Commonwealth 'network for future'

by Phoenix One UK Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:23 am

First topic message reminder :

Commonwealth 'network for future'

pa.press.net, Updated: 28/10/2011 05:55

...

Asked whether the Commonwealth was outdated, he said: "It is an organisation for the future. We live in a world of networks and this is a great network: a third of the world's population, 54 different countries across six continents. But not just a network, a network with values about promoting human rights and democracy and freedom.

For full text link: http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/commonwealth-network-for-future-8

Unquote: =======================

This debate was started within another forum the date this article was published.

note [Foreign Secretary William Hague] said, ''We want to see the Commonwealth strengthening its role as a standard bearer for human rights and democracy. It remains uniquely placed to do so; the sheer diversity of its membership gives it the potential to speak with a truly global moral authority.''

Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/8854601/David-Cameron-Commonwealth-must-strengthen-human-rights.html

Unquote.

Note Commonwealth nations are pushing to establish a system of export and credit guarantees designed to promote trade and growth for the poorer countries in the 54-member organization.

Quote:

Leaders from the group, which owes its origins to the former British Empire, have met this week in Perth where many hope Europe's financial crisis and growing concerns over growth will lend the meeting renewed relevance, especially among developing nations. Commonwealth countries account for a third of world's population and five of its members sit on the Group of 20 nations.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203554104577002922751910902.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Unquote.

Note you can acquire a great deal of information directly from the Commonwealth Secretariat's website on

Link: http://www.thecommonwealth.org/

I also noted some europhiles here are pushing the trade arguement as being a benefit of being an EU member. Not so, that argument was shot down in flames long ago.

Here is a direct link to the World Trade Organisation: http://www.wto.org/

If you visit the membership listed therein, note all 27 EU members are als members of the WTO, including Greece. Not one requires the EU for trade, and never did.

by oftenwrong Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:04 pm

QUOTE: ".... it's perfectly acceptable for Britain to pound away at French towns and villages with Lancaster bombers in advance of the invasion of Normandy

A policy insisted upon by General Eisenhower as a prerequisite of US Forces going onto the invasion beaches in Normandy codenamed
Sword Beach
Juno Beach
Gold Beach
Omaha Beach
Pointe du Hoc
and Utah Beach

by Guest Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:08 pm

Shirina,

Shirina wrote:
Even today, urban warfare, or house-to-house fighting is considered one of the worst forms of warfare. The second worst fear when the Iraq war began was that Saddam would pull his army into Baghdad and turn the fight into a slug-fest. Prevailing doctrine in 1943 was to instead level the towns and villages from the air. Guess what, that was Britain's doctrine, as well.

... they were not all Roman Catholic volunteers... any Roman Catholic pilot was free to opt out of the mission.

It was believed that Monte Casino was filled with Germans who were sitting up there informing Kesselring and other field commanders every move American forces were making.

Italy was still an occupied nation... WWII was not fought with today's morality...

... Bomber Harris was pushing to continue terror-bombing German cities. Churchill stood back and allowed Coventry to be leveled to avoid alerting the Germans that their Enigma code had been broken.

Excellent and accurate factual information. Thank you for your exceptional scholarship.

by Guest Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:34 pm

Humanist wrote:
Hmmm, no mention of my Indian cousins then? I find this on many occasions. The whole India thing has always been played down, I suggest that people visit Brighton and the sites there with links to WWII. Visiting these sorts of places are rather moving at the best of times, but hey its an eye opener.

jackthelad wrote:
India is a member of the commonwealth nations, i don't think anyone forgets India's role in the second world war. Two million Indians fought in that war, in Europe as well as Asia, against the Japanese. British troops, survivers of Dunkirk were sent to India. I know that for a fact because two of my uncles were sent there before being transfered to Burma, they were part of the 14 Army (the Forgotten Army).

Humanist, Jackthelad,

I am guilty of what both of y’all have noted, and there’s no excuse for my omission of the noble and absolutely courageous Indian soldiers who sacrificed so much to oppose tyranny and make the world safe for democracy. My inadequate but sincere apologies, and thank y’all both for your admonishment.

jackthelad wrote:
Didn't see any European countries laying wreaths at the Cenotaph this morning, they were all Commonwealth countries.

Wow.

Your poppy day is our veterans day. Know that your service members are remembered throughout the US on both 11 November and the last Monday in May, Memorial Day.

I’ve started a personal campaign to encourage my countrymen and countrywomen to remember 15 September, for it was on that date in 1940 that the tide was turned against Hitler, Goering, and the rest of the Nazi beasts in the skies over your island. As Churchill said, “there are bitter weeds in England”, and the “so few”, through their courage and dedication, caused the mighty Nazi war machine to choke on those weeds.

15 September 1940: “Never have so many owed so much to so few.” We need to actively remember, on both sides of the pond, lest we forget.

by **astradt1** Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:57 pm

"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Exact words.................

by Shirina Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:45 pm

I am guilty of what both of y’all have noted, and there’s no excuse for my omission of the noble and absolutely courageous Indian soldiers who sacrificed so much to oppose tyranny and make the world safe for democracy.

Unfortunately, Rock, many of the battles fought after the fall of Singapore have been all but forgotten. They are not taught in most history courses, not when there is Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Saipan, the Philippines, Coral Sea, and Midway to teach. Thus we hear very little about the "Flying Tigers" and General Chenault who helped make it the only Allied unit anywhere on any front scoring victories during the darkest days of WWII. We forget about Merrill's Marauders, and we forget about the tiny but important battles fought by British and Indian Commonwealth troops to maintain control of the Burma Road.

The contribution of India is often forgotten. Perhaps the victors of WWII chose to ignore India as it always seemed on the cusp of ejecting Britain out of its lands. When you have two factions opposing you (Gandhi and Chandra Bose), perhaps there was some resentment - especially over the Tiger Legion which fought against the Allies at Imphal, Kohima, and in many skirmishes in Burma and Malaya. Fortunately the Indian people had no wish to trade one occupier for another - and the British were far gentler masters than the Japanese would have been - so Bose received less support. Incidentally, one of the last official declarations of war made in WWII was when the Provisional Government of India, led by Chandra Bose, formally declared war on the United States.

Putting the Indian contribution to the war in the spotlight ultimately places Chandra Bose, The Tiger Legion, and the Provisional Government's mutiny against the British in the spotlight, as well.

by **astradt1** Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:00 pm

There is one group of soldiers from the Indian subcontinent who have not been mentioned but have given sterling service to Britain for a couple of hundered years and continue to do so they are the Gurkhas..

Here is a list of those who won the Victoria Cross, with it's simple "For Valour" inscription, during the Second World War, along with those from India

Premindra Bhagat Corps of Indian Engineers 31 January 1941 to 1 February 1941 Gallabat, Abyssinia

Bhanbhagta Gurung 2nd Gurkha Rifles 5 March 1945 Tamandu, Burma

Lachhiman Gurung 8th Gurkha Rifles 12–13 May 1945 Taungdaw, Burma

Thaman Gurung 5th Gurkha Rifles 10 November 1944* Monte San Bartolo, Italy

Abdul Hafiz 9th Jat Infantry 6 April 1944* Imphal, India

Ali Haidar 13th Frontier Force Rifles 9 April 1945 Fusignano, Italy

Namdeo Jadav Maratha Light Infantry 9 April 1945 Senio River, Italy

Karamjeet Judge 15th Punjab Regiment 1945-03-1818 March 1945* Meiktila, Burma[

Ganju Lama 7th Gurkha Rifles 12 June 1944 Ningthoukhong, India

Tul Pun 6th Gurkha Rifles 23 June 1944 Mogaung, Burma

Agansing Rai 5th Gurkha Rifles 26 June 1944 Bishenpur, India

Bhandari Ram 10th Baluch Regiment 22 November 1944 Arakan, Burma

Chhelu Ram 6th Rajputana Rifles 19–20 April 1943* Djebel Garci, Tunisia

Kamal Ram 8th Punjab Regiment 12 May 1944 River Gari, Italy

Richhpal Ram 6th Rajputana Rifles 7 February 1941 Keren, Eritrea

Sher Shah 16th Punjab Regiment 19–20 January 1945* Kyeyebyin, Burma

Gian Singh 15th Punjab Regiment 2 March 1945 Myingyan, Burma

Nand Singh Sikh Regiment 11–12 March 1944 Maungdaw–Buthidaung Road, Burma

Parkash Singh 8th Punjab Regiment 6 January 1943 Donbaik, Burma

Prakash Singh 13th Frontier Force Rifles 16–17 February 1945* Kanlan Ywathit, Burma

Ram Singh 1st Punjab Regiment 25 October 1944* Tiddim, Burma

Umrao Singh 81st West African Division 15–16 December 1944 Kaladan Valley, Burma

Lalbahadur Thapa 2nd Gurkha Rifles 5–6 April 1943 Rass-es-Zouai, Tunisia

Netrabahadur Thapa 5th Gurkha Rifles 25–26 June 1944 Bishenpur, India

Sher Thapa 9th Gurkha Rifles 1944-09-1818–19 September 1944* San Marino, Italy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Second_World_War_Victoria_Cross_recipients

Strange how the "tiny but important battles" and "skirmishes in Burma" generated so many VC recipiants?

Awarded for "... most conspicuous bravery, or some daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice, or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy.

by Humanist Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:35 pm

I saw a film called the Dance of Shiva based around a group of Indian soldiers in WWI. Stars Sanjeev Bhaskar, Paul McGann and Kenneth Branagh. Great movie, I'm a Bhaskar fan and found him playing a serious role stimulating.

Unfortunately, these peoples contribution was played down over the years, but as time goes on we start to realise this. There was a program made called "Not Forgotten - Soldiers of Empire" presented by Ian Hislop. This left enough of a mark on me to visit the places he spoke about, bit of a pet subject of mine. You know what, I still have an atlas somewhere showing the Commonwealth countires!

As regards Sharina's points about Chandra Bose and Ghandi, we need to face facts about the behaviour of the governing bodies in India, the oppression, the violence and loss of life. Both these people were for liberation, and rightly so. One was for armed struggle and the other used a non-violent approach, the restis history.

Astra, fascinating people the Gurkhas. I hope one day to visit this area of the world, I'm looking to get to India next year and to see Amritsar and Lahore this time round. But I do have my eyes on Nepal for the future though.

My Grandfather served in India and spoke hindi, begrudgingly. My old fella was born in Gujarat and spoke the language fluently. He served in Kenya and also spoke swahila, kikuyu, urdu and punjabi. He had a gift for languages both written and spoken. I had a multi ethnic, multi faith, and a multi lingual upbringing around the Commonwealth.

The UK fought for Europe, but the Commonwealth fought for this country.

Namaste. . . .

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:27 am

astradt1
wrote:"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Exact words.................

Thank you, Astradt. It is of personal importance to get the exact quote, as passing that quote on to others on this side of the pond is on of my obsessive pursuits.

In 2010, in a modest auditorium, on the fifteenth day of September, a teacher of children was seated. The opportunity presenting itself, I spoke briefly of the significance of 15 September 1940, sharing with the assembled congregation the fact that, on that date seventy years prior, world democracy was saved.

The teacher of children approached me afterward, thanking me for reminding her of the sacrifices of those few men who refused to bow down to evil, who refused to take heir rest, who refused to fly any fewer sorties than were required to beat back Goering’s herds just one more day, just one more hour, just one more minute. She promised me that her elementary school students would, through her, know of these men, and know that, except for their largely unheralded efforts, they would not be living in a democracy today.

This teacher also expressed frustration that these same children were fully aware of cinco de mayo, a Mexican celebration of events that have no bearing on the existence of the United States today. Fifteenth of September vs. cinco de mayo, which event guaranteed that the Western democracies would at least have a fighting chance to defeat, in Churchill’s words, “the beast?”

From memory, to test myself: “Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.”

Took two trials to get it exact; it will be exact in my mind, from my lips, and from my virtual pen forevermore. Once again, thank you.

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:50 am

Astradt1, Shirina, Humanist,

Thank all of y’all for the excellent information.

The Victoria Cross (VC) is the highest military decoration awarded for valour "in the face of the enemy" to members of the armed forces of various Commonwealth countries, and previous British Empire territories.

It takes precedence over all other orders, decorations and medals. It may be awarded to a person of any rank in any service and to civilians under military command.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross

The Victoria Cross came into existence by Queen Victoria signing the Royal Warrant instigating the award on the 29th January…

http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/

Commonwealth 'network for future' - Page 3 Victcross_15279_lg

Commonwealth 'network for future' - Page 3 Victcross_15279_lg

by bobby Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:44 am

The Victorial Cross medal are said to be struck from the metal taken from the cannons at Sebastopol in the Crimea.

by jackthelad Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:28 pm

Bobby is right, the Victoria Cross are made from cannons captured in the Crimean war. The number of VC won by the Gurkha's if they where weighed in for scrap, at today's scrap metal prices, would make them rich men.
The British people are proud of the Gurkha's, these little men from Nepal, who have fought for us and with us for over 200 years. It is a pity our government doesn't think about them in the same way, now if there are to be any cuts in the army, the Gurkha regiments are first in the fireing line. They are reluctent to pay them the same wages as British born soldiers, and untill there was a public outcry, reluctant to let them settle here. Even now they have to have served for a number of years before they can. Yet they are allowing all sorts of riff fraff, undesireables, and people who do not respect our customs and religion to come and live here.
I watched our little Gurka brothers on the TV's 90 years rememberance service, the Gurkha Regimental band, 6 Gurka soldiers doing some sort of a dance with their famouse knives, a bit like the Maori war dance. To cap it all two Gurkha pipers playing the bagpipes, well enough to make the Scottish pipers proud.
All in all, they were smart, clever, and bloody brilliant.

by bobby Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:42 pm

Sharina Last Friday I said Lastly (for now), well the now has arrived. In Sept 1944, My Grandfather took My Nonna, Mother and her 3 sisters to the hill town of Pennabilly, which was around a 35 mile walk. as they didn't know what they would be returning to, if indeed they returnrd, they had to carry all they could, or leave it in Rimin making it a difficult 35 mile walki. Pennabilly was not a German stronghold and was a place of refuge from the fighting that was going on in the City of Rimini itself. My Grandfather Giuseppe went to collect my yougest Aunti Edgarda from a makeshift school, when out of now where bombs started to rain down, He got my Auntie back to their lodgings and foolishly went back out to look for their dog, whilst out in the air raid he had a heart attack. When he was found his hair had turned completely white, but allas he was dead. My Family knew it was a US air attack because of the tactics involved. All of my Family and other Italians I know personaly have allways said that when the Germans bombed, they usualy bombed military targets, as they didn't have much left at that time in the way of petrol and other military resourses, so couldn't afford to throw the stuff around like confetti, some civilians obveously got cought up an died as a result. When the British bombed, they came in quite low, meaning it was easier for them to pin point their targets, and yes some Italian civilians got cought out and died. But when the USAF bombed, they came over at such a high altitude that bo one knew they where there till the bombs where actually exploding. My Grandfather who I never got to know because of an American air attack on an Italian Town full of Italian Civilians, a full year after Italy signed the armistice and where at that time Allies.
I wonder Sharina, what would your attitude be if some Japanese landed in New York, and Britain sent over squadrons of Avro Lancasters and Bombed New York to buggery, then said, it was right for us to do so because New York was an occupied City. You as an American may see a difference between this scenario and the carpet bombing of inhabited Italian villages, towns and cities. But I dont.
Its all very easy for a people who never suffered a World War being fought in their, country, where the air raid sirens where only sounded in exersises, or at the end of the war by way of celebration.

As for me evidencing American Attrocities,

The My Lai Massacre

The worst case of an American war crime was the massacre at My Lai, on 16 March 1968, in the aftermath of the Tet Offensive. The village and surrounding area were assaulted to clear Viet Cong known to be operating in the area. A company of soldiers from Americal Division, following ill-defined orders and rules of engagement, murdered 400 to 500 Vietnamese civilians. The court martial transcripts are sickening to read as they include the indiscriminate execution of men, women, babies and children along with sexual assault and other brutality perpetrated upon the victims, individually and in groups. A second massacre of ninety to one hundred civilians occurred in the neighboring hamlet of Co Luy at the same time.
The action at My Lai was initially classified as a victory with a claim that 128 enemy combatants had been killed. After reports of atrocities were filed by military witnesses, an informal investigation amounted to a cover-up, finding that a small number of civilian deaths had occurred, but that they had been unavoidable. The investigating officer stated, "The allegation that US Forces shot and killed 450-500 civilians is obviously a Viet Cong propaganda move to discredit the United States in the eyes of the Vietnamese people." Nothing further was done until after 2 April 1969, when a soldier-witness mailed a letter detailing the My Lai Massacre to thirty prominent people in Washington, D.C. -- including President Nixon, the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Senators and Congressmen. The media latched onto the story and a public firestorm began as the U.S. was subjected to worldwide criticism. On 24 November 1969, the Secretary of the Army ordered an independent inquiry into the massacre that eventually brought all the facts to light.

The despicable acts were done by average American boys in a normal unit. What explanation can there be? Several factors have been suggested by investigators:
Command responsibility: inexperienced leadership, ambiguous orders, lack of control during the operation
Callousness and fear developed from experiences of cruelty and deviousness at the hands of enemy combatants or civilians cooperating with them
Dehumanizing of Vietnamese by racial attitudes
Insensitivity due to high civilian casualties caused by bombardment
Misplaced objectives due to "body count" as a success metric

All of these and more contributed to the My Lai Massacre, but cannot excuse it.

Regarding Friendly Fire.
The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that 35 of the 148 American servicemen and women who perished on the battlefield in the Persian Gulf War were killed inadvertently by their comrades, an extraordinary proportion by historical standards and more than three times the number previously acknowledged.

"Friendly fire," or accidental attacks on U.S. troops by other U.S. troops, also accounted for 72 of 467 Americans wounded in action, according to a summary released of a comprehensive assessment by the military services. Senior officers who briefed reporters yesterday withheld nearly all details of the 28 friendly fire incidents, including the names of the casualties, their specific units below division levels and most of the circumstances of their deaths and injuries.

Accounting for more than 23 percent of the Americans killed in action and 15 percent of the wounded, friendly fire now appears to have caused about 10 times as high a percentage of U.S. battle casualties in the gulf as in any other 20th-century war. Though the military has not gathered official statistics before on such cases, a widely cited 1986 Army study by Lt. Col. Charles R. Shrader suggested that friendly fire caused "a statistically insignificant portion of total casualties" from World War I to Vietnam, "perhaps less than 2 percent."

This isn't me ranting. The article comes from the "Washington Post, August 14, 1991.

As for Abysinia and equally Libya earlier. Totaly despicable acts and those responsible should have faced the ultimate penalty, or if they where Americans perhaps they would have recieved the CMH.

by jackthelad Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:13 pm

Sorry Rock if you thought i was admonishing you, certainly not my intension. I was only pointing out that we in Britain have not forgotten the part India played in helping to defeat the the might of Germany and Japan. Now, i suppose must say, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, since India got it's independance, Pakistan and Bangladesh got their independance from India. Nevertheless, they are all members of the Commonwealth of Nations, off which we are part of. I prefer being allied to this tried and trusted mob, than the European Union, what in my opinion seems to be run by France and German.

by Shirina Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:06 pm

In Sept 1944

All I can say at this point is that 67 years is a long time to hold on to such bitterness - bitterness so profound as for you to make the searing proclamation, "I will never be a brother to Americans." While what happened to your family was tragic, one mustn't forget that Germany and Italy started the war. In fact, as I've said in previous discussions, WWII was simply the culmination to over 1000 years of perpetual warfare. It occurs to me to ask whether or not you would deem to call a German - or another Italian for that matter - a "brother" while shunning Americans, none of whom wanted to be there in the first place, and wouldn't have been there if not for Italy and Germany.

You see, whoever dropped those bombs was not aiming to kill your grandfather. In fact, the pilot didn't kill him. He had a heart attack. But what Hitler and Mussolini did - and by default the people who supported them - was done deliberately. America should not be your great white whale upon which you heap the sum of your anger, regrets, or hatred. That's just plain old bigotry. You asked me how I would feel if Britain bombed New York, well, let me put it to you this way. I lost someone very dear to me when I was 17 years-old to a terrorist bombing in India. This was someone I knew, someone tangible and not merely a thought of what "could have been." I let it go because I could have just as easily milked the anger I felt and convinced myself never to call a Muslim "brother." Then I could point out every last terrorist attack, every detonated bomb, every hijacking, every hostage crisis and say, "See? That is why I will hold over a billion people responsible!"

But I didn't do that. My life is a lot more peaceful because of it. I am sure your grandfather would have wanted the same for you.

by jackthelad Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:22 pm

Bobby appears to have a bee in his bonnet about indiscriminate killing by the Americans. It does appear that the Americans are a bit gung ho at times, and a have bombed or straffed the wrong targets at times, friendly troops as well as there own. But i would not say it was a deliberate action on their part, not like Herman Georing's luftwaffa, who indiscrimenately bombed London, Coventry, and other English towns and cities. His intensions was to bomb us into submission, only it worked the opposit way, it madeus more stubborn than ever. The blitzcrieg failed, and permenently damaged the German airforce with it's plane loss and casualties.
The Americans did drop two bombs indiscriminately, one on Hiroshima, the other on Nagasaki, killing thousands of civilians, but in the long run that action probably saved millions of lives, both Japanese and American. War is a nasty cruel business, unlike cricket, you can't always play fair.
I was born 8 years before the war, so i still have a vivid reflection of the German bombing, and saw our retaliation later when American Flying Fortresses bombed Germany during the day, and our Lancaster bombers bombed them at night, we lived under the flight path, saw them go and saw them come back. Sadly some wasn't in has a good conditition coming back as they were going, some were leaving a trail of smoke. One even crash landed near our village, 50 yards short of the first row of houses, it was guarded by the police and Home Guard, you know who i mean, the Dads Army.

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:31 pm

jackthelad wrote:
Sorry Rock if you thought i was admonishing you, certainly not my intension.

Jack, I didn’t take you “admonishment” negatively. Sometimes the English language is inadequate, such as in this case in which “admonish” is as close as I can get. In fact, my brother, I appreciate more than I can say in words your comments, because the heroes you highlighted deserve our everlasting gratitude.

Perhaps Shirina can fill in some details, but that Burma war is often “forgotten”, and its “omission” in our recalled history needs to be corrected.

As for me personally, given a few experiences with so-called “scholars” who disdained and intentionally omitted mention of significant portions of US history, British history, and world history in undergraduate classes, like a certain professor that held a bachelors degree from Harvard, a masters degree from Yale, a masters degree from Oxford, a doctorate degree from Columbia, and a doctorate degree from Cambridge, who, speaking directly to me and two other students, in the presence of the president of the institution of higher learning, said (substantively correct quote), “There isn’t enough Black history extant to warrant even one class, much less a course of study”, I’ve no excuse whatsoever for excluding such a significant portion of British history, world history, and, because of the overarching impact of World War II, US history, from discussions to which I contribute, on his forum and anywhere else.

Thanks to you, Humanist, and Astradt1, the story is now being told hereon, and these heroes are being recognized as they should. Thank you.

jackthelad wrote:
I was only pointing out that we in Britain have not forgotten the part India played in helping to defeat the might of Germany and Japan.

And you’ve done so in excellent fashion. Again, thank you.

jackthelad wrote:
I prefer being allied to this tried and trusted mob, than the European Union, what in my opinion seems to be run by France and German.

With the exception of Pakistan, I agree. My perception of Pakistan since 1989 is “colored” by a certain event in May of that year, so I might just possibly be a bit biased.

That being said, this old adage seems apt: “Dance with who brung ya.”

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:48 pm

Bomber Command and the USAAF 8th Air Force had fundamentally different philosophies and tactics. Bomber Command sent in its Lancs and other hardware at night, relatively low, and saturated an area with as much tonnage as they could muster, which with the Avro Lancaster was quite a bit indeed. In fact, only the Lanc could carry the “blockbuster” bombs, one about 11,000 ponds, one about 22,000 pounds. I’ll call upon Shirina to correct this info and provide dead-on accurate details.

Meanwhile, the 8th Air Force relied upon the famous, or infamous, Norden bomb sight, which purportedly could deliver bombs with precision. Ube of the Norden required daylight operations, so US bombers came in high, believing that the Norden would deliver the much smaller payloads of American bombers (particularly the B-17) with pinpoint accuracy.

Compared to modern bombers (including strike fighters/attack aircraft), the inaccuracy of both tactics was mind-boggling.

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:08 pm

jackthelad wrote:
The Americans did drop two bombs indiscriminately, one on Hiroshima, the other on Nagasaki, killing thousands of civilians, but in the long run that action probably saved millions of lives, both Japanese and American.

Actually, the two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were “discriminate”, intentional. And not only did their use save American and Japanese lives, their use saved British lives, Aussie lives, Kiwi lives, Gurkha lives, Indian lives as well. After Germany’s defeat, the UK began transferring its military assets to the Pacific theater, where RN carriers saw significant action, and where these carriers’ metal decks taught the USN a thing or two about survivability.

Harry S Truman, agonizing over his decision to unleash hell in August of 1945, was asked a question. “If you don’t authorize their use, what will you say at your impeachment trial?” As commander-in-chief, Truman was legally obligated to preserve American lives and morally obligated to preserve allied lives.

jackthelad wrote:
I was born 8 years before the war, so i still have a vivid reflection of the German bombing, and saw our retaliation later when American Flying Fortresses bombed Germany during the day, and our Lancaster bombers bombed them at night, we lived under the flight path, saw them go and saw them come back. Sadly some wasn't in has a good conditition coming back as they were going, some were leaving a trail of smoke. One even crash landed near our village, 50 yards short of the first row of houses, it was guarded by the police and Home Guard, you know who i mean, the Dads Army.

God bless you, Jack. I didn’t know that you lived through that horror. Please request of Ivan the honor of creating your own “blog” about those events you know first hand. You are a precious primary resource, of which there are but a few, and your testimony would certainly help me in my understanding of a world war that played out before I was born.

by bobby Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:08 pm

Sharina said
All I can say at this point is that 67 years is a long time to hold on to such bitterness.
You may think so, but as My Grandfathers death is directly attributable to the USA, as He and the entire population of Pennabilli was bombed by the USAF at a time when Italy was allied to the USA and no Germans or the remainder of Italian Fascists where any where near Pennabilli, I find it inexcusable, yet you in your callousness seem to think it was OK because there may or may not have been some Germans around. The callousness I speak of is in answer to you crass statement:
You see, whoever dropped those bombs was not aiming to kill your grandfather. In fact, the pilot didn't kill him. He had a heart attack.
He never had a known heart condition and was a large fit man, I am 6'2" tall and apparently take after him. He didn't need to die and had those American polots been doing their jobs right, it wouldn't have happened. One of my Aunties reconed they probably dropped their bombs anywhere so as not to take them back to their airfield, This I can fully understand as you can hardly land aircraft with full payloads of bombs. If that was the case, they where only around 30 miles as the crow flies to the coast, and could just as easily dropped the bombs in the sea. But they didn't, for whatever reason they dropped them on an unarmed, non beligarent hill top Village, killing many along side my Nonno.
Your remark re the Germans. Again in 1944, two of my mothers cousins where thought to have been partisans (they in fact where), they where duly arrested and condemned to be shot. On the day of the execusions they with some others where put in front of a wall, in Piazza Tre Matre (ironically translates to Three Martyrs Square) in Rimini and shot. My Mother and all the rest of my family had to attend the execusions, as did the relatives of the others shot. Yes I hate the German SS for their string of attrocities, but at least they had the excuse in this instance that they where shooting the enemy. My point is now. If the Germans saw Italians as the enemy after the armistice of 8th sept 1943, why do you still see them as the enemy at the same time. It seems to me that they where seen as legitimate targets by both Germany and You.
Sharina said
It occurs to me to ask whether or not you would deem to call a German - or another Italian for that matter - a "brother" while shunning Americans, none of whom wanted to be there in the first place, and wouldn't have been there if not for Italy and Germany.
As far as a German NO I would not refer to them as Brothers, although I know many Germans, and one of by Buisness interests in Italy is at present ( well in the simmer) catering for mostly German Holiday Makers.
Italians, yes of Course I can refer to them as Brothers as I am of the same blood.
You also seem to forget that it was an Italian who paved the way for an easy invasion of Sicily, his name was Salvatore Lucania AKA Lucky Luciano AKA Charly Lucky. He was the Capo di Tutti Cappi and headed the Italian Mob in the USA. He got word to his mates in Sicily and gained information about German and Italian deffences, they also made contact with Italian troops and lowered their resolve. I wonder if Salvatore Lucania would have made such an effort, if he knew what you where about to do to his Country.

and I wasn't born untill 1948, I went may years without the benefit of having a Grandfather, and remember well the tears shed by my Grand Mother for many years after

by jackthelad Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:50 pm

Bobby makes it sound so simple, but in war there are always civilllian casualties, i doubt the American air force targeted Bobbies family. A war torn country is a dangerouse place to be especially in a town where fighting is going on. The Japanese did atrocious things to their prisoners of war, thousands of our troops died working on a bloody railway, starved of food, and medication. Do the families of those soldiers who starved and died hold a grudge against the Japanese people today, i can honestly say they don't. 70 years is a long time to be carring around hate. Let us not forgot what happened, remember the sacrifice that those old soldiers gave, but don't let it warp our minds. Hatred is a cancer, that we need to cut out. Bobby wants to remember, his Italy was killing civillians in Ethiopia, i saw news reels of the Italian planes bombing them. Bobby wasn't born then, but i was, i doubt if those Italian pilots cared about the civilians they happened to be bombing. The Italian people where cheering them on, when it was their turn to take the medicine, they hung their old leader in the street. It was his fault, not their fault for electing him in the first place. By the way, i love holidaying in Italy, especially the Bay of Naples and Sorentto.

by jackthelad Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:10 pm

By the way Bobby, the German and Italian air forces bombed the hell out of Malta, killing civillians indiscriminately, that island and it's people was awarded the highest civillian award Britain could give, the George Cross. They don't have a grudge against the Italians, on the contrary, after their own football team and Englands football team, the Italian team is next in line for their support. While i was on holiday in Malta, they didn't seem to show any animosity to the Italians. We where there during a world cup, if England was playing they wore the English colours, later if Italy was playing they would be wearing the Italian colours. Hatred does not come in to it, 66 years after that war, people and their thought have mellowed a bit.

by oftenwrong Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:38 pm

War really fascinates us, doesn't it? People complain about newspapers always carrying bad news, but nobody seems very interested in the good variety. Speaking of newspapers, the phone-hacking topic has just been kicked swiftly and firmly into the long grass, with a Judicial Enquiry that will report when all the participants have died.

by jackthelad Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:44 pm

Nothing changes then. they usually bury trouble.

by Shirina Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:56 pm

In fact, only the Lanc could carry the “blockbuster” bombs, one about 11,000 ponds, one about 22,000 pounds. I’ll call upon Shirina to correct this info and provide dead-on accurate details.

Yep, only the Lancaster could carry the 12,000 pound "Tall Boy" bomb ... the B-17 and B-24 could not. However, nothing could carry a 22,000 pound bomb, and even the B-29 couldn't carry it under realistic wartime conditions. In fact, if memory serves, the 22,000 pound version never got off the drawing board as there were no aircraft large enough to carry it.

by Shirina Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:20 pm

The Americans did drop two bombs indiscriminately

We can definitely go 'round and 'round about the atomic bombs, but it must be remembered that the British were working on atomic bombs, as well. Given Bomber Harris's push for civilian terror bombing (other RAF commanders wanted to bomb infrastructure, specifically transportation hubs), I wonder just what Britain would have done with such a weapon?

At any rate, I think the dropping of those two bombs saved humanity. Of course it is difficult to quantify the benefits of what was avoided since we can never know for sure, but had it not been for Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I fear we may have dropped them later on. "We" meaning humanity, not necessarily the USA. Humans are notoriously adept at having to learn everything the hard way, and I shudder to think what would have happened if someone had decided to use these weapons later on when they were far more powerful and much more prolific. Had we not dropped relatively weak bombs (compared to later versions) in 1945, someone may have lit one off during the Cold War, perhaps during the Cuban Missile Crisis, because we would not have had the lessons taught by Hiroshima and Nagasaki to guide us.

by oftenwrong Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:42 pm

What would YOU do faced with an implacable enemy that claims it has a Divine right to fight to the last man?

by Guest Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:55 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
What would YOU do faced with an implacable enemy that claims it has a Divine right to fight to the last man?

Whatever I could do to end it.

by oftenwrong Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:50 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:
What would YOU do faced with an implacable enemy that claims it has a Divine right to fight to the last man?
Whatever I could do to end it.

Which probably comes close to echoing the thoughts of President Truman at the time. A land assault on the main islands of Japan would have produced far more casualties than Little Boy and Fat Man.

by Guest Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:24 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
What would YOU do faced with an implacable enemy that claims it has a Divine right to fight to the last man?

RockOnBrother wrote:

Whatever I could do to end it.

oftenwrong wrote:
Which probably comes close to echoing the thoughts of President Truman at the time. A land assault on the main islands of Japan would have produced far more casualties than Little Boy and Fat Man.

From various sources I’ve read and heard, you are absolutely correct. Some estimates of American and British casualties exceeded one million, and estimates of Japanese casualties were even more off the chart.

US Marine Corps and Army experiences in Okinawa, somewhat of a Japanese “home island”, caused US and UK war planners to understand that Japanese military personnel and civilians were absolutely committed to fighting until they were dead. Can’t prove it, but I suspect that had the planned invasion of the real Japanese home islands occurred, WWII would have lasted into 1947, and Japanese deaths would have numbered in the tens of millions, perhaps as high as fifty or sixty million.

Meanwhile, the “emperor” for whom they were fighting seemed to have lived a comfortable life throughout the war.

by jackthelad Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:57 pm

For the record, i would like to put one thing straight, i was not condeming America for dropping two Atomic bombs on Japan. Doing that saves millions of lives on both sides.
I said two indiscriminate bombings by the Americans, probably they were not as discriminate as i made out. There must have been a lot of discussion on where to drop them, first choice could have been Tokio, but ruled out because it was to highly defended. Why those two places where chosen i don't know, you will have to consult Trumans ghost.
Bobby was on about America targeting civilians in Italy, the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan were the only times civilians would have been targeted, it could not be helped.

by Guest Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:19 pm

jackthelad wrote:For the record, i would like to put one thing straight, i was not condeming America for dropping two Atomic bombs on Japan. Doing that saves millions of lives on both sides.

Jack,

For the record, I know that you were not condemning America. I noted that the two bombs were discriminate only because Truman directed that each be dropped. The casualties were certainly and unavoidably indiscriminate.

As to the targeting, I remember reading and hearing that there were a series of targets, “a”, “b”, “c”, etc., if you will, so that if one target was obscured on that day, the B-29 could switch to an alternate target. I also seem to remember that a modified B-29 weather aircraft accompanied the raid to aide in the final targeting decision.

by Shirina Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:54 pm

As to the targeting, I remember reading and hearing that there were a series of targets, “a”, “b”, “c”, etc., if you will, so that if one target was obscured on that day, the B-29 could switch to an alternate target. I also seem to remember that a modified B-29 weather aircraft accompanied the raid to aide in the final targeting decision.

Yep, absolutely true. In addition, both Nagasaki and Hiroshima had not been primary targets for the B-29 raids (which killed far more people than the A-bombs did). These two cities were relatively intact. Dropping A-bombs on Tokyo would do little more than shift the rubble around, though it may have had a psychological impact as the Emperor himself may have been killed by the blast. Hiroshima was also a major military base; survivors of the blast there tell of how the city looked like a military encampment just before the bomb went off. It was a major staging area for troops bound for China and the various Pacific islands where the Allies were fighting. Thus it was not merely a terror-bombing incident to kill civilians. There was a military objective.

But the primary reason why the bombs were dropped was to get the Japanese to surrender. A war like that needed a definite ending and not merely a cease fire agreement. Keep in mind that the Germans walked away from WWI convinced they hadn't actually been defeated, and US General Pershing and a few others understood the ramifications of that. The average German soldier felt betrayed by their politicians by stooping to sign the Treaty of Versailles, and Hitler was able to use that to his advantage. In just under 20 years, Germany rose again, and we all know the results. Japan had to admit defeat and without that, Japan may have arisen again just as Germany had. But after the bombs 67 years later, the head honcho of the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force (the Japanese navy) said, "To ensure national survival, we learned never to go to war against the United States, and the best way to do that is to always be friends with the United States."

by jackthelad Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:17 pm

Bobby's animosity to the US surprises me, nearly 70 years of hate. My grandson has gone of for six months, we will not see him now till next April. He is presently on the transiberian railway heading for Vladivostok on his way to Japan. He is keeping his parents informed of his progress by phone and e-mail. Tells them he has made friends with a Japanese couple on the train, they gave him their address and said he could stay with them while he is visiting Japan, he will be in Japan a month before making is way to Thailand. These young people don't have a clue about that war 70 years ago, and why should they, we are living in a new era of friendship and cooperation. Bobby's hatred as no place in this present world.

by astra Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:58 pm

Jack, it is hard to understand another's feelings, and how the instances are fathomed out.

When ANYONE talks about the Highland Clearances, I am taken DIRECTLY back to the times, sitting on my Grandmother's knee and being told the (horror) stories of what happened at that time.

If anyone gets in the least flippant about it, I surely could rip a tissue or bend a pipe-cleaner!!

The final end to clearances came in 1886 with the passing of the Crofters Act after four years of struggle, and my Grandmother may well have had these happenings told to her while sitting on her own mother's knee as a youngster.

Bobby's feelings are natural, and therefore not for disdain - please accept them and let it go.

A.

by Guest Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:03 am

Regarding Pacific: The Lost Evidence: “Okinawa”

This excellent History Channel program, part of a series, was repeated 15 November 2011 on the Military History Channel. The YouTube version is in five parts, links in order below. The near-necessity of Truman’s August 1945 decision is clear from these five videos.

Pacific: The Lost Evidence: “Okinawa”, part 1

Pacific: The Lost Evidence: “Okinawa”, part 2

Pacific: The Lost Evidence: “Okinawa”, part 3

Pacific: The Lost Evidence: “Okinawa”, part 4

Pacific: The Lost Evidence: “Okinawa”, part 5

by Guest Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:35 pm

Quotes from Pacific: The Lost Evidence: “Okinawa”, part 5:

“Over thirty-eight thousand Americans have been wounded, and over twelve thousand killed or missing.”

“They lost their tomorrow so I could have mine.”

“Certainly we have no love for warfare, we despise it, but it’s part of what we do in our profession, and we do it better than anyone else.”

“The price for this island was estimated at over two hundred thousand lives.”

“I do not want another Okinawa from one end of Japan to the other”, Harry S Truman.

“Six weeks after victory at Okinawa, Hiroshima and Nagasaki marked the dawning of a new age.”

by bobby Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:57 pm

V. Thank you very much. I appreciate what you have said to Jackthelad and you are perfectly correct in all you say. Again many thanks.

Jackthelad. It seems you have much to say about me, without even knowing anything about me, you must be an extreemly clever chap.

jackthelad said
"Bobby appears to have a bee in his bonnet about indiscriminate killing by the Americans."
As I said you know sweet FA about me or mine. As Astra said, I do have feelings about what happened 60 odd years ago, and am fully entitled to have them and an oppinion. You seem to think (if in fact you think at all before starting on someone) I am here on my keyboard all screwed up with anger, clenching both my teeth and fists. Like everything else you have said about me, you couldn't be more wrong. I have an extreemly good life both personally and in business. I have business interests both here in the UK, and in Italy, where I spend most of each summer, I have plenty of cash and a loving family, I work when I feel like it, I live in very nice houses both here and in Italy, and drive very tasty motors, so what have I got to be misserable about.
Also I am the Son and Grand Son of English Soldiers and was in the British army myself from 1966-72 in which time I completed two tours of Northern Ireland.

Jackthelad said
"I was born 8 years before the war, so i still have a vivid reflection of the German bombing, and saw our retaliation later when American Flying Fortresses bombed Germany during the day, and our Lancaster bombers bombed them at night, we lived under the flight path, saw them go and saw them come back. Sadly some wasn't in has a good conditition coming back as they were going, some were leaving a trail of smoke One even crash landed near our village,"

So Jack a small boy living in a village on the flight path of the bombers and you saw the retaliation, when in reality all you saw where a load of airoplanes on their way to bomb Germany, you didn't as implied see one bleeding bomb fall. If I want to know about the blitz, I think I will ask either a Londoner, Plymothian, Mancunian, whatever a person from Coventry is called, scouser or a geordie and many others who suffered directly from German bombing, so ROC can hero worship you, I prefer to hero worship people who really suffered, which include all of my Dads family as they lived in Pimlico where I was born, right by the River Thames.

jackthelad said

"Bobby makes it sound so simple, but in war there are always civilllian casualties, i doubt the American air force targeted Bobbies family."

Dont be a pratt Jack, of course they weren't targeting my Grandfather or all the others who died that day in Pennabilli, they bombed it for no good reason, its that, that maked me feel as I do, and of course the loss of a man I should have been able to spend some time of my life with, but because of the indiscriminate (this one was indiscriminate Jack) bombing of a small Italian "Allied" hill top village I and the rest of my Italian Family lost him.

jackthelad said

"Bobby wants to remember, his Italy was killing civillians in Ethiopia, i saw news reels of the Italian planes bombing them. Bobby wasn't born then, but i was,"

Yes Jack you where born then, but as you where only 8 years old in 1939, you could only have been 3 - 5 when this attriocity happened, so I dont know what newspapers you where reading ar ages 3 - 5, because at that age I wasn't yet reading the beano or Dandy and certainly had no interest in historical or present world issues. and as I mentioned in a preveous post even including the Italian invasion of Libya. I found both to be despicable and cowardly.

jackthelad said. Bloody hell Jack you said a lot didn't you.

"By the way Bobby, the German and Italian air forces bombed the hell out of Malta, killing civillians indiscriminately,"

At no time have I made a comment about any bombings of Italy, Germany or the UK, when Italy was at war against the allies, my gripes are of the attacks made after the armistice of September the 8th 1943 (you where born then jack, how come you dont recall that). There is a difference between a country who is allied to you and one that is not, and at the time of the attrocities I have mentioned Italy was an Ally. Malta at the time of the bombing was indeed an enemy and was strategically the most important UK base in the Mediteranean. Also Jack, you seem to conveniently forget that Planes and ships came out of Malta to attack Italy, but as at that time they where at war with each other, its more than understandable, well to me anyway.
You say you have hollidays in The Bay of Naples and Sorrento. For years after the war, it wasn't safe for either Americans of English to wander around the dock area of Naples. Yanks where attacked because of the hatred the Napolitans felt for them due to their behaveour during and after the War, but unfortunitely they couldnt tell the difference between the yanks and the Brits at the time so all became targets, there where many assaults and murders, and they had plenty of targets as America used the Port of Naples as a naval base for many years, as they had several airbases on the mainland. Italy was in a good strategic possition for a possible war with Russia, I mean god forbid America would fight a war in their own country.

Jack also said
"Bobby's hatred as no place in this present world."

Jack, you mention your Grand Son having a 6 month holiday, well my Grand Son, also had a six month holiday, in fact he had two of them, but boringly they where to the same place, Helmund Province, Afghanistan, and if anything where to have happened to him, my hatred would have known no bounds. But perhaps I am the lucky one as I can Love as passionitely as I can Hate, and I have plenty in my life at the moment to Love.

by bobby Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:07 pm

Sharina. Re the lost post I had a while ago. I think I have found the reason.
As I am working (well sometimes) I tend to start a post, and very often get called away, if in this time someone else posts on the same thread,on my return a message comes up telling me of this and giving me the option of continuing or not. Again my appologies for thinking it was anything to do with you as the threads mediator.

by jackthelad Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:30 pm

Bobby, got to admire your stamina and strength of purpose, it would have taken me a week to type all that, and you are working at the same time.
I have no sons in the armed forces, mine are too old now, the youngest being 53 years old. but i do have relatives in the army, one great nephew who has already done two tours in Helmund, is younger brother, is all set to go there, is first posting since joining the army. Yes it is a worry especially to their parents so understand your concerns.
Getting back to the Italians bombing of Ethiopia has it is known now, yes i was very young when Mussolini was marching to glory, and there were no television in those days, but we did have cinemas showing the news reels. I could read when i was five and my eye sight was good at that time, (it's not too bad now, 74 years later) i could also see and read the Dandy, Beano, The Adventure, and Hotspur comics.
I don't perticularly like the French, but it is not because William invaded us in1066, there should be a limit to the time a person carries a grudge. We the British forgave the American patriots for Bunker Hill, the Battle of New Orleans and tipping the tea into the sea at Boston along time a go.
Clenching of fists, gnashing teeth, i think you ought to go on a anger management course, anger is the most likely cause of burst blood vessels.
Chill out Bobby, none of it is worth it, just keep looking at the brighter side of life, now i have blood cramp in my typing finger.

by bobby Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:11 pm

Jackthelad. It seems I made a typo in my post, no wonder you think me something I most certainly am not.

I said
" I am here on my keyboard all screwed up with anger, clenching both my teeth and fists."

Well Jack I ommited the word "not", what it should read is

I am not here on my keyboard all screwed up with anger, clenching both my teeth and fists.
and that is the truth of it, because someone has certain feelings and thoughts on a subject, it doesn't mean I am totally obsessed by it, I can have strong feelings on matters without getting out of my pram. Both yourself have said how you dont like the froggies, I dont know why that is, i'm sure you have your reasons, just as I have my reasons for dissliking the Yanks. Its funny I dont believe at any time have I used the word hatred, yet its been used by you and you new American mates to describe how I feel. If you want to know how I feel, please dont assume, just ask me, and you will get an honest answer.
I said to Sharina in another post. I wondered how she would feel' if Japanese forces occupied New York, and the RAF sent Lancs over and bombed New York to buggery, I still haven't had a proper reply to that. My point has been, that it is exactly what the Yanks did, only there where no German troops in the region, the raids I spoke of happend in non military areas (that is why my Grand Father took his/my Family up to pennabilli) about a year after the armistice, when Italy was allied to GB and the USA, and it was at a slightly later date when My Auntie got strafed by a US P38 Mustang, They knew it was a Mustang as they where the only aircraft in that theatre painted silver.
Its strange isn't it Jack, how its the people who never had a bomb dropped on them who have the most excuses as to why its OK to bomb allied civillians. Their attitude changed drastically when they had airoplanes dropping out of the sky into the twin towers. After that, they went looking for someone to kill, and we all know what happened after that.

by jackthelad Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:49 pm

Bobby it's nice to to read that you are not a carpet chewing maniac, i wouldn't like to be the one that pushed you over the hill.
It is true what you say, if you have never been bombed, then you won't know what it is like. Our village is close to a town with large marshalling yards, also a tank making factory, and ammunisions. One German aircraft missed it's target alltogether, destroyed a row of houses, killing a number of people, some people never went into the air raid shelters. They wasn't the target, fortunately, their was only one other incident where the Germans dropped their bombs too early or in panic from attacking British fighter planes. They dropped in a field with horses grazing in, don't know what happened to the horses,they were never found.
Present day people though have never experienced any bombing from the air unless you are turned 70 years old, or are living in Iraq, Libya, Afganiststan. the usual type of bombing is ground attacks by terrorists.
I said i dislike the french, i didn't say i hate them though, i have no French friends, but the people who are logical for us to dislike, the Germans, i do have German friends.
Peace Bobby.

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