Is Mormonism a "cult", or just the great American religion?

First topic message reminder :

Mark Twain described the Book of Mormon as "chloroform in print”. Could a Mormon, namely Mitt Romney, be elected President of the USA in 2012?

Mormons believe that their first prophet, Joseph Smith, discovered golden plates in upstate New York in the 1820s, and that he translated them with the help of magic stones, discovering them to contain an alternative Bible. They also believe that Jesus visited America after the crucifixion in order to take his message to the descendants of ancient Israelite tribes who had lived there for centuries, forgotten by history and unknown to modern archaeology. How has this strange offshoot of Christianity survived for nearly 200 years?

Nelson Jones offers us an explanation:-

“The religion's strength comes from its quintessentially American nature. It is almost the theological expression of America itself - as baseball is its sporting expression, or Coca Cola its liquid one. Its history, first of all, is the story of the frontier and of settlement. Just as the United States is a country of immigrants, many of whom came fleeing persecution in their own country, so the early Mormons were chased from town to ever remoter town until, under the leadership of Brigham Young, they established their own mini-America in Utah. In Salt Lake City, they recreated the ideals of the Pilgrim Fathers, establishing a new and godly community far from the corruption of the world. It was an achievement that called for all the great American virtues of self-reliance, ruggedness, family values, courage and fortitude.”

For the full article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/star-spangled-staggers/2011/10/american-religion-mormonism

Why do Mormons always seem to carry smarter-looking Bibles than everyone else?

I see all religions as a tool, a tool used by one group of people to put another down, historically it is mainly a small possibly vulnerable group will use religious belief to keep a larger possibly less advanced people check, by literally putting the fear of God up them. Lets face it, when Cortez and his mob went on the rampage in the America‘s, the natives they came across saw them as gods due to the fact they could kill them without an apparent weapon (a Gun). In the Middle East tribal leaders kept the downtrodden in check, by the promise of a Messiah.
I have a theory that could explain Jesus Christ. In ancient Jewish Law, marriage is the joining not only of two people, but of two families, and once a contract of marriage had been entered into, both participants had to behave appropriately.
I think that when Joe was engaged to Mary, she went down the road, and had a bit of nooky with Moshe the cobbler, only Moshe forgot what the withdrawal method of birth control was, and left himself in to soak.
When it was found by her Family that she was up the spout, the Family feared for her, as she stood to be stoned to death. They went and had a word with Joe who was probably madly in love with the young and free Mary, so between them concocting a story. The Jews at that time where extremely superstitious and had been awaiting the coming of the Messiah and all they got was the coming of dirty old Moshe the cobbler.
The plan they raised was that Mary was visited by an Angel of the Lord and was told that she was carrying Gods Child, Her Family was happy with this as it saved Mary from certain stoning, and Joe was as happy as could be expected as he probably had some feeling for her, and forgave her infidelity. The problem came after the child was born, because the had to keep up the lie, even to the child himself. Jesus thinking himself to be the Son of God, behaved just as a Son of God was expected to, and the possible truth was never released until the Freedom of information act was put into Law. Some may say that my theory is a total load of twaddle, but I say it has as much right to be believed as an Immaculate conception.
Christianity has been used ever since the 3rd Century as a very efficient tool.

I highly recommend the movie/documentary called Lord Save Us From Your Followers. It's an American film about Americans, but it has to be since America is uniquely religious among the industrialized nations. To encapsulate, it is not a Christian-bashing film; in fact, it is produced and hosted by a Christian. The documentary is about one Christian who is taking a stand against evangelism, the main theme being how American Christianity has actually moved away from the teaching of Christ. The message of love, charity, and hope is no longer present, and as one person said, "I no longer hear Christ in the message." This Christian has come forward to admit that many Christians don't sound very nice when they talk about God and how they need to start listening to themselves, or more to the point, imagine how they would feel if they were on the receiving end of their own words.

One of my favorite scenes was when he actually set up a confession booth at a Gay Pride rally. Except it wasn't so gays could confess their sins. It was so that he could confess and apologize for his religion's lack of love, empathy, and compassion. The gays and lesbians were so touched and appreciative that few could hold back their tears.

Another good scene was how Christians from all over the US banned together to set up charitable works in some poor area, and they actually got down on their knees to wash the feet of the homeless. They said they were there not to judge, but to help even knowing some might be drunk or high. It was time to stop being mean to those Jesus favored - the poor, the sick, and the helpless. It was time to begin having a real dialogue between conservatives and liberals.

What was interesting is that he took liberals and conservatives and arranged a "game show" where the questions were "rigged" so that each side would have to answer questions about the other side's beliefs and ideologies. The liberals trounced the conservatives in both matches. The older conservatives lost by a huge margin, and the college-aged conservatives couldn't even score a single point. One of the conservatives actually admitted afterward that he and his side couldn't escape their own little box they had built for themselves; all of their answers had to come from their own way of thinking.

It even gets into discussing the absurd notion that America is somehow "chosen" or "blessed" by God. One man from Scotland was saying how "God created the whole world," not just America, and how one American said Scotland didn't even exist. The Europeans were flabbergasted with how so many evangelical Americans have hijacked a world religion and act as though Christianity is exclusively "theirs."

It is a very good film and I'm going to start touting it to all of those right-wing Christians who pretend to be such wonderful people - until you start talking politics when they start slamming the poor and advocating greed over charity.

For Rocks sake....getting back to the question

All religions probably think others are Cults, except their own of course. I also notice that when you question these people on their own religion (Rock again) they are reluctant or cannot to answer and as usual with organised religions, claim they are being insulted.

Roc Wrote
" I far prefer Catholic cathedrals over these pyramids."

Perhaps now, but wasn’t Cortez and his band of cutthroats around at the time of the inquisition, and used that same inquisition to keep all they came across in check. So at that time no Roman Catholic Church was any better than an Aztec Pyramid. Both Cortez and the Aztecs where Killing people and both for religious reasons.

RockOnBrother wrote:

blueturando wrote:
All religions probably think others are Cults…

Scholarship requires precise thinking. Precise thinking requires precise differentiation.

.... and in the case of this quote, precise spelling.

If you believe that raping young virgin women is equivalent to a “Roman Catholic Church”, believe on.

What about raping young virgin boys?

Ooooh, that's below the belt!

And the difference to the Rape victim is???????

Is Mormonism a cult?


cult
   [kuhlt] Show IPA

noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3.
the object of such devotion.

4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5.
Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

Ergo, by virtue of the very definition of "cult", ALL religions are cults.

blueturando wrote:Rock....I have no idea whether God...or a God/Gods exists and neither do you. You can believe there is one, but no one really knows....anyway....I thought the thread was about religions and cults?
For arguments sake lets just say there is a God (even though I doubt there is) Religions and versions of God/Gods change over time, because they are man made...and humans are very fickle. One minute it one religion and the next its something else. So God may not change, but man made religions do and that's why they are all Cults

God exists in us all, well at least that's my philosophy. It (god) may not be in the physical sense, but in our consciousness. If you choose not to believe that, then that's your choice. Religions are in essence a vehicle for transporting the message of god, so in that respect are man made. For Christians it is the message that the Son of God (Jesus) gave. For other religions there are different vehicles such as the Prophet Mohammed for Muslims.

Regarding Mormons, the church is called 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints'. Mormons believe that the other Christian churches have gone astray. They have a strong emphasis on family values and oppose such things as smoking, drinking alcohol, sex before marriage amongst other things. I'm not a Mormon which is just as well, as I enjoy the odd pint or three! Is it a cult? Not sure on that one, but I suppose they do have some cult-like attributes!

In my research on the UFO phenomenon, you run into a lot of cults such as Heaven's Gate. Thus I've run across other definitions of what a cult actually is. Perhaps the most important point in all of this is that a cult does not have to center around a religion, but a religion can still be a cult despite the religious beliefs of its members. In other words, it's not a cult because of their religion but rather because of their behavior. Having said that, I prefer a definition that encompasses a few key points:

1) A cult is usually personality-driven. Often there is a singular charismatic leader calling all of the shots. This could be anyone from the Pope to Jim Jones to Jesus Christ himself. One of the telltale signs of cult behavior is believing in the words of the leader - not on the merit of the words themselves, but because the leader said them. However moral or immoral the words are in relation to secular law or societal views, the followers will heed them even if it goes against their own personal moral compass. Fortunately, religions like Christianity tend to emphasize a fluffier message than, say, radical Islam or else the West might be as war-torn as parts of the Middle East. However, the Bible (for example) is filled with atrocities committed by God that, if committed by a human, would have been immediately denounced. Yet God, himself the personality driving Christianity, is often exonerated and even defended in his horrific actions. This is a prime example of how the speaker is more important than the words; how a personality-driven organization can cause people to defend that which they would never defend under ordinary circumstances.

Does Mormonism (or any religion) fit the bill? Check.

2) A cult is denoted by isolation. Often, cults exist in far away, remote places where they won't be bothered by outside views. Speaking of that, in America, Christianity is VERY resistant to outside views. Taking America as a whole, we are an isolated nation. We are far away from any other influence - and even Canada and Mexico are far away from those living in places like Manhattan, Kansas or Tulsa, Oklahoma. This isolation has caused America to become extremely religious and very Christian. Individually, Christians themselves are resistant to any other viewpoints, and I have discovered myself that very few Christians are actually interested in an honest debate about their beliefs. Christianity has gotten too large and too "mainstream" to exist in the type of isolation it seems to want ... but we see traces of it. For instance, Christian schools, Christian dating services, employers who will only hire Christians, Christian clubs - I have even seen Christian guilds in online games - and, of course Christian message boards and Christian threads where atheists are not permitted to post. The urge to isolate and insulate themselves is present and very strong, but demographics makes that impossible. Keep in mind that America was founded by a cult - the Puritans - and what better way to isolate themselves than to move to an unsettled land 3,000 miles across the Atlantic?

But there is another kind of isolation, that being cultural isolation. This is a when a group becomes so absorbed in their own comings, goings, and doings that the rest of the world is essentially shut out. Their worlds are very small and very focused, and they rarely socialized with anyone outside of their group. Do religions do that? Yes ... but some more than others. This type of isolation usually applies to smaller cults rather than mainstream religion. However, Mormons are known to be asked to cut off ties with family members who forsake Mormonism, and THAT is a big give-away of cult behavior.

So do the Mormons and other religions fit the bill? Yes and no. It really depends on how you look at it. For me, I say: check.

3) Cults often have a persecution complex, an "us vs. them" mentality. Do I need to say more? In the US, at least, church leaders and right-wing politicians both claim that Christianity is being persecuted. Rick Perry even said that he will do whatever it takes to stop "Obama's war on Christianity." Even on the micro level, I am repeatedly met with anger if I dare question Christianity; on Moonbeam's site, I was put on ignore by several Christian posters who didn't like my atheism. Then they would talk among themselves about being "belittled," "ridiculed," and "persecuted" for their beliefs.

Does Mormonism and religion fit the bill? That's affirmative. No doubt there.

4) Finally, another indicator of cult behavior is teaching members that those who leave are flawed, evil, sinful, or whatever other pejorative adjective you wish to supply. This is the only one of the four where there is sufficient doubt to conclude, no, religion as a whole does not teach this. Except Mormonism and certain sects of Islam. While some individual churches might shun those who convert to some other belief system, generally speaking, those who leave the faith are not shunned or exiled. However, this seems to be making a comeback among conservatives who will often claim, "If you're not Christian, you're un-American!" and Santorum has expressed his desire to use the government to "nudge" people into living "more virtuous lifestyles." This essentially means using the tax and legal system to punish those who do not adhere to Christian values - i.e. if you leave the faith, you will be punished because those not of the faith are flawed or "not virtuous."

What's hysterical is that the primary argument against these four points is that "some mainstream religions demonstrate these points, as well." Really? Then those who make this argument are admitting that those religions are cults. Thanks! It's so much easier when your opposition inadvertently agrees with you.

In conclusion, based on those 4 points, it could easily be argued that all religions are cults even if not all cults are religious.

Hi folks, well I use to enjoy a good debate with the two mormons that called to preach their gospel, mainly as an atheist to prove them wrong. We had some great chats but they could not beat me ahah. Then one week they sent one of their big boys cos he was really going trying to convert me,but when I had finished asking mine which he could not answer he gave up and they have not been back since, shame really

Shirina wrote:I highly recommend the movie/documentary called Lord Save Us From Your Followers.

It is on youTube. This is the first part of 6...

ROB wrote:... that young virgin boys raped by Roman Catholic priests have seen their rapists brought to justice, have recovered substantial damages from associated individuals/organizations...

Apart from the millenia difference which is significant, I have to say I admire your trust in the actions of the RC Church. They currently have an ex-Pope hiding in the vatican and avoiding paying for his complicity in the whole affair. If they were serious about recompense then there would be a major criminal investigation going on involving the Vatican archives instead of, what I expect is, the hum of shredders in the basement.

I also doubt that, at the time the Aztecs were sacrificing virgins, anyone was making much progress over the sacrifice of altar boys either.

Bellatori, your quote of ROBs that you chose to comment on is very true, I should think the shredders are going so fast, you would need an awful lot of priests to clear the mess up and burn it, before the authorities found any of it. Why is he in hiding at the vatican if he is so lovely and innocent?

Well Bellatori it looks like it is just myself and you posting for the recent posts for two years? c'mon everyone join in the debate so we can get more opinions.

stu wrote:Well Bellatori it looks like it is just myself and you posting for the recent posts for two years? c'mon everyone join in the debate so we can get more opinions.

Gimme a chance stu - don't you know it's Sunday, were all at church!  (actually, watching the rugby, Exeter Chiefs v Cardiff - we slaughtered them!)  

Mormonism is just another guilt trip for its followers. Don't drink tea/coffee/alcohol, or you might enjoy yourself. As for cutting family ties, my Mormon sister keeps in touch. She would prefer not to visit her mother, however, so her belief system doesn't make her particularly Christian in her attitudes to others, but at least she can sleep at night knowing she hasn't had a cup of tea for 25 years... 

stu wrote:Well Bellatori it looks like it is just myself and you posting for the recent posts for two years? c'mon everyone join in the debate so we can get more opinions.

Unfortunately, a lot of the believers here decided to take off a'runnin' so it's hard to get an actual debate going on this topic.

Shirina wrote:

stu wrote:Well Bellatori it looks like it is just myself and you posting for the recent posts for two years? c'mon everyone join in the debate so we can get more opinions.

Unfortunately, a lot of the believers here decided to take off a'runnin' so it's hard to get an actual debate going on this topic.

The problem, as I see it, Shirina, is that if you invest your emotional baggage in something that has more holes than a colander it becomes increasingly untenable to defend once a public forum gets to grips with them. Given the rather tenuous grip most theists have on either their religion or the structural arguments that support them your comment about the run for cover is entirely understandable.

 Exeter fan or Cardiff fan Kazza? well Kazza mormonism is a very strange religion, I do not think you can call it a cult, but one presumes which side of the fence you are standing. It must also be very sad to have your family split by religion, fortunately or unfortunately depending who you are, I have been an atheist for as long as I can remember. That unfortunately split my family up too.

Big Exeter Chiefs fan stu. 44-29 win today, so husband in jovial mood.  

Mormonism is more like a cult it seems to me, judging by the way its adherents set themselves apart from conventional Christianity, the way they recruit 'elders' at a young age to spread the word and set specific rules regarding behaviour, consumption of food and dress codes. Ah, that just about covers all religious beliefs...

Bellatori wrote:

Shirina wrote:

stu wrote:Well Bellatori it looks like it is just myself and you posting for the recent posts for two years? c'mon everyone join in the debate so we can get more opinions.

Unfortunately, a lot of the believers here decided to take off a'runnin' so it's hard to get an actual debate going on this topic.

The problem, as I see it, Shirina, is that if you invest your emotional baggage in something that has more holes than a colander it becomes increasingly untenable to defend once a public forum gets to grips with them. Given the rather tenuous grip most theists have on either their religion or the structural arguments that support them your comment about the run for cover is entirely understandable.

True, that.

However, I also know that it can be decidedly difficult to defend your beliefs (regardless of what they are) if you feel you're being dogpiled upon by a significantly larger number of opponents. I do have a fair amount of sympathy for, say, JP Cusick who is the only person on the forum defending a belief in God. I know it can suck when you feel like you have no allies.

Don't get me wrong, though. I tend to disagree with most of JP Cusick's religious views (naturally given that I'm atheistic) but I do have respect for his tenacity.

Now, where the hell is polyglide? He'd be fun to debate with.  

Kazza wrote:

stu wrote:Well Bellatori it looks like it is just myself and you posting for the recent posts for two years? c'mon everyone join in the debate so we can get more opinions.

Gimme a chance stu - don't you know it's Sunday, were all at church!  (actually, watching the rugby, Exeter Chiefs v Cardiff - we slaughtered them!)  

You did us home and away last year in the HC, I travelled to Exeter for that game, we were piss poor. 

We did however turn the Harlequins over yesterday on their own patch.  

Hi Doc how goes it, how are you finding the new forum?

Hi Kazza luv are you from the amazon crew with the rest of us as you joined on the same day ?

stu wrote:Hi Doc how goes it, how are you finding the new forum?

Very good, just finding my feet and learning how to use the format.

 
 same here, the old one is just about dead lol

dinner time then bedtime mate, night for now

stu wrote:Hi Kazza luv are you from the amazon crew with the rest of us as you joined on the same day ?

Hi stu, sorry I assumed you knew who I was, it's K Hoyles from Amazon. I like it here, don't you? Funny how it doesn't take long to settle in. I've forgotten the old site with its inexplicable deletions and bans already.  

Hi Doc - oh dear, bad luck.  Good game though! We lost abysmally to Leicester last week, deservedly so, we were rubbish.

Hi Kazza LUV i guessed it was you but wasn't sure, glad you are here though and been enjoying our chats, and no nego votes either brill isn't it