Should the perpetrator of the Kandahar massacre be tried in Afghanistan and executed?

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I do not know what the law states in the US regarding such a crime(s), I suppose I could look it up and learn something.

If this particular soldier was suffering from some kind of mental breakdown, then in English law he would plead "death my diminished responsibility" which covers any action or actions caused by a troubled mind, mental illness, mental breakdown, loss of mental responsibility etc etc.

What happened in Kandahar is extremely sad and there is no easy answer.
If this soldier was suffering from some form of mental impairment, then he cannot be held responsible for his own actions.

There is still often silence surrounding mental illness, to a degree the tabboos are still there, the big big problem is going to be explaining the circumstances to a largely backward and uneducated population who may not understand mental illness, or who do not want to understand.

There are some rumours that the serviceman was drunk, if this turned out to be correct then he should be court marshalled and thrown into a cell for the rest of his life.

Should the perpetrator of the Kandahar massacre be tried in Afghanistan and executed?

No.

I’ve never served in the armed forces and I can’t imagine the terror experienced, or the mental damage that can be done, to an individual who has to fight on the front line. In World War I, the British shot around 300 of their own soldiers for cowardice or desertion, judgements probably issued by commanders who kept themselves well behind the lines when any trouble kicked off. Haven’t we progressed from that?

Soldiers are trained to kill, and we give them medals when they get it right. If a man goes and fights in your name, you have a duty to look after him, since he’s putting his own life at risk on his country’s behalf. Nobody noticed that this American soldier wasn’t coping with the situation, so perhaps someone was negligent. This man may well have seen some of his comrades killed.

Some people are more sensitive than others, some can cope better with the nightmare of warfare. What this man did to innocent Afghan civilians is terrible and mustn’t be trivialised, but what has the war done to this individual as well? Civilised countries don’t execute those who aren’t responsible for their actions (and most don’t use the death penalty at all). If this man is declared insane, he must be treated accordingly. It is to America’s shame that any number of Vietnam veterans were executed for crimes they subsequently committed, having been brutalised by war. Enough is enough.

The Last Berkshire Eleven

The Heroes of Maiwand



‘Twas at the disastrous battle of Maiwand, in Afghanistan,
Where the Berkshires were massacred to the last man;
On the morning of July the 27th, in the year eighteen eighty,
Which I’m sorry to relate was a pitiful sight to see.

Ayoub Khan’s army amounted to twelve thousand in all,
And honestly speaking it wasn’t very small,
And by such a great force the Berkshires were killed to the last man,
By a murderous rebel horde under the command of Ayoub Khan.

The British force amounted to about 2000 strong in all,
But although their numbers were but few it didn’t them appal;
They were commanded by General Burrows, a man of courage bold,
But, alas! the British army was defeated be it told.

The 66th Berkshire Regiment stood as firm as a wall,
Determined to conquer or die whatever would befall,
But in the face of overwhelming odds, and covered to the last,
The broken and disordered Sepoys were flying fast

Before the victorious Afghan soldiers, whose cheers on the air arose,
But the gallant band poured in deadly volleys on their foes;
And, outnumbered and surrounded, they fell in sections like ripe grain;
Still the heroes held their ground, charging with might and main.

The British force, alas! were shut up like sheep in a pen,
Owing to the bad position General Burrows had chosen for his men;
But Colonel Galbraith with the Berkshires held the enemy at bay,
And had the Sepoys been rallied the Afghans would not have won the day.

But on the Berkshires fell the brunt of the battle,
For by the Afghan artillery they fell like slaughtered cattle;
Yet the wild horsemen were met with ringing volleys of musketry,
Which emptied many a saddle; still the Afghans fought right manfully.

And on came the white cloud like a whirlwind;
But the gallant Berkshires, alas! no help could find,
While their blood flowed like water on every side around,
And they fell in scores, but the men rallied and held their ground

The brave Berkshires under Colonel Galbraith stood firm in the centre there,
Whilst the shouts of the wild Ghazis rent the air;
But still the Berkshires held them at bay,
At the charge of the bayonet, without dismay.

Then the Ghazis, with increased numbers, made another desperate charge
On that red line of British bayonets, which wasn’t very large;
And the wild horsemen were met again with ringing volleys of musketry,
Which was most inspiring and frightful to see.

Then Ayoub concentrated his whole attack on the Berkshire Regiment,
Which made them no doubt feel rather discontent,
And Jacob’s Rifles and the Grenadiers were a confused and struggling mass,
Oh heaven! such a confused scene, nothing could it surpass.

But the Berkshires stood firm, replying to the fire of the musketry,
While they were surrounded on all sides by masses of cavalry;
Still that gallant band resolved to fight for their Queen and country,
Their motto being death before dishonour, rather than flee.

At last the gallant British soldiers made a grand stand,
While most of the officers were killed fighting hand to hand,
And at length the Sepoys fled from the enclosure, panic-stricken and irate,
Alas! leaving behind their European comrades to their fate.

The Berkshires were now reduced to little more than one hundred men,
Who were huddled together like sheep in a pen;
But they broke loose from the enclosure, and back to back,
Poured volley after volley in the midst of the enemy, who weren’t slack.

And one by one they fell, still the men fought without dismay,
And the regimental pet dog stuck to the heroes throughout the day;
And their cartridge pouches were empty, and of shot they were bereft,
And eleven men, most of them wounded, were all that were left.

And they broke from the enclosure, and followed by the little dog,
And with excitement it was barking savagely, and leaping like a frog;
And from the field the last eleven refused to retire,
And with fixed bayonets they charged on the enemy in that sea of fire.

Oh, heaven! it was a fearful scene the horrors of that day,
When I think of so many innocent lives that were taken away;
Alas! the British force were massacred in cold blood,
And their blood ran like a little rivulet in full flood.

And the Ghazis were afraid to encounter that gallant little band
At the charge of the bayonet : Oh! the scene was most grand;
And the noble and heroic eleven fought on without dismay,
Until the last man in the arms of death stiff and stark lay.




The Afghan Disaster

Later and fuller details of the conflict at Khushk-i-Nakhud have somewhat modified the impression made by the terrible word “annihilation,” which was by many persons not unnaturally interpreted almost in its literal sense. We now know that there was a hotly contested fight lasting over several hours, and that, lamentable as the losses were, half the defeated brigade reached Candahar. Still the destruction of life was almost unprecedentedly heavy, judging by the records of modern warfare, for this fight was quite unlike Isandlwhana, where a small body of Europeans, unprovided with the usual South African laager, were literally overwhelmed by a multitudinous horde of savages. At Khushk-i-Nakhud General Burrows, rashly, as the event proved, offered battle, quitting a defensive position for that purpose. The result of the action showed that both in men and guns he was overmatched, but, even if he was correctly informed of the strength of Ayoob Khan’s force, he may not have considered himself overmatched. Remembering the records of Indian battles, a General with 2,400 men, a large proportion of whom were Europeans, may have considered himself on part with a purely Asiatic enemy five times as numerous. According to present accounts, which, however, may possibly be modified hereafter, the Bombay Sepoys were unable to withstand the impetuous charge of the Ghazis, and thus threw the 66th into hopeless confusion. The defeat gradually became a rout, but it would seem that our unfortunate fellows did not fall so much beneath the swords of the pursuing foe as from the effect of thirst and fatigue. Some of the missing may, perhaps, have since come in, but it is more likely that those who sank from exhaustion were murdered by the surrounding villagers, and it is well know that the Afghans do not make prisoners. The miseries of that flight to Candahar, when many of the fugitives, at the hottest season of the year, went for four-and-twenty hours without a drop of water, will probably long be remembered. The most satisfactory feature of this disastrous business at present seems to be that Ayoob Khan either could not or would not follow up his success. If he had shown some of the vigor and promptitude of a really great general, he might have seriously imperiled our hold of the country. It is to be hoped that by this time reinforcements have poured in, and that Ayoob has lost his opportunity without hope of recovering it.

The Graphic, 7th August 1880
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ME NOW!!

That from mcgonagall-online.org

The site is full of his scratchings and he is ignored because who he is. These writings are quite incisive and show in graphic detail that life in Afganistan and the life of a soldier has not changed so much in 132 years.

Surely we can move on from this

(If you are of a mind, look up another poem - General Roberts in Afghanistan

"‘Twas in the year of 1878, and. the winter had set in,
Lord Roberts and the British Army their march did begin,
On their way to Afghanistan to a place called Cabul;
And the weather was bitter cold and the rivers swollen and full."

This goes to 16 verses and has a script of THE TIMES, 7th December 1878.

The truly distressing aspect of the foregoing is that people can make their minds up definitively and demand the ultimate penalty of a serving soldier BASED UPON WHAT THEY HAVE LEARNED FROM THE MEDIA.

RoB.quote

He can be held responsible. Justice pleads that he be held responsible to the fullest extent possible by being put down like the beast that he has allowed himself to become.

I would suggest to you that 'he has not allowed' anything of the sort. In most cases mental illness is something no-one 'allows' to happen to themselves. In many cases the person him/herself does not realise what is happening to them. It's usually someone close to them, or a colleague who sees the decline. Did no-one see any sign?

What has happened is tragic and one feels really sad for the victims. Nothing can make up for their tragedy.

JUSTICE must be done. Or will it be vengeance. Thank heavens it's not in my hands. Neither do I have to suffer the hatred you obviously feel for this fellow human being.

He also has a soul. Which may have been violated by what HE has gone through, and what has brought him to this state, if he IS mentally ill.

As Oftenwrong, who is oftenright says. Lets wait for the outcome of enquiry. Then talk about 'Justice'.

Rockonbrother.
I can not believe the contradictions in your attitudes to illegal killing in someone else’s country whilst wearing a US Military Uniform. Whilst reading your contradictory posts, made me wonder, where would you draw the line, If a US Soldier stole something when in Saudi Arabia, I guess it would be allright by you to hand him/her over to the Saudi’s to have their hands chopped off in the public square. Perhaps its that innocent lives have been taken that makes you want this action taken against this soldier, if that is the case, why then did you defend the murdering arseholes who committed an even greater atrocity, I speak of company C and the atrocity was of course the My Lai Massacre. You really are an inconsistent fellow Roc. You preach what you think is right, but only when it suits your argument.

Tell me Roc, what was the difference in the circumstances between a soldier who is in almost daily danger in Afghanistan or a whole Company of soldiers who are in almost daily danger in Vietnam. Now either they should all be handed over to the nation of the people they killed, or none should. What is it Roc, You can’t have it both ways.

My oppinion is that they should be tried as criminals and made to suffer the full weight of the law, not like Leutenant William Calley, who was given life at hard labour, but with the aid of Colin Powell only served just over three years. If This soldier was suffering with a psycological illness then he should be trated for it, just as if he was suffering from a bullet wound. Not as you want, to have the man killed before they even know WHY he did what he did.

It's generally not the policy to execute people who commit a crime due to a severe mental illness. Even our own capital punishment laws here in the USA will not usually execute someone insane. Understandably, this gives a fierce tug on our sense of justice - should this soldier spend a few years in the "puzzle factory" and then be released? Even if that occurred, his life is essentially over. Not only will he have to deal with what he did once he achieves lucidity, many folks will shun him as a murderer. Finding a job with that albatross around his neck will be nigh impossible - though I imagine some crazed women who adore murderers would shack up with him to raise a family. I wonder what his kids will think of Daddy the Murderer?

He's done either way, which means he will forever be in and out of "the system" and most likely will end up a criminal or committing suicide. I wonder, sometimes, whether executing the man wouldn't be the more humane thing to do.

bobby wrote:
Rockonbrother.
I can not believe the contradictions in your attitudes to illegal killing in someone else’s country whilst wearing a US Military Uniform.

That’s because there are no contradictions in my attitudes. One should not believe that which does not exist.

bobby wrote:
Whilst reading your contradictory posts…

As I have no contradictory posts, you’ve not read my contradictory posts. One cannot read that which does not exist.

bobby wrote:
… made me wonder, where would you draw the line…

You need not wonder about that which I have clearly stated.

RockOnBrother wrote:
U.S. soldiers are not trained to murder. There is no murkiness here; this beast engaged in three separate acts of premeditated illegal killing of innocent human beings. Period.

UCMJ, to which each volunteer U.S. serviceperson voluntarily submits herself/himself, prescribes a lesser and a greater consequence for pre-meditated murder, (1) life imprisonment, the lesser consequences, and (2) death, the greater consequence.

This beast committed a greater rather than a lesser offense, unless one can characterize pre-meditated massacre of sixteen innocent souls as a lesser offense; thus, this beast deserves nothing less than the greater consequence.

That’s option “2”; option “1”, the preferred option to me, is to hand the beast over to Afghan officials and turn our collective backs on him.

Note: The sixteen humans and their loved ones have been brutalized by war, most likely much longer than the beast who massacred the sixteen. The Taliban warred against the Afghan people long before NATO troops liberated them.

 
 

bobby wrote:
My oppinion is that they should be tried as criminals and made to suffer the full weight of the law…

It’s not “they”, it’s “he”, and I agree without reservation. The full extent of the law is found in Article 118 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

RockOnBrother wrote:
918. ARTICLE 118. MURDER
10. Punitive Articles

Any person subject to this chapter whom without justification or excuse, unlawfully kills a human being, when he- -

(1) has a premeditated design to kill;

(2) intends to kill or inflict great bodily harm;

(3) is engaged in an act which is inherently dangerous to others and evinces a wanton disregard of human life; or

(4) is engaged in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of burglary, sodomy, rape, robbery, or aggravated arson;

is guilty of murder, and shall suffer such punishment as a court-martial may direct, except that if found guilty under clause (1) or (4), he shall suffer death or imprisonment for life as a court-martial may direct.

http://www.ucmj.us/sub-chapter-10-punitive-articles/918-article-118-murder

 

bobby wrote:
Not as you want, to have the man killed before they even know WHY he did what he did.

I don’t care about why this beast, or any beast, chooses to arm himself and leave from his base with a pre-meditated intent to exterminate as many innocent souls as he can find in three separate locations. I care about the sixteen innocent souls the beast exterminated.

I care about the forevermore suffering to which the beast has sentenced every single loved one of the sixteen innocent souls the beast exterminated. My compassion for those countless souls is infinite. I cannot think of these victims of bestiality without breaking down in tears as I have just done.

I do not now apologize, and will never apologize as long as I am alive and cognizant, for having no compassion whatsoever for the beast.

Omniscience must be a terrible burden.

oftenwrong wrote:Omniscience must be a terrible burden.

It is!. Ooops .....I mean 'it must be'.

How can we judge anyone without knowing their real state of mind. As someone else has said, I have never been in the circumstances that these soldiers find themselves in. I do know how depression can affect from my own experience of years ago. But that is nothing to what these soldiers can experience.

What has happened is terrible and our hearts go out to these people. We would probably feel as they do.

There is a fine line between revenge and justice. Who can draw that line? I certainly can't in all cases.

In NI during the troubles a couple who lost their son said they forgave the killers who were eventually jailed. Justice was done.

Others have taken the opposite action and gone out to kill. Revenge was taken.

Other instances are not so clear cut.

In Sha'allah these people will find peace, either in Justice or their beliefs.

Many people would prefer to at least know the name of the beast before leaping to condemnation.



http://www.whoisthebeast.com/beast/markofthebeast.htm

Clearly the Public will not be given the name of this soldier until the Military Authorities deem it fit.

Until then, everyone is free to speculate upon his identity. How ironic it could be if a Staff Sergeant of Hispanic origin and with the not uncommon Hispanic name "Jesus" were to be the one identified.

"Jesus did it". The arguments could continue for millenia.

RoB quote

I disagree. He has chosen to do it.

Again you have chosen to convict this man on the grounds that he knew what he was doing. Do you categorically know that. If you have the proof go to the authorities.

In my early days, because of what I was doing at the time, I had cause to make visits to a mental institution. Not as a patient. The people there were often like you and I are now. They were happy and carefree until things happened to them, and they ended up in the hospital. Some, in the days before modern medicine, were 'lifers'. Now their lives can be controlled by medicine.

Mental illness strikes at any time and in any place to anyone, particularly under stress. Schizophrenia can do tricks to the mind without the person being aware. So can other conditions. A simple example being sleepwalking.

I don't know this MAN. I only know what I read he has done. I will not judge him on reports alone.

You and I will not agree so, for the sake of less argument, I propose to read your reply and leave it at that.

I REALLY AM DISTRESSED AT THE EVENT. MY HEART GOES OUT TO THE RELATIVES IN THE TRAGIC EVENT - AND TO ALL WHO HAVE SUFFERED IN THE TRAGIC MIDDLE EAST.

Burglar breaks into a house, and as he is looking around hears a wee voice

"Jesus is watching you!"

Bugger looks around (Burglar WHOOPS) and in his torchlight sees a parrot in his cage

"What's all this of Jesus?" he asks the parrot

"Jesus is my master's 9 stone Rottweiler who is right behind you!"

Yes it is an old one, but we ARE the best!

Quote Astra

Yes it is an old one, but we ARE the best

Absolutely, undoubtedly, unequivocably, TRUE. Oh and you're right. But? you're still a young'un yet.

My original questions were and are:
1.Should the perpetrator be tried in Afghanistan?
2.Should the perpetrator be executed?

Rock. This is a very good topic for discussion, but your original thread title was also weighed down with a reference to the BBC. If this soldier, who's probably mentally shattered, is handed over to the Afghans, he will no doubt he executed - probably as a public spectacle of vengeance - so your second question was superfluous. If you want to debate capital punishment, please do so on the 'General Discussion' board.

I would request that others stick to the very distressing subject of this thread. We have provision for jokes to be posted on the 'Fun and Favourites' board, this is definitely not the place.

Again you have chosen to convict this man on the grounds that he knew what he was doing.


Incorrect. I have chosen to report truth; i.e., I have chosen to (1) report the BBC account of the extermination, and (2) publicly condemn the beast who has committed this bestial act. The grounds upon which I have don so are that he committed sixteen bestial acts

Read what I said. I said nothing about him not doing it.

The name Jesus turns up in as many places and Languages as does Mohammad, Muhamad spell it as you will

As OW refers to, a name can muddy waters (appologies to the singer of that name) just as the complainant wants it to. My sister in Law was EXPERT at just that and could start an argument in a Wake!

until facts are known, all is conjecture. IMO some facts will not be known for at least 25 years.

Astra quote

As OW refers to, a name can muddy waters (appologies to the singer of that name) just as the complainant wants it to. My sister in Law was EXPERT at just that and could start an argument in a Wake!


Now that is impressive

What I dont understand about this Rockonbrother Geezer. Is how on another debate he could defend the Us Beasts (to use a word he likes ) who whilst serving in the US military during the Vietnam war, after a full company of them entered an undefended village called My Lai, and went on a spree of rape, torture, mutilation and murder, the vast majority of the victims where women and children, non where armed, none where a threat to the Cowardly slags in US Uniforms, yet they did what they did. As I said Rockonbrother found every excuse in the book and made some up as to why these poor troops committed the atrocity. Now we have 1 trigger happy US Soldier and this Rockonbrother thinks he should be handed over to the Afghans for either torture and execution. Talk about double standards. Not only that, just who the phuck does he think he is, to act as judge and Jury, when we don’t know the mental state of this Soldier, and why does he think its right for the My Lai murderers to go free, but not this individual.

Rock you can fill as many pages as you like with your nonsense, but it wont make you right, all you are doing as far as I am concerned is simply proving that my opinion of you is correct, and I think you know what that is. Now go crying to the moderator as you did before.

I agree with the thrust of the above posting, excepting only the ad hominem content.


Update:
The U.S. soldier alleged to have killed 16 Afghans in a weekend shooting rampage has been flown to Kuwait, a defense official tells Barbara Starr.

Earlier, Chris Lawrence reported that one reason the soldier was flown out of Afghanistan was because U.S. military did not have the proper facility to hold the soldier for "longer than he is being held."

Kuwait has the military legal infrastructure and personnel to deal with the soldier, Barbara Starr reports.


15.35 ET CNN

I believe that most of the so called civilised western powers have made mistakes, and since the Second World War the Americans have made the largest number of mistakes because they are the largest western power.

In times gone by the British made some terrible blunders, and made some disgraceful errors of judgement, like for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amritsar_Massacre the Jallianwala Bagh massacre.

The only positive thing that can come from such wrongful acts is that we learn from them.

Withchfinder quote.

The only positive thing that can come from such wrongful acts is that we learn from them.

How I wish man would learn. The only lesson we have learnt over history is that modern man can kill more people with one bomb, that took the Assyrian Or Babylon empire armies a campaign to achieve.

World wars 1 & 2 proved that we haven't learnt much. Genocide, practised from time immemorial, Saturation bombing and destruction of cities and inhabitants. Ok saturation bombing is fairly new, even if you include catapults, but the destruction is the same.

I'm not questioning the rights and wrongs of such actions in WW2. Just the fact that these things are not new.

Korea, Vietnam, Balkans, Africa. Nothing new under the sun as the Preacher' has it.

Man is brilliant at many things, taking us forward. But disasterous at learning lessons.

I am a US taxpayer. The US military is funded entirely by federal taxes. No US taxpayer should pay for water, food, clothing, shelter, and armament for anyone who chooses to use that which he has been provided on our dimes to facilitate extermination of innocent human souls.




RockOnBrother
Moderator



Posts: 1243
Join date: 2011-10-07






Then all military personnel should be withdrawn immediately before someone orders troops to shell another compound/vehicle containing women and children. That includes US and NATO troops.

RockOnBrother

I do realise that this thread has gone a little way off topic, as is often the case on the message boards, but I was responding to the posting by bobby (above).

I do think that people are jumping the gun just a little, there is much we do not know about regarding the incident in Kandahar, there are certain rumours flying about which are been reported on CNN and other US sites.

For example - it is rumoured that this particular soldier suffered a traumatic brain injury in Iraq in 2010, if this proves to be true, then this in itself would lead to many questions been asked, like for example how and why was such a person allowed to continue serving. ?

I do think RockOnBrother that you are a little bit intollerant of the idea that this incident could be the result of a man with a psychiatric problem, a mental break down or diminished responsibility.

Such things can and do happen, it is a credible reason and it proves the point that not everything is simply black or white, there are often grey areas and unusual or exceptional circumstances.

THINK ABOUT THIS > Would we lock up a 75 year old lady suffering from dementia because she stole something from a store or shop. ?

Christian interpretation of the Biblical passage has been heavily influenced by the quotation from Leviticus in Jesus of Nazareth's Sermon on the Mount. In the Expounding of the Law (part of the Sermon on the Mount), Jesus urges his followers to turn the other cheek when confronted by violence: You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38–39)

This saying of Jesus is frequently interpreted as criticism of the Old Testament teaching.