All this immigrant bashing on this site.

This is how the Klan started in the mid South in the 1960's. This is how Hitler's Nazi's started.

It might not sound much just to hear one person talk negatively about immigrants and Asylum seekers. But shit sticks. And before we know where we are, we are back to Nazi descrimination.

There is a song in the musical South Pacific. Its called "Carefully Taught". If you havent listened, listen to it. It hits the nail right on the head.
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe
Deactivated

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by blueturando on Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:47 pm

Its not the immigrants we have a problem with its Governments and the EU that allowed uncontrolled immigration into our over crowded cities. We do not have the infrastructure, jobs or finances to support this. Immigrants are just trying to make a better life for themselves...Governments make the working class pay for it in so many ways

blueturando
Banned

Posts : 1203
Join date : 2011-11-21
Age : 52
Location : Jersey CI

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by bobby on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:37 pm

Hello Bluey. I'm not sure what’s happening here but I am again finding myself in partial agreement with you.

Why are peoples attitudes so emotive about the subject of immigration, why do some see the discussing of immigration as a taboo subject, the reason for that is I believe racism, many link the two subjects together. As far as I am concerned there is absolutely no link between the two. For me its purely a matter of numbers and quality.

The British people are basically a very moderate people, everything is moderate about us, our aggression, our acceptance of most things ( I mean we even talk to the yanks), the weather, the animal life that inhabits Britain and even the creatures in the sea around us, nothing is extreme and get up every morning wanting to kill us. We enjoy a country that is very easy to live in.

What gets me a tad upset is when other people come to this Country for no other reason than they have failed in their own, then set about turning this Country into a copy of the shit hole they have left. Like you Bluey I accept anyone coming to Britain who come and enhance Britain, but why the bloody hell we have to like unbridled immigration, is beyond me. As you so eloquently put they are coming to our already crowded cities and putting a strain on our infrastructure.

I totally agree that any immigrant that commit’s a crime should be repatriated immediately and allowed to fight his/her appeal from wherever they came from and at their own expense, any immigrant who is unemployed for more than 6 months without previously paying taxes in the UK for a minimum of 5 years should be repatriated.

We simply can not take in the worlds wastrels, what we need to do is the same as Australia and cherry pick those who want to live here. We are a small island made of Rock, not an elasticated island able to stretch to make every one fit.

There is nothing party political in this, and certainly not racist , its just facing reality and looking at the numbers.
bobby
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by tlttf on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:43 pm

Must say I agree with both Blue and bobby on this subject. The facts are that the infrastructure we have in place can only cope with so much (hence cuts partially). As always when the subject arises most people fail to see that it's the lower paid working man/woman that ends up at the sh*t end of the stick.

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:58 pm

QUOTE: "the EU that allowed uncontrolled immigration into our over crowded cities."

That's a two-way street. Any British National is entitled to seek work in any of the other EU Countries and may draw the local unemployment benefit as well as entitlement to Health benefits etc., just like a local resident.

But if we can't be a high-status Brain Surgeon, Bank Manager, or Company Director when we get there, we apparently don't want to be anything.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by skwalker1964 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:04 pm

tlttf wrote:Must say I agree with both Blue and bobby on this subject. The facts are that the infrastructure we have in place can only cope with so much (hence cuts partially). As always when the subject arises most people fail to see that it's the lower paid working man/woman that ends up at the sh*t end of the stick.

What about the argument for more immigration? We're ageing, our birth rate is too low and some people think we won't be able to afford to look after our pensioners because there won't be enough working-age people.

I think there's potentially a strong argument for being more restrictive about the qualifications of people who come in - for the very reason of protecting low-paid jobs for those who are already in them or want them - but it's by no means the case that immigration has been a negative for this country.
skwalker1964
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:41 pm

Alf Garnett has a lot to answer for!
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivanhoe on Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:48 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Alf Garnett has a lot to answer for!

You silly, moooo
Ivanhoe
Ivanhoe
Deactivated

Posts : 937
Join date : 2011-12-11

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:35 pm

skwalker1964 wrote: .... We're ageing, our birth rate is too low and some people think we won't be able to afford to look after our pensioners because there won't be enough working-age people....

Well, there's a coincidence!

The same fate awaits China.
Sooner. Because of Chairman Mao's restriction on family size at a maximum of two children per couple.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by bobby on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:02 pm

Steve, that is exactly the point Bluey, tlttf and myself are trying to make.

As things are you only need watch the news and it seems that the vast majority of violent crime in the UK are committed by non indigenous people, now I don’t know and can not speak for the reporters of these crimes to ascertain as to whether they are simply mud slinging or if it is a fact and most violent crime is committed by these people.

You only have to look at places such as New Addington, there is a very large estate, that due to the amount of immigrants living there, most of the original residents are now desperate to be re-housed, It is now so bad that even murder especially if it is between the immigrants, doesn’t even make the local news let alone the National news, yet if we English, say anything about it we are called racists and other vile things.

You may recall the Stephen Lawrence Murder, within a week of that happening my Friends grand Daughter was sexually assaulted by a mixed race gang in Eltham, not far from the place of the murder, I went with my friend to report it to the Police, we even had the names of the kids involved, as they where local kids, yet we was told that due to the nature of the assault (it was simply a case of grabbing the young girls private parts and putting the fear of Christ up them) it wasn’t deemed in the public interest to pursue the case. One of the coppers who was as disgusted as us told us, they the Police where scared shitless of taking action that could cause racial tension in the area. Fear not though Steve my mate and I found the miscreants and gave them a jolly good telling off.

These and many more cases is why many people including myself, have a problem with unfettered immigration, and think we should very carefully vet any applicant that wants to come here, to allow people in simply because some law says they are allowed is no better to me than Laws and rules that allow our political leaders and leaders of industry to rip us off daily with expenses of Tax dodging.

To me the subject of immigration is emotive as it has effected me or mine personally. Yet we see how easy it is for those who haven’t been effected to call foul when we voice our opinion.
bobby
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by boatlady on Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:32 pm

Just thinking about the question of immigration and whether it's associated with criminal behaviour - I don't claim a lot of knowledge of the issue, only my own experiences and feelings to go on,but ----
I do remember when Brits started going abroad for cheap foreign holidays, and found the bars and cafes in Spanish resorts were open day and night and selling alcohol, which you could sit out on a terrace and drink, not in a smoky scruffy old pub. I think quite often, English tourists interpreted that particular social norm as a permission to get bladdered every day, and behave in a loutish manner on account of being drunk. Many a young man has been surprised to spend a night in a Spanish jail because he didn't really understand the customs of a country where public drinking is not the same thing as public drunkenness.

Maybe sometimes people from other countries coming to England, with an imperfect knowledge of the language and not much experience of local customs, may sometimes make mistakes about what is and is not acceptable behaviour?

I don't know - it's just a question
boatlady
boatlady
Former Moderator

Posts : 3832
Join date : 2012-08-24
Location : Norfolk

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:17 pm

Clearly there is a sharp learning-curve for anyone that finds themselves in a foreign country, and the sensible ones keep a low profile while they are acclimatising themselves. It really is comical for British to complain about immigrants - the only Nation more multi-cultural than us is the USA.
At School, children rapidly learn that to stand out is to invite trouble, so the bright ones adopt the protective camouflage of being just the same as everyone else.
The sheer illogicality of disliking "immigrants" as a generality is that we are often not even aware of any difference unless the individual has dark skin or a funny name. Frequently, the main objection seems to be that they are doing too well for themselves.

Which brings things back to simple envy.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by tlttf on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:58 am

Reality check!!

Told to leave 4 times - but migrant still gets a home
AN illegal immigrant from Nigeria who has been ord­ered out of Britain four times won the right yesterday to a council home and state handouts while she fights the latest bid for deportation.

http://beta.dailyexpress.co.uk/news/uk/371791/Told-to-leave-4-times-but-migrant-still-gets-a-home

tlttf
Banned

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Ivan on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:11 am

What would the right-wing do to attract votes if it didn't have tabloid anecdotes to fuel the prejudices of the brainwashed and ignorant?
Sleep
Ivan
Ivan
Administrator (Correspondence & Recruitment)

Posts : 7321
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : West Sussex, UK

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:56 am

It has always been easier to blame the filthy foreigner for our shortcomings, and English History is full of instances of initial resentment of newcomers going on to profit from their knowledge or experience .
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Shirina on Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:10 pm

I don't have anything against immigrants or immigration, per se, but I do think there is a big problem when immigration policies allow a nation to be turned into a massive flophouse for people who have no real plans for their lives. This goes double when the immigrants have no real love of their new nation or its culture. All too often, they just want to move in to use the benefits while ignoring the culture, language, and sometimes even the laws of their new home.

In the US, yeah, we get millions of illegals coming in from Central and South America. There are so many now that even our presidential elections are influenced by the number of Latinos living here - some legally, some not. I have no issues with those who obtained citizenship the right way, as I did. I came to this country legally, and once I arrived, I became an American. I didn't just "raid the refrigerator" and ignore what being an American entailed. When I arrived in Britain, I busted my hump to learn English and now I speak and write it better than most natives!

Here, in the land of for-profit health care, I have to use a free clinic because this neuropathy nailed me just as I was coming out of grad school. No money. No job. No insurance. Here's what gets me. I have to wait months between appointments and even when I get an appointment, it is not unusual to sit in a packed waiting room for hours on end because the staff is overwhelmed by the number of patients. Even sitting there for hours, I don't hear a single word of English. Not one person. Not one. Even the television is tuned to a Spanish-speaking station. The signs are in Spanish. The magazines are in Spanish. North Carolina is nowhere near the border yet I feel like I'm not even in America anymore.

What bothers me is knowing that many of them are probably here in the US illegally. I can't prove that, but according the statistics, it's a safe bet. The clinic only asks for proof of residency in the county, not if you're a US citizen. Now, I'm not saying these people should be denied treatment. That would be inhumane. But I won't lie and say it doesn't bother me because it does. The fact that I have to wait so long between appointments and specialists have to be booked months in advance. In fact, I had to wait an entire YEAR to even be admitted because they weren't taking any new patients. It's frustrating knowing that I'm standing in a very long line consisting of so many illegals when I fought tooth and nail to get into this country legally. In some ways, I feel like a sucker for obeying the law - and we certainly don't encourage these people to assimilate by giving them everything in Spanish to the point where I, the English-speaking American, can't understand a word of anything being said anywhere in the building.
Shirina
Shirina
Former Administrator

Posts : 2232
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Right behind you. Boo!

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:51 pm

" ..it is not unusual to sit in a packed waiting room for hours on end because the staff is overwhelmed by the number of patients. .."

Protestations about immigrants soaking up the British benefits system usually ignore the reciprocal facility which British people enjoy when they go to live elsewhere in the European Community. Hundreds of thousands of British people now live in Spain, which has a better climate. They tend to make full use of the medical facilities, especially those who have retired, and the local Spanish people resent having to wait in queues full of Brits in order to see their Doctor.
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by skwalker1964 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:52 pm

What is your story in terms of migration, Shirina? UK first from ? and then to the US, what ages etc?
skwalker1964
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Phil Hornby on Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:04 pm

"...local Spanish people resent having to wait in queues full of Brits in order to see their Doctor."


Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcnKu-cz6ps8y-Fqj1ltLxwhXIboW2jEfgDPJ35BuPEyJdpvjlLg(foxnews.com)

" Now, Senor Smeeth - apart from the fact you are British, what appears to be the problem...?"
Phil Hornby
Phil Hornby
Blogger

Posts : 4002
Join date : 2011-10-07
Location : Drifting on Easy Street

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by oftenwrong on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:43 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:"...local Spanish people resent having to wait in queues full of Brits in order to see their Doctor."


Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTcnKu-cz6ps8y-Fqj1ltLxwhXIboW2jEfgDPJ35BuPEyJdpvjlLg(foxnews.com)

" Now, Senor Smeeth - apart from the fact you are British, what appears to be the problem...?"

Es que tengo un dolor agudo del monedero, Señor médico. I have a severe pain in the wallet, Doctor
oftenwrong
oftenwrong
Sage

Posts : 12062
Join date : 2011-10-08

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:01 pm

Woman and daughter from East Europe receive £16000 p.y. in benefits. She will not work as 'we have a good life here'. This is all too familiar to most of us.

The OAP got a basic £102 pw pension last year if they had full points. Made up by means tested benefits to a higher figure - various. This is to go to a basic £144 pw in 2015. Undoubtedly other benefits will be reduced.

£16000 v £7250.

We can't even give our own people to a 'living' standard after a lifetime of working for the country, yet allow others to benefit at our expence.

Immigration. Bah Humbug.


trevorw2539
trevorw2539

Posts : 1374
Join date : 2011-11-03

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by bobby on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:54 pm

What worries me about unchecked and limitless immigration is as Shirina put it. We do not get the best from other countries but more commonly the worst. We get those who can not make it in their own country.

Another point IMHO is that if an illegal immigrant is prepared to hang under a Lorry or any other means of transport to get here for no other reason than they want some of what we have and they don’t have. Just what lengths do you think that same person will go to if he/she decides they like your car, TV, surround sound DVD player etc. They have demonstrated their courage as well as their desperation in the lengths they are prepared to go to, to get here. The problem isn’t just ours, Several years ago my Nonna and two aunties lived in the very affluent town of Frascati just outside Rome, they lived in a Villa in an area which was walled and guarded by security camera’s plus a security camera on each villa with an alarm that went direct to the police. What started to happen was gangs of Albanians went around the estate armed with guns and pepper sprays, they would simply knock on the door and as soon as they are aware of a presence inside, knock the door in, pepper spray anything that moved, people and dogs, then very quickly take what they wanted especially cash and left.

My family especially being three females felt totally unsafe and frightened, sold the Villa and went back to Rimini, the city of their birth.

My point is that immigration should not be turned into a racial argument, it just happens that immigrants happen to be foreign, or lets face it if they weren’t they wouldn’t be immigrants would they. And that those who need to use illegal methods of getting here are usually more desperate than a trained Doctor who comes here legally to a pre prepared life with a job and a home.

As for the argument that we need more immigrants to work and pay for our growing and aging population, perhaps if we never had so many immigrants who are prepared to work for next to nothing, many legal as well as illegal, the strain on our services wouldn’t be under such pressure that we then need these people to work, it’s the chicken and the egg thing.

If the indigenous population all earned a decent wage, more money would be paid to the exchequer to pay for the vital services, which then wouldn’t be under the pressures they are now. Its not always about nationalities, but also and more likely IMO about numbers.
bobby
bobby

Posts : 1939
Join date : 2011-11-18

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by trevorw2539 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:05 pm

Ivan wrote:What would the right-wing do to attract votes if it didn't have tabloid anecdotes to fuel the prejudices of the brainwashed and ignorant?
Sleep

I am neither brainwashed not ignorant. Nor am I right 'winged'. I live among ordinary people who have to fight for 'rights' they have earned over 56 years of work as did their forebears. I am fully aware that there are many immigrants who work to earn a living. I am also aware of the millions we spend to sustain those who don't. Millions that our own population desperately need.

I realise the quote was not directed at my post. However I believe the point made is valid. Your 'tabloid anecdotes' are too often the tip of the iceberg.
trevorw2539
trevorw2539

Posts : 1374
Join date : 2011-11-03

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by skwalker1964 on Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:27 pm

[quote="bobby"][color=blue]Another point IMHO is that if an illegal immigrant is prepared to hang under a Lorry or any other means of transport to get here for no other reason than they want some of what we have and they don’t have.

If they are prepared to do that in order to get here, does that not tend to support the idea that they are desperate to escape an unbearable situation? And if you or I faced such a situation, wouldn't we want to escape it? There but for the grace of God go we, and while recognising the need for some control over the situation, we should keep a very humble attitude about it and stretch our reserves of hospitality and human kindness to the utmost to help.

If the indigenous population all earned a decent wage, more money would be paid to the exchequer to pay for the vital services, which then wouldn’t be under the pressures they are now. Its not always about nationalities, but also and more likely IMO about numbers.

Which is exactly why the Tories - and Farage - make noise about immigration but have no intention of really doing anything about it. Mass immigration - or anything else which results in a surplus labour force - forces down wages and the 'wealth creators' rake it in even more. Regular bank of England reports and papers by right-wing think tanks say it quite openly.
skwalker1964
skwalker1964

Posts : 819
Join date : 2012-05-15

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com

Back to top Go down

Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’? - Page 8 Empty Re: Should immigration always be perceived as ‘a problem’?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 8 of 15 Previous  1 ... 5 ... 7, 8, 9 ... 11 ... 15  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum