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The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

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Post by witchfinder Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO  and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright  Very Happy, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.
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Post by stuart torr Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:09 pm

Nice Mr Farage boatlady? Laughing

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Post by oftenwrong Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:26 pm

Wikipedia has the last word again:

Irony (from Ancient Greek εἰρωνεία (eirōneía), meaning "dissimulation, feigned ignorance"[1]), in its broadest sense, is a rhetorical device, literary technique, or event characterized by an incongruity, or contrast, between what the expectations of a situation are and what is really the case, with a third element, that defines that what is really the case is ironic because of the situation that led to it. Irony may be divided into categories such as: verbal, dramatic, and situational.
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Post by boatlady Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:44 pm

lol! sunny
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Post by stuart torr Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:16 pm

????? scratch
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Post by Ivan Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:13 pm

boatlady wrote:-
that nice Mr Farage (Times' Briton of the Year)
Hardly surprising, when Rupert Murdoch is anti-EU (because he thinks its proposed competition laws might clip his wings), and when Rupert Murdoch owns 'The Times'.  Rolling Eyes

Nevertheless, it's still quite chilling. Look who 'Time' magazine chose as its 'man of the year' in 1938:-

The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1) - Page 13 B54yphEIYAI45p_
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B54yphEIYAI45p_.jpg
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Post by boatlady Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:43 pm

Feels like we're going back to the 1930's - having failed to learn the lessons of history are we to be condemned to repeat them for all time, I wonder?
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Post by oftenwrong Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:13 pm

Ivan wrote:
boatlady wrote:-
that nice Mr Farage (Times' Briton of the Year)
Hardly surprising....

With Mr. Farage portrayable as reincarnation of Oswald Mosley, not in the least surprising.
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Post by stuart torr Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:37 am

Farage supporters saying women should not have the vote in todays mirror newspaper, and supporting Adolf too bloody disgusting.
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Post by patakace Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:39 am

Will the EU -- as it is presently defined ---still exist in three years ?
I think it will be a miracle if it lasts even half that time .
How long before the first major EU bank goes under?
Is it Evens Greece , 13-8 Italy and and 2-1 France ?
In the next two months 7-4 and within 6 months 4-5 ?
Then we can perhaps see some pragmatic right wing policies being introduced --- immigration and economic primarily .



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Post by boatlady Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:10 am

Do you have any basis for these statements, or are they just empty rhetoric?
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Post by patakace Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:12 pm

Keep abreast of world news and you will see that a large number of experts and highly informed commentators have the same views .
However , I asked two questions and did not simply make dogmatic statements .
I then demonstrated my personal views through examples / forecast scenarios .
Perhaps we can compare actual bank results in 6 months and on the wider front in around 18 months .



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Post by boatlady Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:26 pm

Not discussion, this - if you want to make assertions based on the opinions of 'highly informed commentators' perhaps you would do well at least to name them - otherwise you are just making empty noise, as far ads I can see.

If your comments are based on your own opinions and/or life experience, perhaps you could state as much - otherwise you may find no-one will take you very seriously
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Post by stuart torr Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:31 pm

True boatlady very true.
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Post by patakace Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:46 pm

boatlady wrote:Feels like we're going back to the 1930's - having failed to learn the lessons of history are we to be condemned to repeat them for all time, I wonder?

A bit like this post then ?
One of hundreds from this forum I could use as examples .
Perhaps , and unfortunately , my post has not got a "Left incline" .

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Post by stuart torr Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:54 pm

Well the forum does say before registering, that it is a left inclined forum patacake.
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Post by Ivan Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:08 pm

This forum is 'left-inclined' in the hope of helping to redress, if only in a very small way, the overwhelmingly right-wing media which undermines our democracy by distorting the information available to people. However, in the interests of free speech, anyone who is prepared to abide by the forum rules is welcome to post here, although their views are likely to be taken more seriously if they are supported by credible sources (which, by definition, excludes 'The Sun' and 'The Daily Mail').

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t18-posting-rules

The EU is one such topic where the public has been constantly fed negative and often misleading propaganda, probably because it suits press barons who fear being subjected to tighter regulations concerning their behaviour and their share of media ownership.
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Post by patakace Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:23 pm

stuart torr wrote:Well the forum does say before registering, that it is a left inclined forum patacake.

I am not complaining .Just reminding those who might need reminding of prevailing Forum dynamics
Any way , it is far more fulfilling to work with lost souls than those that have already been saved !
Laughing
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Post by patakace Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:30 pm

Ivan wrote:-
The EU is one such topic where the public has been constantly fed negative and often misleading propaganda, probably because it suits press barons who fear being subjected to tighter regulations concerning their behaviour and their share of media ownership.
Other considerations might apply many times more strongly .
For example ,
A pleasure in reporting those matters where they feel very strongly . Plus an interest in the whole  truth in a very complex matter  .
Or do you hold to the theory that anti EU sentiment is in the hands of only  the flippant , stupid  and those that are entirely selfish and greedy ?
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Post by stuart torr Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:42 pm

Such arrogance from a member of the losing side in the elections patacake.
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Post by patakace Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:12 pm

stuart torr wrote:Such arrogance from a member of the losing side in the elections patacake.

I voted UKIP . So you got that completely wrong .
I will vote Tory in May only in the unlikely event of Labour being in spitting distance of upsetting us .


Why guess when asking nicely will get you the right answer and avoid you feeling silly .
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Post by stuart torr Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:14 pm

You are the one looking silly mrs patacake, you said you were a tory so it will be the losing side in the May elections.
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Post by Ivan Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:01 pm

patakace wrote:-
Or do you hold to the theory that anti EU sentiment is in the hands of only the flippant, stupid  and those that are entirely selfish and greedy?
Not at all. One of my favourite politicians, the late Tony Benn, was strongly opposed to the EU. There are some on the left who see the EU as a businessmen’s club and a vehicle for promoting austerity. On the other hand, there are plenty on the left – myself included – who see the EU as a safeguard for the rights of workers, along with their jobs in the biggest free trade area the world has ever seen. Few people would argue that the EU needs reforming, but you only achieve that by being at the heart of it and showing total commitment to it, not by stamping one foot and putting the other one in a half-open exit door.
an interest in the whole  truth in a very complex matter
If the press barons and their lackeys had any interest in the truth, they wouldn’t peddle bullshit such as this:-

Lie - “Brits would pay more for their Sunday roast beef.” ('Daily Express', June 2013)

Lie - “British car number plates could be axed by a vote in the European Parliament next week.” ('Daily Express', April 2014)

Lie – reported in August 2013 that many tractor drivers would only be able to work for half an hour a day, to comply with new limits on vibrations.

Lie - EU rules were making it impossible to remove bats from ancient buildings.

Lie – ‘The Daily Mail’ claimed on 16 August 2013 that EU regulations will force householders to use five bins for recycling. If you’ll excuse the pun, that was complete rubbish.

Lie - the EU is forcing the UK to abolish national birth and death certificates and replace them with EU-branded ones.

A supposed ban on 'Milk of Magnesia' reported in July 2013 never existed.

In August 2013, ‘The Sunday Times’ claimed that new rules would mean ‘Made In Britain’ tags would have to be removed from high-quality British products made with imported raw materials, such as Italian leather or New Zealand wool. ‘The Sunday Times’ had the good grace to publish a rebuttal of this story on 2 September, but at around the same time it was recycled again by ‘The Daily Mail’.

‘The Sun’ claimed on 8 August 2013 that a “barmy EU rule which forces mechanics to carry out specialist driving training is to be scrapped”. Such a rule had indeed been in force in the UK, but it had never been an EU one.
 
Another lie was that 'bureaucrats' were planning to impose 'intelligent speed adaptation' (ISA) technology in cars so that drivers could no longer exceed the speed limit. A nice story, but one problem with it: there simply is no such proposal and none is planned. All of the journalists concerned were clearly told this, but many chose to ignore such inconvenient information.

Some parts of the media continue to blame the EU for decisions taken by the European Court of Human Rights – which is not an EU body but a Council of Europe one.

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/silly-season-top-ten-and-more-of-misleading-eu-media-stories/
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Post by stuart torr Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:53 pm

Many thanks Ivan, for bringing all on the forum up to date with the bullshit that is being pedaled around by the Tory media, the big question is basically, just why do they do it?
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Post by patakace Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:22 am

stuart torr wrote:You are the one looking silly mrs patacake, you said you were a tory so it will be the losing side in the May elections.

Whilst I am Tory for basic pragmatic considerations ---- mainly , first produce cash and assets before spending them ------ I also am an intelligent person and not a brainless sheep .
That is , I vote tactically , as and when it is required .
Don't you ?
No .
How quaint .
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Post by patakace Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:32 am

Ivan wrote:


Not at all. One of my favourite politicians, the late Tony Benn, was strongly opposed to the EU. etc

I enjoyed your light hearted response .
However the sign posts suggest that the EU as we now know it is in its death throes .
Do you watch the US Dollar and Euro exchange rate ?
Why is it that the rest of the financial part of the planet have crossed the EU of its shopping list ?
Once Greece exits and we have full transparency over Italy and France , we will see a huge rush to abandon ship .
Federations based on a single currency do not work .
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Post by Ivan Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:57 am

patakace wrote:-
Federations based on a single currency do not work
As I’m sure you know, a federation is a union of partially self-governing states under a central government. The most obvious example is the USA, and that has worked well enough with everyone using the dollar. Germany is a federal republic; before unification and the advent of the euro, West Germany managed quite successfully with all its states using the Deutschmark.

I don’t see the EU as a federation yet, even though UKIP tries to argue that 75% of our laws originate from it. The House of Commons Library originally said the figure was 9.1%, but later updated that to 15%, an estimate which was near enough supported by a German study in 2012. It’s difficult to quantify, and too many people have an axe to grind and either want to exaggerate the figure or underestimate it, according to their prejudices.

http://www.jcm.org.uk/blog/2009/06/what-percentage-of-laws-come-from-the-eu/

Where I think the EU went wrong was in adopting the euro, and having the European Central Bank determine interest rates, without seeking full political union first. And I disagree with your hunch that the EU is going to collapse at any time soon. It’s too big a project, and there are too many vested interests, for it to be allowed to fail.

I shouldn’t read too much into current exchange rates; in 1984, the pound fell to parity with the dollar, but it picked up again and we’re all still here!
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Post by patakace Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:10 pm

This time I believe with others that we are on the verge of something which will at least match the destruction of the great depression .

I mentioned Exchange Rate just as a quick untaxing example .
I , on the other hand , look at many indicators on a daily basis ( 20 ? ) before reading detail releases from America , Russia/ Ukraine ( my specialist area ) and the mid East .
My grasp of what is going on is good --- admittedly a smug under statement .
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Post by boatlady Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:15 pm

But you apparently never have a link to post to back up your statements ?

Which, in my book, makes them opinions - opinions that I for one don't share
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Post by patakace Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:28 pm

Of course they are opinions.
I am not going to waste too much of my time defending them when people show me that their world view is fixed and unlikely to change jut because of a few super tweets .
I prefer the dripping tap approach to attempted verbal bombing .
Anyhow what links do you want from my previous post ?
Don't you know how to check on Stats and Economic indicators , nationally distributed news releases and special interest sites like Kavkaz , Debka , Jamestown and Al Jazeera ?
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Post by stuart torr Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:56 pm

Oh mrs patacake, only on here to cause trouble are you not? my guess in the first place. Laughing Laughing
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Post by patakace Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:16 pm

It's not the first time that I have noticed how wrong you get matters .
You are right though about all Forums having regular trouble makers .
They invariably are those who cannot stand their opinions and assumptions being upset .
Then they start to get personally abusive and really angry .Why do you think that happens , Stuart ?
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Post by patakace Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:32 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30829917

Why have the Swiss walked out from the Euro Cap today?
If they have wind that the ECB is about to torpedo the Eurozone with their version of Quantitative Easing , the game is up .
Step one of , " How to dismantle the EU " .
Except they have no inkling if it . Chortle .
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Post by stuart torr Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:55 pm

You tell me mrs patacake?
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Post by patakace Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:10 pm

It's what is known as a rhetorical question , Stuart !
But I would expect QE from the EU --- printing more imaginary money as their only solution to saving Greece and banks in general ( far worse a position than 2008).
Will Merkel agree to this ? And , almost regardless , will she allow herself to try and convince her electorate to throw away billions more?
Hopefully Germany will resist . Then , Greece will fall out of the EU following their imminent internal election and the EU break up will commence .
The $ US will then reach new short term highs possibly before its own crash .
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Post by oftenwrong Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:17 pm

Great questions, patakace, but what are your answers?
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Post by stuart torr Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:07 pm

Red cherries I love OW, WHAT IS YOUR TASTE IN CHERRIES? male or female ones. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Post by patakace Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:16 am

oftenwrong wrote:Great questions, patakace, but what are your answers?

Get out of the Eurozone as fast as you can run ( obviously we have made that literal step) .
The EU , which is effectively the Eurozone less the UK , is finished financially .
The US knows that and the smartest people -- the Swiss-- are actually now sending out the same message .
They are willing to blunt their export strength , cheapen imports which risks deflation , rather than link themselves to a sinking ship .
Note;they are not going to admit to that publicly and I would be surprised if mainstream media sources let the cat out of the bag !

When the Brussel Twerps announce QE in the form of EU Bonds , the Euro will plunge to new calamitous depths and the area will be increasingly seen as toxic by the rest of the developed world .
Do you really want to have to tell your children that you were one of those who backed the most distorted and criminalised Western idea of the 20 th century ?
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Post by oftenwrong Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:55 pm

patakace wrote:Do you really want to have to tell your children that you were  one of those who backed the most distorted and criminalised Western idea of the 20 th century ?

.... Stop living in the past and run a Hope Service based on priorities that are businesslike and affordable .


Does anyone want to tell their children, "If you fall ill you're on your own" ?
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Post by stuart torr Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:07 pm

No they do not do they OW? OR they would only worry about you would they not?
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Post by patakace Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:54 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Does anyone want to tell their children, "If you fall ill you're on your own" ?
Emotive twaddle peddled by rather nasty people .
The same help that is presently  given to  needy and genuinely disadvantaged people will always apply .
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Post by stuart torr Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:19 pm

Who are those nasty people to which you refer patakace?
Can you explain your next line properly please?
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