Is the United Kingdom doomed?

First topic message reminder :

Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/majority-back-scottish-independence-193447501.html

Ivan wrote:Can we really argue with this reasoning from Andrew Sparrow of ‘The Guardian’?  

“David Cameron was one of those politicians who, entirely legitimately, sought to persuade, and ultimately successfully persuaded, people in Scotland to vote against independence on the basis that Scotland’s voice could and would be heard within the Westminster system.

If Scotland chooses now, as it is democratically entitled to do, to make its voice heard by voting SNP, then it is completely outrageous and unacceptable for any Westminster politician to say to Scotland that that’s not acceptable. It is tantamount to saying your voice will be heard, as long as you vote the way we want you to vote. That’s not acceptable.”

The trouble is that the reaction to the tory scare was, as always, to grovel to Murdoch and his merry mates. Won't do - we have to fight 'em.

The problem there Penderyn is SNP have an ultieral motive and that is to get there support Ed will have to lose votes from his Labour voters right across the UK, belive or not what Sturgeon really wants is another Indepence referendum with nobody there to ask any questions that is why she is doing her best to cause trouble at this G.E fOR ed and THE labour party.

So if you have family & friends urge them to vote Labour, that is the other reason I have went to Sheffield Carlisle and Wirral west to see if Ed could get his majority from England and Wales.

and brilliantly done too Redflag, that puts everyone to shame.

Redflag really is a socialist hero - should get an award if we win

Redflag really is a socialist hero

….. in stark contrast to someone who has spent the last five years lampooning the Tories and their despicable policies but, when given the opportunity, can’t be bothered to cast a vote against them.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)

The UK is doomed if Cameron, with his arrogant dismissal of whatever democratic decisions the Scots make tomorrow, remains in power: "We want you as part of the UK, just don't expect to play any part in its governance".

The final nail in the coffin would be if an EU referendum is held and the overall decision is to leave (possible), but the Scots vote to stay in (highly likely). Michael Gove has already said that Scotland, as part of the UK, would have to leave as well, and I don't somehow think that would go down too well....

Thank you boatlady & Ivan all I did was what I knew needed to be done so the UK could have a Labour gov't, and get rid of the Posh boys out of No10 & No11 Downing street. I just hope that the people of Scotland wake up to the truth of the SNP because it will be thanks to the SNP if Davy boy walks back into No10 and hope the people of Scotland punish Sturgeon severely.

Is the UK doomed? Hell yes. The rich now will get more richer whereas the poor will get more poorer. I am not all for benefits since I do not take any myself but do support a good pay rise and reasonable salaries. Why does a footballer get paid more when he is there to provide entertainment when a teacher or doctor is paid considerably less? There is no justice system in pay.

Footballers, Motor-racing drivers, Pop stars and other entertainers are rewarded for a unique talent. They do something that the vast majority of us cannot, for various reasons. Incidentally they are taxed accordingly.

The real enemy is inequality in rewards for commercial employment, and there is no evidence that the UK government has the slightest interest in seeking a resolution of that problem, starlight.

If the South East of England insists on voting tory forever, what are the rest of us supposed to do - die quietly?

Die loudly is the least we can do penderyn.

stuart torr wrote:Die loudly is the least we can do penderyn.

I do my best!

Good for you.

Die loudly is the least we can do penderyn

Please do. It will leave more houses for us in the South East to have as second or third homes.

As you said Penderyn,all those in the south east will insist on voting Tory even if they say otherwise will they not.

Please do. It will leave more houses for us in the South East to have as second or third homes.

Oh, Bobby - that's not nice!

bobby wrote:Die loudly is the least we can do penderyn

Please do. It will leave more houses for us in the South East to have as second or third homes.

Left mine to the cats' home, mun!

Stray Cats and Dogs Homes will survive even if Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England separate, but may have a different appearance if we also cut ourselves off from the powerhouse of Europe.

Aye - sell the home counties to Germany.

boatlady wrote:

Please do. It will leave more houses for us in the South East to have as second or third homes.

Oh, Bobby - that's not nice!

On this boatlady I support bobby he is spot on about who will benefit from another public housing sector "FIRESALE" Some of them will be Tory MPs hoping to add to there house rentals Portfolios.

"….. in stark contrast to someone who has spent the last five years lampooning the Tories and their despicable policies but, when given the opportunity, can’t be bothered to cast a vote against them"


I think the above criticism refers to me - although blaming the messenger for the message has been tried fruitlessly many times before!

That being the case, I make no apology for still hating the Tories, but not believing that a Labour Party which could not 'be bothered' to effectively oppose such a cruel government deserved support from the likes of me.

As I consistently commented, Miliband could not hope to win if he was simply content to waste opportunities presented to him by the obviously indefensible Tory policies on (eg) welfare.

Could I have voted for the LibDems? - nobody with any sense would contemplate it. UKIP? Not a hope in hell.

To suggest that people should vote for something in which they don't believe, just because they believe in the alternatives less, is unconvincing -to say the least. Milly failed. Milly was always going to fail. And the Labour Party are now beginning to recognise how badly Milly failed. Worst of all is the fact that he failed a whole host of people who needed him and his colleagues to put up a far , far better fight for them - apparently some of them on here.

Maybe in five years there will be something worth voting for . Regrettably, there wasn't this time...

Phil Hornby wrote:-
Milly was always going to fail. And the Labour Party are now beginning to recognise how badly Milly failed. Worst of all is the fact that he failed a whole host of people who needed him and his colleagues to put up a far , far better fight for them - apparently some of them on here.

You must be a very clever man. As late as last Wednesday, the polls were showing Labour and the Tories neck-and-neck, with experts saying that the election was “too close to call” and one pollster claiming to identify a late Labour surge.

The Labour manifesto was, in my opinion, quite good, because it was a compromise. It provided some red meat (such as the mansion tax and the restoration of the 50% tax rate) to motivate activists, but it was also costed and fiscally responsible. It was far too right-wing for the Scots and for members such as ghost whistler, but it was no doubt too left-wing for you and Peter Mandelson. As you’re not a Labour Party member, you obviously aren’t aware that shadow cabinet members went out on the ‘Labour doorstep’ campaign with candidates and party members in marginal seats on most weekends over several years, so they most certainly did put up a fight by taking the message to the voters.

A lot of people are very upset by the election result and some of us are on this forum. Your dismissal of everyone as undeserving of your vote could be seen as a little insensitive and even provocative at this point in time. Of course it’s your right not to vote (although personally I think there’s a case for compulsory voting, as in Australia and Belgium), and you were probably trying to be helpful. I’m also not criticising you for going off topic here, since you were responding to a statement on this thread, but there is a more appropriate place for discussing this issue:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t1082-what-now-for-labour

So is the United Kingdom doomed? Probably yes. I think Cameron won this election (rather than Labour lost it) by recruiting Darling and Brown to do the bulk of the ‘No’ campaigning in the independence referendum, then provoking the Scots with his ‘EVEL’ speech on the morning after the vote. The bulk of Labour-voting Scots felt betrayed and rushed into the arms of the SNP. So that was Labour stuffed in Scotland.

Despite wanting the Scots to remain in the UK, Cameron doesn’t want a peaceful, democratic party from Scotland to take any part in the government at Westminster. As always the Tories have to have their bogeymen (Communists, then trade unionists, immigrants, benefit scroungers etc) and the SNP fitted the bill perfectly, so Cameron demonised it to scare enough of the English into voting Tory. That was Labour stuffed in England.

Now we will have EVEL, with Westminster being the only elected chamber in the world to have first and second class MPs, and all but three of the second class ones are in the SNP. But the final nail in the coffin of the UK will come if the forthcoming EU referendum results in an exit vote (possible) while a majority of Scots vote to stay in (very likely). The charming Mr Gove has already said that it is only the UK-wide vote which will count. If my scenario comes about, another independence referendum for Scotland – and a resounding ‘Yes’ vote – won’t be far behind.

" You must be a very clever man..."

It does not take a genius to have seen that Milly was not going to do it - I said it for long enough to make myself unpopular on here.

And as for it being 'provocative' or 'insensitive' because I had no confidence in a party which others on here favoured, are we really saying that only supportive comments are acceptable?! If so, it is the mark of the depth of unwillingness to face the reality that Labour and their leader were just not up to the game. That remains their fault - and not mine...

He probably meant well, unlike most of them. It seems to me the issue is terribly basic: are you on the side of the working class, or not? Most MPs are on the side of their careers, let's face it, and making bets on what might go down well with the mugs. Since the tories have paid experts on the job, they are likely to win such contests.

Phil Hornby wrote:I think the .... criticism refers to me - although blaming the messenger for the message has been tried fruitlessly many times before!

In case anyone should think my view of any relevance, I have followed Ivan's suggestion and posted it here:


https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t1082-what-now-for-labour

I know there has been talk of this elsewhere and even a few thousand signatures for Northern England to be governed by the SNP..though it won't happen..

I never liked Salmon and I'm just warming to Sturgeon but that doesn't mean I fully trust her but this is the only realistic route I can see ...there's just too many Tory voters down south , so let's just say the English could be governed by the SNP and you had that chance or be left with countless Tory governemnt ts then which would you choose?...

I'm not expecting many or maybe even any to say they would vote SNP as they are in truth a party who want to distance themselves as much as possible from Cameron amd we know sooner or later Sturgeon will push for another referendum...

But let's say the situation is ( remember, pretend! ) ..

That Labour had no chance of winning for five terms (25 years ) and your only other real options were to vote SNP if it was permitted and be governed by them or the Tories , then which would you choose?

Btw..I don't mean having the Union broke I just mean IF the Englsih had the right to vote SNP as a UK wide party and be governed by them as a part of Britain still.

I'd guess that many Scots see the SNP not as a desired government but as a desirable way to escape the tory scoundrels and be allowed to vote for what they want rather than something that is at least not quite what they most detest

That sounds right Penderyn,does that mean that there will soon be a Welsh nationalist party also? that will leave no united kingdom left?

The Welsh nationalist party is called Plaid Cymru and has existed since 1925. It is led by Leanne Wood and has 3 MPs at Westminster, 11 members of the Welsh Assembly and one MEP.

https://www.partyof.wales/

Apologies Ivan, for wording my post wrong, will Wales vote for independence as Scotland have, leaving England alone with no united kingdom.

Stuart that will depend on the people of Wales, but Leanne Wood & Nicola Sturgeon are the best of friends it was more than likely it was NS that put the idea of Independence into Leanne Woods head heaven help the people of Wales.

Well Redflag I can see it happening I am afraid.

Not if the SNP are proved to be a shower of ASS HOLES here in Scotland, at the moment the SNP are in trouble with the Education & our NHS here in Scotland so it could be that the SNP take the same beating they dished out to Labour party last week next May when the Holyrood elections take place. That will tell me that the people of Scotland have woken up to the SNP LIES.

We can only hope so can we not Redflag.

Redflag wrote:-
Leanne Wood & Nicola Sturgeon are the best of friends it was more than likely it was NS that put the idea of Independence into Leanne Woods head

No!  

Plaid Cymru (The Party of Wales) was formed on 5 August 1925. Its aims are:-

To secure independence for Wales. To ensure economic prosperity, social justice and the health of the natural environment, based on decentralist socialism. To build a national community based on equal citizenship, respect for different traditions and cultures and the equal worth of all individuals, whatever their race, nationality, gender, colour, creed, sexuality, age, ability or social background. To create a bilingual society by promoting the revival of the Welsh language. To promote Wales's contribution to the global community and to attain membership of the United Nations.

https://www.partyof.wales/our-history/

At least I was partly right Ivan was I not?

'Wales' and Scotland are extremely different countries, and patriotism in the former has a much more cultural slant (a language scarcely anyone could then speak was forced on us for many centuries as the only official one).   The boss classes inevitably went foreign, so the idea of 'Welshness' is always about the common people and their needs.   The forced decline of Cymraeg  over the Twentieth Century and the very large influx of foreigners up to the first War, plus the very large outflow of native Cymry in the Depression has complicated matters further, and far too many people measure the degree of their 'Welshness' rather than getting on with fighting the rich.    Add that being the first industrial country on earth has left us extremely poor and you can see that we are not likely to go for flashy-type nationalism.   Patriotism with us goes a lot deeper than that, and you could add, I suppose, that the racist view of history peddled in the Nineteenth Century leaves many feeling that it's our Island anyway.   Plaid Cymru is, in the middle of all this, a very attractive Party made up, for the most part, of very admirable individuals, whereas the likes of George Thomas and Kinnock do not exactly glow in the memory. Aneurin Bevan, perhaps, and a great many of the early Labour Party. Being in safe power, however, does not make for the best kind of people, in my experience

While the principal export of Wales continues to be Welshmen, things aren't likely to change, Penderyn. Only when every political animal in the Principality embraces Plaid Cymru whole-heartedly can there be any serious embarrassment to Westminster's parsimonious ways.

oftenwrong wrote:While the principal export of Wales continues to be Welshmen, things aren't likely to change, Penderyn.  Only when every political animal in the Principality embraces Plaid Cymru whole-heartedly can there be any serious embarrassment to Westminster's parsimonious ways.

There is, I'm afraid, a lot to be said for that. What I'd really like to see is a Labour/Plaid Cymru merger.

At least it would up Labours votes against any Tory MPs in Wales would it not Penderyn?

stuart torr wrote:At least it would up Labours votes against any Tory MPs in Wales would it not Penderyn?

Well. amongst 'Welsh' people it is hardly a problem, but it would win a lot of the seats where the white settlers, so to speak, vote for Smith.

So Penderyn if there were a coalition? who would the white settlers vote for if it was not for smith?