The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  , but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.

Employment Law remains on the statute book. Of course the Tories want to get rid of it, which is why they must first withdraw from the European Community. In the meantime, the obvious course is to do anything and everything which will facilitate the election of a Labour Government next May.

Not to cry "wolf" every time some fascist cries for the reintroduction of slavery.

This probably needs to be read very slowly….   
 
Once they get elected, all MEPs join groups of like-minded representatives in the European Parliament. The largest group is the European People’s Party (EPP), whose members are mainly centre-right Christian Democrats from across the EU. There is also the Party of European Socialists (PES), to which Labour MEPs belong. Our one Lib Dem MEP will join ALDE, which is not a chain of budget supermarkets but the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe. There is also the European Green Party (EGP), and the loony outfit to which Farage and his pals belong (when they bother to attend) is called the Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD).
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_groups_of_the_European_Parliament
 
The EFD includes representatives of the far-right Dutch SGP and the infamous Italian Lega Nord. Farage is co-president of the group along with Lega Nord’s Francesco Speroni, who described multiple murderer Anders Breivik as someone whose “ideas are in defence of western civilisation”. (Mario Borghezio, another member of the group, declared in a radio interview that Breivik had some "excellent" ideas.) The group has until now included the Danish People’s Party (DPP) and the right-wing nationalist Finns Party (previously known as True Finns).
 
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence
 
In 2009, Cameron (I believe under pressure from William Hague) decided that the EPP wasn’t right-wing enough for our rabid Tory MEPs and set up the European Conservatives and Reformists group (ECR). Now the DPP and the Finns Party have left Farage’s mob and been accepted into the ECR. In other words, British Tory MEPs have voted to align themselves with two nationalist right-wing parties in the European Parliament, a move that risks alienating the allies Cameron needs if he is to win back powers from Brussels. As Stephen Tindale, an associate fellow at the Centre for European Reform think tank, has said: “Cameron’s MEPs are in alliance with some pretty unpleasant characters and that is going to make it more difficult to have a constructive conversation. The risk is that it is going to make it more difficult to get concessions out of the European Commission and the European Council in terms of Britain's reform agenda.”
 
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/06/05/uk-britain-politics-eu-idUKKBN0EG1NG20140605
 
Gareth Thomas, Labour’s shadow Europe minister, said: "Cameron must now be open with the British public about the dubious views of his new partners in Europe, and explain the decision to form an alliance with politicians whose views are rejected by many mainstream leaders across Europe. He considered these parties too extreme to ally with in 2009, so now he needs to explain what has changed. Cameron has isolated himself from allies in the EU, and now his MEPs are withdrawing to the extreme fringes of acceptable politics within Europe."
 
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/05/david-cameron-under-fire-as-dpp-and-true-finns-enter-ecr-group
 
It would seem that, not for the first time, Cameron’s judgement is flawed.  

"It would seem that, not for the first time, Cameron’s judgement is flawed."

Not necessarily flawed, but variable, like a weather-vane. Depending upon which way the wind is blowing at the time.

Cameron is running out of time to show that he is serious about keeping Britain in the EU
 
Extracts from an article by Rafael Behr:-
 
"For Tory sceptics, changes to the rules on free movement of workers should top Britain’s list of renegotiation demands. Other EU leaders have made it clear that the principle of porous borders is sacrosanct. In any case, there won’t be any substantive discussions before next May because other heads of government – chiefly Angela Merkel – are waiting to see whether the Tories can survive a general election.

Merkel is unimpressed by the decision of Tory MEPs to make common cause in the EU Parliament with Alternative for Germany, a fringe party hostile to the single currency. This compounds the offence caused in 2009 when Cameron took the Tories out of the EPP – the mainstream centre-right group of which Merkel’s Christian Democrats are lead players. German officials and diplomats are scathing about that choice, seeing it as a naive and self-defeating gesture that surrendered British influence in exchange for a moment’s respite from implacable Tory MPs. Merkel took some persuading that Cameron should be taken seriously after such an elementary blunder.

On another front, Cameron is campaigning to block the appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker as the next president of the European Commission. That the Tories would have more of a say in the matter had they stayed in the EPP is a point made with some relish by those in Brussels who are tired of British equivocation and who doubt that Cameron’s heart is really in the EU."
 
For the whole article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/cameron-running-out-time-show-he-serious-about-keeping-britain-eu

Cameron wants Britain in the EU because then he can blame Europe's instability on Britain's unemployment.  Also Cameron wants to be in Europe because he is waiting for Europe to go right wing and and adopt the free market we have had since Thatcher and then Cameron wants to run things from the inside, he wants another empire.
 
Ivanhoe

The countries of origin of today’s immigrants are more diverse than they were 50 years ago. In 1960 a full 75 percent of the foreign-born population residing in the United States came from Europe, while today only 12 percent of the immigrant population emigrated from Europe. In 2010 11.7 million foreign-born residents—29 percent of the foreign-born population—came from Mexico. About 2.2 million immigrants residing in the United States came from China; 1.8 million came from each India and the Philippines; 1.2 million immigrated from each Vietnam and El Salvador; and 1.1 million arrived from each Cuba and Korea.
Immigrants today are putting down roots across the United States, in contrast to trends we saw 50 years ago. In the 1960s two-thirds of U.S. states had populations with less than 5 percent foreign-born individuals, but the opposite is true today. In 2010 two-thirds of states had immigrant populations above 5 percent. In 2010, 67 percent of the foreign born lived in the West and the South—a dramatic shift since the 1960s, when 70 percent of the immigrant population lived in the Northeast and Midwest.

Still UKIP WILL SOON SHOW THE US HOW TO DO IT.. HA-HA

The outcry against "immigrants" unsurprisingly strikes a chord among the unemployed and low-paid when UKIP and Tories bang the drum for political purposes, but an important segment consists of wealthy foreigners who find this a good place to bring their money and expertise.

The parallel is with British ex-pats who have bought property and found business opportunities in France, Spain and similar EU countries as a result of freedom of movement.

oftenwrong wrote:Employment Law remains on the statute book.  Of course the Tories want to get rid of it, which is why they must first withdraw from the European Community.  In the meantime, the obvious course is to do anything and everything which will facilitate the election of a Labour Government next May.

Not to cry "wolf" every time some fascist cries for the reintroduction of slavery.

I Could not agree more with you. we must facilitate the election of a Labour Government in 2015. as Europe for the right wing means just a business club and no social policy or new back down Employment laws for the UK people. its always most interesting that the right wing always plays on the fears of the Chinese economy and how we need to compete with them while glossing over the fact that they have one of the worlds worst records on Employment law and social policy going today while the Kippers play on British peoples fears of everything European. yet the biggest UK economic failures have come about though poor business investmernt with poor Government backing of UK Manufacturing and research and development funding and not Employment laws or social policy.

once more today we see that Manufacturing output in the UK fell by 1.3% in May 2014 from 0.4% while Annual industrial production probably gained to 3.2% vs. 3.0%. Update on the UK industrial production will likely offer fresh hints over the health of the UK economy days ahead of most-watched UK trade data and central bank monetary policy announcement on Thursday. but now ask yourself two simple questions?

Q would us leaving the EEC help our industrial production?

Q Would manufacting output rise as a result of us leaving Europe?

the answer i believe is NO to both questions.

i myself find the right wings idea of weakening Employment laws even more will have no great impact on our long tearm industrial production and Manufacturing outpu at all. if you are going to cut away some EU Exports markets.

key data

EU Exports for April 2014 are £11.5 billion. This is a decrease of £2.1 billion (15.8 per cent) compared to last month. It is also a decrease of £0.6 billion (4.9 per cent) compared to April 2013. However, this decrease is likely to reduce when updated next month.

EU Imports April 2014 are £17.9 billion. This is a decrease of £1.1 billion (5.8 per cent) compared to last month. However it is an increase of £0.2 billion (0.9 per cent) compared to April 2013.

he UK is a net importer this month, with imports exceeding exports by £6.4 billion. This is an increase of £1.0 billion (19.6 per cent) compared to last month, and an increase of £0.8 billion (13.3 per cent) compared to April 2013

"You'll be hearing from my Seconds"

The Meaning of a British Exit from the European Union

From an article by John McCormick:-

"Britain outside the EU would be unable to resist the gravitational economic and political pull of living next to the wealthiest marketplace in the world. And just like Norway and Switzerland, it would find itself compelled to adjust to EU law and policy without having any say over the shaping of that law or policy.

Britain would lose most of its present-day attractions for foreign companies seeking a toehold in the EU. It seems quite likely that many US, Japanese and Chinese companies would scale back or avoid investing in a UK that was not part of the EU, instead turning to countries that were inside the EU and thus enjoying the benefits brought by free movement of capital, people, goods and services with its neighbours.

It is also clear that Britain outside the EU would have a far quieter voice in global affairs than it has today. As it is, the EU routinely plays second fiddle to the United States on international security matters. However, Britain,as a member of a club of more than half a billion people, will always have a louder voice in the world than if it tries to go it alone. And anyone who believes that it can fall back on its ‘special relationship’ with the United States is deluding only themselves. The US will be much less interested in Britain if it leaves the EU."

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eurocrisispress/2014/07/29/the-meaning-of-a-british-exit-from-the-european-union/

"The US will be much less interested in Britain if it leaves the EU."

With the possible exception of Starbucks, Google, ebay, Microsoft, Apple, Sony, MacDonalds, Kraft etcetera, etc.

David Cameron has now passed the point of no return on Europe

Extracts from an article by Polly Toynbee:-

"By proposing to limit free movement of labour from the EU Cameron has planted himself on the side of the outs, as José Manuel Barroso made crystal clear. The other 27 nations will never agree: if that's Cameron’s new red line then he has joined the UKIP wing of his party, who won’t let him renege. Barroso laid bare his contempt for the Cameron government’s Euro-madness, spelling out the consequences of British withdrawal: banks and businesses have told him they would leave, along with car manufacturers and financial services.

Cameron used an anti-EU ploy to secure the Tory leadership. He won with a promise to withdraw the Tories from the European People’s Party, outraging natural allies such as Angela Merkel. That bartering of British influence was the telling moment: Cameron would put his political interest ahead of his country’s in ways that would surely shock previous Tory PMs. His strategy against UKIP has been a disaster: first he ignored them, then he insulted them, now he imitates them.

As a pro-EU party, Labour can admit life is full of difficult trade-offs: leaving the EU would harm the country far more than taking in young and productive migrants. They could say that money brought in by migration should be pledged for those communities who most need new homes and schools, the poorest whose anger has been turned against newcomers. That won’t assuage the rage of Faragists who hate foreign languages spoken on trains, yet with few making the pro-EU case loudly enough, polls still find more people wanting to stay in."

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/21/david-cameron-europe-red-lines

I'm afraid Ivan that where I live every day gets worse for people supporting UKIP, they are so racist too, it is almost unbelievable the amount it has changed over the last year.

This crude assault on Europe strikes at the very heart of Enlightenment values

Extracts from an article by Will Hutton:-

"Without Protestant Holland, William Tyndale would have had no home to print the Bible in English. The Industrial Revolution was fuelled by exiled scientists and entrepreneurs from all over Europe. The UKIP/Tory story that Britain’s greatness was built on independence from Europe is a fairytale. We are as much part of our continent’s history and evolution, and share its values, as any other European country.

The EU is a club of 28 nations whose minimal ambition is peaceful reconciliation of conflicting national interests and whose vaulting hope is to unleash the continent’s creativity by making a single economic space whose multinational governance can be consistent with national sovereignty. Its design faults are obvious to everyone and its critics have a virtual free run, especially in the UK. But Europe, whether in energy, banking, transport, security, telephony, climate change, air traffic control or overfishing, has a breathtaking density of interdependencies and inter-relationships.

Real Britishness - our fairmindedness, our tolerance, our openness - is being torched before our eyes. The majority of us don’t like or want what Farage and Tory Eurosceptic bullies peddle; one poll reported support for the EU reaching 56%. Nor do we want noxious pop songs, whites-only taxi firms and the stirring of anti-semitism. The EU, for all its frailties and imperfections, is an important and noble endeavour. It stands for the best of our civilisation and its Enlightenment values. It now needs friends. Time to stand by it."

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/26/crude-assault-on-europe-strikes-at-enlightenment-values

Wow Ivan and OW.
I am almost glad that I have had insomnia tonight, just to have the chance to read your posts. I knew it was important that we stayed in the community, but for the full reasons I didn't.
The rubbish that UKIP and the Tory Eurosceptic bullies are peddling is not as obvious as you think chaps, because if you stopped my next door neighbours and some just a little further afield, they would not know what on earth you were talking about.
I speak to two of my friends with regards to what we talk about on here sometimes, and they have no idea whatsoever with what is going on in politics, yet it is them and plenty more like them putting their cross on the Ballot paper.

Polly Toynbee was right, the point of no return has arrived. The Bullingdon boys graduated from wrecking restaurants to wrecking the NHS, the welfare state and everything else they can lay their grubby hands on. Now they're determined to wreck our place in the largest single market the world has ever seen:-

What does Merkel's 'red line' on EU migration rules mean for British politics?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/11/what-does-merkels-red-line-eu-migration-rules-mean-british-politics

Ivan I am trying to understand your last post,
Do not worry i've been supporting P.G who is back and giving GIa what for before posting to myself.
Now surely all Cameron is actually doing, is delaying what he says in public with regards to pulling out of the EU until after the G.E.
By then he thinks he will have bought enough votes to have got back into power for another 5 years and can do what the hell he likes?

I'm convinced that one of the principal ways to defeat UKIP is not to appease it (as Cameron tries to do), but to stand up to it, make the case for our EU membership, and then repeat the message at every opportunity. This poster may be a few months out of date, but its contents are still valid and relevant:-


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1rTkPvIYAAu3ZQ.jpg

Are you saying then Ivan, that Cameron is now fully behind Europe?
something he was not back along?

Europe is about more than the single currency

From an article by Clem Booth:-

“For centuries, the book of European history told tales of violence of increasingly brutal proportions. The last century took this trend to the extreme with episodes of nationalist or tribalist aggression, the shifting of borders, ethnic cleansing and two totalitarian regimes that claimed the lives of millions upon millions of people.

The heart of the EU lies not in laborious procedures, excessive regulations or faltering attempts to deal with the crisis, but in peace, solidarity and collaboration as an alternative to the history of violence written in these and former times.”

For more of this article:-
http://knowledge.allianz.com/?2867/EU-is-more-than-Euro

Hi Ivan.
what actually is the allianz? cos that being who Clem writes for one presumes? I do not know if it is just myself today or what, but for once your post does not sink in, is there any way you could explain it to me simpler please, thanks.

".... nationalist or tribalist aggression, the shifting of borders ...."

How different from our own sceptred isle, stable for hundreds of years.    Hampshire for example, one of the first Saxon shires, recorded in 755 AD and noted in the Domesday book.

No other EU member-country, as currently composed, has existed even for half of that time.

Much appreciated OW, but a strange way of describing it is it not?

Angela Merkel forces David Cameron to retreat from EU migrant cap

From an article by Patrick Wintour and Ian Traynor:-

Cameron has stepped back from a radical plan to cap directly the number of EU migrants entering Britain after an intervention from the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, who warned him she would not tolerate such an incursion into the principle of the free movement of workers.

The decision to row back from the harder rhetoric in a long-awaited speech on immigration disappointed the prime minister’s more Eurosceptic backbenchers, but delighted business leaders. However he still faces the task of persuading 27 other governments to change EU treaties to enshrine discrimination against European citizens working in Britain.

Downing Street officials said they were confident Cameron’s plan to deny EU migrants access to all in-work benefits for four years is negotiable and would deter tens of thousands from moving to Britain. He also announced he would deprive EU migrants in work from accessing social housing for four years, and would not allow unemployed migrants to stay for more than six weeks.

Cameron stepped back from a bolder plan for an annual quota or an emergency brake apparently only following Merkel’s intervention. She said after Cameron’s speech: “The German government has in the past again and again underlined the significance of the principle of the free movement as it is anchored in the EU treaties. It is important that Cameron commits himself to this central pillar of the EU and the single market.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/28/angela-merkel-david-cameron-migrant-cap

There was more about it in the paper today, but today he is insisting that he is going to do it, no benefits that is,put the benefit cap on immigrants for four years.

it's going to be a nightmare

He is only saying it boatlady to curry favour with UKIP, in case they need them for a coalition.

Could Cameron remain Leader of the Tory Party if he proposed a coalition with the very people who had left that party to join UKIP?

YouGov tonight: Lab 34%, Con 32%, UKIP 15%, Lib Dems 7%, Greens 6%.

That poll suggests (a), that Cameron's speech on immigration hasn't boosted his popularity (b), that under our FPTP system, UKIP is not likely to win many seats, and (c), that a small Labour majority is still the most likely outcome next May.

If Labour doesn't get a majority, it will probably be the largest party. In that instance, with the Lib Dems in meltdown, the only feasible coalition (or 'confidence and supply' arrangement) would be between Labour and the SNP. I note that Nicola Sturgeon has said as much but not quite so overtly!  

Ivan did not youGov also do a poll for the Guardian today? which put the Tory party in front?
I do not think you can rely on them at this stage of procedings wait till nearer the election I do believe.

I've always thought it's a shame the Greens don't have more seats - a Labour/Green coalition would be good I think - more ethical for a start

True boatlady, but you have to admit that the greens are never going to get that many seats are they love?

Dunno - I'm seeing some more assertive stuff from them lately on Twitter and elsewhere - perhaps the UKIP effect is encouraging them

Well we can always keep our fingers crossed can we not boatlady

The next administration could well be a coalition of "peripheral" parties in support of a minority Labour government.

Could well be OW,at least it would be better than the Tories and UKIP would it not?

Europe: Idealism or Pragmatism?

Extracts from a blog by Richard Corbett MEP:-

"Some 60 years ago, far-sighted statesman shared an overwhelming desire to put generations of war behind them, and create a better way to resolve differences among peaceful, democratic neighbours. Today, the EU has become in many ways a pragmatic organisation. It’s a co-operative framework where interdependent countries can discuss mutual problems, agree where we need a shared approach, and then thrash out what that approach should be.

The beating heart of modern European pragmatism is the continent-wide single market that we have jointly created. To nurture and strengthen the market, whose foundations were laid by our predecessors, we need to develop and improve rules to protect workers, consumers and the environment, to ensure fair competition, and to eliminate red tape.

When we need to make the case for Europe to an increasingly sceptical public, we must bind day-to-day realities together with the broader narrative of why we need the EU at all and why it outshines the alternatives. The best way to fight the negativity of narrow-minded nationalism is to present an alternative, positive story which shows the myths up for the nonsense they are.

If we take pan-continental peace, democracy and the rule of law for granted, we not only do a disservice to those who fought to achieve it, we also risk losing it. Witness the resurgence of the far-right in many European countries, not least the UK. We descend into narrow self-interest at our peril."

http://ymlp.com/zDVFwj

10 diktats from Brussels that are ruining life in Britain......

(Adapted from an article by David Shariatmadari)

1. Banning perfectly decent light bulbs
The phasing out of the incandescent light bulb, an extremely inefficient technology (95% of the energy they use is given off as heat, rather than light) which had been in use for 130 years. Fluorescent bulbs use 65-80% less energy.

2. Forcing fridge makers to jump through extra hoops
Minimum efficiency requirements laid down in 1996 have resulted in models on sale today using 27% of the energy of their 20-year-old counterparts.

3. Placing restrictions on useful chemicals like organophosphate pesticides, mercury compounds and cadmium compounds

4. Stopping cosmetic companies from using animals to make sure their products are safe
A ban on testing finished cosmetic products was enacted in 2004, and the testing of ingredients has been banned since 2009.

5. Forcing airlines to help passengers when things go wrong
Rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of being denied boarding, cancellation or long delays. They are entitled to food, communication and possibly an overnight stay depending on the length of the delay. If luggage is lost, damaged or delayed passengers can claim and unclear pricing online is prohibited – all taxes and charges must be visible from the start.

6. Riding roughshod over farmers’ right to spray neonicotinoid insecticides without restrictions, which many zoologists believe are implicated in the decline of bee populations

7. Limiting the freedom of toymakers to coat their products in carcinogenic substances

8. Stopping banks making extra money on purchases made using debit or credit cards

9. Forcing companies to treat employees the same, regardless of gender, race, age, sexual orientation or disability

10. Giving us gratuitous access to foreign health systems
The European health insurance card, available to all EU citizens, allows access to state-provided healthcare under the same conditions and at the same cost as residents in all 28 member states of the EU as well as Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/19/10-diktats-from-brussels-that-are-ruining-life-in-britain

The bastards!!

No wonder that nice Mr Farage (Times' Briton of the Year) hates them so!!

Let us all at once hurry to Brussels and tear down their mad empire!!

Nice Mr Farage boatlady?