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Female Genital Mutilation - horrifying and widespread, despite bans

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Hilary Burrage
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Post by novakb Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:55 am

First topic message reminder :

Last night, my Twitter timeline came alive during Newsnight due to a report about Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). You can watch it here (skip to 19:46m): [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So many people were horrified by the fact that 90% of Egyptian women have suffered FGM. This informative article [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] gives the rates for many other countries: for instance, it's 97% in Somalia too.

No woman can listen to stories of FGM without wincing and imaging the excruciating pain both during the procedure - and ever after. Periods, sex and childbirth are all made unnecessarily and avoidably painful. And I'm sure many men would baulk at seeing how painful it is for a woman. I even remember seeing an earlier film report interviewing a few younger Somali men (ones who lived in Europe, I think) who said that they wanted their wives and girlfriends to enjoy sex (like Western women), not to have to fear the pain of it.

Women suffer health complications, and even death, from how FGM is carried out (which is why it is nothing like male circumcision). Ironically, as bans have been introduced, the procedure has gone more underground, meaning it is done by people with no clinical training. The practice seems to be about tradition and notions of women's 'purity', rather than have any religious basis, and it's done to young girls - their fear and pain and shame is unimaginable.

With anything so culturally ingrained, the forces that continue the practice are both subtle and powerful. There's no doubt that older generations of women continue the practice, misguidedly thinking that this is in their daughters' best interests.

What disturbs me is that there are no doubt girls and women on my own doorstep (e.g. in the Somali community living in Bristol) who have suffered FGW. I remember being very affected by the story of one girl who was sent back 'home' over the summer holidays (a long enough time to 'recover') and returned to school in September cowed, nervous and in constant discomfort. This is not unusual apparently. I hear that people are also brought over to the UK to carry out FGM.

An estimated 20,000 girls in the UK are at risk of FGM. This makes it a child protection issue here in the UK.

How can we help break the cycle? There are organisations working with these communities: The Orchid Project [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and Desert Flower [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and Daughters of Eve [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] among others.

It's a difficult and painful subject (in every sense of the word), but I urge you to get informed and make a noise about this devastating, crippling and unnecessary practice.
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Post by moonbeam Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:58 am

So if we have a negative response to your posts, we may only give it if we include our real name?

Sorry, but that's not going to happen with me. If I wished to have people know my name, I would have used it for my screen name here. I'd guess the majority feel the same. I'm not trying to be difficult, but my privacy is important to me. I'm not going to provide my true identity just because someone thinks my opinion doesn't count unless I do.

This isn't meant as a criticism of your post, by the way. Simply my reaction to your expectations.



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Post by Hilary Burrage Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:49 am

No, moonbeam, I absolutely didn't say people 'must' give their real names.

I merely said that courtesy and good practice demands they do so IF they choose to attack in an UNCIVIL way someone who has the courage to say who they actually are.

I suppose it's 'OK' to be rude / unpleasant to others who ALSO choose to 'protect their privacy' - no-one is inequitably vulnerable in that scenario - tho' I try never to be deeply uncivil, regardless. It's not necessary.

It's NOT good form, or even decent, to be nasty per se to people who do have the courage to say who they are. For me, transparency is important in this sort of debate because it's part of my mode of operation as a writer / researcher / practitioner.

I have written a lot about most of the topics in which I engage, so there is good reason to give my name and make that work available to others who may want to examine the evidence / thinking / suppositions behind any given position which I propose. You (I) can't post the lot every time you make a comment on for a such as this! Critique of a writer's (my) work is welcome, it's how we all, including me, learn...

'Protecting one's privacy' (?) is fine as long as one also shows a modicum of courtesy / *respect* towards others who CAN be identified and who choose in their commentary to remain civil.

Criticism decently put by other contributors is fine by me with or without a real name; snide comment, anonymously, to others who have real names in my view IS NOT.

I welcome critical discussion on a straightforward basis, anonymous or not. No problem for me about reasoned debate and criticism properly put; just a problem about spookiness, when Anon says unpleasant things to Real People. If anonymous contributors want to be generally unpleasant, as opposed to sharing different views, they should save their snide comments for others who are also of that ilk.

I think that's a fair 'expectation'? And it's all I wanted to say.

It's very threatening, whoever you are, when others know your identity but the person being unpleasant is anonymous.

Let's keep that sort of unconstructive 'dialogue' for the Anons Anonymous, please. Anonymous nastiness stops debate, not leavens it.

Hope you'd agree, especially as a Moderator, that unpleasantness, and reasoned critique / differences of opinion, are very different!

Reasoned negativity is fine, bring it on; NOT the same at all as just nasty.

Cheers,
Hilary

PS moonbeam: Thanks for making it clear that you were not criticising my post! Appreciate that.
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Post by Ivan Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:08 pm

In those pre-internet days when getting your views aired in public usually meant writing to a newspaper, I used to wonder why editors sometimes printed letters signed “name and address supplied” from people who didn’t appear to have the courage of their convictions to stand up and be counted. However, when I started posting messages on the internet, initially at MSN, I noticed that the vast majority of people use a ‘handle’ and protect their anonymity; that appears to be the accepted way of doing things.

Anonymity does make it easier for trolls and bullies to behave like keyboard gangsters and vanish when it suits them, leaving nobody in their local community aware of who they are or what they’ve done. Yet at the same time, there is no verification process on most forums (one is available on Twitter) where individuals can prove that the name they use is theirs. For example, nobody here really knows if my name is actually ‘Ivan White’, do they?

I noticed on Twitter that Hilary Burrage had taken up the issue of FGM, and I invited her to Cutting Edge to participate in this discussion (and hopefully others). Far from “blowing her own trumpet”, she came here as requested to reinforce the case for doing what we can to protect young girls from barbarism. I hope that others will welcome her as a new member.

Hitler, Alan Clark and Ann Widdecombe have all opposed foxhunting. Much as I detest the politics of those individuals, it doesn’t mean that I have to disagree with them and support the tearing to pieces of wild animals in the name of ‘sport’. And anyone who has read my opinions on this forum will know that I could never be called a racist. The dreadful practice of FGM may well provide ammunition for racists, closet or overt, so the sooner it’s stamped out in the UK, the sooner that stick with which to beat immigrants will disappear. To me this is primarily a child protection issue, and so FGM must be fought vigorously.

24,000 children in Britain are at risk annually of female genital mutilation, so this is not something we can ignore. I was pleased to see that Karl Turner, the Labour MP for Hull East, is taking up this issue with the government in the New Year. The link to the epetition which Hilary provided didn’t work for me, probably because of the full stop at the end of it, but this one appears to be okay and I urge members to sign:-
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Post by oftenwrong Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:18 pm

It can be astonishing to learn what occupies some minds at Christmas.
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Post by moonbeam Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:41 am

I had to work today, myself.

Personally, I don't believe that circumcision is truly "mutilation". True, it's basically cosmetic, and therefore unnecessary. But it doesn't have the same permanently painful and disfiguring consequences as does FGM. It horrifies me that women are subjected to this.


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Post by Ivan Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:58 pm

"Concerns over female cosmetic genital surgery"

The United Nations estimates that about 70 million girls and women underwent an FGM procedure in 2010. The World Health Organisation says about 6,000 girls are circumcised every day. It is a practice being performed by the elder women in the communities to ensure that the young girls are marriageable.

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Post by oftenwrong Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:46 pm

Foreigners have filthy habits.
Eating meat is cruelty to animals.
Give Peace a chance.
Smoking kills.
Man's inhumanity to Man.
Do as you would be done by.
What shall it profit a man ....?
Turn the other cheek.
Hell is other people.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth. (But not quite yet).
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. (Karl Marx 1875.)


Yep! Things are tough all over. Just don't know where to begin.



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Post by moonbeam Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:59 pm

And that has what, exactly, to do with the topic?

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Post by oftenwrong Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:00 pm

moonbeam wrote:And that has what, exactly, to do with the topic?
My feeble attempt to comment that our World has many defects, and picking on them one-at-a-time may simply be an exercise in futility.

But that won't stop us trying, will it moonbeam?
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Post by Hilary Burrage Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:32 pm

Well, we may start by looking at single issues, but often our greater awareness when we begin to think about the matter in question then helps us to see patterns and connections also to other apparently 'single' issues.
e.g. FGM is closely connected with / an element of the wider issue of violence against women and girls (VAWG) as a whole.
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Post by boatlady Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:04 pm

Been thinking about this female genital circumcision thing, off and on for years.
I find it incomprehensible that anyone would want such a thing, but it's also clear that some people do want it.
Seems to be an issue about 'belonging' in one's community - getting a husband, having one's kids accepted by their peers, gaining the support of friends and neighbours in the everyday exigencies of life. These are important aspects of human life, especially for someone whose social choices are few, or who live in male-dominated societies.
Maybe the issue isn't the genital mutilation, distasteful as we may find it, but the fact that some people are part of social groupings that require it. I think maybe, like all these cultural and traditional practices, the only way is for the culture to change, so that women feel able to refuse to accept the mutilation and have choices that are not currently available - so, education, offering of support and asylum to those willing and able to leave the cutural matrix that demands this.
It's a long problem and doesn't have a short answer, and 'rescuing' people or expressing hostility and outrage is more likely to do harm than good.
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Post by oftenwrong Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:35 pm

My problem with this entire thread is that well-intentioned people are trying to deal with a complicated problem as though it were a clear black-and-white issue between right and wrong.

Obviously, those of us from a Western Culture are appalled and indignant by a barbaric process of slicing female flesh which has no apparent purpose.
But those of us from a Western Culture will have little understanding of long-standing customs within alien cultures, where such practices are of enormous psychological and anthropological significance.

The phrase, Physician, heal thyself may apply. Meantime, why not discuss the apparently waning importance of Virginity prior to marriage within Western cultures? Is that connected with our Religiousness?
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Post by Hilary Burrage Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:20 pm

I think you will find, everyone, if you should have a moment sometime to look at a few of the refs / links I suggested above, that all the issues which concern us here are in fact well taken on board by practitioners involved in actively working to eradicate FGM.

There's still of course much to explore and think about, but the many and diverse complexities of the problem/s are indeed well understood by those most centrally involved.

Nonetheless, as people are suggesting, there's quite a way to go before these complexities are embedded in our wider social understandings.
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Post by boatlady Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:30 pm

There was a piec this morning on (of all things) Womens Hour about FGM which informed me of some factors I hadn't been aware of.
For example, although this is against the law in England (i.e. there are legal means of preventing the practice) and we have laws which protect children (which would give the legal grounds for prosecuting responsible parents who allow the operation to be carried out), there is no requirement on doctors who see evidence that FGM has taken place to report it.
Seems to me, if we want to stop the practice in England we could easily enough do it if it was added to the class of injuries (like knife and gunshot wounds) that doctors are required to report. Once reported, a family which has allowed the procedure to be carried out could be given a very strong message that this is not acceptable to this country - we can't stop it anywhere else, but could maybe make the point that children in England have the right to be safe from this practice.
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Post by oftenwrong Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:43 am

As if we don't already have sufficient nannying from the GP's surgery, with anti-smoking courses; anti-alcohol advice; obesity warnings; smaller-packaging of e.g. aspirin; Flu jabs; "Well Woman"; "Well Man"; red wine good/red wine bad; red meat good/red meat bad; dieting necessary/dieting useless; reduce sugar intake; lower salt quantities - tote that barge, lift that bale.
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Post by boatlady Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:13 pm

However, if children under 8 are being subjected to painful unnecessary and life changing surgical procedures which are counter to the laws of the land, maybe GP's should be passing that information on?
We're not talking here about consenting adults.
When I was at work, I'd have called the practice of FGM on small children a form of child abuse.
I quite accept your point that too much well meaning 'advice' has the effect of infantilising us all, and that adults should be free to make decisions about their health.
Similarly, if you want your clitoris removed (maybe not you personally), maybe the decision should wait until you're old enough to know what's involved.
To me, it's the same argument as not baptising children until they can understand Christianity and agree to join
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Post by Ivan Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:08 pm

Here is a pathetic and sickening attempt to justify the practice of FGM:-

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Post by boatlady Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:24 pm

Didn't convince me. Clearly a clerical attempt to impose subjugation on women - a bit like the piece you quoted from the other day about the married woman's duties in the bedroom.
The bit about the smelliness is also I believe an argument brought forward in support of male circumcision - with some justice - careful attention to personal daintiness in the nether regions is important for both sexes, and I expect in a society where water is scarce you could argue for an operation that avoids the need for too much washing.
I would, however, want to support the view that an adult woman, who has the capacity to decide, has the right (however little I may understand the desire) to have the procedure, if she wants it.
The problem for me arises if people are doing it to little girls who are unable to make an informed choice, or if individuals are being pressured into agreeing to the operation.
The piece you linked to is, as you say, pathetic, and wouldn't convince an intelligent woman.
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Post by oftenwrong Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:57 am

Why can't everyone be like us?
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Post by boatlady Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:57 pm

At some level, of course, they all are - one light, but the lamps are many - it's the many lamps that make life interesting and make travel worthwhile.
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Post by Ivan Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:15 pm

Kenya: the girl who demanded school

Kakenya Ntaiya's father agreed to let her go to high school if she submitted to 'female circumcision'.

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Post by oftenwrong Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:29 pm

Those foreigners shouldn't be allowed to have children.

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Post by boatlady Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:32 am

not sure what your point is OW?
To be fair, I've only skimmed the piece you linked to - if you have time, I'd be grateful if you could direct me to the bits you feel are relevant.
Thanks
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Post by oftenwrong Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:33 am

To attempt a précis of a legal document is to enter a minefield, boatlady, but there are a number of omissions and commissions affecting Kenyan females which would not apply in the UK. My point is that any "Western" protestations about the treatment of females in other Cultures are significantly less valid if made in ignorance of the local Laws and customs.

The Legal differences are easier to identify, and if appropriate, to argue. Local customs less so. Kenyan women are disadvantaged in many ways by the simple fact of poverty: There are not enough Doctors, and any Hospital treatment is conditional upon regular National Insurance contributions by the male in a relationship who has designated the woman by name. Few women have paid employment, a schoolgirl who falls pregnant will generally be expelled, so the fate of a single mother hinges upon what help might be available from family.

If people want to enrage themselves about injustice, there's plenty of it about.
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Post by boatlady Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:59 pm

See your point - in a poor country where men hold all the power, it's really difficult for women to challenge oppressive practices - I guess that's why Ivan's post was so interesting - describes the kind of grass roots challenge you can get if people have access to education and publicity.
Every journey starts with a single step and all that.
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Post by snowyflake Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:40 pm

OW, just because a practice is acceptable in a culture does not make it ethical just because it's cultural. You sicken me with this attitude. There is a section of Islam who believes that marrying 6 year old girls and having sex with them is acceptable according to Muhammad. When the victims are under the age of consent, I cannot see how you can condone this? I don't care if it's cultural. My question is always, is it harmful? FGM and child marriage and paedophilia is harmful!! There is no question about this.

The Germans thought it was a good idea to kill the Jews. The Aztecs thought it was a good idea to sacrifice children and virgins. The Spanish thought it was a good idea to burn heretics at the stake. The Christians thought it was a good idea to burn witches. The muslims think it's a good idea to fly planes into buildings. The Hindus think it's a good idea to oppress the Sikhs. The Sikhs think it's a good idea to carry knives to kill Hindus. The Sunnis hate the Shia hate the Wahabbi and they all hate the Afghanis.

Really, OW. Do you think sitting back and accepting cultural differences is ok? When something is ethically wrong....it's just plain wrong. And if you sit back and hold your hands up and say Oh Well, it's cultural therefore it's alright.....to my mind that makes you a coward. Some things are just wrong no matter what culture you live in.

FGM, paedophila, child marriage, slavery, brutality, abuse are all WRONG no matter where you live, who you are, or what your religion or culture is.
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Post by oftenwrong Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:43 pm

What do they know of England, who only England know?
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Post by ROB Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:37 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
What do they know of England, who only England know?
 

You might want to heed moral advice given unto you by a moral lady, moral advice given unto you with no cost to you for your own moral edification. Perhaps if you were to do so, your future posts regarding ‘muslim” male beasts bullwhipping, brutalizing, genitally mutilating, kidnapping, wrongfully imprisoning, raping, burning, acid attacking, torturing, beheading, stoning to death, and otherwise exterminating innocent Muslim women in “muslim” countries, all in the name of that “god” called “culture” that you appear to worship, might take on a moral tone, and you might find yourself standing up for righteousness rather than, in my opinion, tolerating and covertly supporting evil.
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Post by snowyflake Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:23 am

What do they know of England, who only England know?

I don't know what this means. It's easy to be an armchair critic when you and your loved ones are safe.

The article you posted showing the 'health' benefits of female cutting is totally biased to cultural and religious reasons. There is no reason ever to cut the genitals and never a reason other than subjugation of women to remove the clitoris. When the cultural pressure is so great for a girl or boy to achieve their adulthood that they must do this or risk being ostracised, of course, you have people rationalising a completely irrational act.

I have never been able to get my head around why God thought after making man in his image, that hacking off a piece of his creation made them somehow closer to him. It is obviously desert thinking when Ahab didn't bathe and was stinking up the tent.

From a scientific and medical point of view, unless there is a physical impediment, like phimosis (and even this can be rectified with gentle 'training' sometimes), there is never a reason to cut the genitals. Using religion to do so is just another example of the madness of religion.
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Post by oftenwrong Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:55 am

Interesting to see that the Thought Police now patrol in two's, just like real cops.
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Post by snowyflake Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:07 pm

Interesting to see that the Thought Police now patrol in two's, just like real cops.

Yeah, you and boatlady need to get a life, OW. Smile

Anyway, my internet went down just as I posted something and obviously it's lost now so I shall repost:

Please tell me OW why you're telling me what to think is 'right' and my posting what I think is 'wrong'? No one's policing your thoughts. Only you can do that. That you don't do it means you have reasons for thinking as you do. So please, I want to know why an English colonial thinks it's wrong to interfere in other cultures (especially considering it was the British modus operandi for centuries).

I am truly interested.
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Post by boatlady Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:10 pm

I thought this thread was about female genital mutilation?
Andf I thought there was a discussion going on?
You know, where more than one opinion is being expressed and people have a chance to explain what they mean without personal opprobrium?
Yeah, you and boatlady need to get a life, OW.

Apparently not.
The floor is yours
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Post by snowyflake Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:28 pm

The thread title is female genital mutilation. And there is a discussion going on. OW was asked a question and I'm waiting for an answer. Not sure what OW's opinion is other than we shouldn't interfere when a culture is doing harm to people within that culture who don't give consent to having this done to them.

Do you have an opinion on this topic, boatlady? What is your feeling about a young girl being dragged to a tent by the older women in a tribe, being held down and having her clitoris and vaginal lips cut out?


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Post by ROB Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:36 am

oftenwrong wrote:
Interesting to see that the Thought Police now patrol in two's, just like real cops.
 

“Thought Police” do not bullwhip, brutalize, genitally mutilate, kidnap, wrongfully imprison, rape, burn, acid attack, torture, behead, stone to death, and otherwise desecrate and exterminate innocent women.

“Thought Police” do not drag young girls to tents, hold young girls down by overwhelming force of numbers, and cut out young girls’ clitorises and vaginal lips.

As of 14 April 2013, your voice, cacophonous in condemnation of Cutting Edge members that dare protest these horrific, despicable, inexcusable, immoral acts on this public forum, remains silent in presentation of your own position regarding these horrific, despicable, inexcusable, immoral acts, thus, in my opinion, confirming your commitment to (1) shutting off and shutting up the voice of a moral lady whose moral advice you choose not to heed, and (2) shutting down on Cutting Edge the public discussion of these horrific, despicable, inexcusable, immoral acts.
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Post by snowyflake Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:52 am

You know, where more than one opinion is being expressed and people have a chance to explain what they mean without personal opprobrium?

Still waiting.
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Post by oftenwrong Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:34 pm

Please don't hold your breath. Descending to the level of kibitzing has never appealed. Sticking pins into a waxen image may however afford complainers some satisfaction, I'm told.
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Post by snowyflake Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:17 pm

Descending to the level of kibitzing has never appealed.

LOL! This from our resident kibitzer.

Seems rather odd that you take an opinionated stance on an issue without forwarding your reasons for doing so. Don't you think you are wasting your time here? Or is it your sole purpose in life to kibitz from the sidelines, offer opinions and never engage in discussion?

Just so we know please.
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Post by ROB Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:49 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Descending to the level of kibitzing has never appealed.
 

In your near-incessant campaign of kibitzing on this and all threads which focus upon denial of human rights to innocent, vulnerable, women and girls, I was unaware that you were “[descending] to the level of kibitzing” prior to kibitzing. I thought you were already there.
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Post by snowyflake Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Just in case anyone thinks we should just turn a blind eye to this.
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Post by ROB Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:33 pm


Snowy,

Thank you for your diligence.

Latest News from Equality Now - April 2013
Action Updates

LIBERIA - BAN FGM: The case of Ruth Berry Peal, who was kidnapped and forcibly mutilated by members of the Sande society (secret women’s association) in Liberia in 2010, was finally concluded in January. Although Ruth has finally gotten justice against her abusers, she continues to receive threats and has been advised by the gender ministry to relocate… The powerful Sande society continues to wield great political influence in Liberia and a climate of intimidation has largely influenced how FGM is perceived and written about.

MOROCCO - END LEGAL EXEMPTIONS FOR RAPISTS: Following our campaign to end the legal exemption for rapists who marry their victims, the Moroccan Ministry of Justice and Liberties approved amendments to their Penal Code in February.

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Last edited by RockOnBrother on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by oftenwrong Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:06 pm

Hands up if you've completed the Form.

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